MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show, connecting your neighborhood with the world. Howard Ross is with us. Howard Ross spent decades exploring the rules and rituals of the American workplace, but today we're exploring how our business culture compares with, say, Switzerland or Singapore, especially when it comes to diversity.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIAmerican attitudes toward race and gender and culture reflect our unique history, affirmative action and policies against discrimination came directly from our long struggle for civil rights. But what if your country never had a civil rights movement? What if you never had to confront large scale immigration and diversity in the workplace?

MR. KOJO NNAMDIInternational businesses often find themselves navigating a patchwork of cultural expectations in different countries. Howard Ross is a business coach and consultant and trainer who works on workplace diversity issues. He's a principal with the firm Cook Ross. Howard, good to see you.

MR. HOWARD ROSSHey Kojo, how are you?

NNAMDIHere in the U.S., we tend to see workplace diversity issues through the lens of civil rights and for good reason. For most of this country's history, the corporate world was mostly closed off to people of color and women and it was only after the civil rights movement that progress was made at diversifying American workplaces. But what about countries without that kind of history? How are these same issues viewed in a country, say, like Switzerland, a place that never had a civil rights movement, that finds itself nevertheless confronting the forces of immigration and diversity?

ROSSWell I think it's a very interesting difference, Kojo, and it's hard for us. I mean, I think even in this country, we don't really see -- and when I say we, I mean, the larger national zeitgeist about this issue, don't really see the way our history with race relations, particularly the civil rights movement, African Americans and the women's movement to a certain degree, have shaped the way we see these issues of diversity, inclusion and cultural competency.

ROSSWe tend to see them as an extension of these historical movements because they are, in our context. But if you go to places like northern Europe, to Switzerland -- you know, in the last 18 months or so I've been in Switzerland, Japan, Singapore, Denmark, London, Canada, Taiwan and India, you know. You go to places like northern Europe, for example, where, for the most part, you've been dealing with a racially homogenous group of people, historically up until the last 10, 15, 20 years.

ROSSYou've been dealing with a group of people who are mostly religiously homogenous, of course a lot of it having to do with, you know, the Holocaust and the removal of a lot of people, particularly Jews, but also Roma and other people. And so you've been dealing with cultures that have seen themselves generally as being pretty socially liberal on these issues or progressive and inclusive on these issues. In fact, in a lot of cases, very judgmental about the United States...

NNAMDIYeah I was about to say, especially when they're looking across the water.

ROSSThat's right. And all of a sudden, in an incredibly short historical period of time, we see these kinds of changes happening. I mean, just -- I don't know if you saw the story, but you probably did, just the other day that said that now this year the name Muhammad is the number one name for boys in England now. The new name for image brings up obviously all kinds of issues. So it's something that's happened very fast and it challenges, fundamentally, the way people in those cultures see themselves, even in the language that's used to describe it.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is the number to call to join this conversation. Have you worked or spent time in another country? What differences did you see in their assumptions about cultural diversity? 800-433-8850 or go to our website, kojoshow.org, join the conversation there. These are issues, Howard, that business persons and diplomats have always faced when they found themselves working professionally in countries other than their own.

NNAMDIAnd that is that you need to kind of pick up the cultural practices and symbols of the host country, even if the learning curve can be really steep. But it's, I guess, a big problem for people in the host country's learning curve.

ROSSWell, and there's a big difference also between people who are visiting a country and working in a country than it is for people who have moved into that country as immigrants. And they're seen quite differently. I remember a great story that was told a number of years ago by a guy who was working at the American Red Cross at the time and this was before apartheid fell in South Africa.

ROSSHe was an African-American man and the Red Cross had sent him over to Johannesburg to do something with the Red Cross there. And he was, you know, had a lot of trepidation about going until he got there. And he was actually treated quite well by people until one day he was standing outside of the hotel. And he was on the street just looking for something and I guess he was in relatively casual clothes.

ROSSAnd a policeman came up to him with his -- and asked him, are you a resident? And he said, yes, thinking that the guy meant, are you a resident of the hotel. And as soon as he said he was a resident, the policemen obviously thought he meant resident of the country, at which point, the policeman put his hand on his billy club, or whatever they call it there, and quite threateningly, using a particular derogatory name that …

NNAMDIWith which we're familiar.

ROSSWith which we're familiar, yeah. Well, it's not actually what we would call the N word. I think it's a kaffir. That's the word that they use there. Said, then you should know you have no business being here, yada, yada, yada, until the guy cleared it up and immediately his tone changed. So there's -- you know, and I think the same thing is true when Americans travel abroad. We're treated as Americans.

ROSSPeople might be impatient with us at times, but a little bit more understanding. I think that the real challenge is when we've got immigrants in – moving into the country, very much in the way people say here, well, if they come to America, they should learn to speak English. I think the same thing is true. They're seen as much more foreign, much less patience.

