KOJO NNAMDIWelcome back. Have there been incidents of crime or violence in your neighborhood? Have you seen police presence in your neighborhood? Has the interaction with the community and the police changed since the pandemic began? If you have opinions about this, or questions, the District stay-at-home order has not put a hold on crime, but the ongoing pandemic has made it much more difficult for the Metropolitan Police Department to do their job as usual.

KOJO NNAMDIEight-six officers have contracted coronavirus, with only 25 recovering and returning to work so far. While the District has seen a decline in violent and property crimes over the past few weeks, gun violence has increased. Joining me now is the chief of the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia, Chief Peter Newsham. Chief Newsham, thank you for joining us.

PETER NEWSHAMHey, Kojo. How are you?

NNAMDITrying to do my best in a difficult situation, working from home. But for you, how has the MPD responded to the ongoing pandemic? What adjustments has the department made?

NEWSHAMSo, we've made quite a few adjustments, and the idea behind the adjustments is really to maintain social distancing. So, one of the things we did early on, our Office of Unified Communications, when they take calls for police service, are actually asking the caller if someone in the home has tested positive. That's relayed to our officers, so they have an opportunity to put on protective equipment, if they need to.

NEWSHAMAs you know, we've increase citation release, which means when somebody is arrested, they're more likely to be released at the District station, where they sign a note to appear later in court. A lot of the functions over at D.C. Superior Court closed down. So, we want to decrease the number of people that we're bringing into custody. That's one of the ways we're doing that. We've actually increased what's called our Telephone Reporting Unit. So, if somebody has a crime, they can actually report that crime for a number of cases by calling our Telephone Reporting Unit.

NEWSHAMWe're screening prisoners before they're brought into our District stations. What that means is we ask them some questions, medical questions, if they're exhibiting any signs of COVID-19. And we'll also take their temperature. If there's any indication that they may be positive for the virus, then we send them off to the hospital to be treated before we bring them into our stations.

NEWSHAMAnd we're doing the same thing with all of our employees. So, all of our employees, as they come to work, are screened with the same type of screening. They're asked questions about how they're feeling, whether they're exhibiting any symptoms. And their temperature is taken, to ensure that we're not bringing sick folks into the building.

NEWSHAMOne of the things that's been unbelievably helpful to us is the first responder testing that the mayor has been able to get for us through the Department of Health and Dr. Nesbitt. So, I heard some of the numbers that you mentioned. We've actually had 89 members who've tested positive. Thirty-five have actually fully recovered and are back at work. And we've got 318 that have tested negative.

NEWSHAMThe testing has been incredible, the amount of officers they've been able to test. Initially, we were sending about 30 officers, three times a week for testing when this first hit. Now, we're down to sending about 10 officers who are exhibiting symptoms for testing. Unfortunately, we're still getting positive tests, which is an indication, you know, that the virus is still out there. But it's been extremely beneficial getting our folks back to work.

NEWSHAMAnd then, lastly, I'll talk a little bit about the masks. A lot of people have asked questions, what are the requirements for the police officers? The requirements for the police officers are exactly the same as for anyone else in the public. You know, if we're going into a situation, a hospital or a senior's home where we could come into contact with vulnerable populations, our police officers are required to wear a mask. If we go into a grocery store, same thing. So, the mayor's order applies to our officers, just like it would apply to anyone else.

NNAMDIChief Newsham, in a press conference on Monday, Mayor Bowser announced that, over the last 30 days, property crimes in the District have decreased by 39 percent, violent crimes by 3 percent, but gun crimes have increased and homicides are keeping pace with 2019. What are you doing to curb gun crimes, and has the approach changed since the pandemic started?

NEWSHAMI've got to tell you, Kojo, it's really kind of disturbing to see our gun violence stay on the same pace as it was last year. We had way too many homicides in the District last year. It seems that the people who are inclined to carry illegal firearms and to use those firearms in our city have continued business as usual here in the District.

NEWSHAMWe are making a lot of arrests. We've had a lot of homicide closures since the public health emergency, and we're going to continue to do that. We're going to continue to hold violent offenders accountable. We're going to continue to ensure that people who want to carry illegal firearms in the District of Columbia are held accountable. And I think if we continue along this approach, then we're going to be successful in reducing this violence.

NNAMDIHere is Helen in Washington, D.C. Helen, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

HELENGood afternoon, Kojo. Thank you for taking my call. I organize a Cop Watch D.C. And Black Lives Matter and Cop Watch collectively have joined together with other groups to respond to COVID-19 as a D.C. mutual aid network. So, I just had a comment that it's obvious that this pandemic has impacted black communities disproportionately.

HELENAnd the same could be said about the District policing. Multiple MPD officers have been filmed and photographed detaining, handcuffing, frisking and even simply talking to community members without wearing face masks or wearing face masks inadequately, not having it cover their mouths completely or not having it cover their noses, without gloves or standing less than six feet from community members, even just when talking to them.

