MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, it's Your Turn to talk about the news or anything else on your mind. But first, it sounds straight out of the Fox TV show "Cops," but this week, more than 160 district police officers began wearing body cameras on patrol. The devices are part of a $1 million pilot program that will culminate in three years with all of the district's officers sporting the video equipment.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIWhile police say cameras enhance safety and make investigations easier, civil liberties advocates are raising practical and legal questions about them. Should we all assume we're being recorded if we have encounters with police? And who has access to the video?

MR. KOJO NNAMDIThere are questions coming across the desk of Metropolitan Police Chief Cathy Lanier this month, along with new applications for concealed guns. And then of course there's her day job of keeping the city safe. Chief Lanier joins us by telephone. Cathy Lanier, thank you so much for joining us.

CHIEF CATHY LANIERWow, what a great introduction. You make my job sound so easy, Kojo.

NNAMDIWell, is it a difficult job to do?

LANIERSome days are better than others, sir.

NNAMDIChief Lanier, what are you hearing from your officers after deploying these devices yesterday?

LANIERSo our first day yesterday, well, you know, with the -- the vast majority of the officers want to wear their cameras, so really no technical issues yesterday. They got some training to use the cameras. For the first rollout yesterday went very smoothly. I think we had one issue with a battery running a little short before the end of the tour. So that's one of the reasons why we're testing these things, so many different varieties. We're testing five different models right now. But other than that, it was a smooth day.

NNAMDIWere the cameras also deployed with your school security officers this week or will that rollout come later?

LANIERNo. We started out in the 5th district yesterday and we're rolling out to the other districts between today, tomorrow and hopefully we'll get them all out by the end of the second shift on Friday.

NNAMDIIf you have questions for D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier, give us a call at 800-433-8850. Is it your opinion that body cameras make police interactions with the public safer? Do you think body cameras violate civil liberties? Give us a call, 800-433-8850. Send email to kojo@wamu.org or shoot us a tweet @kojoshow. This is a $1 million pilot program and your officers are trying out five models of cameras from ones that perch on glasses to collars to shirts.

NNAMDIHave you encountered -- you did mention one technical glitch yesterday but are there any clear preferences for one model over another?

LANIERNot yet. I mean, because each of the testing officers are going to -- they're going to test each individual model themselves. So every officer that's testing will test all five models. And then that way we can get, you know, feedback from all of the officers involved on every model. So we really won't know that until the end of the first few months. But there's other things we're testing too. It's not just comfort and, you know, durability. It's on, you know, the quality of the video, the ease of which we can download that video, operations of the system. You know, so there's about ten different things that we're testing to determine which ones we're going to go with.

NNAMDIAfter the violence in Ferguson, Mo. police there adopted these cameras and more than 1,000 precincts around the country now use them. How do you expect these cameras to modify behavior by both citizens who encounter police and officers themselves?

LANIERWell, we've been closely tracking the body cameras for quite some time and actually evaluating our implementation for about 18 months. So we've talked to police departments, about 27 different police departments that have rolled the cameras out and used them over the past several years. And the technology's gotten better and better but across the board every single agency that has used these cameras said that citizen complaints against police dropped roughly 80 percent and that officers use of force went down 50 to 60 percent. So that's win-win for everybody as far as I'm concerned.

NNAMDIYeah, they've been used in a few nearby jurisdictions, Laurel, Cheverly, New Carrollton using them. Anything particular coming out of that usage that may be applicable to the District of Columbia?

LANIERWell, the biggest challenge for us is a lot of small agencies have rolled them out. And it's a lot more challenging for an agency my size. The best use of the camera -- the easiest way to roll these things out is have them assigned to individuals. You have, you know, docking stations, charging stations. You've got to tag metadata. So for a small agency it's not so difficult.