ROSSAnd it can really be captured by a conversation I had. I was asked to give a keynote at the Danish Institute for Human Rights Convention two years ago, three years ago now I guess, in Copenhagen. And I had a conversation with a guy who is the head of the Danish Institute for Human Rights. And he said he was in conversations with some of the sort of right wing anti-immigrant folks there. And he said, listen -- at the time, their unemployment rate was less than one and half percent, which is -- anybody who even has a semblance of knowledge about economics knows that a country can't survive with a -- your economy will start to spiral.

ROSSYou simply don't have the people to work there. And he said to people our economy will go down if we don't get more people. And this guy looked at him and said, if that has to happen, it has to happen. Denmark is for the Danes. And what he really meant was Denmark is for white people.

NNAMDI800-433-8850, especially if you have come from another culture and are adjusting to working in the United States, the adjustments you feel that you have to make and the adjustments you may not want to make. 800-433-8850. Many American companies have recognized the value of diversifying their workforce. They see strengths in recruiting people from different backgrounds, but in its -- how should I this? In its less voluntary forms people associate it with quotas and a very crass form of affirmative action. I'm curious how a company in Europe or Asia sees the idea of diversity and recruitment.

ROSSWell, I think that it depends, obviously, on the particular country and historical background of the country, very much as it does here. I think that most companies who we're working with, they're global companies so it's an issue much broader than how do they see it locally for those particular companies. It's we're working globally. We have the product, services, et cetera that are being served in -- you know, one particular -- I was there last week with one our clients that has people in, you know, literally dozens of countries around the world -- probably over 100 countries around the world.

ROSSWell, they're very clear that they have to have a global mindset and that means moving people, not just from their base country in Switzerland or to their base country in Switzerland, but actually moving people in all different places all around the world so that people can get a sense of what it is to operate globally, people can get a sense of what's the mindset of the people we're dealing with and their market share in different places.

ROSSWhat's the mindset of the employees we're bringing in? There are lots of companies -- A friend of mine, who used to work at Colgate Palmolive, for example, told me that part of their pathway to the top is that in order to get to a certain level of leadership, you have been based in at least two other countries other than your home country. Now, more and more companies globally that are looking at doing business are thinking in those terms. We need international citizens to do the work.

ROSSThere are countries that have specific historical barriers, either legally or culturally, that get in the way. Japan is a great example of that. You know, Japan has been based on this notion of the archipelago. Very disinterested in having any kind of input from immigrants and also not particularly keen on women moving into the business environment at any particular level and yet, at the same time, they've got a diminishing work force as well.

ROSSSo something's got to give and either we're going to let more immigrants in or are we going to let more women get involved. So they're kind of up against two, both conscious and unconscious patterns of bias, that are built into their system. And if they don't address at least one of them or probably both of them, their economy is likely to feel the effect.

NNAMDIA lot of people want to talk about this issue.

ROSSLet's hear from them.

NNAMDIWe'll start with Dave in Leesburg, Va. Dave you're on the on the air. Go ahead, please.

DAVEYes, hi. I just wanted to point out the contrast in acceptance of cultural diversity. I was in the Air Force and spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia. I'm an African-American and I happen to blend in completely with the populace. I would go places and they would speak to me first in Arabic, not assuming I was an American. And I have to say, oddly enough, it was -- this may sound strange to some people, but others may recognize this. But the first time I felt free was in Saudi Arabia because I was treated like everybody else for the first time in my life.

DAVEThe contrast with that, the diametrically opposed experience, was in Iceland where I stuck out like a sore thumb and they are just a hair shy of being a phobic there. They, you know, every -- they were so focused on their ethnic purity, that at times I was made to feel very uncomfortable. I guess that's the best way to express it.

NNAMDIAnd on the other hand, in Saudi Arabia where people assumed you were Saudi, except for the obvious language difference, you felt fairly comfortable?

DAVEVery comfortable. It was amazing. And I would have thought just the opposite of -- prior to my going to those two countries.

NNAMDIHey, culturally, he probably felt that he was more in tune with the people in Iceland, only to discover that, well, he was not.

ROSSWell, I think that -- thanks, Dave, I appreciate your call because I think you're bringing up a couple of important issues. One is that there are times when people go oversees and all of a sudden have the experience -- you know, so many African-Americans have talked about going to Africa and feeling that way. There are Jews who go to Israel and feel that way as well. You know, there are other people who go to their home countries and feel the way you're describing, which is, all of a sudden, this thing has separated me from people.

ROSSNow, it's no longer there. It's no longer separating me from people. And it's a weight that's off the shoulder. And for a lot of people, it points out often the weight that they're carrying that they didn't even realize they were carrying. An invisible backpack that some people have talked about, you know, of weight that we carry. But another thing happens, is of course, you've got multiple identities.

ROSSBecause if you're an American soldier in a uniform -- you know, a lot of military people I talk to talk about green being the only color, meaning the color of the uniform, not money. But that, you know, when you're in the army, being in the army is the thing that mostly identifies you. And if you take that uniform off and you're in more street clothes, you're seen one way. But in the uniform, you may still be seen as the other. And, you know, multiple identities can show up in all those different ways.

