MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, technology and social movement. Those topics coming together in a conference taking place here this week. We'll talk about that. But first, four years after he was elected mayor and six months after he lost his re-election bid, D.C. Mayor Vincent Gray reportedly turned down a plea deal in the ongoing investigation of his 2010 campaign to lead the District. A report in The Washington Post says federal prosecutors proposed in mid-September that Gray plead guilty to a single felony count of wrongdoing.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIBut his lawyer, Robert Bennett, turned down the offer and said Gray would not plead guilty to anything. Joining us to discuss the ongoing investigation of Gray's campaign and the implications of the plea offer is Mike DeBonis, The Washington Post reporter who broke the story. He joins us by phone from the Wilson Building. Mike DeBonis, thank you for joining us.

MR. MIKE DEBONISHey, Kojo. Thanks for having me.

NNAMDIYou, too, can join the conversation by calling 800-433-8850. How do you think the investigation of Mayor Gray's 2010 campaign will play out? What is your informed speculation? 800-433-8850. You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Mike, you reported that the mayor turned down a proposal that he plead guilty to one felony count in connection with his 2010 election campaign. What do you know about the specificity of that offer and the mayor's response to it?

DEBONISWell, we don't know what specific charge was offered. I don't -- I'm told that there wasn't a talk of the specific charge. There was talk that it would be a felony, it would be a single charge. We know that from the people I've talked to who were familiar with how this campaign has gone, they seem to be -- have been building a conspiracy case, where they would, you know ostensibly try and make the case that the mayor had paid -- had taken acts that could be seen as conspiring to re-subvert campaign finance laws -- break campaign finance laws. But we don't know that that specific charge was being contemplated. But that is what other, you know, certain other people involved in this investigation have pleaded to.

DEBONISIt’s a serious charge. It would carry the definite possibility of jail time, though I don't believe that that was discussed in these preliminary talks. But the upshot was, is that the mayor's lawyer, Robert Bennett, made clear to the prosecutors that the mayor is not interested in taking a plea.

NNAMDIWhy, as a reporter, to you, is it significant that the U.S. Attorney's office proposed a plea deal?

DEBONISWell, look at all the other six people who have been charged in this case have done so in the confines of a plea deal. No one has, as of yet, said, indict me, I'm going to trial. I don't believe you can prove your case against me. The, you know, the fact that they had made this offer indicates that they were at a point -- that the prosecutors believed that they were at a point where they're at the end of the road. They have conducted their investigation. They have enough to charge the mayor, who everyone involved in this case believes is the ultimate target of this investigation. And that they're ready to proceed with what they have.

DEBONISSo there's not a way, you know, at this point, you know, we have reason to believe that there's no one else left in the dragnet -- for the dragnet to pull up except for Mayor Gray.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is our number. Our guest is Mike DeBonis. He's a reporter for The Washington Post. He broke the story about D.C. Mayor Vincent Gray rejecting a plea deal from the U.S. Attorney's Office this past September. If you're interested in commenting or have a question, call us at 800-433-8850. How do you think this will play out? How does the ongoing investigation affect people's impressions of the District of Columbia and its government? 800-433-8850. Mike, for listeners who may still be unclear about what happened inside Mayor Gray's 2010 campaign that may have been illegal, remind us about the so-called shadow campaign and the individuals who have already entered guilty pleas to federal crimes related to that campaign.

DEBONISSure. When we talk about a shadow campaign, we're talking about a fairly large amount of unreported expenditure -- campaign expenditures being made outside of the confines of the official Gray campaign. We're talking about $650,000, which in the context of a D.C. Mayoral Campaign that's usually waged for a couple million dollars, I believe, Mayor Gray's campaign came in, what was reported, at well under $3 million. That's a very significant amount of money. And what we have learned through some of the previous prosecutions in this case is that this, quote-unquote, "shadow campaign" was funded by Jeffrey Thompson, the businessman who's become very close to a household name among -- in D.C. politics.

NNAMDIMm-hmm.

DEBONISHe's a gentleman who owned a company who once held the single largest government contract in the city, which is for a firm that manages health care for low-income residents. Two of the other people who have pleaded guilty in this investigation -- Jeanne Clarke Harris and Vernon Hawkins -- are people who were close associates of Gray. And they were really charged with executing this whole scheme, taking the money that Thompson -- the checks that Thompson wrote and turning that into campaign activities, whether it's signs and t-shirts and, you know, things like that or, you know, basically making this whole scenario play out.

DEBONISWell, there's also been some other folks involved. One of them is Mark Long. He was the last person to enter a guilty plea back in September.

NNAMDIHe was the mayor's campaign driver, right?

DEBONISHe was the campaign driver. He was sort of the chauffer, the body man. He was -- I think that a lot of people saw that as significant because he was around the mayor a lot. And he knew where he was and who he was meeting with. And even if he wasn't privy to conversations, he, you know, at least knows who he talked to and when.

NNAMDISo it's fair to conclude that the focus is on Mayor Gray. You reported that investigators have re-interviewed witnesses, including those who had agreed to cooperate as part of their own plea deal. What does that indicate to you?

DEBONISI mean, they want to nail down to the greatest extent possible what folks are willing to testify. And they want to get as much on the record and as much down as they can, especially when they go into that Grand Jury room. You know, prosecutors often talk about locking-in testimony, getting witnesses on the record in front of a Grand Jury, where they are testifying under the penalty of perjury and can't, after that, change their testimony without sanction from a court. They can be threatened with perjury, so on and so forth. So getting the (word?) and getting them to be as expansive as possible when they go into that jury room is typically important to prosecutors.

