KOJO NNAMDIYou're tuned in to The Kojo Nnamdi Show on WAMU 88.5, welcome. Later in the broadcast a sneak peak of WAMU's new season of the What's with Washington podcast called "51st," which explores the push for D.C. statehood. But first the Trump administration recently declared that much of the diversity training at government departments and agencies amounts to little more than divisive anti-American propaganda. And he ordered federal agencies to eliminate these programs. And yesterday President Trump expanded this ban to contractors doing business with the federal government.

KOJO NNAMDISome say these are pre-election stunts to undermine antiracism efforts and rouse Trump's base. Others say there are real problems, issues with diversity training and the way it's done. However you feel about these directives they present an opportunity to take a closer look at diversity training programs, how they're run and what they do and do not achieve. Joining us now is Howard Ross. He is the Founder of Montgomery County base Consulting Udarta. He's the author of "Our Search for Belonging: How Our Need to Connect is Tearing Us Apart" among other books. Howard Ross, welcome.

HOWARD ROSSHi, Kojo. It's great to be with you again.

NNAMDIThank you for joining us. Howard, you have been in the field of diversity training for decades. You founded two consulting firms. You've written several books about issues around diversity and inclusion and unconscious bias. Let's start with some basics. What is diversity training?

ROSSWell, I think, you know, this is a field of study that's been around now, Kojo, for probably 40 years. And basically it's driven by a desire to have organizations whether they're government organizations, businesses or schools or whatever be able to fulfill the American ethos, which is to have people be treated fairly, to treat each other with respect and develop understanding from each other. And obviously, you know, I think one of the misgivings that people have is when people talk about it it's almost like it's this monolithic thing, but there are hundreds of different ways that people do diversity training.

ROSSAnd when people say to me is diversity training good, I'll often say to them, well, it's like do you like restaurants? You know, do you mean the Greasy Spoon down the street or Maxim's in Paris, you know? Some of them are really well done and some of them are not so well done. And it's been going on now as I said, all over the world for decades.

NNAMDIHoward, the firm you run now is called Udarta. First of all, what does Udarta mean and what kinds of services do you offer?

ROSSWell, I mean, we sold our company Cook Ross in 2018 to our partner and they're still doing fabulous work. And encourage people if they're interested to go with them. My wife and I are still -- we like to say we rewired and not retired. So we still have, you know, a desire to do the work. So we just setup an entity. So Udarta is actually the Hindu word for generosity. About two-thirds of the work we do now is pro bono work or community based work. And we just wanted to have a structure, because, you know, for a lot of reasons it's easier than just doing it as individual practitioners.

NNAMDIWho are your clients now?

ROSSWell, they really range broadly. I mean, some obviously are the federal government as you know. Some are Leadership Greater Washington and other community based organizations, a lot of not for profit organizations. Doing a project with the Catholic Church right now, and we're doing some leadership work -- some international leadership work where we've gathered global leaders together in places like Morocco and Thailand, Mexico, Costa Rica and India. So really a broad range of work with all different kinds of organizations.

NNAMDIOur number is 800-433-8850 if you have a question or comment. Do you think diversity training would help in your company or organization? Why or why not? 800-433-8850. Howard, I would like to address some of the specifics of the Trump administration's directive and where it came from. A conservative commentator named Christopher Rufo railed against diversity training on Fox News. Rufo also accused you specifically of receiving millions of federal dollars to conduct diversity programs that shame white people. These accusations have been amplified by right wing news outlets. What's been the result of that appearance and what's your response?

ROSSWell, first of all, let me talk about -- very quickly as I know we've got limited time. This whole characterization of the event that that occurred it's been either intentionally or unintentionally completely mischaracterized. It wasn't a training first of all. Dr. Johnnetta Cole, who I'm sure you know is who is now the national Chair of the National Council of Negro Women and who is a longtime associate of mine, 83 year old African American woman, and I were asked to do a town hall kind of meeting with some folks in the government. And it was an open invitation event, nobody was forced to come. Nine-thousand people called in. It was in response to the George Floyd killing and all of the upheaval that that created.

ROSSWe did the event and we prepared a handbook to go with it, a 35 page handbook, which was just a guide, again, voluntary. People could pull this down from their website if they wanted it. Nobody was forced to be in the training or required to be in the training. And it was a guide to helping people have conversations. And it listed some of the books that are out there and described them for people and some suggestions.

