MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, sports writer and author John Feinstein, "One on One," a new book that's as much about John Feinstein as it is about his subjects. But first, think about the marching band at your high school or college, and I'm sure a lot of images come to mind.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIGenerally, band members are thought of as the good kids. Sure, maybe the drummers or some brass players may be tough guys and push the envelope, but, usually, the so-called band geeks are not troublemakers. I'm guessing you don't think of band members as the type to haze each other. Last month, Robert Champion, a student at Florida A&M University, died. He was a band major, and death was the result of a hazing incident.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIFlorida A&M, or FAMU as it's called, is known for having a fantastic band, the type invited regularly to parades and bowl games. But, funny enough, what surprised us about this story was not the hazing among band members. It was the fact that in Atlanta, Georgia, the DeKalb County school system suspended all marching band programs. Why is that? To find out about the connection and to update us on the investigation into the death at Florida A&M, joining us now by telephone is Bo Emerson. He is a reporter with the Atlanta Journal Constitution. Bo Emerson, thank you so much for joining us.

MR. BO EMERSONI'm glad to be here.

NNAMDIBo, before we go any further, can you give us the basics of the story how Robert Champion died?

EMERSONWell, it was after the game with Bethune-Cookman, and he was discovered unconscious on the band bus. And it was allegedly as a result of a so-called hazing incident, and he -- the death has since been ruled a homicide.

NNAMDIIf you'd like to join this conversation, you can call us at 800-433-8850. What are your thoughts at the -- about the hazing death at FAMU in Florida, or what do you think should be done about it? We'll get to some of the consequences that have already occurred later on. But, Bo, when did you realize, or what did FAMU school officials know, about hazing in the band before this incident?

EMERSONWell, that's a highly contested question. The band director, Julian White, has been suspended. He says that he has warned over and over again about hazing, and the band has suspended students and even recommended that the band not play at the Bethune-Cookman game because of an incident that happened earlier with a student named Bria Hunter, who was -- she was beaten and to the point where the largest bone in her leg was broken, and that has also now resulted in charges, from what I understand.

NNAMDIWell, you mentioned that band director Julian White was suspended, but it is my understanding that he was fired before he was suspended. Can you, please, explain what went on there?

EMERSONWell, that's -- from what I understand, the faculty had a little something to do with that because there is a fairly complex process that you have to go through to fire a tenured professor. And they were concerned if that process was abridged, then anybody else could be in jeopardy, too, no matter what it was that that Dr. White was accused of. So they are going to go -- they sort of rescinded his firing. They put him on suspension and the -- and I suppose that now they're going to go through that process the way that the faculty would approve of.

NNAMDIIn addition to which, it's my understanding, that the local police have said, please don't fire anybody before we complete our investigation. But when did you realize that this Florida hazing incident had a Georgia connection?

EMERSONWell, I didn't realize it until I started working on these stories last week and the -- now, I knew that there was a big audience for the Florida A&M type of marching band, and, in fact, I went down to Tallahassee back in the '90s when sort of the founder of the band, Dr. Foster, was celebrating his 50th anniversary with the band. And we did a feature story about him back then because there were a lot of FAMU graduates, a lot of fans of that band in the Atlanta reading audience.

EMERSONThe -- but I found out there was an even more of a connection, as a result of working on these stories, when I saw how many graduates from Florida A&M had become music teachers in Atlanta and had created a kind of pipeline to -- that would bring students down there often on scholarships, students sometimes who would not otherwise be able to go to college.

NNAMDISo, in a way, could you -- could it be argued that FAMU has helped to shape band culture in Atlanta high schools?

EMERSONOh, I think it absolutely has, and, in fact, it -- you could probably argue the reverse of that as well, and that there is a very strong Atlanta presence at Florida A&M. And that has perhaps had a hand in shaping the culture there, perhaps not even -- perhaps some of the downside of that culture as well.

NNAMDIWhile this story is tied together, a lot of people may be thinking, what does he mean by the downside of that culture? This story is tied together in a way by a somewhat secretive group called the Red Dawg -- Dawg spelled D-A-W-G -- the Red Dawg Order. Who is the Red Dawg Order?

EMERSONWell, the Red Dawg Order was created in the '90s by Atlanta band students who were -- wanted to sort of gather and fraternize with each other at schools where they were in marching bands, whether it was at Tennessee State or Florida A&M or Bethune-Cookman or Grambling or wherever.

