KOJO NNAMDIWelcome back. "Gun & Powder" is a musical based on the somewhat-true story of two black women in post-emancipation pre-civil rights America who convinced the world that they were white. The show gets its world premiere tomorrow at Arlington Signature Theater with a nationally-recognized cast and director. Before he took on "Gun & Powder," Robert O'Hara directed the acclaimed "Slave Play," which rocked Broadway with its raw and provocative depictions of interracial couples.

KOJO NNAMDILess raw, but still provocative, "Gun & Powder" is first and foremost the work of its playwright. She wrote the musical from family stories about the Clarke sisters, stories passed down to her, their great-great niece. How did this new musical take shape? What is it trying to convey, and why is it going up for the very first time in Northern Virginia? Joining us to explain all of this is Angelica Cheri. She is the playwright and lyricist of "Gun & Powder." Angelica, thank you for joining us.

ANGELICA CHERIThank you for having me.

NNAMDIAlso with us in studio is Robert O'Hara. He is the director of "Gun & Powder." Robert O'Hara, thank you for joining us.

ROBERT O'HARAThank you.

NNAMDIAngelica, you were in a Masters Degree program at New York University when you were tasked to write a musical. Why did you choose to write about the Clarke sisters?

CHERISo, it's interesting enough, because in that second year, when we -- well, the first year, when we're starting to think about thesis projects, we're tasked to come to pitch ideas to our potential collaborators. And we had lots of different discussions about what could make material for our musical. And one of the things that we focused on was an historical figure, in our source material classes. And without thinking about, oh, maybe I should do some research about Ida B. Wells or Sojourner Truth, I was just thinking to myself, well, I've got these historical figures in my own family.

NNAMDI(overlapping) I'll just pull them out of my own head.

CHERII'll just pull them out of my own -- exactly, out of my own family photo album. And so, just the picture of Mary and Martha Clarke was always the subject of awe and wonder in our family. And so I thought, well, this has got some musical energy that I feel like we can pull out of this narrative.

NNAMDIWhy were those pictures the subject of awe and wonder?

CHERIWell, because I'm an African American woman, and then flipping through pages and pages of people who looked like me, and all my life turning to their page, and then in the middle of the photo album, two white women, it would always sort of stop the show whenever, like, a family reunion or some sort of gathering at grandmother's house, and here comes the photo album. And...

NNAMDIYou're like who are these white women in our family photo?

CHERIWho are these white ladies in this family? And then we'd have to go through the narrative again. These are actually black women. They're your great, great aunties. They passed for white, and that's about the end of the continuity, because after that point, every uncle, every auntie, every cousin had a different piece of the narrative that they had to add. So, that's another reason. It's just, like, a tall tale that keeps spinning.

NNAMDIWell, without giving too much away, tell us the story of "Gun & Powder."

CHERIWell, so Mary and Martha Clarke are sharecroppers. It's 1893 in Marlin, Texas, and they and their mother are tasked with working the Billingsly cotton plantation. And they, all of a sudden, one fine morning, discovered that they are short, and there is a deficit. And so rather than trying to scrape and save and put money together the traditional way that they would've always done, they decided they're going to make a choice to pass for white and see what other kind of opportunities that would afford them. And that's when we swirl down the rabbit hole.

NNAMDIThe other opportunity that was presented to them involves a gun.

CHERIWell, that came a little later. (laugh)

NNAMDIThat's all I'll tell you for the time. but...

CHERIRight.

NNAMDI...how much of this story, as far as you know, is true?

CHERIWell, it's like a quilt of fact and fiction. There are little pieces of family narratives that have been told to me. And I can't verify whether or not which narrative is true or not. because there's just no historical documentation. I don't know who's embellishing. No one can really verify. It's all family oral traditions, so it's part what I've been told and part what my collaborator and I thought was the most exciting.

NNAMDIRobert, you're an award-winning playwright director with a national reputation who recently had a Broadway hit with "Slave Play." You surely have your pick of projects. Why did you choose to direct "Gun & Powder?"

O'HARAWell, I like to work with innovative artists. And so, when I got this project, I thought there was something special in it. It was a story that we don't normally see told, and characters who were centralized, that we don't normally see, in the center of a narrative. And the music was glorious, and the lyrics were amazing. So, it was just very exciting.

NNAMDIYes. There's not much this normal about the story. (laugh) Angelica, how did "Gun & Powder" wind up with its world premiere in Arlington, Virginia?

CHERISo, Ross and I -- Ross Baum my collaborator, the composer -- we finished the project in our thesis year at NYU in 2015. And, from that moment, it just sort of went down a development track. We did multiple workshops and rewrote certain pieces of it. And we found ourselves applying to the SigWorks lab, which was a two-week long workshop that the Signature Theater offered an opportunity.