ROSSSo what Rufo did is somebody must have sent him this booklet. He pulled six sentences out of 35 pages and then completely changed the characterization of the story. He cut Dr. Cole out of the story interestingly enough to make it about me, the white guy. I'm not sure why. I suspect he was probably too much of a coward to go after the NCNW, and then talked about it as indoctrination.

ROSSAnd, you know, Kojo, you and I have been on the air many many times. And I think anybody who knows my work knows that my work is exactly the opposite. First of all, I'm a white guy with white sons and white grandchildren. And, you know, I mean it makes no sense for me to demonize white people. It's also just not the way I believe the work needs to be done. I think we need to be looking at commonality rather than differences and as much as possible bridging those gaps. So that's -- I could go on and on about -- you know, there are at least 10 different areas in which he either lied or misrepresented.

NNAMDIHe also connects your training to something called critical race theory, which President Trump jumped on, picked up and described it as a quoting here, "a Marxist doctrine holding that America is a wicked and racist nation." Howard, what is critical race theory and is it part of your trainings?

ROSSWell, let me at the second part first. I read and studied some critical race theory. It is not part of my training. It was never mentioned in the document we're talking about. It was never mentioned in our conversation. It's something he put in there. But critical race theory is a body of work that really came into play a lot in the 80s. And Derek Bell at Harvard was one of the primary people behind it, but many others as well.

ROSSAnd it's basically a way of looking at our historical framework through the context of how race has affected the development of American society. And as an academic study it's very rigorous. And there are things about it that I think are very valuable. There are things about it I disagree with. But it is absolutely not part of my training. I've never train critical race theory. You know, it's just not what I do. It's not because I think it's invalid. It's just not what I do.

NNAMDIAlso joining us is Alexandra Kalev. Alexandra is a Professor in the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at Tel Aviv University. And the Author of the Harvard Business Review article "Why Diversity Programs fail." Alexandra, thank you for joining us.

ALEXANDRA KALEVThank you for having me, Kojo. How are you?

NNAMDII'm hanging in here.

ROSSHi, Alexandra.

NNAMDIAlexandra, you're joining us from Tel Aviv where your research focuses on gender, race and ethnic diversity in the workplace. You got your Ph.D. in sociology in this country from Princeton. And much of your work has been focused on these issues in American companies. What does your research show about the effectiveness of diversity programs?

KALEVWell, diversity programs or diversity training more specifically?

NNAMDIYes.

KALEVSo I guess diversity training specifically is probably the least effective diversity program and one that can also backfire if it's not done correctly. It's positive effects are lower than others and it does have a negative effects in diversity.

NNAMDIWhat are some of the issues, Alexandra, with diversity training as it's currently done in many organizations in this country?

KALEVYeah. Well, I just want to add that this research is based on following more 800 organizations in the U.S. that adopted different kinds of diversity programs. And we followed them for 30 years looking at what happened after diversity programs were implemented. And one of the main issues in diversity programs and diversity training in the U.S. today is that many of them are eventually framed around blaming and pointing fingers at managers, which are mostly white and men, blaming them in the illness of the organization in the lack of diversity and bias indiscrimination. And, you know, obviously we know critical race theory. We know feminist theory. We know that white men have some effect on inequality in society. But that is not effective when you sit people in the room and preach -- teach them that.

KALEVUnfortunately, in fact, it can even create backlash. It can backfire. It can activate stereotypes. Basically when asking people to suppress those stereotypes, it tends to reinforce them, because it makes the stereotypes more cognitively accessible. So there is kind of an unconscious process here of enhancing stereotypes. More consciously, people, managers, workers, also our kids react negatively to efforts to control them. And in experiments we see that whites recent external pressures to control prejudice against Blacks and they respond by increasing bias. Unless, by the way, they see the goal of reducing prejudice as their own as voluntary. And I liked what Howard said that nobody was forced into the room.

NNAMDIHere's Mike in Manchester, Maryland. Mike, your turn. Mike.

MIKEMy apologies, Kojo. Thank you for bringing me on. I just want to point something out. I was working for Fortune 500 companies for 35 years. And I went through diversity training several times. And I have professional colleagues that were minorities, and I saw firsthand racism. I also saw firsthand racism in my travels across the country from minorities towards other people. So I guess the point of diversity training is, is it needed? Yes. Is it helpful? Yes. But I think it's important to bring up the point that the sword cuts both ways. It's diversity training for all people and I think it's part of our national issue that we need to work together in peace to help each other, because everyone is responsible.