NNAMDIDave, thank you for your call. On to Heather in Washington, D.C. Heather, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

HEATHERHi. I agree this is a very complex and complicated issue. When I was a very young adult, I lived and worked in Italy the year that Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy were killed. And I was attacked on the street as an American and therefore a racist. At the same time, my experience living in Italy, like the other gentleman in Saudi Arabia, was very freeing because I'm light browned skin and I felt more comfortable in Italy than I'd ever felt in America.

HEATHERWhen I left and went to Paris, I found the speech was about freedom and liberty for all. But at that point, if you wanted to find a seat on the crowded Metro, there were seats available if you wanted to sit next to a black African. And I, as an American, saw that as a lack of understanding that all people are human.

HEATHERBut the very best was that same year coming back to the United States, where I was expecting racism all over the place and as I came in through the airport in New York City, being embraced by the black luggage handlers welcoming me home. Although I dislike America's immigration policy right now and wish it was different, what my mother always said is, America is the best place in the world and the worst place and it was wonderful to come home then.

NNAMDII don't know. What do you draw from all of that, Howard? One of the things I draw from it is talking about being screamed at as a murderer while she was in Europe. At the time, in 1968 in Italy and in France -- and France, of course, was a lot of place where -- after the King assassination in '68, uh, France was a place where a lot of African-American musicians used to go for refuge in the '50s and the '60s -- about '40s, '50s and '60s. And now, in both of those countries, with increasing immigration, we're beginning to see new attitudes surfacing. The other day, an Italian politician, in relationship to the Roma was saying, they don't even look like us.

ROSSWell, absolutely. And this point that Heather's bringing up is a good point. I was just thinking about the same thing. You know, Miles Davis going to Europe, Curt Flood (sp?) going to Europe. If you remember, even Billie Holiday being treated differently in Europe. You know, all of these historical references to artists, particularly musicians, a lot of jazz musicians who went to Europe because they felt much more accepted. And it is an interesting thing.

ROSSI was talking to a colleague who works in Switzerland for one of our client companies, an African-American woman, and has learned to speak Swiss German so she can fit in. She says, you know, people are really interested, but they obviously look differently at people who are African immigrants, for example, or the like. And so there's so many subtleties here that are at play in terms of how people are seen. I think what we're seeing now in France, you know -- and actually, Switzerland just had a ruling event that no more minarets being built.

NNAMDIYep.

ROSSAnd Denmark we talked about earlier, of course, all the anti-Muslim practice there. They issue -- people's reaction in London to this news about the name Mohammad being the primary name is that -- very much like we see here in our country to the Latino immigration population or the Hispanic immigration population. And that is that it's not a function just the fact that they're immigrants. It's how threatening that immigration feels to us, how much are they going to take over our culture or change our culture fundamentally?

ROSSIf you remember way back a number of years ago -- well, way back meaning four or five years ago when -- I think it was 2006 when the immigration thing really took off and a bunch of Latino and Latino artists did the Spanish language version of the Star Spangled Banner.

NNAMDIYep.

ROSSAnd it was this big hue and cry that the Star Spangled Banner should not be sung in any other language. But I remember as kids going to Hebrew school and we would sing it in Hebrew. Everybody thought it was quaint. Even today, if the president went to, you know, someplace and a Greek Orthodox school came out and sang it in Greek, everybody would think it was quaint. The reason it's threatening when it's in Spanish is because they're taking over. And I think that's what we're seeing now in Europe relative to particularly the Muslim population.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. If you have calls, stay on the line. If the lines are busy, go to our website, kojoshow.org, join the conversation there. We're talking about, I guess, cultural competency, but in a global environment, where with our history of civil rights and the women's movement, in other countries, particularly in Europe and Asia, with the increasing immigration and what used to be societies that were considered homogenous, how they are responding to that. 800-433-8850. If you've had any experiences like that, either way, we are happy to take your call. Howard Ross joins us. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation with Howard Ross. Howard Ross is a business coach, a diversity consultant and a trainer who works on workplace diversity issues. He's a principal with the firm Cook Ross. We're talking about global business and cultural competency. Taking your calls at 800-433-8850. You can send e-mail to kojo@wamu.org. Before I get back to the phones, Howard, there's a point you were making earlier that I'd like to underscore again, because we've talked about how American companies ignore cultural competency of their own peril. We know that America in 2050 will be much more diverse.

NNAMDII was just handed statistics showing that the census reported last week that -- or recently, the non-white minorities accounted for about 49 percent of the children born in the U.S. between July of 2008 and July, 2009, gaining ground from 46 percent two years earlier. The trajectory suggesting that minority birth will soon eclipse births of whites of European ancestry in this country.

NNAMDISo we know that American companies have been adjusting to that and it'll be even more diverse due to the shear forces of population growth and immigration. But countries like Switzerland, Denmark, you mentioned earlier, dealing with the same forces, not so well equipped have a more, as I said earlier, homogenous idea of what makes a Swiss or a Dane. But is that going to have to change, their idea of what their society is? Because it seems to me that that's where you'll find the most resistance.

ROSSWell, I think that that's a very interesting question, Kojo. And, you know, I don't know that there's a quick -- there's no quick answer to what will happen. Obviously, we're predicting the future, we don't know the future. I do think, though, what you're speaking to is an important distinction in understanding the consciousness difference coming from our country.