CHERIAnd we applied, and out of 170 submissions, we were the one musical chosen for the two-week workshop by the former development director, Joe Calarco. And so we had just an amazing opportunity to do some really deep diving with his help and with a cast of, I think it was, 10 -- or wait, maybe seven to 10 actors at the time. And so, we just developed that relationship with the Signature from that workshop. And, you know, they continued to champion the show, and, all of a sudden, a production offer came.

NNAMDIRobert O'Hara, you yourself have some history, some theatrical roots in the Washington region. What are your connections?

O'HARAI'm a member of the Woolly Mammoth Theatre Company, and I've done several shows there, both written and directed. And I direct at the Arena Theater. This is my first time directing at the Signature.

NNAMDIAngelica, what was your reaction when you heard that Robert O'Hara was interested in directing your musical? (laugh)

CHERI(laugh) Complete shock and awe. I said it jokingly, but it was true. When we were talking about people who we would love to work with, of course, his name was at the top of our list. And we thought it was such a long shot, there was no way Robert O'Hara's going to be interested in us. We're two kids. You know, we're unknown. We haven't had anything produced yet. And when we had a conversation with him, I could hear pages flipping. And I thought, oh, he printed the script. (laugh) He was that invested, you know, in our little story? And so it just really touched me, the investment that he had placed just, you know, in our initial conversation. And it was really thrilling.

NNAMDIIn case you're just joining us, we're talking with Angelica Cheri. She's the playwright and lyricist of "Gun & Powder." Robert O'Hara is the director of the musical. Robert, tell us about the cast. It's my understanding you've got some "Hamilton" alumni in "Gun & Powder."

O'HARAYes. I think there are three people who've had a history with "Hamilton." One, Emmy, was in the original production.

NNAMDIEmmy Raver-Lampman?

O'HARAYes, yes, and she plays Martha. The person who is playing Elijah has actually taken a leave of absence from the current tour of "Hamilton" on the West Coast to come join us, and that's Donald. And Mary is played by Solea and I think that she was in "Hamilton". And I think they both play sisters.

NNAMDISolea Pfeiffer, yeah.

O'HARAYeah, she played sisters with Emmy.

NNAMDIIn "Hamilton."

O'HARAYeah, on the road.

NNAMDINow they're sisters again. You draw some parallels between "Hamilton" and "Gun & Powder." What do they have in common, in your view?

O'HARAWell, I think that they're period pieces that have a modern sensibility. Also, it is placing, at the core, black bodies and brown bodies in a time where, you know, there was either -- you think of those bodies as being slaves, or then in the civil rights. And so there's very few theatrical pieces that operate in that in-between, which is exciting, actually, to me.

NNAMDIAngelica, when I asked you about your reaction to hearing that Robert O'Hara was directing the play, it's my understanding that you wanted the play to have an African American director. Is that because of the nuances of race and mixed race in this play?

CHERIThat's correct. We felt strongly that, in order to tell with authenticity and just with the sensitivity and the truth of the color dynamics, the color politics and all the different implications of the history of the time period, it was just so important to have it in the hands of someone who identify with that history.

NNAMDIMarsha in Raleigh, North Carolina. Marsha, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MARSHAGood afternoon.

NNAMDIGood afternoon.

O'HARAHi.

CHERIHi.

MARSHAI just wanted to tell Angelica, I'm so glad she didn't listen to me 12 years ago when I told her to get a job at the bank.

NNAMDI(overlapping) How do you know Angelica?

MARSHAAngelica and I are cousins.

CHERIThis is my cousin. (laugh) She's actually a Clarke descendent. Hi, Marsha. (laugh) She's coming to the first preview tomorrow.

O'HARASo, this was a setup.

MARSHAOh, yes.

CHERII had no idea she was calling.

MARSHAMy husband and I are driving up, and we'll be there.

CHERIOh, my gosh.

NNAMDISo, I interrupted you. What were you saying when you began, Marsha?

MARSHAI said, many years ago when Angelica was in college I said, you know, I don't know if this writing thing is a good way to make a living. And, you know, she worked as a loan officer at the bank, and I thought, yeah, maybe you ought to do this writing thing for fun in the afternoons and stuff. So, I'm so glad she didn't listen to me.

CHERII love you, Marsha.

MARSHALove you, too.

NNAMDISo, as opposed to being our local bank manager, (laugh) she is now a playwright who has a production going. Well, Marsha, thank you very much for calling. I think you will enjoy it when you come up here.

MARSHAOkay. Look forward to it. Good luck tomorrow.

NNAMDIYou, too, can join the conversation. Give us a call, 800-433-8850. What do you think of the theater as a place to take on tough questions? Give us a call: 800-433-8850. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking about "Gun & Powder," which opens at Signature Theater tomorrow night. We're talking with the director, Robert O'Hara, and Angelica Cheri, the playwright and lyricist of "Gun & Powder." I'm taking your calls at 800-433-8850. Angelica, let's talk for a moment about casting Martha and Mary, who, in real life, were light complexions. You've noticed the societal tendency to privilege light skin and have said you don't want to perpetuate that prejudice. But was there a conscious decision to cast light-skinned actresses for the lead?

