KOJO NNAMDIYou're tuned in to The Kojo Nnamdi Show on WAMU 88.5. Welcome. D.C. has long been known as a jazz town, but in recent years iconic clubs like Bohemian Caverns have closed and others like Howard Theater have struggled financially. What is the state of jazz today and how is that reflected in the landscape of live music venues? Joining me to have this conversation is Davey Yarborough. He is the Director of Jazz Studies at Duke Ellington School of the Arts. Davey Yarborough, good to see you again.

DAVEY YARBOROUGHYeah, same here.

NNAMDIAlso with us is Amy K Bormet. She is a pianist, vocalist, and composer and the Director of the Washington Women in Jazz Festival, the Founder of Strange Women Records, and the host of WPFW's Jazz Stories. Amy K Bormet, thank you for joining us.

AMY K BORMETThanks for having me.

NNAMDIAnd last but not least, DeAndrey Howard is the Manager of Alice's Jazz and Cultural Society and an old friend. DeAndrey, good to see you again.

DEANDREY HOWARDGood to see you, man, yes sir.

NNAMDIDavey, you're a legendary flutist and saxophonist in this town. How did you get your start in the local jazz scene?

YARBOROUGHI guess starting the local jazz scene would have been in my senior year in high school, when I witnessed my first big band performance under direction of Bobby Felder, who at that time was the director of music at Federal City College. And like I said it was the first big band that I had ever seen live. And, of course, I got excited. And I went up and talked to them afterwards and he offered me a scholarship to Federal City College.

NNAMDIWere you playing before that?

YARBOROUGHI was playing before that. I played rhythm and blues place -- venues when the clubs used to be called, well, you know. The clubs being called go-go clubs, which were Masonic Temple and -- yeah, there were quite a few. But eventually the clubs didn't become go-go clubs anymore. It was go-go bands -- the bands that played became go-go bands. So you can figure out about how long that was. But I played a lot of the rhythm and blues groups and I played a few blues groups before then. But once I got to Federal City College and met Dr. Art Dawkins and hung out and played with Bobby Felder's band. And met Bill Harris of the Pig Foot and I can go on and on and on and on.

NNAMDIWe don't mind.

YARBOROUGHAnd there were all kinds -- as a matter of fact, I even played with my high school band director Jesse Adams at Jacky Lee's Lounge on 1st Street. And at that time there were a lot of neighborhood jazz places. And, you know, that's part of what we're talking about now.

NNAMDIHow would you describe the scene say 30, 40 years ago?

YARBOROUGHThirty, forty years ago when I first started teaching at Ellington?

NNAMDIExactly. Exactly.

YARBOROUGHIt was -- as a matter of fact it was somewhat on the decline even at that point. You had the larger venues coming in and a lot of the small places couldn't afford to maintain the live jazz. So like I said it was beginning to decline there. A lot of things that -- a lot of issues affected that. I can't remember the year that Vincent Reed, superintendent of the school --

NNAMDISchool super intendent--

YARBOROUGHRelaxed the requirement of having music in all of the secondary schools and the impact of that, which didn't revert until Dr. Floretta McKenzie came back and reinstated it. But by that time, a lot of things had fallen apart and they've been trying to rebuild ever since.

NNAMDIWhy and when did you leave the nightclub scene?

YARBOROUGHWhoo, why did I leave the nightclub scene? As a part of the results of, you know, what was going on in the city and the places closing down and the fact that you couldn't really survive as an artist here just on the nightclub scene. But the nightclub scene is grueling. When I started working at one of our old places, Moore's Love and Peace, we were working six nights a week. And we had to work six nights a week to make ends meet. But the venues would actually, you know, pay you for working those. And like I said, it wasn't the greatest salary in the world. But eventually the day started -- went from six to four to weekends to two to one. But the salaries were not going up when the numbers of days that you were going to be there --

NNAMDIYou said you would probably be making less today than you did 30 years ago.

YARBOROUGHActually yes, yeah, definitely, now that I'm thinking about it, yeah.

NNAMDIDeAndrey, what were local jazz venues like when you first started out? I met DeAndrey more than 30 years ago at the aforementioned Moore's Love and Peace Restaurant and that was right down the street from Mr. Wise, which was right down the street from the Pig Foot. Those are all jazz clubs on that Rhode Island Avenue strip at that time. What were the venues like when you first started out, DeAndrey?

HOWARDTo me they were really hard, because I come in as a trumpet player and my brother, he had already been -- he's out there. They all knew him. So they're looking like great expectations for me. And I wasn't given it up. Even the club owner, Mr. Moore, Mr. Y, they knew who I was and they called me "Little Joe". But Mr. Y would just say, "Man, you need to practice practice." Mr. Moore, you know, how he was a little high voice, he would just say something in that high voice and then shake his head and walk away, you know. And so they were hard, because all the great musicians like, you know, Shirley Horn would come into Moore's, (unintelligible).

NNAMDIThat's what I mean.