HELENAnd MPD officers have been asked to wear their face masks or to correct them if they're not wearing them appropriately and kind of have just smirked or laughed or continue doing what they were going to do...

NNAMDI(overlapping) Allow me to have Chief Newsham respond. We don't have a great deal of time. Chief Newsham.

NEWSHAMKojo, our policing in the District is going to -- our police services in the District are going to continue. When we do, unfortunately, have to make arrest for violators in the community, we will do that. Our police officers are bound by the mayor's order, just like anyone else. One of the things that I think most of us know is that all of our police officers wear a body-worn camera.

NEWSHAMIf you see a police officer who's acting inappropriately, not wearing their mask when they should be, then we're asking folks to -- you can either bring it to our attention, or you can bring it to the Office of Police Complaints. We'll look into that. We'll review the body-worn camera. And if they need to be corrected on that behavior, we'll do so.

NNAMDIThere was another call, but apparently, that call disappeared for a second. And I know it's still too early for any data that would show us whether the pandemic is driving people to do desperate things, but are you at all concerned that, as this public health crisis continues and people are put under increased pressure of economic hardship and other stress, there will be an increase in crime?

NEWSHAMYeah, you know, we've had a lot of conversations about that. That has not materialized here in the District. We're watching very, very closely domestic violence here in the city. There's three things by which we can measure domestic violence, and I've got to caution folks that those are not the only measures of domestic violence. But the three things that we look at is calls for service. We look at reports that are taken and then we look at arrests for domestic violence.

NEWSHAMOf those three categories the only real increase we have seen since the pandemic began is calls for service. So, our reporting has remained pretty consistent. Arrests have remained pretty consistent. We think the increase in the number of calls for service is probably attributable to the fact that more folks are staying at home, and, therefore, we're probably getting multiple calls for single incidents.

NEWSHAMSo, our indicators here at MPD do not indicate any type of an increase in domestic violence. But if you talk to advocates, and we do that on a regular basis, their a volume of calls seems to be on the increase. So it wouldn't surprise me if we are seeing that. We're going to continue to watch that very carefully. We don't want vulnerable people stuck at home to be the victims of that kind of crime.

NNAMDII need you to underscore the point that you are making in response to Helen's call, because some of the things officers have to do as a routine part of their jobs cannot be done while social distancing or without touching other people. What are the instructions to officers in that case?

NEWSHAMYeah. So, you know, I think you hit the nail on the head. There are going to be exigent circumstances. There are going to be arrest situations where our officers do not have an opportunity to put on the mask. And I've got to tell you, Kojo, what I have seen from the community is I have not gotten a lot of complaints about officers not wearing their masks. In fact, to the contrary. I have gotten so much positive feedback about the work that our first responders are doing under these very, very extreme conditions, I couldn't be more proud of the men and women of the Metropolitan Police Department.

NNAMDIFinally, why shouldn't officers wear PPE all the time?

NEWSHAMWell, you know, you have to -- Kojo, you have to balance the requirement of wearing this gear with the resources and how much they're available. You know, as we move further into this pandemic, if we see that we have enough resources where we can have our officers wear it all the time, then we will do that. But, at this point, I think, as you know, a lot of folks around the country, these resources, these masks, personal protective equipment, if you overuse it, it can become scarce.

NEWSHAMAnd we don't want to be in a position, as a police department, to be consuming personal protective equipment that might be better used by our health care professionals or our paramedics. So, we're kind of trying to operate collaboratively with those groups to ensure that we're not, like I said, consuming those resources to the point where they run out.

NNAMDIPeter Newsham is the chief of the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia. Chief Newsham, thank you so much for joining us.

NEWSHAMYes, sir. Stay inside and stay healthy, Kojo. Thank you.

NNAMDIThat's what I'm trying to do, here. the MPD's experience during this public health crisis is one side of the equation. Community groups and violence interruption programs that use mediation to deescalate situations of violence have also had to adapt to the situation. Joining me now is Jenny Gathright. She's a WAMU reporter. Jenny, thank you for joining us.

JENNY GATHRIGHTThanks, Kojo.

NNAMDIAnd Clayton Rosenberg is director of operations for Cure the Street Sites in Ward 7 and 8. He's also executive director of the Alliance of Concerned Men. Clayton Rosenberg, thank you for joining us.

CLAYTON ROSENBERGThank you. I'm the chief of staff of ACM.

NNAMDIOkay. Chief of staff, as opposed to executive director. Jenny Gathright, do we know if the increase in gun violence is part of a larger trend?