EMERSONAnd they -- it became a kind of fraternity within the band where Atlanta kids -- and then it'd actually became more broad after a while where Georgia kids could gather with each other, sort of create a solidarity with each other and probably share rides back home, you know, during breaks between semesters.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is the number to call. We're talking with Bo Emerson. He's a reporter at the Atlanta Journal Constitution, which has been following the hazing deaths and other incidents of hazing at Florida A&M University, linking them to a high school band culture in DeKalb County, Georgia. If you'd like to join the conversation -- have you ever been in a marching band? Do you know of hazing associated with marching bands?

NNAMDIAnd if so, what form does it take? Call us at 800-433-8850. Is this a source of complete surprise and puzzlement to you? Did you think that hazing was limited only to fraternities? Call us, 800-433-8850. Here is David in Silver Spring, Md. David, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DAVIDYeah. Can you hear me?

NNAMDIWe can, David.

DAVIDMy question is, it seems that you're alluding to some -- say, using the word hazing, in this particular case, what does this actually mean, that they beat each other up and that the death of this -- the band member was the cause of his own band members or an opposite band?

NNAMDIWell, the medical examiner has said that he died from blunt-force trauma. He had multiple blows to his chest, arm, shoulder and back. After the beating, the examiner wrote that he complained of thirst and fatigue. Then he lost his vision, and then he died, probably of a rapid loss of blood. Bo Emerson, can you provide any more details?

EMERSONWell -- and they also mentioned that he had vomit in his mouth when -- at least one of the students has said such during the call -- the 911 call, which would have made you think he might have choked. But the medical examiner made it sound that he actually died after he went into shock from blood loss, which would be -- would indicate to me a much more severe beating.

NNAMDIDavid, any more questions, or does that satisfy...

DAVIDYes. Was this done by his own band members or the opposite band?

EMERSONWell, that's a good question. And the implication is that if it were -- was members of his own band, and, in fact, the suggestion is that, since he dropped the baton during the halftime routine, that it might have been a kind of disciplinary action as a -- to try to maintain discipline among drum majors. There's not just drum -- one drum major at the band -- in that band. Sometimes there's as many as 10.

NNAMDIDavid, thank you very much for your call.

DAVIDThank you.

NNAMDIBo Emerson, have you been even finding out about any similar kinds of incidents in DeKalb County high schools that...

EMERSONWell, as you mentioned, DeKalb suspended all marching band activity last week, and the reason they did that is they began looking at the coincidences of the people involved in various incidents at Florida A&M. They saw -- first of all, Robert Champion is from Atlanta. There were three students who were dismissed but then reinstated, and two of those -- two of the three are from Atlanta.

EMERSONBria Hunter, who was in that earlier hazing incident, is from Atlanta, in fact, from Southwest DeKalb. And the folks charged in that incident were also from Southwest DeKalb, so two of the three -- the other one was from Druid Hills High School, which is also a DeKalb school. So the DeKalb music directors and the folks in charge of DeKalb schools were concerned whether it might be happening in DeKalb schools.

EMERSONAnd so they started asking questions of band directors, and they found out something that gave them enough concern. They suspended all marching band activity. Now, of course, the football season is over, so there's not a lot of marching band activity going on. But they're going to -- the bands have events coming up. They've got parades coming up, and they've got a big competition in the spring coming up.

EMERSONBut -- so the question is, OK, what were those events that the -- that were troubling that the DeKalb authorities discovered? And they haven't said the answer to that yet, but it was enough to give them concern about whether there is actually hazing going on in DeKalb schools.

NNAMDIAnd it's my understanding that FAMU has been on notice of hazing since 1998 when a clarinet player was paddled 300 times and ended up in the hospital in a band initiation ritual. But you mentioned earlier that this might have been a form of punishment. Any indication at all of corporal punishment either as an issue in DeKalb County high schools or in DeKalb County high school marching bands?

EMERSONWell, you have to -- when you use that term, it makes you think of a teacher administering it to a student. But we got to keep in mind that teachers are out of the loop on this. This -- these are students interacting with each other. And, as some folks have pointed out, these are students who voluntarily want to participate in whatever these rituals are to become a part of the band or to become a part of one of the sub-organizations in the band.

EMERSONAnd so the -- and in some senses, the hazing is part of a willing participant and a willing administrator. Both of those folks are equally guilty and -- if somebody is charged in hazing. And the -- so whether there's -- there's not -- when you say corporal punishment, I don't think there's corporal punishment going at DeKalb schools. But there may well be kids that have -- they sort of -- you got to (unintelligible)...

NNAMDITaking it onto themselves, so to speak.

EMERSONYeah, yeah.

NNAMDII'd like to talk both with Greg in McLean, Va. and Keith in Washington, but I'll start with Greg in McLean, Va. Greg, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

GREGYeah, thanks for taking my call. Am I correct in my perception that this is a black marching band problem and not a marching band problem? And if so, instead of -- how this problem is being studied?