HOWARDThey would sit right at the table under my horn and look at me and just be shaking their head. I got to keep playing, you know. And I come off the stage. I tell this story all the time, because Shirley Horn said, "Little Joe, come here." And I would come and she would say, "I hear what you're saying, but you ain't saying it yet." And (unintelligible) they would all just be cursing me out all the time. And my brother said, because they do that, Mr. Y, all the places, they said, "They see potential in you."

HOWARDBut coming up I just had it hard, but it was a good hard, you know, because they just stayed on my case. They see me and walk by or come on stage, they just grunt. And Shirley would have a drink and she would look at me and twist her face up. Then have a drink of a drink --

NNAMDIWearing her dark glasses all the time.

HOWARDAnd her dark glasses, look back up and then look at her drink and be shaking her head. I mean, Lawrence Wheatley, he would look over them glasses, you know, because of the one step down. I would go up there when you're trying to get your legs and I was nowhere about the thing. And I would get up there and try to play. Maurice and them guys they just (unintelligible) push you out the way. I mean, they were harsh. And like I tell everybody, the musicians today, I said, "If you had to come up when I came up, these cats, the club owners would let you know, if you're stinking up the place."

NNAMDIExactly right.

HOWARDYou know, and just hope you would get it together. And I just stuck with it and listened. Then matter of fact, when we first got here I was telling Dave, me and him, played in a band called the what -- The Sons of Nature, John Freeman, that's when I first met Dave.

YARBOROUGHThat wasn't a jazz group.

HOWARDNah.

YARBOROUGHBut it was headed in that direction.

HOWARDExactly.

NNAMDIWell, I always thought you were good DeAndrey.

HOWARDThank you.

NNAMDIEven though I'm not the expert that Shirley Horn is. (laugh) I thought you were good in those days at that time. Amy, you grew up here. You studied with Davey Yarborough at Duke Ellington, how did the local scene support the start of your career?

BORMETSure. Well, these two guys are two people that I saw a lot growing up here. And I moved to D.C. actually to study with Mr. Yarborough, when I went to Duke Ellington. I had been living in Oregon and my father was living out here and he said, you got to check out this spot. I heard about this Duke Ellington School of the Arts. And I'm like, I'm sorry. They named a school after Duke Ellington? I'm very intrigued by this. And so I came up there and I had an audition and he was like, Yeah, you want to come play in the band? Come hang out. Come every day. You can play jazz with us.

BORMETAnd I was like, oh, so that was, you know, I had sort of a hybrid education because I had at the base of all this music making a foundation of music education that was just absolutely fabulous. I went to Duke Ellington School of the Arts. I went to the University of Michigan and studied with Geri Allen. And then I came back here and went to Howard University with Fred Irby and Charlie Young and all the wonderful people over there. So I have this hybrid where I'd have a music education foundation that I think a lot of jazz musicians, who are playing now who are in their 20s and 30s have that background that they really learned to play the music in school.

BORMETBut at the same time Davey Yarborough was, you know, taking us out to play gigs when were at Ellington all the time. So we had, you know, we had to bring all the equipment and we joked about, you know, the elevator broke. The building now is gorgeous, but back in the day the elevator broke, because it caught on fire. And so one day I had to carry the bass drum. There was no, you know, no supposition for the fact that I was a girl carrying the bass drum in like three inch crushed velvet leather shoes. And I went down the stairs just with the bass drum and just, you know -- it was really exciting. It was an exciting time to be --

NNAMDIYou mean you rolled down the stairs with the bass drum.

BORMETI did with the bass drum. So, you know, it was good for me. I never had much of an ego going in. So it wasn't too much of a problem. Thank God. But, yeah, we drug all of our equipment around on a tiny little bus and played all over town. And I started going out to HR57, which was, you know, back in the day had lots of jam sessions, when I was in high school with my friend Herb Scott who now runs the Capital Hill Jazz Foundation. And, you know, we would play down there.

BORMETAnd then I eventually ended up getting a gig down there. I played Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And then after that show was over, we'd go up to U Street and then hang out at Utopia with DeAndrey and cause trouble. And it would be some hot summer nights hanging out on the street.

HOWARDYeah.

BORMETYeah, just remembering very clearly on U Street when they put in the smoking ban and all the people would come out of Café Nema and Twins and just everybody. All the jazz musicians are smoking on the street. I think it's been a good thing they put in that smoking ban, because I've seen a lot less smoking in the jazz community.

NNAMDIYou made a few references and I got to clarify. HR57 was actually the name of a bill that Congressman John Connors had introduced into the House of Representatives having to do with jazz. And you mentioned Geri Allen, who inspired so many people here for so long who we lost last year. I think it was we lost Geri Allen. And she will definitely be missed. But there are others, who want to join this conversation. Here's Bengi in northern Virginia. Bengi, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BENGIHi. It's great to be on the air. I really love everyone, who's in the studio right now.

NNAMDIGo right ahead, Bengi.