NNAMDIOkay. Got your point. Howard Ross, we only have about a minute left in this segment, but go ahead, please.

ROSSOkay. Yeah, I just want to say, you know, I agree with virtually everything Alexandra said. In fact, my first book "Reinventing Diversity" starts with saying why diversity doesn't work. And I think that, you know, it's so important for people to get that as Alexandra was saying there's certain things that we know get in the way of this work being effective. And that's why we really emphasize building a culture together. We emphasize looking at bias from all perspectives as opposed to just one perspective. We look at what behaviors and structures and also it's important for people to realize that diversity training is not a standalone.

ROSSI often say to people that, you know, starting with education, it's like joining the gym and getting your workout program. It doesn't do anything for you if you don't go ahead and do the workout. So we also have to look at structures and systems in organizations. I think in the study that she and Frank Dobbins did, which I think was really helpful. They talk about the importance of mentoring and cross identity and cross functional work teams and all of those things.

NNAMDIOkay.

ROSSSo I think the message I want people to get is that is good training and there is training that's not so good.

NNAMDIWe've got to take a short break? When we come back we'll continue this conversation. Give us a call, 800-433-8850. Do you worry that diversity training could backfire? 800-433-8850. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking about diversity training being under siege in the federal government. We're talking with Howard Ross. He Founder of Montgomery County base Udarta Consulting and the author of "Our Search for Belonging: How Our Need to Connect is Tearing Us Apart" among other books. Alexandra Kalev is a Professor in the department of Sociology and Anthropology at Tel Aviv University and the Co-author of the Harvard Business Review article "Why Diversity Programs Fail." Just want to get to a couple of callers before we get back with our guests. Here's John in Arlington, Virginia. John, your turn.

JOHNHi. I have been through the types of training that pretty much most of the places that I've worked. And as a manager what I found is that in probably more than any type of situation where I've had to, you know, discipline employees or kind of, you know, in some cases terminate people it's because they've demonstrated a lack of respect of their colleagues and their clients. And the kind of caricature of, you know, like group thinker trying to enforce people to conform to social guidelines has really been the furthest experience from what I've seen. It's more that the sheer goal of organizations depends upon people, you know, recognizing whether or not they intended to do things.

JOHNIf you disrespect a client, you could lose business. You could harm the reputation of the company. And so, you know, just in the same way that I've never seen that ineffective organization, you know, kind of loses control of things by, you know, having good management. I've also never seen that, you know, by kind of encouraging a type of respect of others that you're going to have like backlash or something like. I just -- I haven't seen that.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you very much for you call. Here now is Alex in Northwest Washington. Alex, your turn.

ALEXGood afternoon, Kojo. I'm just calling just to say briefly that I agree with diversity bias racial training, because it makes us all regardless of race, socioeconomic background, cultural background, it makes us all cognitive of biases we did not have toward one another as a previous caller mentioned. And it evens out the playing field. I also believe that it should be indoctrinated into our curriculum, diversity training, all the way up to orientations for public and private sector jobs as well as -- exactly.

NNAMDIAnd where do you work, Alex? You work in the federal government?

ALEXYes. I'm a contractor.

NNAMDIOkay.

ALEXYes.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you very much for you call. You too can give us a call 800-433-8850. Are you an employer who has tried to foster a culture of inclusion? What did you try to do? 800-433-8850. Alexandra Kalev, let's be clear. You are not opposed to diversity training per say. What kind actually works in your view?

KALEVYeah. Well, our research shows that indeed voluntary training works better than mandatory training. Twenty percent of training in the U.S. are done voluntary. Eighty percent are done mandatory. And also as Alex just said -- or actually John before Alex said that diversity training that is tied to specific managerial goals and includes actionable items is effective, is the one that you want to go with.

NNAMDI800-433-8850. Howard Ross, one area opponents of diversity training have focused on is the discussion of white privilege and what's been called the quote/unquote "shaming of white people." Can you talk a little bit about where that concept fits into this discussion?

ROSSSure. Sure, Kojo. I mean, look, we know when we look at the history of our country and even before our country on this continent, you know, going back to 400 years that what's been created over time is what Bryan Stevenson, the great civil rights lawyer calls a narrative of racial difference. And we know that that was encoded into law for 350 years and even still is here. And so as a result of that, the system produces a hierarchy of whose seen as good and whose as bad, whose seen better and whose seen as less. And we've see that when we're children, for example, looking at the pictures of the presidents on the wall of our school.