LANIERBut when you've got, you know, 4,000 officers, you know, the cameras have to be shared. So they have to be deployed by shift. They can't be deployed by person. You have to make sure that they -- the technology is available for them to tag metadata and to download and, you know, a lot of really technical stuff. So that's why I say our rollout's going to be, you know, very slow and methodical but we're going to be one of the largest agencies with this technology. So it's a huge undertaking for us, I'll tell you that. It is a big undertaking.

NNAMDIIn case you're just joining us, our guest is Cathy Lanier, Chief of the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia. We're taking your calls at 800-433-8850. If you go to our website kojoshow.org you'll see a link there to a video taken by a police body camera in Laurel, Md. last year showing the arrest of a woman who was stopped for a DUI, then fled police and was eventually subdued after she crashed her car.

NNAMDIBut Chief Lanier, a case in Salt Lake City last week was one of the first where a case has relied on body cam evidence to determine whether an officer-involved shooting is justified. In that case the officers was ruled to be justified in his actions but the unarmed man he shot died though. Obviously this is a tragic case, but is that the kind of clarity you're hoping that body cameras can produce in particularly high-stress situations?

LANIEROh, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of value in every interaction of having the ability to have an independent record, you know, an independent unbiased record. And it doesn't make any difference what the scenario is, certainly in high-stress scenarios. Everybody that observes an incident is going to have slightly different versions of what happened and opinions of, you know, kind of the tone of those incidents. Looking at a video helps us to clarify and also can be used for a training tool later on. And so I think there's just -- again, it's going to be win-win for everybody.

NNAMDIThere's been some public confusion about when these cameras are turned on and when they're turned off. What is the policy?

LANIERSo the officers are required to activate the cameras as soon as they are dispatched a call or given an assignment. So as soon as that assignment comes in they would activate the camera. If they're making a traffic stop, when they activate the lights, before they even get out of the car they would activate the camera.

LANIERSo as soon as an activity -- a police-involved activity is initiated, they have to activate. And they can't turn it off until that police activity is done and they're clearing the scene. So it will remain on if there is an arrest. It will remain on if there is, you know, contact or interaction going on that's self-initiated or dispatch from a call for service.

NNAMDIOnto the phones. Here is Ralph in Washington, D.C. Ralph, you're on the phone. Go ahead -- on the air. Go ahead, please.

RALPHThanks. I love calling "The Kojo Nnamdi Show." Anyway -- I had to get you to it. You know, I think the camera's a great thing. The numbers she said is not 80 percent. It's 87 percent, though. The number of complaints dropped nearly one-tenth of what they were before. That shows that a lot of abuse was going on. The question I got is, you know, are you going to put anything in the plans, anything where, you know, oh, the camera just happened to fail and the victim just happened to get shot in the back. We just don't have a record of it anymore. Are you going to get rid of those people...

NNAMDIRalph, rather than trying to be smart, I will interpret your question in a different way. Chief Lanier...

LANIERI got it. I got it, Kojo.

NNAMDIChief Lanier, what actually happens if something goes wrong with the camera or it happens to be lost in a stress situation?

LANIERWell, so obviously, I mean, that's part of the policy and we, you know, have looked at -- and the technology plays into that as well. So the cameras -- the policy is very clear that the cameras would not be deactivated during an interaction. And certainly, if there was a scenario like what Ralph described, you know, obviously there would be serious implications for the officer involved. And it just so happened to get cut off just before a use of force of that nature.

LANIERAnd so that would -- you know, that would start the whole initiation of the investigation off on a bad food for the officer because he's already in violation of policy. So, you know, I think we've got strong policies in place and we just have to hold people accountable. I mean, the bottom line is that we don't have cameras right now -- I mean, up until now. Now we will. So, you know, we've just got to hold people accountable, you know, within the policy.

NNAMDIRalph, thank you for your call. What should we expect, Chief Lanier, if we encounter an officer or if we're stopped by one? Should we automatically assume that the interaction is being recorded?

LANIERThe officer will tell the person that they're interacting with that they are wearing a camera. So as part of the initiation, as soon as they make contact with someone they'll notify you that they're wearing a camera unless it's a crisis scenario. There may be something where they jump out in a, you know, high-stress situation, activate the camera where they haven't had an opportunity. But in most cases they will notify the person that they are being recorded.