BENGISo my question is I'm a high school senior and an amateur jazz musician from northern Virginia and I was just wondering if me and others listening could hear some places that me and others could go to find like jam sessions or just to play with people.

NNAMDIWell, I know that there's a jam session at Tacoma Station. I think it's on Tuesday nights starting around seven o'clock. You might want to try your hand there. These others might be able to tell you about some other places.

BORMETYeah. There's a great resource in D.C. called Capital Bop, capitalbop.com and they have a listing of all the jazz events that are happening in the city. And two they will definitely have on there that I love, two of my favorite jam sessions are Wednesday nights at Mr. Henry's, is the Capital Hill Jazz Jam, and that's from 8:00 to 11:00, And there's no cover, just come on through and buy some nachos. And then Sundays is the D.C. Jazz Jam and that also has no cover. So that's a little bit earlier. I think it's 6:30 to 9:30. So both of those actually this next week will be taken over by the Washington Women in Jazz Festival.

NNAMDIWe'll talk about that in a little while.

BORMETWhich is my festival. So you'll see a lot of lovely women will be out there playing all the instruments. But you are more than welcome to come, because it's an open jam session.

HOWARDAnd we at Jack's, we are starting -- this is our second month. We have a C3 organization that we hired them and they do spoken word and open mic for jazz. And then a lot of people don't know about Columbia Station up there with Peter Edelman.

BORMETYeah.

HOWARDHe's on what? Saturdays and Sundays.

BORMETYeah.

HOWARDSo it's quite a bit of jazz jam sessions in the city. And this is the beginning over at Alice's Jazz and Cultural Society. We kick this off and then we have one that's going to be exclusively jazz and we're hoping to pour the great piano players in there, you know, to host that.

NNAMDIBengi, thank you very much for your call. You too can send us a tweet @kojoshow or email to kojo@wamu.org. How do you think D.C.'s jazz culture compares to other cities? 800-433-8850. And then there's another venue that we have to mention, but I think I will let Dick Smith do that.

HOWARDYeah.

NNAMDIDick Smith, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DICK SMITHOh, wow, I'm sitting here listening. I feel like a dinosaur.

NNAMDINo, but you're not.

HOWARDYou ain't man.

SMITHI really feel like a dinosaur, because when I came -- I came to Washington to play football and I came in the 60s. So I guess my first year was around '67. And Bobby Mitchell took me, who was a football player hall famer. He took me down to a place down on 7th Street and I met Mary Jefferson was playing.

NNAMDIThat's my girl, used to be my neighbor.

SMITHPeter (word?) and it was John Malachi and it was a guy named, it was Mary's husband, Mark Hill playing drums. He was playing in this little place. And I was singing a little bit. I thought I was a little singer. But I didn't know how far out of tune I was especially for jazz, because jazz was a very sophisticated culture. And so after that after meeting those people I met most of the people who did jazz in the town like Rick Henderson and Hilton Felton. Then I knew Shirley Horn and Bill.

NNAMDIBill Harris?

SMITHYeah. And then played -- So I started playing at these clubs. I even played for a while -- I played the Cellar Door. I did the Blues Alley. I did Cafe Lautrec. I did just about every jazz club, because I was doing jazz with guys like Ellsworth Gibson. I worked with Ellsworth for a very long long time. And he played everywhere. Washington was a particular type of town. Most of the jazz guys, who were working, the union, it was separated. It was two unions. It was a white one and a black one. And so they finally kind of merged together and they were getting jobs that way. And a lot of guys worked private gigs, because D.C. was loaded with private things. Then I became part of an organization called Let Them Play. It was run by a guy named Tony Taylor.

NNAMDIYeah. Mary Jefferson was a part of that too.

YARBOROUGHA whole lot of people.

SMITHYeah. I was on the board for -- I think I forgot what year, because I don't even want to try that.

NNAMDIBut tell us what you're doing now.

SMITHWell, I'm at Westminster Church now. I mean, it was like a spinoff. We were looking for a place to play and trying to preserve the music. And I think our mission more is the cultural thing. We're trying to build a community. A lot of musicians they're young and they want to play. They're looking for gigs. And we really didn't start with gigs. We existed, because jazz musicians just wasn't getting paid. I mean, they were doing jam sessions and all that, a lot of that was going on.

SMITHBut they were going to places, playing private gigs. And then they were doing the prison and Tony had them all over. But at Westminster we decided we got into a program with Brian Hamilton and the church was real good. And we start out with, you know, with something that we were actually paying guys for the gig to do jazz. And so that's basically --

NNAMDIAnd Westminster Church is on 6th Street Southwest.

SMITHOn 6th Street, yeah.

NNAMDI6th Street Southwest and it's generally crowded.

HOWARD4th.

NNAMDI4th Street Southwest. And it's generally crowded.

SMITHWe've been there. This is our 20th year.

NNAMDIYep, been going on for 20 years. Dick, thank you very much for your call.

SMITHAll right.