ROSSI mean, for as many difficulties as we've had with race relations in our country, and God knows we've had plenty, for as many differences as we've had with gender and other forms of diversity, and are still having today, we have a fundamental American ethos, which is that America is the land of immigrants. It's like -- I was just...

NNAMDIMelting pot, quilt, whatever you call it.

ROSSMy son just reminded me this weekend of a very funny thing that Steven Colbert said when he was testifying in front of Congress a couple of weeks ago, if you saw the film. And he said, in his role -- before he got out of role, he said, you know, my grandparents and great-grandparents didn't travel 4 and 5,000 miles to come to this country just to lose their jobs to immigrants, you know.

ROSSAnd that really is the mindset. We forget that this was a country of immigrants. But part of that ethos -- as part of the American ethos is we're supposed to include everybody. Even if we don't do it well, we're supposed to. That's very different from some of the countries you're talking about. When you talk about Japan, when you talk about northern Europe particularly, you're talking about countries in which the ethos is much more about homogeneity. That homogeneity brings dependability, it brings countonability, it lets me know how to survive.

ROSSIt's built on anthropological strains, that it taught people that the more dependable things are, the easier it is to survive in those environments. Families are smaller and therefore more contained than they are in some other parts of the world. And so how they evolved to this and begin to stop seeing quote "those people as the other" and broaden that, will depend a lot on how this plays itself out every time. But as long as there's economic difficulty, which of course everybody's dealing with now, it's going to be more challenging because that brings up the other as more threatening and looming.

NNAMDIBut the point that some people would make is that it may not be necessarily racist, but that, in these cultures, people think that whether you are black or Muslim, you can ultimately become a Dane or you can ultimately become Swedish, if you understand that there is a cultural norm here that has defined this country for many years. And you need to understand what that is and become a part of it.

ROSSWell, on a rational level, that may be true for most people. Now, for some people -- you know, we know that race is the primary identifier between people for human beings. I mean, studies after studies show that. So we know that most people identify race in very different ways than they identify other things. But I can tell you that I have a good friend and a colleague, somebody who has worked with our company in Denmark whose mother was African-American, father was Danish and lives in Denmark as a citizen and has lived there for a while who has cab drive -- but she's also black, light skinned, but black. And she has people who tell her overtly, you know, y'all should go back to Africa.

ROSSNow, she's Danish. She's got Danish citizenship. She knows how to live in Danish customs. She's married to a Danish-born man who's white. But that doesn't change the fact that people see her in a particular way. And so on some rational level we might say that that's true, but the unconscious, the irrational says that one is the other. And that's the challenge that we've always dealt with, of course, in our society, and they're going to increasingly deal with.

NNAMDIHere's Orietta (sp?) in Fairfax, Virginia. Orietta, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ORIETTAHi. Thank you for taking my call. I lived in Stockholm, Sweden, for six years and I actually just moved back to the area about a month ago. I was working there and I was also a student. And I experienced so much racism there and loads and loads of nationalism. I was denied service at a clothing store. I was called names. And I even became a Swedish citizen since I had lived there for six years. But, you know, through friends and through other people, they made me realize that even though I speak Swedish, adapted and assimilated to Swedish culture and customs, I would never, ever be a Swede or accepted as one.

ORIETTAI don't look like a Swede. I have dark skin and dark hair. But it's so different compared to my parents, for example. My dad is from Cuba and my mom is from Venezuela and they came to United States, as one a refugee and the other an immigrant. And they're American citizens now, but they are accepted as American citizens and they feel American.

ORIETTAAnd, yeah, it's just quite a pity. And one thing Howard Ross had mentioned about his friend in Denmark. I have two friends that are brothers born in Sweden. They have one Chilean parent and one Swedish parent and they have never been considered Swedish by the cultural standards, unfortunately. So it is really a lot about what people look like and race as the identifier.

NNAMDIOrietta, while you were in Sweden for, what, six years?

ORIETTASix years, yes.

NNAMDIDid you want to be considered Swedish?

ORIETTAWell, I wanted to be able to, you know, be able to fit into society and retain my own cultural identity, you know, which is -- actually, I'm not really sure what it is. I'm an American, but I'm also Latina. I was born here so that's also a very complex issue. But I found that unless I was willing to give up part of myself or give up myself, I would never be -- I mean, I would never be accepted anyway. I was at a...

NNAMDIOkay.

ORIETTA...midsummer party, and this was after I became a Swedish citizen, and someone had tacked up all these photos of -- oh, look at all these happy Swedes and one American. And I wrote, oh, well, I'm actually Swedish now. And they were like, well, you're not really Swedish.

ORIETTASo, yeah, it's kind of -- yeah.

NNAMDIWell, here's Howard Ross.

ROSSWell, I think what Orietta is speaking to is another dynamic that we'll talk about, which is different, again, in Europe. Particularly in Northern Europe I think that this is true, although in other places as well, and that is the absolutely absence of political correctness. Now, as you know, Kojo, I'm not a big fan of political correctness when it's practiced in its extremity.

