KOJO NNAMDIThere are over two million members in the Alcoholic Anonymous program, and thousands here in the D.C. region. Prior to the pandemic, 1,600 AA meetings were held each week in our area alone, but all of them have shut down, following stay-at-home orders. So, how are alcoholics staying sober, and how are they getting the support they need? Joining me now is Matt M., a recovering alcoholic and president of the Serenity Club in Alexandria, where he's also a member. He is also a certified addiction counselor. Matt M., thank you so much for joining us.

MATT M.Hey, good afternoon, Kojo. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

NNAMDIMatt, as I said, you're a recovering alcoholic who's been sober since 2005. How has this stay-at-home order and isolation been for you and your disease?

M.Actually, it's been very challenging. You know, with so many different things in life that come along, you know, I think that for myself and many of the other people that I've talked to, we're adapting to it. And, you know, the important thing for us is, you know, isolation is such a challenge, and it's one of the root causes for alcoholism. We actually have a little saying where, you know, an alcoholic by themselves is in bad company.

M.So, you know, isolation is -- you know, staying connected with others, the online recovery community is very important. And I believe, for me personally, and for others I talk to, this still allows for the core idea that, you know, one alcoholic sharing with another is without parallel.

NNAMDIMatt, talk about the Serenity Club, which you're president, and a member of, of course. What's the goal of the organization, and how did it transition from hosting 35 meetings a week to none?

M.Yes, sir. So, the Serenity Club in northern Virginia, we disseminate knowledge and information about the disease of alcoholism and other associated addictions. And we provide a meeting place for members of 12-step recovery groups such as Alcoholics Anonymous. And we strive for, you know, spiritual principles such as honesty, sobriety, recovery and contentment of life, both collectively and on an individual basis.

M.So, as you said, we host 35 meetings a week, prior to the pandemic, on average. And, you know, it was quite difficult. We really strived to stay open as long as we could. And a lot of our members are reaching out to us and people who attend meetings there. And they were expressing, hey, I'm in more fear of, you know, my alcoholism than I am of COVID-19.

M.And while we could understand that, once it got to a point where, you know, we were receiving governors' orders, I think as, you know, the board of directors, we had to look at what is the greater good and what is our civic duty to the community and to the country. And at that point, we had to close the club down completely. And, as of right now, Governor Northam's order prohibits gatherings of 10 or more people, that's currently not set to expire until June the 10th . So, we've got a ways to go.

NNAMDISo, you can no longer host meetings in person. So, how have Zoom meetings been for some of the other members of Serenity Club? Are they working?

M.Yes, sir, Kojo. That's an excellent question. So, that's the primary outlet that we're having to turn to, are the online meetings, such as Zoom is the most popular one, it seems like. But there's some other platforms, as well. And again, you know, it's allowing us to see each other. It's allowing us to connect with each other. It's keep us in a schedule. It's keeping us connected. And, you know, we still have that fundamental principle of, you know, sharing our experience, strength and hope with one another. And, you know, to me, that's the key of how we help each other.

NNAMDIHere is Jim, in Severna Park. Jim, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JIMYes, Kojo. Thank you very much for addressing this vital issue. I just want to share that there are some meetings that are continuing to meet. In particular, in Severna Park, there's a meeting every morning at 6:00 a.m., and it's at the 513 Center Drive in Severna Park. The group is called Wake Up West. And we practice social distancing, and we limit the meeting to 10 people. If an eleventh person comes in, then somebody with a significant amount of time will go ahead and step out.

NNAMDIOkay.

JIMBut there are valuable resources available.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you very much for sharing that. Matt, were you aware that there were some meetings still taking place?

M.Yes, I am aware that there are a handful of meetings still taking place. If you look at the different northern Virginia intergroup website with the Washington intergroup as well, you'll see there are maybe a handful of meetings still taking place. I also have heard that certain groups of people have actually even -- you know, a person may have a large backyard, and they're having five or so people come and do a social distance meeting on their own property.

M.Or, you know, some of the outdoor meetings were taking place at the parks before the parks in this area had shut down. And if more than 10 people came, you know, we were splitting into two different groups and doing meetings that way, but while still, you know, minding all the laws.

NNAMDIAlso joining us is Dr. Reginald Cunningham, counseling psychiatrist and the CEO and owner of Counseling Solutions in Washington, D.C. Reginald Cunningham, thank you for joining us.

REGINALD CUNNINGHAMThank you for having me.

NNAMDIWhat is your approach with your patients right now who are struggling with addiction?