NNAMDIWe're going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue this conversation on jazz venues. We got an email from Roger who says, "Personally I'm a jazz fan and I own a number of recordings from the 1920s and 30s. That said, if you turn back the clock 200 years, we would find Washington full of harpsichord music and people dancing the minuet. Times change. Tastes change." I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking about jazz in Washington and venues yesterday and today. We're talking with Davey Yarborough. He's the Director of Jazz Studies at Duke Ellington School of the Arts. DeAndrey Howard is the Manager of Alice's Jazz and Cultural Society. They are both musicians, of course. And Amy K Bormet is a pianist, vocalist, and composer. She directs the Washington Women in Jazz Festival and Founder of Strange Woman Records. She also hosts WPRFW's Jazz Stories. Amy you were talking about when you came here Duke Ellington High School, Davey Yarborough taking you guys out on gigs. You rolling down the stairs with the drum.

BORMETGood visual.

NNAMDIObviously there was a lot of support in those days. How do you compare the support you had then with now?

BORMETI mean, for me, personally I still feel like there's a ton of support for jazz and for great instrumental music and vocal music here in D.C. So I think with the last 10 years or so I've seen an up swell of support in the ability of the jazz community to connect online and to inform each other about what's happening on the scene with capitalbop.com and their event listings. I've seen a lot of support for people coming out to shows. Working with the Washington Women In Jazz Festival I've seen just tons and tons of different people, who are moving into the city and are interested in the music.

BORMETAnd I think that D.C. has sold, you know, you watch these D.C. cool videos they put up online. They've sold the city as a hip place to go see music and to see performers. And I think there's a certain flexibility that we've been having. We have to play in different places, because Bohemian Caverns isn't around anymore. You know, we're going to have to play down the street in a different spot or, you know, in Dupont Circle at a bistro or wherever we can get in. But wherever the music happens in the city it's really top level and I think people really really enjoy it.

NNAMDIYou mentioned D.C. promoting itself as a jazz city. Here's a clip from the District's tourism campaign asking the question, "What is D.C. cool?"

SPOKESPERSONLike salsa and jazz and rock all night. From twilight's last gleaming to the dawn's early light, it's the caverns where Louie, Miles, and the Duke have all played.

NNAMDINow how has the scene changed most drastically? You talked about when you could walk from, I guess U Street over to Adams Morgan and run into a whole lot of venues. How has that changed? And I'll ask all of you the same question.

BORMETYeah. For me, the starting out that was my first introduction to really meeting as many people as possible was walking down U Street on a Thursday night and popping into spots and seeing who was doing what. And sitting in with people and talking to people. And that's actually how I met one of my favorite musicians, Gabrielle Murphy was because I went to see DeAndrey and he was like, "Yo, this girl. You guys are both girls." And I was like, "Yeah. I'm so --" I mean it's like, "But you all can really play." And I was like, "Thank you." You know, and so then he pulled her out of Utopia. She was playing a solo. After the solo, he pulled her out onto U Street and was like, "Look, you need to be friends."

HOWARDHired her all the time.

BORMETRight. And now we work together all the time. She's up in New York. And, you know, these types of things led to a really ground swell of people just being able to meet each other, network, and talk face to face. And I think that has kind of faded a little bit, because of the lack of a concentrated area of jazz clubs. But I do see it happening online. I do see people coming out to jam sessions. You know, Mr. Henry's on Wednesday is always popping with a lot of musicians coming there.

BORMETAnd so there's these spots that musicians still come out and congregate. But it's a different thing when everybody had their gigs lining up and down the street. Who's playing at Twins? Who's playing at Nema? Who's playing at Utopia? You know, who's playing Joe Joe's? Who's playing at HR57? Who's playing at Bohemian Caverns? Like, up and down the whole street. Dukem, all this area of Ethiopian restaurants where it seemed like every single restaurant had jazz in it. So that's difficult without having that. But now I think that things are hopefully are starting to pick back up for our community.

NNAMDIDavey, how have you seen the scene change?

YARBOROUGHActually, with the onset of the generation with Amy and a few others, that became the upswing and it's ebbed and flowed. And like I said, hopefully it's on the incline again. And, you know, we talked about the Bohemian Caverns and the history behind it, which I think is paramount in terms of assisting the --

NNAMDIWe're going to talk in a little bit about what your plans are for Bohemian Cavern. What you're doing with that.

YARBOROUGHThat whole history -- going back to the days when that club was so hot, there was a lot. Like I said, it declined. And now with jazz actually getting into the educational institutions it has helped, because we can expose the young people. We can continue to expose the young people. But we still have ebb and flow with that as well, because the educational system doesn't really -- I guess with the advent of STEM and the battle with steam does not see as much importance of the arts in terms of total education. So hopefully that's on the upswing as well. But I think documentation and promotion and preservation are going to assist in that as well.

NNAMDIDeAndrey.