ROSSAnd so the notion of white privilege -- the problem with it is people sometimes individualize it and say, you have white privilege or you have white privilege. What we try to get people to see is that we're all trained to play a particular role. So just one example, I said before I have four sons. They have all gotten their driver's license. I never had to sit down with any of them and talk to them about what to do to keep themselves alive if they were stopped by a police officer.

ROSSWhereas every African American parent that I know of with a child of that age has had that conversation. That doesn't make me a bad person. It just means that I don't have to pay attention to something that they do have to pay attention to. And so the concept of white privilege is a valuable one for us to see how that might have us inclined to act in one particular way or another. But it doesn't have to be taught in a way that demonizes anybody. We focus rather on how the system produces these differentials.

NNAMDIWhat about this idea -- go ahead, please, Alexandra.

KALEVThanks. So you can see that even in the way organizations work routinely. So, for example, mentoring, everybody needs a mentor. But if you just allow your organization to have spontaneous informal mentoring relations no people of color and no women will have mentors, because they're way less networked and way less likely to find people like them among managers, right? So that's kind of a privilege that the white worker has and a worker of color or women have much less. So one way to reduce racism and institutionalized racism in the workplace is simply put have a formal mentoring program that will make sure everybody gets one.

NNAMDIOkay. Here is JB in Lanham, Maryland. JB, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JBHi. So I've been involved with diversity and recruitment probably for 40 years. And I was in the minority and women's affairs senator on the student senate in college. And now I'm with the State Department. And I have a leadership role in diversity and inclusion training. So when I saw the memo come out a couple of weeks ago from the White House I was horrified and immediately alerted our members. And I think everybody needs to have this training.

JBBut when I looked into our training program, which is PT144, there were specific anecdotes, which talked about the historical racism of our country and how people have racist tendencies. And all of that needs to be reworked now, because of this edict from the White House. So it's really concerning and it's going to set us back quite a ways.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call. Howard, do you -- what do you predict will happen to diversity training for federal employees in the future?

ROSSWell, obviously, Kojo it will depend completely on what happens in the election. I think if Biden wins then I think this thing will go away and we'll get back to where we were. And people will continue to find better and better ways to do this. And I hope that they continue to learn from the kind of research that Alexandra and Frank Dobbins did and others. And continue to look at how do we refine this and have it better. If Trump wins, then I think this could be the least of our problems. So we'll see.

NNAMDIHere now is Asmaret in Bethesda, Maryland. Asmaret, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ASMARETYes. Hello, Kojo. Thank you for having me. So I grew up outside of the U.S. I myself am multicultural from two different continents born on third and so on. And when I hear about diversity training and the issues that we are confronted with right now, it sounds very much like there is a negative connotation to it. And I feel that having some sort of a cultural awareness training is probably more productive, because that can be an issue that everybody is confronted with.

NNAMDINot necessarily. And I only interrupt you because we only have about a minute and a half left. Howard Ross, the term multiculturalism was also associated with some controversy, wasn't it?

ROSSYeah. I mean, and again, it's a lot of misunderstanding. You know, so, for example, a lot of the work that we've done around multiculturalism is helping healthcare providers understand the cultural needs of different patients. So that if a patient comes in who comes from a cultural background that a particular healthcare practice might, you know, impact them differently or there may even be drugs that impact them differently because of genetic polymorphisms. And so, you know, multiculturalism is really just the acknowledgement that when we come from different value systems, different behavioral systems because of our cultures, the more we can understand that, the better we can communicate, the more respect we can generate and the better we can work together.

NNAMDIAlexandra, we only have about 30 seconds left. But what's your advice for workplaces struggling with diversity and inclusion? Where should they start?

KALEVWell, they should start with uprooting institutionalized racism by doing targeted recruitment. You know, not going only to historically white colleges so they have more diverse pipeline. Mentoring and giving white and non-white opportunities to work together. Collaboration is the best way to reduce bias.

NNAMDIOkay. I'm afraid I have to interrupt, because we're just about out of time. Alexandra Kalev, Howard Ross, thank you both for joining us. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll talk about the What's with Washington new podcast called "51st." I'm Kojo Nnamdi.