ROSSBut I'm talking about civility around these issues, in that especially in my experience in Germanic countries where it's tendency anyway for people to be very blunt in their language and just say what's on their mind in a much less shielded way than we do here. People say things to people of color that they would never say in -- that most people would never say out loud in America, because, of course, we have this culture that's sort of, you know, you could get in trouble for saying those things. Not necessarily true in places like Sweden or Denmark or Germany or other places.

ROSSYou know, people say what's on their mind and it's often ugly and it's often not polite and is spoken very much in the way that Orietta talks about. And it adds to this -- rather than just a disquieting sense of being the outsider, you are very clearly told that you're the outsider in a lot of these circumstances.

NNAMDIOrietta, thank you very much for your call and for sharing that experience. On to Curt in Washington, D.C. Curt, your turn.

CURTHi, Howard and Kojo. I wanted to ask quickly. I work in a large multinational organization and we do a lot of training, trying to get in areas like a respectful workplace and reaching out and trying to resolve conflicts, you know, at the lowest level. And we have a challenge because that's a very western view, you know, to say what's directly on your mind, you know, rather than the indirect or maybe go through a third party.

CURTWe get a lot of push in a lot of cultures because that's very -- you know, it's a very different way of communication. I wonder if you had any answers about how to work in a situation like that where you're dealing with people from a lot of different cultures who have different ideas about respect and hierarchy and, you know, attitudes about what you can and can't say to the boss and those kinds of things.

ROSSYou know, it's a real challenge, Curt. We recently worked with John Hopkins University. The Carey School of Business has a new program they call the Global NBA Program and it's a great program. And they've brought in students from almost 100 different -- almost a 100 students from close to 20 different countries. And we helped them with an orientation to this effort over a period of weeks.

ROSSAnd one of the big issues was exactly what you're talking about, which is that the American students especially are taught to, you know, raise your hand and be heard in the classroom. And a lot of the students from other countries, particularly the Asian students, really stood out in this regard, had a very different sense of sitting back and waiting for their turn.

ROSSAnd so a lot of the work we were doing was helping people understand this and look at how they could work together as a better learning community. And at one point, towards the end of the time, one of the American students came up to us and he was being very positive -- this wasn't a negative comment, but he said, you know, there's one challenge I have with all this.

ROSSI like the idea but there's a challenge I have, which is that our grades are -- 15 to 20 percent of our grades are dependent upon classroom participation. So, you know, what you're asking us to do is to take a chance in sacrificing our grade by holding back. And, you know, our fundamental structures are different, relative to the kinds of things you're talking about.

ROSSAnd I saw this last week working with this global team of women who we're working with in Switzerland. In one of the small sessions we had with one of their leaders, one of their executives was there and they had seven or eight women in the room. And there was one woman, we got to the very end of it, and she's Taiwanese, that hadn't said a word. And so knowing this, I took a pause towards the end and I said, hey, we haven't heard from you. And she lets go with this stream of, you know, incredibly valuable -- both questions and comments that contributed enormously.

ROSSBut had I not stopped and invited her in, she never would've said a word. So I think that these -- Curt, you're really speaking to the subtleties that we're dealing with of this that go way beyond this issue of discriminatory behavior. It's really how do we fully include in value everybody coming from different protocols for behavior?

NNAMDICurt, thank you very much for your call. We discussed earlier Sweden, Denmark and the idea of homogeneity. On the other side of that spectrum, you've also worked with companies in Singapore, which is really one of the world's great melting pots. How do they handle diversity in Singapore in the workplace?

ROSSWell, Singapore -- I mean, I think it's a bit of a misnomer to call Singapore a melting pot in the sense that the population -- of course, the Malay population, you know, that sort of discarded the Singaporean population. And they went down there and, you know, there's -- you have a predominant Chinese-based population there and then you've got an Indian population and then some others. But the Chinese population clearly is the dominant population in this -- the Singaporean Chinese population is very much the dominant population.

ROSSBut it is another example. It's an example of a country that's never much dealt with this, but they're doing it in a very Singaporean way, and that is collectively looking at the issue, coming together. They've got an organization. The organization that brought us there is called (sounds like) Taffet. It's a tri-apartheid alliance for equal employment.

ROSSIt's made up of representatives from the government, from businesses and from unions. And they all are very consciously looking at how to change their culture. On the surface, that's what's happening. Underneath that, of course, there's still the same kind of subtle and unconscious patterns that are going, which is why they brought me there to talk about unconscious patterns of bias and how they might play themselves out.

ROSSBut that's a good example of the culture because of the nature of the way it's designed. You know, they don't call it Singapore Incorporated. It's done in a very thoughtful process moving forward. Some of us wouldn't feel comfortable there, but it worked for their culture.

NNAMDIOnto Michael in Silver Spring, Maryland. Michael, your turn.

MICHAELHello, Kojo and Mr. Ross. I spent my junior year abroad in Paris from 1966 to 1967 and then went back to Europe as a diplomat from 2000 until 2009 spending most of time in Geneva, Switzerland and then the last three-and-a-half years in Paris. And speaking in the French context, the contrast that I saw with respect to how Africans and Muslims and Arabs were treated and integrated into the economy in 1966, compared to what you see now, could not be more dramatic.