HOWARDWell, for me, from the old days to the present with the clubs like when they was all, like Amy said, where they were all close by. You know, the late Roy Hargrove and when he would come to town when the Utopia was still open, he'd go by HR, come by. Nema, everybody, Utopia hoping, then at the end when were finished up about 2:30, Bohemia had a jam session that started -- what -- about 3:00 and that reminds me of the old days.

HOWARDBut then after the Utopia closed down then Bohemia -- when Café Nema -- because like she said, it reminded me back then when I was coming up (unintelligible) those places. And, you know, they weren't there yet but you had a place -- when your gig ended you could go to someone else's gig and meet -- yep, and meet other musicians. And, like she said, when I met her and Gabriel, you know, and met Reginald Cyntje when he came into town because he walked into Utopia.

HOWARDAnd when the cats walked in with a horn or something or somebody walk in -- I'm the old guy now so the old guy say to me. I say, can you play that thing in your horn case? And the first day Reggie started laughing and stuff, you know, and I say, come on and play. I say, take your horn out. Then cats thought it was jam session, but it wasn't a jam session. It was my gig, but I know so many people and I would allow them to play. And so many -- I met so many a day, students, they come up and say, well Mr. Yarborough told me to come by here. Who is DeAndrey? I said, I'm DeAndrey. I say, come on, come on, play, sing or do something, so --

HOWARDBut the scene has now died out again, but you need -- it's still here, but you need more places. That's why we, over at Alice's, are getting ready to implement some jam sessions, because you need more places to have that jam session so the cats -- and open to the cats so they will feel they can come in and sit in.

NNAMDIWhat about the financial picture for musicians, today, Davey Yarborough?

YARBOROUGHWhat I've always taught at Ellington was when you're an artist, you have to be creative in terms of how you plan your survival and your career. And from my experience with what was going on in the nightclubs and all the time during that time -- once I started teaching, it was a lot easier for me, because I had another outlet. But I was teaching the music, I was teaching jazz. And so I stayed abreast of what was going on. I had to stay current, because I had to show the students, you know, that the old man could do a little bit of what he's trying to tell them to do.

YARBOROUGHBut at the same time I could tell them about the industry and tell them about the business end, which really wasn't promoted a lot even on the college level, that there are several ways for you to make a living in the arts and it's not always just about being on the stage and playing. So we talked about composing and protecting your work when you started. And just like Amy has started to, Washington women in jazz, organizations in support of -- again, you don't have to totally leave your area, but you can do that as well. Because we knew people like Larry Emmett and Dick Morgan, who were doctors and lawyers, but they were consummate musicians.

YARBOROUGHSo what I was trying to do or had been trying to do at Ellington and still today is show that a young person has more options now than they did before. And we just want to make sure that they take a path that will allow them to sustain themselves while they enjoy and recreate this art.

NNAMDIOkay. A few more people want to join this conversation. Here is Jay in Chevy Chase, Maryland. Jay, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JAYYes. I just wanted to mentioned how the audiences have changed at the clubs where they don't really want to listen to the music anymore. There's just constant talking and it's really disturbing. And it's not just jazz clubs. The Hamilton has gone that way. HR 57 has been -- it was always like that I guess. But it's just disturbing and I used to go to clubs way more than I do now but it's mainly, because of that conversation going on.

NNAMDIWell, you won't find anyone drinking alcohol at Alice's. (laugh)

HOWARDThat's right.

NNAMDIAnd that's one of the reasons why you probably won't hear a whole lot of talking at Alice's.

HOWARDThat's right. Can I speak on that?

NNAMDIYes.

HOWARDOkay. For the caller, that's why we built Alice, because from the years of my playing, I've been in the club, the smoke. I'm playing my horn they was sitting around me blowing smoke right in my face, unaware of it. And the drinking and people getting to talking and hollering at the women. So here all the patrons always laugh, because the women come in and say, I know this because they know what I stress. I don't have to get up on the stage and say, please hold your conversation to a minimum because they know it's a listening room.

HOWARDPeople come into Alice's, it's a beautiful place that's set up for jazz music. And we sell dinners and all that jazz, but you come in and you can sit and hear the music. Last night we had Lionel Lyles and his quintet there doing their original straight ahead jazz, packed house. The people loved it. So you come -- our pitch, you come to Alice's Jazz and Cultural Society. You will hear every nuance of the music. (laugh)

NNAMDIYou can also do that at Westminster Church also. You won't hear a whole lot of talking there. But the changes that we're talking about, what's the blame for these changes? Is it the rising cost of rent? Is it the pushing out of longtime residents or a combination of all of those things?

HOWARDAll of them.

BORMETYes.

YARBOROUGHWow, I think it happened long before, but I hear people talking about gentrification, but I don't think that that's the deal in Washington, D.C. I hit on it a little bit on the fact that the education system backed off the promotion of arts as well as when that happened also the culture changed a little bit. The street culture changed a little bit. I mean, at one time when I was -- prior to the Sons of Nature I could walk from Blair Road to 16th Street up to Silver Spring with my horn in my hand.

HOWARDNot now.