NNAMDIIf an officer steps into your home, can you request that the camera be turned off?

LANIERSo as long as the officer is in a place where he is legally authorized to be, the cameras will remain on. There are circumstances where a request would be honored for a camera to be deactivated. They're limited in scope so places where there are expectations of privacy obviously, locker rooms, restrooms, things like that, if we are talking to somebody who is an informant or somebody who is providing information they wish to remain anonymous. So there are some small opportunities for us to turn off the camera. But in general we would not deactivate a camera simply because it was requested, as long as the officer's there legally.

NNAMDIHere is E. W. in Cheverly, Md. E. W., you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

E. W.Hello, Kojo. Great show. First of all, I'd like to say that Chief, you've done a good job up to now. But on this issue I don't think it should be left up to the department or the officer as to when the cameras are on because I think we're going to always deal with the issue of when they're off at inopportune times. And if there's cameras throughout the city and wherever we go running 24/7, I don't think the technology is so far behind that we cannot come up with cameras that would be feasible to be on whenever the officer is on their shift.

E. W.And as far as asking -- or letting the person know when you interact with them that the camera's on, I mean, we're not given that privilege with camera lights that take our picture all the time. So why is that so important now that the officer let them know? We know that we're being recorded when we go through a light. Why is it so important that the officer let the person know? Why can't it just be some expectation that the law puts forth? But that's just my question and comment. I will...

NNAMDIWell, before you go, E. W., you also seem to be suggesting that the camera should be turned on when the officer reports for duty and stay on until the officer leaves duty for, I guess, a period shift of eight hours. Are you suggesting that an officer should be monitored for eight hours by a camera while he or she is on the job?

W.Absolutely because throughout the city, and including my job, cameras are on whenever I get there, whenever I leave. And, yes, I'm absolutely doing...

NNAMDIWell, let's see how -- Chief Lanier?

LANIERWell, I mean, the fact that there's cameras everywhere, we have very, very few interactions that aren't recorded by some camera somewhere is absolutely true. And we've said that all along. We're kind of the last people to get cameras. But in terms of leaving the camera on throughout an entire shift, I mean, you certainly don't want a camera on in places that I described like, you know, an expectation of privacy. The officer has to have the ability to activate a camera because you don't want to have the camera on when they're going into the restroom. You don't want to have a camera on...

LANIERIn addition to the privacy issues -- and this is best practice, we work with privacy attorneys, the ACLU and many others on this -- in addition to that this video -- part of the biggest expense of this system is the ability to store video and retrieve the video that you need when it's involved in a complaint or a criminal case and all that other stuff. So to just leave cameras running through an entire shift would violate some privacy laws and issues. And it would be overtly expensive and difficult to manage. So it just doesn't make sense.

NNAMDII'll tell you about one instance in which an officer may have to make a discretionary call, what's your response to those who say these cameras might discourage some people from approaching officers with tips or with concerns?

LANIERThere are -- and that's one of the situations I described earlier. If we have a person who is trying to pass along information to an officer and wants to be anonymous, that is an opportunity for an officer to deactivate the camera on request.

NNAMDIOn the flipside of this issue, can you remind us about whether citizens are allowed to film police officers doing their jobs? There was some controversy about that earlier this month or early last month when an officers interfered with a Washington Post editor who was videotaping an arrest.

LANIERYes, absolutely. And, you know, we're videotaped all the time. I mean, it happens -- you know, even when I was an officer on the street and, you know, 15, 20 years ago, I mean, there's always cameras -- people videotape us all the time. And it is perfectly legal to videotape law enforcement activity in public space. You know, there's no restrictions on what you can video. It's not -- we can't seize your camera because you're taking video. We can't, you know, demand its evidence. If there is something that we believe that you have videotaped that would be evidentiary nature in a case, then we can get subpoenas and request, you know, that video.