CUNNINGHAMRight now, what we're seeing in my particular clinic is we're just basically providing them with support and giving them certain types of outlets, such as, you know, adopting an accountability partner, or such. Or making sure that if they're in 12-step programs, to ensure that they are staying connected to their network, their network primarily, you know, being spearheaded by their sponsor, and other alcoholics in their network, as well.

NNAMDISince in-person AA meetings are no longer happening, Dr. Cunningham, how do we know if Zoom meetings or FaceTime calls are actually working? Could the situation for alcoholics be worse than anyone knows right now?

CUNNINGHAMWell, you know, that's a good question. I think that because of people who are committed to their recovery, I think they are taking advantage of these electronic meetings and finding the support that they need during this time. It's difficult, and just like the gentleman from Serenity says, you know, isolation is a trigger to most addicts. But as long as they stay connected, and what we're seeing is that, you know, we're making sure that we follow up with our patients that are addicted. We make sure that they are staying connected to that network, because the network, particularly with 12-step programs, is very strong.

NNAMDIHere's Martha, in Falls Church, Virginia. Martha, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MARTHAHi, Kojo. Thanks. I just wanted to mention I've been in recovery in AA for 26 years, and I'm absolutely having zero problems not drinking alcohol during this time. I mean, that is no longer a solution for me. I don't need to drink booze to stay calm or deal with challenging situations. That's the whole point of recovery, is learning much more effective strategies. So, just wanted to let you guys know that.

NNAMDIOh, of course. Thank you for sharing that with us. I'd like also to hear from David in Reston, Virginia. David, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DAVIDHi, Kojo, and thank you for the program. I just have one very quick comment, and that is, I'm a person who participates in the Zoom meetings after some years of going to in-person meeting, like most of us. And an unexpected benefit of those Zoom meetings for me has been that I sort of meet, as it were, new people.

DAVIDAnybody can log in, so we get often a broader range of people. People who are used to going to physical meetings, like me, I'm very set in my ways. I go to certain meetings all the time. And now, when I go on Zoom, I never know who's going to be on there. And there are usually more people on the Zoom meetings than there are in the in-person meetings. And so it's a broader range of people. You hear new stories. You have new sources of support. And, possibly, you're able to have a greater impact than you might have in your usual circle of in-person meetings. That's all.

NNAMDIThank you very much for sharing that with us. The Zoom meetings are obviously working out very well for David. But, Reginald Cunningham, do you expect an increase of people who typically do not abuse alcohol or other substances to increase because of the worry and the uncertainty of our new reality?

CUNNINGHAMI do believe that that is something to consider. You know, as I was listening to the two people who just called in, I think what we really have to be aware of are those individuals who are new in their recovery process, or newly trying to limit their drinking. But, yes, I do believe that because of this pandemic and because of this stay at home, you know, and all of the other familial or things that are going on in families, that it's possible that people may turn to alcohol and increase that use. And that's definitely something to consider.

NNAMDIMatt, what advice would you give to anyone listening that is still struggling with alcohol? They can't go to an in-person meeting or have a coffee with their sponsor, so what can they do?

M.So, first of all, I would recommend -- I'd like, you know, to give some information where you can find where these Zoom meetings are.

NNAMDISure.

M.And the first one is if you go to our website, serenity-club.org. And from there we have links to local meetings, as well as we have links to the northern Virginia intergroup, the AA intergroup and a Washington area intergroup. But those individual websites for the AA intergroup or AA-intergroup.org, northern Virginia intergroup is NVintergroup.org. And the Washington area intergroup is AA-DC.org. Any one of those four websites will take you to a plethora of the online meetings.

M.Some of the other things, it was already mentioned by Dr. Cunningham, stay connected with your sponsor, your recovery network. Even if it's not face-to-face, it's still important to take positive actions, rather than standing by. We still want to stay busy, even if it's hobbies or puzzles, exercising, journaling. Pick up the thousand-pound phone and make the phone call. And remember, this, too, shall pass. You know, what we have in front of us is temporary.

M.And I'd just like to make one other comment too. I definitely believe that while this is difficult even for us to have, you know, a solid foundation and are connected, I just imagine it's got to be much more difficult for the newcomer who maybe isn't. So, please reach out.

M.And then, on the converse, that the caller David was saying, you know, my father is in recovery, as well. He's elderly, he struggles with neuropathy, doesn't walk a lot, can't drive. And he's thriving, because instead of three or four meetings a week, he's doing two meetings a day, 14 meetings a week. And he's making more connections and getting more meetings. And so there is a converse side for some people. I know a lot of the elderly or older population maybe is -- you know, is a little more technologically challenged, you know. But I've got my dad set up on the meetings and he's thriving.