YARBOROUGH...going to rehearsal or something like that. Like I said, culture change a little bit and the combination of one watering down the arts programs in the schools and then the fact that an artist must have their instrument at home and at school. And when the schools no longer feel it's safe enough to let the students take instruments home, those who could not afford instruments no longer had a vehicle to practice with, and let alone even private lessons. Parents get instruments and say, Oh no, you can't take that to school, because you might get robbed on the way back and forth or whatever. It could get damaged, you could leave it on the bus, all of these types of things.

YARBOROUGHSo a young person, who doesn't have consistent access, and that's when they can study and go home and practice what they've been learning and come back and bring a product they develop, that development process has been seriously scarred. And support -- the only way to counter that is that you have a way that there are instruments at the school and instruments at home.

NNAMDII was going to ask this question, but I'll let Giovanni in Washington ask it. Giovanni, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

GIOVANNIHi. This is Giovanni Russonello. I'm with CapitalBop and I'm grateful that Amy's mentioned us a couple times. And I'm grateful to this whole panel that you guys are bringing up so many of these salient issues. The breath of like kind of community thinking between the three of you is amazing and I kind of wanted to touch on that. How would you say that the city can go about supporting artists like yourselves, who are not just musician practitioners, but are actually organizers? And I think there's a deep longstanding tradition of that in jazz.

GIOVANNIAs the pianist Vijay Iyer says, The history of jazz musicians is a history of community organizing. So it's beautiful to hear from -- and I think Kojo -- I salute you for choosing these three people, who are leaders of organizations but are also themselves musicians. How can the city go about supporting people like yourselves in building community around the music, welcoming audiences in, new and old?

NNAMDIEspecially since you just heard the clip that the city promotes itself as being a jazz city, do you think the city needs to be offering more support to jazz musicians?

BORMETYes, definitely. I think that what I'd like to see is just direct money being given to jazz musicians, being given to jazz organizations in the city without these hoops of trying to fit into some sort of grant that might not fit what they have already presented. The artists have come up with creative ideas. Women come up to me every year with creative ideas that they want to do at the Washington Women and Jazz Festival and I have to find creative ways to support that.

BORMETAnd what I'd like to see is the city just saying, yes, that's a good idea. Here's some money. And I think that it becomes increasingly difficult when you're trying to compete against several different other worthy organizations in the city, that they need to take the time aside and say, this is what jazz has brought to DC and we want to support that. So I'd love to see some funding set aside just for jazz musicians directly.

HOWARDAnd I would like to see -- I'm not going to get real political, but what I see in this city with the music, the people, who have the money, they pick and choose what places they want to support. And at Alice's Jazz and Cultural Society, the people need -- instead of picking themselves they need to talk, get a panel like these guys and get the musicians -- talk to the musicians, get their ideas, because the ideas that the people with the money come up with, I don't agree with any of them. You know, we haven't got no support. The support we get from Alice's is from the people, who donate and the people who come there.

HOWARDWe got one grant at the beginning and it was the less grant possible. And in talking to Alice's (unintelligible) why they do that, say because break it down, every city has a click. And the musicians aren't clicking. I mean, the musicians, we all get along so they need to have a panel and get some musicians and presenters of the music to do like I do. I promote -- at Alice's I talk about where you can go to hear other jazz. I name all the other clubs, because nobody's in competition, because we are all jazz clubs.

YARBOROUGHAlso politically, when you're talking how can the city, the city is going to respond and I think they will respond, our elected officials will respond when we can make enough noise that they actually get a chance to hear it. So we have to be active as artists and going downtown and sitting in on sessions and also having a forums like this. Kojo, I have to salute you for --

HOWARDYeah, man.

YARBOROUGH-- for having, you know, this forum that allows our voices to be heard. But I think the louder we can get our voices heard the better the chances of these things happening.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. I am Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking jazz venues in Washington. And before we go to the phones I have to talk a little bit with my guests about exactly what they're working on right now. Amy, you founded the Washington Women and Jazz Festival which is taking place in the city even as we speak. How have you incorporated atypical venues and up and coming musicians in the lineup?

BORMETThat's been my number one goal is to try to increase the jazz audience and also bring some visibility to the women, who are out here playing on the scene. I've done a lot of things for that. The Young Artists Showcase has advanced high school students and college students, women that are performing together. And we do two days of business workshops and panel discussions and rehearsal groups together and it's a great experience. So that'll be next week.

BORMETWe have just a whole myriad selection of events. We go all over town into little places, big places, concert venues. Tonight we'll be at the Kennedy Center Millennium Stage at 6:00 p.m. But next week, you know, we'll be at a tiny spot called Spacey Cloud in Adams Morgan, which is a woman-owned art gallery and vegan restaurant. And we'll be playing some experimental music down there so it's the full gamut of activities.

NNAMDIMarch 10th through the 31st. DeAndrey, you're still performing but your big thing now is managing Alice's Jazz and Cultural Society. What makes it different from almost every other jazz venue in the city?