NNAMDIJust a couple more. Here's Steven in Washington, D.C. Steven, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

STEVENThank you. Chief Lanier, I want to compliment you. I think you're doing a really great job. And the communication level between citizens and the police I think have never been better. I live in District 3 and you folks have set up a really nice list there that you can subscribe to and you get daily reports. And I find them very excellent. It covers a whole host of issues. And the few times that I've actually sent a post, I've gotten either a call back or an email back from the specific officer. And I'm very impressed by that. And I was just wondering, do you have that system in place within the city?

NNAMDIIn other districts?

LANIERYeah, so we have list serves and also in patrol districts. I monitor all seven. I see them all in my handheld device so I watch them all. And, you know, I require my managers on duty 24 hours a day to post and respond to posts from community members. The idea being, you know, we are the most accessible government agency in the city. And we want to be accessible to community members. We want to inform them of what's going on. We post arrests every 24 hours. We post crimes that occur in your area. It's a great way to interact with law enforcement, share information with us and for us to share information with you. And it's -- we have over 20,000 list serve members.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Steven. On another matter, Chief Lanier, last week the D.C. Council passed an emergency law to allow carry -- or concealed carry of handguns in the district responding to a court decision this summer. As soon as this month, district residents will be able to apply for concealed carry licenses. But all applications go through you. You have to prove to the Chief of Police that you're facing a very personal threat. How tough will that be to do?

LANIERWell, it sounds simplistic but that's -- the process is we have a firearms registration section here that's been here for decades. And so we have, you know, people assigned in there that have been doing this type of permitting, you know, for a long, long time. So the process is not much different. So you have to, you know, come in and have the ability to legally register a firearm to begin with. So there are criteria you have to meet to legally register a firearm. So that's, you know, no felony conviction, no mental health commitment in the prior five years, you know.

LANIERSo there's legal standards that you have to meet in order to be issued a permit. So it's not as discretionary as some may think. There are rules that you have to -- you know, standards you have to meet. And that's even at the federal level and across the country. And then once you meet that basic criteria for a permit to be issued, you can request permits for concealed carry under the new law. And that should be after October 22.

LANIERSo again, there is some legal criteria that you would have to meet that's very similar to other states. They're still hammering out a couple of issues and we have to do rulemaking but basically Maryland, New Jersey, New York all have very similar rules about application for concealed carry. And then there's an appeal board if you're denied and you want to appeal that decision. So I don't think it's as arbitrary as people think. There are some pretty clear rules and regulations that you have to meet that are, you know, not as arbitrary as I think has been put out.

NNAMDIOkay. Because the suggestion is that if you say I live in a high-crime neighborhood and that's a personal threat to me, that that probably won't make it by the approval process. But you say it's still be rolled out.

NNAMDIYeah, they're still hammering out. As you know, the city council is developing the final language that will be part of the law. And then the rulemaking has to be done behind that. So there's still some issue that have to be, you know, narrowed down. But I would expect they're going to be very consistent with the other states that have already kind of passed the legal standard.

NNAMDIOne of the things we are also hammering out is who's going to be the next mayor of this city. And tonight we'll be having a mayoral debate at NPR headquarters on North Capitol Street. And there are three prominent candidates for mayor. Would you be prepared to continue as police chief regardless of who gets elected the next mayor of the district?

LANIERSure. I mean, I love the city. I love my police department and, you know, I love what I do. Provided that the new mayor asks me to stay I would certainly would want to stay.

NNAMDICathy Lanier, she's chief of the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia. Chief Lanier, thank you so much for joining us.

LANIERThank you. I'm sorry I couldn't make it in the studio. I'll see you soon.

NNAMDIWell, feel free to join us at the debate tonight, if you have the time.

LANIERAll right, Kojo. Good luck.

NNAMDIThanks a lot. I'll need it. We're going to take a short break. When we're coming back, it's Your Turn. You can start calling now, whether you have comments related to our discussion that we just had with Chief Lanier or anything else on your mind, 800-433-8850. It's Your Turn. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.