NNAMDI(overlapping) He seems to feel that the meetings are helping him even more than the in-person meetings.

CUNNINGHAMWell, I think it's just the number of them. You know, he's getting a meeting every morning at 7:30 a.m., and another one every night at 7:00 p.m. And before, his meetings were kind of sporadic. He'd have to catch an Uber or catch a ride with someone, or whatever. Now, he's going to three times as many meetings, in his mind.

NNAMDIHere's Skip in Herndon. Skip, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

SKIPHi. I'm actually a member of Narcotics Anonymous, which is also a 12-step program similar to AA. And, yeah, I do hear -- I mean, I've been able to participate in a lot of online meetings. And there's a lot of people who have expressed quite a bit of anxiety because they're really more comfortable with the in-person meetings. But that, at the same time, you know, we're open to change, and we kind of do any means necessary.

SKIPJust this past weekend, there was a scheduled convention in Ocean City, which usually draws a lot of people, and, obviously, that was cancelled. So, our region, the Chesapeake Potomac area or region, basically we just kind of put together a bunch of different speaker jams where there was up to like 300-and-some people in one long, almost a 24-hour session. So, I mean, we're still functioning, and we're still getting -- I think people who called earlier were stating there's a lot more meetings that are a lot more accessible now because of the online presence.

NNAMDIMatt, do you think this can, in some ways, represent a permanent development in that people -- well, give a listen to what Meredith in Washington has to say, before you respond. Meredith, your turn.

MEREDITHHi, Kojo. This is Meredith. One thing they'd want to note is, yeah, there have been a lot of virtual options for people in recovery for a long time. And I do think, as you were saying to Matt, that this will expand that opportunity. And I've really been able to take advantage of going to meetings or events in different states. So, I've gone to meetings in L.A., Baltimore, New York City and my home state of Minnesota.

MEREDITHSo, it's been interesting to hear people be able to connect with their home groups that they haven't been near, because they're traveling for a long time. And I think that's created a new sense of solidarity for people, as well. So, there's a lot of options. I also have Sober Ladies D.C., which is a group that coordinates -- you know, we have virtual hangs that we're doing, as well kind of more casual. So, there are a lot of opportunities out there for people in D.C. and all over the area.

NNAMDINow, Matt, care to comment on that?

M.Yes, sir. I definitely agree with Meredith. I do think this will open up opportunities for a certain percentage of the people. And, again, I've experienced where I'm in meetings with people all around the country, as well. However, I don't think that the majority of the people that I've spoken with, nothing takes the place of that human contact, the face to face, the sitting in the room, the camaraderie, the meeting before the meeting, the meeting after the meeting and then everyone going to, you know, Starbucks, or wherever we go and hanging out. Or just, you know, even just a group of people standing in the parking lot before and after.

M.So, I certainly don't think that meeting numbers are going to drop off, in-person meetings, when this is all over. But I do think maybe some people will supplement that with extra meetings, you know, when they, you know, have the opportunity where they can just go online or do something, you know, like the example I gave you with my father. You know, he may still do the online meetings in the morning, if they're available, and then go to his in-person meetings as often as possible.

NNAMDIDr. Cunningham, in the 30 seconds we have left, as a counselor, what advice would you give to someone listening right now who is struggling?

CUNNINGHAMI definitely would advise that those individuals you know, to contact their counselor, to contact their recovering network, their sponsor. Stay connected. That is the biggest advantage to AA, NA or any other 12-step program is to make sure that you do stay in contact with your network. That's your support. That's your accountability. And, again, go back to the primary tenet of AA and NA. One day at a time, you can make it through.

NNAMDIDr. Reginald Cunningham is a counseling psychiatrist and the CEO and owner of Counseling Solutions in Washington, D.C. Matt M. is a recovering alcoholic, president of the Serenity Club in Alexandria. He's also a certified addiction counselor. Thank you both for joining us.

NNAMDIJoining us now is Jenn Michelle Pedini, who is the development director with the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws, also known as NORML, and executive director of Virginia NORML. Medical marijuana dispensaries in D.C. and Maryland have been deemed essential businesses, but how are patients getting their medicine during this stay-at-home pandemic? And has Virginia moved any closer to legalizing medicinal or recreational marijuana? Jenn Michelle Pedini, thank you so much for joining us.

JENN MICHELLE PEDINIThanks so much for having me, Kojo.