GATHRIGHTWell, if you look at homicides -- and most of the homicides in D.C. are shootings -- homicides are on pace with last year. But if you take a kind of longer view, in general, homicides are up. Last year saw more than any year in the previous decade. But if we look specifically at this moment in the pandemic, I think compared to other major cities, D.C.'s crime rate numbers are -- there's a similar trend, here, which is that, you know, many categories of property crimes are down, but homicides are continuing to happen.

GATHRIGHTWe're seeing the same thing down the street in Baltimore, where property crimes are down. But the end of March was a particularly violent time, with the spate of shootings and homicides are keeping pace with last year. And that's something that we're seeing in cities across the country during this pandemic.

NNAMDIClayton Rosenberg, through the last few weeks, the District has seen an increase in gun violence. How is Cure the Streets looking to combat this surge?

ROSENBERGSo, with this whole just new -- this is a new thing for us. You know, I think no one had to deal with something of this nature before. So, try to give public education to the community, but also understand that our job is to prevent gun violence. It has caused us to put together new strategies, innovative strategies on how to deal with individuals that are high risk in our communities, targeted communities.

NNAMDIHow are community residents, Clayton, responding to the increase in gun violence?

ROSENBERGFrom my perspective, just being on the frontline in the communities, I've noticed that the residents are so -- they're going through certain things that just -- it's new for them. So, they're dealing with the COVID-19 and trying to understand what it actually is and trying to understand how this is, you know, adding to the continued gun violence in their community. But also trying to survive, trying to, you know -- some of them lost their job. Some of them don't -- their students not in school anymore. So, it's just a whole new survival mode that kicked in, and they're just trying to figure it all out.

NNAMDILet's go to the phones. Here is Attorney General Karl Racine. Karl Racine, thank you for joining us. You're on the air. Go ahead, please.

KARL RACINEHi, Kojo. Hey, Jenny. Clayton, it's always good to be with you. Sorry we're not seeing each other. Thank you for what you're doing in Ward 7 and Ward 8. Kojo, I just want to really reiterate something that the chief said. And I do agree with the chief, that the police officers are out here, you know, really, at great risk. And what they're doing in all our communities, you know, really deserves a praise and applause.

KARL RACINEThe Cure the Streets team is different than law enforcement, of course. We don't have badges, nor do we have, you know, guns, and we don't arrest people. What we seek to do with Cure the Streets is to interrupt violence before it happens by having incredible people like Clayton and a fantastic team in the streets of the District of Columbia literally seeking to deescalate violence and stop retaliation.

KARL RACINEAnd as Clayton indicated, with this COVID-19 pandemic, we've had to adjust our game, as well. And so we've allowed more virtual performance, if you will, by our Cure the Streets team. A lot of cell phone calls, a lot of Zoom and other, Webex, and other ways to collaborate, not only with each other but also with folks that we don't want to get into violence.

KARL RACINEAnd then we're also doing other things. Clayton and his team and the other Cure the Streets members are partnered with Martha's Table to get food out to senior residents, to people who, you know, who are hard to reach in the District of Columbia. And to get the message about social distancing out.

KARL RACINENot everybody looks at channel 4, channel 7, channel 9. More people listen to your show, of course, Kojo. But there's nothing like being out there right with everybody who you know and trust, letting them know exactly how it is, what it is they have to do to stay safe.

NNAMDIGlad you could share that with us. That is the attorney general for the District of Columbia, Karl Racine. Attorney General Racine, I just read a piece yesterday in which you are making the argument that you do not think that gun crimes in the District of Columbia should be prosecuted by federal officials.

RACINEThat's right. We did make that point. And you'll remember about last year, the then U.S. Attorney Jessie Liu, Chief Newsham and the mayor seemed to be supportive of sending gun cases over to the Federal District Court. You know, I voiced concern then because I certainly believe that the D.C. local courts have judges who can handle these matters, and that sending them over to federal court where there's less D.C. accountability was a bad precedence.

RACINEAnd so we joined in a lawsuit that was filed by another group, and we think the arguments are strong. So, we have a respectful disagreement with our folks in D.C. government and the U.S. Attorney.

NNAMDIOkay, Mr. Attorney General. Thank you very much for calling. Or the correct term is, okay, General Racine. Thank you very much for calling. Jenny Gathright, are any other kinds of crimes increasing? Can we co-relate the increase directly to the pandemic?

GATHRIGHTSo, I think it's too early to draw any conclusions about the effect the pandemic has had, particularly on violent crime, which is, you know, about the same or a little bit less than it was during this time period of last year. There has been that significant decrease in property crimes largely driven by declining theft, just because people are out and about less, probably.

GATHRIGHTBut I think, you know, one thing that I heard from violence interrupters and experts that I've spoken with is that people are struggling right now. That struggle is going to continue. And if people's needs, you know, material needs aren't met, they wouldn't be surprised to see more robberies, burglaries, crimes that are rooted in desperate economic need.