MICHAELI used to walk the streets of Paris going between my two academic institutions and seeing Africans sweeping the gutters. That was literally the only work that they could get -- or washing dishes. And it would virtually bring tears to my eyes. I'm an African-American myself. I went back as a diplomat. I just came back in August of 2009, and I saw Africans in salesman positions, serving food in restaurant and on television -- increasing in television since November 2005 riots. And so there's a strong surge -- quiet surge that's taking place in France, compared to Switzerland, where I saw virtually little of that.

MICHAELBut one of the things that will help to remind you where you stand, in terms of being the other, is simply to do this. It's when you go to France and you go out with a group of people that happens to be mixed, as I frequently was, but I was the only African-looking person in the group. Sit down in a table of, let's say, six. And invariably, nine times out of ten, if not ten out of ten, the waiter would somehow, no matter where you were positioned around the table, start taking orders and serving to your left so that you were always the last person to be asked for your order or to be served. Even in situations where I was the one in authority. I was inviting them. You know, I was the person with authority.

NNAMDIAnd clearly, Michael, you don't think that was coincidence.

MICHAELThat was -- statistically, I think...

ROSSWhen something happens all the time, we believe it's not coincidence, right? Yeah. Michael, I think that, you know, there's no question that we're seeing more people ascend in those cultures to higher jobs. And at the same time, I think we have to be careful to not make that mean that people are really fully incorporated. I know you probably know this, but I just want to speak it for our listeners.

ROSSIt's sort of like, you know, when people said after President Obama became president, well, this must mean that we're now equal, you know. It doesn't change the fact that there are disparities in every aspect of American life for African-Americans, and it doesn't change the fact that in France that there's still huge disparities. I mean, we know that the Muslim population, as one of the examples you gave, the Muslim population has terrible problems economically in France and in terms of exclusion.

ROSSAnd not even to mention the fact that they're not allowed to wear their traditional religious garb in some cases and the like. But the fact is that when you have enough people there, some people are going to transcend that. Some people are going to get to the top level. Now, how long it takes for that to equalize remains to be seen.

ROSSWe know in our country, you know, recent statistics where women are concerned in business, for example -- just because I have these statistics right at my fingertips -- show that in the last ten years, we've gone from 79 percent of salary for women to 81 percent, and 40 percent of managerial positions to 41 percent, and that's with all the money we're spending on diversity programs, with all the effort we're putting in.

ROSSAt that rate, it will take us until 2100 before we've got equity. So I think similarly in those cultures, we're beginning to see some people peek over, you know, poke their heads over the line. But for the most part, those disparities are still quite dramatic.

NNAMDIAnd even as Michael witnesses and experiences that, what Howard is pointing out is that tensions still exist, and in some cases, may even be rising.

ROSSExactly right. Because now, you know, "those people" quote/unquote, who were relegated to those positions now threaten my job.

NNAMDIMichael, thank you very much for your call. We're going to take a short break. If you have called, stay on the line, we'll try to get to your call. Or send us an e-mail to kojo@wamu.org, or a tweet @kojoshow. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIHoward Ross is with us. He's a business coach, consultant and trainer who works on workplace diversity issues. He's a principal in the firm, Cook Ross. We're talking about global diversity or diversity as it's practiced in the work places in other countries in the world. Howard, is cultural competency just another way of saying secular? It seems that one of underpinnings of your work is being able to see the world through secular lens.

NNAMDIThat doesn't mean you can't hold faith very strongly, but it seems to mean that you have to recognize other value systems, other cultural practices.

ROSSRight. I think that we -- as a result of the pain that we've had culturally dealing with differences. We went through a period particularly starting in the '60s and into the '70s and '80s where we decided that the way to deal with these was to be secular. We're going to pretend like we don't see the differences. And you remember all those songs of the '60s, black, white, we are all -- you know.

ROSSBut the truth is, and what we've realized is, that avoiding looking at the differences doesn't really help us. Treating people the same is not treating them equally. And so cultural competency is really an understanding of that, an understanding that when we have knowledge about the archetypes of particular groups of people and people's cultures, we can get a better understanding of where they might be coming from.

ROSSNow, I want to be clear. That's distinct from stereotyping. That doesn't mean that we are assuming that everybody from that culture has the same values and that's why when we teach cultural competency. We teach people to use those distinctions as questions. But, for example, if I were to say to you, are men taller than women, you would say yes because in every culture around the planet, men are taller, per average, than women.

ROSSBut we also know that there are women who are taller than men. On one hand we could say, well, forget it. Some women are taller than men, but if I'm opening a clothing store and I want to get, you know, stock my store with what people are likely to buy, I'm going to look at those trends. I may have some pieces for the taller women or some pieces for the shorter men, but for the most part, I'm going to use those trends.

ROSSAnd I think, similarly, understanding those patterns of culture, which is what anthropology teaches us, helps us be more sensitive to what kind of dynamics might be in play. And that's where cultural competency comes into play.