NNAMDIHow have D.C. and Maryland modified their medical marijuana laws since the pandemic started and the industry was deemed essential?

PEDINIWell, fortunately, as you said, both D.C. and Maryland were designated essential services for their medical cannabis dispensaries. So, they are able to maintain operations. And both states have also implemented delivery of medical cannabis as an option, and the ability to pick products up curbside. Now, they're also implementing some Telehealth protocols, as well.

NNAMDIAre doctors in D.C. and Maryland still able to see patients and prescribe marijuana?

PEDINIYeah. So, both in the District and in Maryland there is an allowance for Telehealth. And if the practitioner is already seeing patients for nonemergency appointments, of course, they would be able to see patients in that way. Maryland is temporarily allowing these certifications to be issued through Telehealth whereas the District is currently only allowing renewals of these certifications by Telehealth appointment.

NNAMDIVirginia Governor Ralph Northam recently signed two bills that will drastically change the state's marijuana laws. What change will the state be seeing?

PEDINISo, Virginia did have sweeping changes in this legislative session, which, fortunately, was largely wrapped up prior to the pandemic. So, we're one of the few states that is going to see some major change. Virginia has been implementing its medical cannabis program for some years now. Products will finally be available to patients in midsummer. And one of the bills that Governor Northam has signed takes Virginia's program and makes it legal under state law.

PEDINIPreviously, patients were only afforded limited protections, but now Virginia's program will be legal, as well as the approval of some other legislation that will create more dispensaries and a wider range of products for patients.

NNAMDIJenn Michelle Pedini, if someone in Virginia was caught with an ounce of marijuana today, what would the penalty be?

PEDINIWell, today that would be a felony. Now, when the decriminalization laws take effect on July 1, that will change dramatically to a simple $25 civil penalty, with no record.

NNAMDIOh, okay. So, on what date will that change take place?

PEDINIJuly 1 is when our laws take effect in this state.

NNAMDIJenn Michelle, how have states classified medical and recreational marijuana across the country, since state-at-home orders were issued?

PEDINIIt's been different from state to state, and NORML is tracking that. So, on our website, there's a chart that consumers can refer to to see what the designation is in their state, if delivery or curbside or Telehealth are available. Most states have adopted essential service designation for their medical programs. Some have extended that to their adult-use programs, as well, whereas some simply have not.

NNAMDISo, if someone is still having difficulty getting a medical marijuana prescription filled in this region, Maryland, the District or Virginia, what should that person do?

PEDINIWell, they should really look first on the NORML website to see what is available in their state. And then they might want to reach out to the regulatory agency for that particular state. Because patients in the District and in Maryland should be able to have their recommendations filled at their dispensaries that are operational right now. Virginians are going to have to wait a little bit longer, until probably about the middle of this year.

NNAMDINORML has been around for more than five decades. And now the majority of Americans believe that marijuana should be legal in this country. But will the drug ever actually be legalized nationwide, do you think?

PEDINIOh, absolutely. As you mentioned, NORML begins its 50th anniversary celebration this year. And when NORML was first founded and began its work way back in 1970, only 12 percent of the American public supported the legalization of marijuana. Now, over half of the United States supports legalizing marijuana, removing it from the Controlled Substances Act and allowing states to set their own policies free from federal interference.

PEDINIWill we see that day? Of course, we will, but really, Congress is going to have to take action on that. And that's only going to happen when voters vote for candidates who support that measure, and when they are in regular communication with those who are representing them in Congress in favor of these changes.

NNAMDIWe only have about 30 seconds left. Do we have any data on how medical marijuana dispensaries in this region have been affected by the economic fallout of this pandemic?

PEDINISo, throughout the country, we are definitely seeing increased sales during the pandemic for regulated retail marijuana.

NNAMDIAnd I'm afraid that's about all the time we have. Jenn Michelle Pedini is the development director with the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws and executive director of Virginia NORML. Thank you for joining us.

PEDINIThanks so much, Kojo.

NNAMDIThis segment on staying sober during the pandemic was produced by Kurt Gardinier. And our conversation on how the coronavirus is disproportionately hurting communities of color was produced by Kayla Hewitt. Coming up tomorrow, the 2020 Tokyo Olympics have been postponed for a year. What does that mean for Olympic and Paralympic hopefuls? Plus, Esther Safran Foer joins us to discuss her recently published memoir, "I Want You to Know We're Still Here," about her journey into the mysteries of her family's past. That all starts tomorrow, at noon. Until then, thank you for listening and stay safe. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.