NNAMDII have no idea, Greg, but I'll put you on hold. And we'll go to Keith in Washington, D.C. who apparently has some information about this. Keith, you are on the air. Go ahead, please.

KEITHHow are you doing, Kojo?

NNAMDII'm well.

KEITHAnd that is what I am speaking to, that it's not just a Florida A&M historically black school issue. There are -- I can't think of the Greek letters for the national organization that oversees this, but I know for a fact that a week -- the week following this incident that they called for the boycott of "The Tom Joyner Morning Show" because they said that he spoke negatively about the marching band's fraternity and their hazing.

KEITHAnd it's my understanding from bands from when I was in high school and undergrad, which I had no part with, hazing comes from all schools, not just your historically black schools. Now, to what degree, I can't speak on that. But one would imagine that if you look at the Greek fraternities, both white and black went to all schools. It has been well documented and known that black fraternities, they haze harder and more physically than the (unintelligible)...

NNAMDIWell, I don't know who hazes harder or more physically. I do know that hazing has been an issue in fraternities, both black and white. What I do not know is whether is it has been an issue in marching bands, both black and white. But race has certainly entered into this issue, has it not, Bo Emerson?

EMERSONWell, I think it has. And the -- we -- Mark Davis, also at the paper here, did a story, sort of a more general story about hazing. And he pointed out that, really, there are -- there's hazing in groups that you would not imagine and in every group, in fact, that you can imagine, even glee clubs, choirs, the -- there is one form of hazing or another. Now, they're not necessarily punching each other out, but it's probably on a continuum from place to place.

EMERSONI don't know what the degree that the so-called white marching bands have hazing, but it be -- it wouldn't be that hard to believe it had existed there as -- if it exists at so many HBCU schools.

NNAMDIAnd, Greg, I don't know if we have satisfied your curiosity on this issue. Greg?

GREGNo, that was very helpful. Thanks for the discussion.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call. Bo Emerson, it's my understanding, going back to the Red Dawg Order that we discussed earlier, that you have compared them to Skull and Crossbones at Yale?

EMERSONThe Skull and Bones club at Yale is, you know, sort of a legendary organization that various people are members of, even though they're not allowed to admit that they are, including George Bush Sr., I believe. But the -- it's one of many so-called finishing clubs at the Ivy's that they probably have their own hazing as well. A lot of those involve excessive drinking rather than corporal punishment.

EMERSONAnd -- but I would say that the connection is pretty slight, but here's the connection, which is that, when we started asking through Twitter about the Red Dawg Order, we found people immediately unfollowing us and saying, you know, we're not going to read your tweets anymore. It was almost as if we'd said the, you know, the unacceptable word. And so you're not supposed to say it out loud.

EMERSONAs in with Skull and Bones, if you say Skull and Bones, the folks who are members of the club are supposed to leave the room. It's even been turned into a joke in the "30 Rock" series, but -- so in other words, it's an order that people are not really eager to talk about it. In fact, I found nobody who was eager to talk about it on the record for sure.

NNAMDIHere's Beth in Washington, D.C. Beth, your turn.

BETHHi. I'm calling because -- mom of a young man who was in fraternity hazing incident here in Washington, D.C. at a white fraternity. He went to a freshman party and was blindfolded and given Bacardi 151 proof and told that he had to keep drinking. And 18 hours later, he was found unconscious in the home. It was an off-campus event and an unsanctioned fraternity.

BETHBut I just wanted to say that we were very fortunate. My son, five years later is walking, and three surgeries later, he is OK. But he was on the brink of really not making it. And what I have found in our experience is that there is a lack of empathy and compassion with a lot of these young students today. And I saw it when my son went through this how people were very fearful that they would get in trouble, but not comfortable with the idea of standing up and saying that something needed to change and stop.

NNAMDIStop snitching. Nobody wanted to say anything about it. Beth, thank you very much for sharing that with us. Good luck to you and especially to your son. Where are we now in this investigation, Bo Emerson? When do we expect to find out anything, either from the police of the board of trustees, that can move this forward?

EMERSONI'm -- I would guess that there are going to be folks named some time this -- before the beginning of the year, but I'm not sure how close they are at all. Obviously, their investigation is going to be hampered if people don't want to talk about it, and, for sure, band members are not going to want to turn in their associates. So that would -- that's going to make it a difficult job for the police in Tallahassee.

NNAMDIThank you very much for joining us. Bo Emerson is a reporter at the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Bo, once again, thank you.

EMERSONThank you for having me.

NNAMDIWe're going to take a short break. When we come back, sportswriter and author John Feinstein. His new book is called "One on One." It tells us as much about Feinstein as about the people he's reporting on. We'll grill him about that. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.