DEBONISAnd I think from what's -- the various people who are involved in this case are seeing, that this is what's happening right now. But we don't know at this point whether witnesses have gone before a Grand Jury, at what point things are in that process.

NNAMDIHere is Dave in Washington, D.C. Dave, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DAVEYeah. Good afternoon, Kojo and Mike. I had a question. Ron Machen always has a flair, as U.S. attorney, for many things. But I was wondering if you could comment on his handling of this? Certainly, he delayed the mayor's -- it appears he delayed the mayor's case till the very end. And I was wondering if you could comment on both the timing of the mayor's indictment and how political you thought that was? And then just how you feel his office has handled this case?

NNAMDIWell, the mayor has not been indicted. So we cannot yet talk about the timing.

DAVEOh, I'm sorry. The mayor was...

NNAMDIOf the mayor's indictment, there was...

DEBONISI know what Dave's talking about...

NNAMDII know that, too.

DEBONIS...which is your -- which is the plea deal with Jeffrey Thompson, which happened two weeks before the Democratic Primary, in which Mayor Gray was running. And, you know, Ron -- the U.S. Attorney Ron Machen took a great deal of criticism for the fact that that seemed to have some effect on the race. If you ask Mayor Gray to this day and his campaign folks, they believe that that was decisive. That they had it -- they could have won that race before those -- before the Jeffrey Thompson charges were filed and it was put out -- it was aired in federal court that the mayor knew about...

NNAMDINot only was it aired in federal court at the time of the Jeffrey Thompson plea deal, but the judge specifically asked Jeffrey Thompson to name...

DEBONISThat's right.

NNAMDI...who the individual was that was being identified by a letter in court.

DEBONISRight. And, you know, basically, you know, that resulted in a headline -- a banner headline in The Washington Post that said prosecutors say Gray knew. And that what was laid out. You know, there was a press conference that day. It was -- I believe it was March 15, somewhere thereabouts. And Ron Machen himself said, you know, we're coming for you. He didn't say Gray's name in particular. But, you know, no one had any doubt who he was talking about.

NNAMDIAnd as you pointed out, that was in March. You compared the timing of this investigation to that of Virginia Governor Robert McDonnell who was indicted in mid-January, less than two weeks after his successor was inaugurated.

DEBONISRight.

NNAMDIWhat does the U.S. Attorney in this case, Ronald Machen, say about when this case investigation could play out?

DEBONISWell, they're -- they're not saying anything right now. You know, the official line is, as it has always been, which is the investigation is ongoing and we'll -- we bring charges when charges are ready. That is what Ron Machen said in March, was the last time he stood before a podium and answered questions about this. I can say that I know that Mayor Gray's lawyer, Robert Bennett, asked the prosecutor on the case, we believe it's in the best interests of everyone involved, if an indictment is returned, it not be returned until after the Mayor is out of office -- he leaves on January 2 -- in order to facilitate an orderly transition of power and not needlessly disrupt the workings of city government.

DEBONISI have no -- I've got no indication that, you know, whether that request has been treated with respect or not. The indications I've gotten is that they seem to, you know, be on a track to possibly indict him before then. But what you saw happen in the McDonnell case is that the defense team for Governor McDonnell basically pulled every lever available to them, including appealing within the Justice Department, up to the head honchos. In fact, they went all the way to the deputy attorney general, the second-ranking law-enforcement official in the United States, and made the case. What's -- try -- we don't think that there's enough here for an indictment. And if there is an indictment, maybe you should hold off on this.

DEBONISAnd, you know, that succeeded. And ultimately, delaying that indictment until a couple weeks after Bob McDonnell left office.

NNAMDIWell, I think I know how Mayor Gray's supporters would answer this question, and I think frankly I know how you would answer this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Mayor Gray lost his bid for re-election in the Democratic primary in April to then councilmember and now Mayor Elect Muriel Bowser. How do you think the shadow of the ongoing investigation affected this year's mayor's race?

DEBONISYou know, there's no doubt it had an effect. Now, did the Thompson indictment itself and the timing of it, was that decisive in making Muriel Bowser the Democratic nominee and later the mayor elect? I don't know. I think that, you know, my reading of the polling at that time showed, you know, to my eyes and our polling analysts show that, you know, Mayor Gray had an uphill battle even before Jeffrey Thompson pleaded guilty. That certainly didn't make it any easier.

DEBONISBut there was -- his support was stuck throughout this campaign period at about 30 percent. He ended up getting a little over 30 percent. Muriel Bowser got quite a bit more. She ended up in the mid 40's. And I think that there was a dynamic sort of playing out where there were a lot of voters even before Jeffrey Thompson pleads guilty that wanted -- were in a sort of anyone-but-Gray mindset.

DEBONISBut that was very much due to the investigative revelations that we'd seen aired before that going back to the summer of 2012 when we first heard about the shadow campaign, and even before that when we're talking about Sulaimon Brown getting paid off, you know, in the -- even in the earliest months of his mayoral administration.

DEBONISSo, you know, all of these investigative revelations have chipped away at his political viability, you know, his credibility. I don't know that the Thompson plea alone is responsible for that but I think that you look at his mayoralty as a whole, you know, there's nothing else you can point to that really has been a turnoff for people, that's been divisive, that's been -- there's been nothing going on in the city that has alienated people to the degree that this has.

NNAMDIMike Debonis. He's a reporter for the Washington Post, like the rest of us, waiting for the other shoe to fall. Mike Debonis, thank you very much for joining us.

DEBONISThanks, Kojo.

NNAMDIWe're going to take a short break. When we come back, technology and social movements. Those topics coming together in a conference taking place here this week. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.