NNAMDIHere's where it gets confusing. In many parts of Europe, for instance, and maybe here, issues of race are much more fused with issues of religion. Many immigrants...

ROSSYes.

NNAMDI…settling there are not only not white, many of them are also Muslim. And in this case, we're seeing more and more people who are hostile to diversity actually using the language of secularism to make their case as in the (word?) .

ROSSThat's right. Well, absolutely. Because, you see, we see why do they have to show their religion so boldly? You know, that's the way it looks to people. It's like when, you know, people who are homophobic say, why do gay people have to do all these public displays of affection by holding hands -- these men have to hold hands on the street? Well, you don't stop to think, wait a second. How many heterosexual couples do you see holding hands?

ROSSYou know, what are the displays of ethnicity and of religion, for example, that you see everywhere you turn around in Europe, which are displays mostly of Christian religion, of course, because that's the mainstream. But the mainstream, when it's that normal, becomes concealed by its obviousness. So we don't even see all the churches that are around, all the crosses that are around, the Christmas decorations that are around.

ROSSAll we know is that when you're in France you need to be French, for example. But being French also means not so consciously and not so loudly spoken, being Christian. And so the other looks like that, but we don't realize that there's an undue hardship put on the other to be quote "secular."

NNAMDISo you're saying that when we see people who are dressed in what appears to be Muslim garb, because sometimes we don't know the difference with Sikh and Hindu and Muslim...

ROSSYes. That's a whole other conversation, our ignorance.

NNAMDI...when we see people who seem to be dressed in Muslim garb, it seems to us that they are inappropriately displaying their religion in a society in which we don't necessarily approve of that kind of display of religion?

ROSSWell, especially now, because we've got people who are branding all Muslims as terrorists because the fact that some Muslims committed acts of terror. You know, the Bill O'Reilly comment, of course, that occurred recently on "The View" is a good example of that. Well, Muslims did this. Well, you know, that's like saying that Christians bombed Oklahoma City. You know, of course, the people who did that were Muslim, but 1.4 billion people in the plant didn't do it.

NNAMDIAnd Juan Williams said when he sees people kind of openly dressed as Muslims, they are openly wearing Muslim garb -- and there was, in his statement, the notion that these people were deliberately dressing in a way to point out the fact that they are Muslim.

ROSSRight. And why would that necessarily -- I think what he said was that they're more attached to their Muslim identity than they are to their American identity. And the question that I have is why would that necessarily be any more true than somebody who is wearing a cross being more attached to their Christian identity than their American identity? Only if you assume that America is a Christian country, which, of course, we know is a fallacious assumption because America is decidedly not a country of any religion.

ROSSBut it's a fallacious assumption that about 60 percent of the people in this country hold right now. So I think that...

NNAMDIAlthough, he later made the point that you shouldn't stereotype people because of their appearance.

ROSSWell, the challenge with what Juan Williams said was not so much the words that he used, but the context in which they were in. Because had Juan Williams said, for example, look, I have to be honest, just because I think it's a valuable conversation to have, when I -- and then he would have said exactly the words he said -- when I see people, I feel nervous. And then, had he followed that by saying, I don't like those feeling in myself.

ROSSI'm not proud that I have those feelings, nor do I think it's constructive because it can lead to stereotyping. But because of all of the messaging I'm getting, because of all of the stuff that -- and because frankly, of my lack of experience with people like that, I have those feelings. Now, the question is, what am I going to do with those feelings? That would have been a very constructive conversation and it could have lead to a national dialogue that was helpful. But it speaks to something you and I have talked about so many times, Kojo, context is everything.

NNAMDIOn to Fred in Washington, D.C. Fred, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

FREDYes. There -- well, first, I thought of a comment to the earlier French guy situation. (sounds like) Jillian and Rita (unintelligible) two people who have done a lot of work on immigration in America, point out that the first generation of immigrants in America have always been derided, but by the time there's a second generation, they're good Americans, so there's that. But the question I have...

ROSSAs long as they're white.

NNAMDII was about to say African-Americans were not exactly immigrants, but go ahead, please.

FREDBut even that aside, the question of whether top-down diversity programs are really superior to bottom-up diversity programs. I'm thinking about the United States and South Africa, which as far as I know, are the only two countries that had any diversity programs. The Jim Crow laws in Louisiana and other parts of the south, where -- I'm from Louisiana -- which essentially blocked -- kept businesses from firing and customers from being served by blacks.

FREDAnd then, an example of a totally different one, the Norwegian decision, oh, five or six years ago, to mandate 40 percent whites in boardrooms. So are those top down -- first of all, is there a comparable set of anti-diversity policies than the other nations had and is this tendency of top-down diversity as opposed to essentially you pay a tax if you're a racist in a market economy? Is there some sort of a comparable (word?) that will force diversity in the world because you lose business if you're a racist?

ROSSWell, I think first of all, you'd be a little hard pressed saying that that Nuremberg Laws weren't that sort of thing. And I think that really, historically, if you look at any case, whether it's the Armenians or Rwandans or any place else where people have been oppressed, there have been, you know, de jure and de facto examples of people not being allowed to serve in particular positions, Fred.