HOWARDWell, let's see, because I'm an old cat and I'm the one who built it and Alice had the dream since she was a little girl and I had the dream at Morris Love and Peace, 27 years old when I told everybody --

NNAMDIHe was the youngest person in the joint. (laugh)

HOWARDYeah, exactly. And I told everybody, I want to open up a nonalcoholic jazz club and this is the seventies. They looking at me like, huh, you know. What're you talking about? It'll never work. It'll work but the plan, you know, it was to keep bringing jazz music where people can access and hear the music. And trying to get -- I get over flooded with all the musicians, because I know so many people and they all want to play. And I want them all to play, but I don't call myself a booking agency.

HOWARDI call myself a program director, because I sit back and listen to music when I get time. And then that tells me, who I should bring in so I'm not bringing in three groups back-to-back who are all in the same type thing. You know, I want to mix it up, give you those extensions we bring you, guitar trio, organ trios. And then sometimes, you know, quintet. You know, in the orchestra we had with Bethesda, we're getting ready to bring them back, Bethesda Blues Youth Orchestra.

HOWARDThen me and Dave been, what, playing tag for the last five years trying to -- because he got programs we want to bring in and we want to do that. But he's supposed to call me or I call him, was calling back and we never meet up but stay tuned. We have plenty of things happening, a lot of children programs.

NNAMDITell our audience, who Alice is and how you two met fortuitously.

HOWARDWe met because I moved back to D.C. and I was doing the Utopia staying with my sister. You know, Akia Kwan Jordan.

NNAMDIYep.

HOWARDStaying with her for a year, then I was going to go out in the country and buy me a nice house and just child out. So I was building -- a storm blew the window out. The building was abandoned. So I get home about 4:00, 5:00 in the morning. Sis say, Bro, you need to go around, because a lady needs your help. I said, man, I'm tired of helping people. I got to get some sleep tonight. She said, you better go. So I got up, went around there and Alice saw me. She said, oh, we know him. He's DeAndrey, because they seen me at Westminster playing all the time.

HOWARDSo as she said (unintelligible) I went to the store with my car got some wood and boarded it up. Then she showed me the building and I said, what you trying to do with this building? She said, my dream is to open up a nonalcoholic jazz club. I did like Fred Sanford, grabbed my heart, went back. (laugh) She thought I was having a heart attack. She said, what's wrong? I said, that's been my dream my whole life. So she said, well, I own the building, we are partners, we founded it.

HOWARDAnd Dr. Alice, she is Dr. Alice. She's been ill. She had a stroke two weeks before Christmas, but I'm going to see her down the street since she's in an assistant place. And she's doing much better the last two days I talked to her. She's talking to me like she used to, made me cry.

NNAMDIThat's how the place came to be. Davey, you're retiring this Friday. What made you decide to go into music education? Why did instructing the next generation become so important to you?

YARBOROUGHLike, from my own personal background and the exposure that I had. My exposure came from home. There were records in the house and I was pretty much self-taught until I met Bobby Felder. But I was playing and I was playing in bands, you know, by ear. And it was Bobby Felder, as a matter of fact, who conned me. (laugh)

NNAMDIInto going to Federal City College.

YARBOROUGHNo. Into -- I went to Federal City College and said I'll get my Associates Degree and I'm out. You know, my parents will be happy I went to college and I'm going to go out and I'm going on the road, right? Well, when I got my degree, Bobby came, and a whole lot of the other faculty, pulled me into the office one by one and said, look, you're on scholarship, you're on the Dean's List. And you're halfway through to a Bachelor's, which you could do a whole lot more with. And, as a matter of fact, the question was, well, what can you do with Associates that you couldn't do with your high school diploma and I couldn't answer the question, and that's how they got me.

YARBOROUGHAnd so from there I -- and they said, well, look, you can finish up. And so I thought, I said, okay, I can handle two more years. And I got my education degree, but in that process I had the opportunity of doing practicums and practice teaching. And my first practicum I had a serious breakthrough with a kid, who was frustrated and ended up (laugh) wrapping his flute around a chair. I'll never forget that. I was looking the other way and turned around and (laugh) I asked him what happened. He said, I don't know as young people will do, but as we finished talking he had been experiencing a lot of frustration, because he just wasn't moving like he wanted to.

YARBOROUGHWell, long story short, we got him another instrument. About a month later he came into my class with the biggest smile on his face I could have imagined. And he said, look Mr. Yarborough, I can do this. And that gleam, that's what caught me. And from there a lot of other factors made me, one, want to teach, two, and want to stay and watch what was going on. Forty years later I'm sitting next to Amy Bormet and hearing her talk about Herb Scott and a bevel of -- I mean, just a large amount. I can't tell you how many of the students that are a part of the legacy that was instilled in me.

YARBOROUGHI am a product of the legacy of all those people, the Bill Harrises and the Billy Taylors and the Charlie Hamptons and I can go on. We won't do that right now, but I stand on their shoulders and their charge to me was, pass it on.