GATHRIGHTAnd then, in a longer term, there's a concern that some of the structural issues that drive high violent crime rates in the first place, like poverty and a lack of opportunity, will only be exacerbated by the economic crisis we're in right now. But I think it's too early to sort of make any claims from the data that we're seeing about that.

NNAMDIClayton Rosenberg, for listeners who may not be familiar with violence interruption programs, and we did hear Attorney General Racine explain some of it, but can you explain some more what the Cure the Streets program does?

ROSENBERGYeah, so the Cure Violence model, that's what the Cure the Streets program has adopted, it's a program that uses public health strategies that treat violence as a disease. And it can be treated, it can be interrupted, and it can be stopped from spreading, almost similar to COVID-19 if we are, you know, just understand PPE and understand social distancing.

ROSENBERGBut the gun violence prevention program literally employees credible and influential individuals who have the key relationships with high-risk individuals in our targeted neighborhoods in D.C. And then we use the public health evidence and approaches and data driven with, you know, best practices to cure the violence from our neighborhoods.

NNAMDIThe attorney general mentioned your partnership with Martha's Table. Explain what that's all about.

ROSENBERGYeah. So, we have a partnership with Martha's Table, Mom's Demand Action. We pretty much go in and help pass food out to the residents in our targeted neighborhoods, helping Martha's Table put together baskets. And just trying to, you know, do the best we can for our community in this time of need, because we know that everyone will have the same opportunities. And this is just a really difficult time for a lot of key folks in our community that really depend on certain things that they don't have access to anymore.

NNAMDIYou've also been doing educational work in communities about the virus. Tell us about that.

ROSENBERGYeah. So, we have created public education flyers and forms, in which we pass out to the community in our targeted areas. And then we also passed out some PPE masks and gloves and just educated them on social distancing to really help them understand how serious it is with COVID-19, and how we all must, you know, look out for each other. But we have to make sure that we're all safe. Just giving them the right resources that they need, what the ability that we have, you know, being able to provide.

NNAMDIHow about the Metropolitan Police Department? What can the MPD do to help?

ROSENBERGI think this is a really interesting time, because MPD has to be innovative. Just how we utilize the Zoom calls and we utilize all of the different technologies to increase our presence and build better relationships in the community. I think MPD has to definitely come up with innovative strategies to fix what's going on. I think this will be the perfect time to mend some relationships in the community, because of all the things that are going on now. This is the time to really, you know, chime down and think about ways in which they can begin to do more. Do more and build a stronger relationship between the community and the MPD.

NNAMDIJenny Gathright, do we know anything about how officer patrol has changed during this pandemic?

GATHRIGHTWell, arrests are significantly down. At one point, they were down by 75 percent. I've spoken with defense lawyers who tell me that the lockup list -- which is, you know, the number of people who are detained for crimes each day -- is significantly down.

GATHRIGHTYou know, I listened to a community meeting, where an MPD officer was saying that, you know, they're focusing less on small infractions, trying to issue citations for those instead of arrests, and focusing more on bigger things like gun recoveries. So, it will be really interesting to see if this translates to any longer term changes in policing tactics, or just the approach to policing the city, as Clayton kind of eluded to there.

NNAMDIClayton Rosenberg, are you at all concerned that the stresses of this pandemic and all the economic hardships it's creating will increase violent crimes in the communities where you work? Are there now individuals on your radar who were not there before?

ROSENBERGYes and yes. I am more concerned, because when people get into survival mode, we understand that they're willing to do everything to provide for their families. And with doing everything you sometimes convert to violence or you convert to things that you wasn't used to. Because we have seen individuals who wasn't on our radar before now become individuals that we have to look at as a potential high risk. They were, you know, no risk at all, low risk. But now, since this whole thing has really, you know, impacted our community so hard, now they have to survive. So, we're seeing that, definitely.

NNAMDIAnd I'm afraid that's about all the time we have. Clayton Rosenberg is director of operations for Cure the Street sites in ward 7 and 8. He is chief of staff for the Alliance of Concerned Men. Clayton Rosenberg, thank you for joining us.

ROSENBERGThank you so much, and everyone stay safe, healthy and inclusive with your families and the community.

NNAMDIJenny Gathright is a WAMU reporter. Jenny, thank you for joining us. This segment on crime and law enforcement during the pandemic was produced by Richard Cunningham. And our conversation with the Reverend Timothy Cole on contracting and recovering from the coronavirus was produced by Julie Depenbrock.

NNAMDIComing up tomorrow, on The Politics Hour, we will get an update on D.C. council races and look at how Virginia, Maryland and D.C. are navigating elections during the pandemic. And the University of Virginia's Larry Sabato weighs in on what coronavirus means for the presidential elections. That all is coming up tomorrow, at noon. Until then, thank you for listening, and stay safe. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.