ROSSBut speaking to your larger issue. You know, I find it really fascinating, you know. We've decided, as a culture, that we can't afford to not tap the power of women, for example, in our work force. We can't afford to not tap this huge percentage now of people of color. And 90 percent of the population growth, as Kojo said earlier, over the next 40 years is going to come from people of color.

ROSSIf we're not managing that talent, getting that talent into our work places, we're simply not going to survive and be able to compete with the Chinese and Indians. But do top-down things work? Well, that's where people start to talk about, you know, quota as the Q word, which is almost as offensive to some people as the N word is. My reaction to that, is look, if we know that in order to manage talent effectively, in order to be better businesses, in order to be a better society economically and in every other way, we've got to get people fully engaged.

ROSSAnd if we're not willing to outwardly have that conversation and say, here's what our target is, our target is that we've got to people engaged, we can't continue to survive as a society and compete with the great countries all over the world -- or rising countries all over the world and expect to not fully engage everybody. And unless we set numbers to that and say, here's what that looks like, then we're not going to get there.

NNAMDIFred, thank you very much for your call. And now here is Churon. Churon, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

CHURONThanks for taking my call. I'm a Sikh American living in Baltimore, turban wearing. Let me offer a different perspective for you. I grew up without my turban and without long hair and I had a shaved face and everything. Then in the middle of my senior year of high school, I started growing and wearing a turban. So I was able to see two sides of the kind of cultural, you know, thought to what I was doing.

CHURONI grew up a Ravens fan so I would always go the Ravens' games. And before I had cut hair, I would go and, you know, be fine. I wouldn't even be noticed. When I started wearing my turban and I'd go to the Ravens' games, you know, I got all sorts of different derogatory things. People would be like, oh, my goodness, what are you doing here?

CHURONI was wearing like a black turban and just a regular shirt and pants. And then the thought occurred to me that the reason why people do this is, you know, because they obviously feel threatened because they're just like, oh, this guy's coming and look what he's doing. So the next time I went to a Ravens' game, I wore a purple turban and a jersey and I came in and people were overjoyed by my presence because...

NNAMDIRavens' colors, baby.

CHURONPardon me?

NNAMDIRavens' colors.

CHURONYeah. I wore Ravens' colors. And I came in and people were so like outstanded(sic) by me. They wanted to take pictures with me. They were, oh, my goodness, we've got this guy here. So it was more accepted. So I found that in order to be assimilated in this society, you need to keep your own values, but you also need to show and be open to people that you aren't taking away from them, that you are a part of their society as well.

CHURONDon’t you think a problem with a lot of different immigrant populations, they like to keep to themselves and they don't like to go out and, you know, be open with people. And if they do, they're kind of -- sometimes I've seen that people are kind of -- inject their superiority, like my way is the right way.

NNAMDIChuron, here is Howard Ross.

ROSSChuron, you've dropped one on the play here that's pretty heavy for the last two minutes that we have because you got a lot that you've put in. I mean, first of all, you know, I've often said that if people really want to get an understanding of what somebody who's Sikh or somebody's who's Muslim deals with in our culture, that they should go around and put actually the garb of the appearance on and get out into society and just see the subtle things that people encounter.

ROSSBecause you're right. It does bring up lots of stuff. Now, at the same time, what you've touched on is that we have multiple identities. And when you put on a purple turban and a Ravens jacket or whatever else, people can say, well, you may be whatever that is that wears that turban, but you're a Ravens fan, and we're both Ravens fans together. And as I said before, in the military, we both wear green, we're both soldiers.

ROSSAnd so there are times when we can tap into that commonality. I want to be really clear. I agree with you that this is a two-way street. That people have to be -- everybody has to be looking at how do we cross this divide so that we can communicate with each other. It's not just a function of having our, quote, "mainstream population" accept others, but also doing a better job of helping people who come to this country learn how to accommodate to American culture.

ROSSBut it can show up in lots of different ways. And the fact that that particular solution worked in that circumstance, somebody else might say, oh, you're making fun of us by doing it that way.

NNAMDIFinally, this from Leslie. "I was wondering if your guest is familiar with the phrase third-culture kid, someone who is or was the child of a global worker, for instance, foreign service brats, military brats, IDM brats, missionary kids, et cetera. These people, as adults, should be invaluable for their inbred cultural competencies and empathies. Barack Obama, for instance, is a third-cultural kid between living in Indonesia, Hawaii, Chicago, and being an African-American."

ROSSI'm very familiar with TCK and what it means. And there are an awful lot of people who see that those kinds of folks can give us a real insight into understanding that because they're people who grew up dealing with it. And President Obama is a good example of that.

NNAMDISee, he's also a Washingtonian because he now only says third-culture kid, but he's already got the acronym down, TCK.

ROSSExactly.

NNAMDIBecause that's what we do in Washington. Howard Ross is a business coach and consultant. He is a trainer who works on workplace diversity issues. He's a principal with the firm Cook Ross. I'm Kojo Nnamdi. Thank you all for listening.