NNAMDILove me some Charlie Hampton. Now that you're looking at retirement, the Bohemian Caverns is closed, what's the big passion project you're working on over at Bohemian Caverns?

YARBOROUGHWell, we're actually closing the door -- I'm closing the door on the high school teaching realm, because those same 40 years of commitment to the ones that have graduated, they're beginning to take over and bring in the new life. My objective now is to maintain, preserve the history and the legacy that I have lived for and from so that is accessible and more accessible to Washington, D.C. So one of the initiatives I -- for the last 20 years I've been operating the Washington Jazz Arts Institute. My wife and I founded it in 1998 and our mission is to make sure that any kid, once they decide that they want to learn jazz, will have an opportunity and a support system throughout retirement.

YARBOROUGHPart of that -- the biggest part of that right now, this came as I spoke a dream and it was blogged. And the Washington Business Journal called and put it on an article, because I said one, Bohemian Caverns should be designated as a historic landmark. And two, it's a building that could also house a museum about Washington jazz artists. And I can start phase two of the Washington Jazz Arts Institute mentoring program making that actual building now contribute to the present, past and future of jazz in Washington, D.C.

NNAMDIGreat idea. Here is Atilla in Alexandria, Virginia. Atilla, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ATILLAHello, Kojo.

NNAMDIHi, Atilla.

ATILLAI am so happy to get through. This is Atilla. Hello, Amy, I'm Sophie's daddy. (unintelligible).

BORMETHi. Oh, we had such a good time at the Washington Jazz Arts Institute with Sophie and she'll be on the Young Artist Showcase again on the 23rd at Public Playhouse. I can't wait.

ATILLAYes. And I just wanted to thank everybody from the bottom of my heart for doing such a great job in the D.C. area and we cannot be more proud. And that's what I wanted to say, just keep up the good job and this is a great shout out. That's all.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call. Here is Dick in Washington, DC. Dick, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DICKHey, Kojo. I'm going to show my age, because when I was in, I guess, mid 1950s I was introduced to jazz at a venue called, Olivia Davis' Patio Lounge, which was located on 13th Street. And every Saturday they would have a matinee where just about every jazz combo, well-known jazz combo appeared. And for a cover charge and a minimum they would serve you cokes and pizza. But I saw Gene Krupa and Gerry Muligan and Art Paderman, Louis Armstrong and just about every famous jazz group at the time. And it set me straight for the rest of my life on my...

NNAMDIAnd that's why Dick Kaufman sings jazz today. Dick, had to bust you out. (laugh) But Dick, thank you very much for your call.

DICKThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIHere is Patrick in Northwest Washington. Patrick, you're turn.

PATRICKWell, you know there's a time that you really didn't have to come home here in Washington, D.C. You could just go out and listen to music and listen to music and keep going and you'd be out there for days. You know, you could find something to do every night. You could have a blast. But, you know, as I see it with going to the venues, number one, I do drive and I don't want to get ticketed. So I hope this is one way that, you know, the city can work with the jazz clubs and not to ticket us patrons, who come and park there.

PATRICKThe other part is that I've understood about jazz is you've got to be brave, you know. Go ahead and let it play. There's beautiful jazz that I can hear on a Sunday afternoon underneath the bridge by the Department of Labor by a security guard, who opens up his car doors, has a beautiful stereo and boy, he plays some good music down there. (laugh)

NNAMDISo you got to find it where you can. Running out of time very quickly, but Maurice here Tweets, "I've owned Cha-Cha on U Street for over 22 years. We stopped live music, because it became too expensive to pay musicians and the neighborhood kept complaining about noise." The noise experience we had when we did -- we went in front of the Capital One Arena on 7th Street Northwest and did a popup with street musicians there. They're having the same problem, complaints about noise. I know it's something that you're familiar with, Amy.

BORMETYeah, definitely. I think there's two things that are really -- we're trying to address that issue. And number one, the being able to pay musicians properly. We've just been working on legislation to get a bonus, a tax rebate for venues that support multiple hours of live music per week. So therefore hopefully we will see some kickbacks for the jazz musicians on the scene, because we're looking out for our venues. And we love and support all of them.

NNAMDIAmy K Bormet, DeAndrey Howard, Davey Yarborough, thank you all for joining us and good luck to all of you.

YARBOROUGHThank you so much.

BORMETThank you. Thanks for having us.

NNAMDIToday's show on DC's jazz scene was produced by Ruth Tam. We asked today's guests for songs that represent the future of D.C.'s jazz scene. You can listen to their selections at KojoShow.org/blog. It's all part of our series on gentrification and D.C.'s arts community culminating in a road show tomorrow at Arena Stage. If you didn't RSVP you can still add your name to the waitlist at kojoshow.org/20 or listen to the excerpt that we will air at noon on Thursday.

NNAMDIComing up tomorrow we'll do a deep dive into the future of Maryland's public school system. What are the state's priorities and how will they be funded? That all starts tomorrow at noon. Until then, thank you for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.