CHERIThere was. Actually, in the development cycle, there have been moments where we did workshops and readings. And the theaters that we worked on regionally came to Ross and myself and said, we have two wonderful African American actresses who can sing and play these parts, but they can't pass for white. And we made the decision to say, that's fine for the purposes of the workshop.

CHERIAnd, after each workshop, there was always this sort of response from the audience that, oh, I went on the journey without having to think and see them being able to pass. And so there was, for a moment, that we entertained, well, what if we cast African American women of any skin tone? And so we were kind of, you know, oscillating between what we would want to do.

CHERIAnd when Robert came onboard, he was very clear about the fact that we should honor the color politics of the situation and what that means and the privileges of lighter skin versus darker skin. Because without having actresses who actually are of that complexion, that gets lost.

NNAMDIWhat were your thoughts on that issue, Robert?

O'HARAWell, I just feel like, you know, the writer's interest in having an African American director is my same interest in having someone who can pass, because they have a relationship to that that we don't. And you will see and you can sense in their performance that this is a role that now they can actually play themselves, as opposed to playing other people. And there's been a lot of conversation about how differently it is to be on the stage playing someone that you can identify with, as opposed to someone that you have to make up. So, that was important to me.

NNAMDIAngelica, in the play, as they are passing as white, you have one sister fall in love with a white man, and the other a black man. How and why is that plot twist critical to the story?

O'HARAYou just gave away the plot.

CHERIDon’t spoil it. (laugh)

NNAMDIMy bad.

CHERIWell, I think the love story is very centrally connected to the identity story. And, without giving anything away, the choices of what it means when you gravitate towards the privilege that passing has been able to afford you and the draw of someone who is trying to remain close to her own identity, and that's the split between Mary and Martha that we see them grapple with for the greater half of the play: how do we get back to our center?

NNAMDIHere now is Tamikia in Alexandria, Virginia. Tamikia, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

TAMIKIAHello. So, I am a teaching artist in the D.C. area with a couple of organizations. And I think that theater is just such a wonderful place to take on hard topics, because it distances you from it, but it also brings up really interesting ways to think about either things that happen in our history or things that have happened in our society.

TAMIKIAAnd I brought up that I was a teaching artist because last summer I devised a show with sixth through eighth graders. And, the ending of the show, the original show, was pretty tragic, actually. And the reaction when they read the first draft was to kind of go, we can't end a show like this. But it opened the door to a really wonderful conversation of why people go to theater. And whether or not it is to enjoy themselves in distance or if, you know, there are these opportunities to challenge ourselves and to push, like, what we think and what we know in order to make change in our own selves and our own world. And it was just a great way to converse with them about that.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call. Last night, when I went to the production, I saw the last dress rehearsal ,but on the way there, my wife asked if we're going to be staying for the Q&A after (laugh) the production. I said, no. Tonight there's no Q&A. But our caller does make the point that issues that are tough to discuss find theater as an appropriate venue. I'd like to hear your thoughts about that. First you, Robert.

O'HARAWell, you saw the first and the last dress rehearsal, (laugh) because we had not done a full rehearsal. But I think that theater is a place to have those conversations. I think that, unfortunately, more people come to the theater to get answers and, actually, I'm not interested in providing answers. I'm interested in providing questions and allowing the conversation to happen outside afterwards, actually. So, that is a perfect place for that because it's live and it's in front of you. And you can feel and hear and taste and smell it, actually.

NNAMDIWas that in your head, Angelica, while you were writing this play?

CHERIThe conversations that would happen?

NNAMDIMm-hmm.

CHERIYou know, I think in writing I'm writing to hit the truth in the eye, and I'm not thinking about the reception. The reception of it comes in the process of rewriting and then understanding and clarifying. But I think it's always initially about telling the story the most truthfully, and from that place of honesty, the most intriguing conversations have come up.

NNAMDIWe don't want to forget that this play is always a musical. It's the part of the play that I really enjoyed. So, let's hear some music. This is Solea Pfeiffer as Mary Clarke and Emmy Raver-Lampman as Martha Clarke, singing "Freedom."

NNAMDIThe song "Freedom," from the production "Gun & Powder." Angelica, you wrote the lyrics to the songs in "Gun & Powder," but who wrote the music, and what's the history of your collaboration?

CHERIRoss Baum, my brilliant collaborator, he is the composer of "Gun & Powder." And we were students at NYU together. The first year in the program is, like, composer and you, and you're just speed dating, where you rotate and write different projects with different people. And then you make the decision to choose a partner to write a full thesis musical with. And we just had an instant connection artistically. And we have had so many different conversations about why people sing and what the voice is doing. And I just knew instantly that he was the right person for this particular show.

NNAMDIWell, you said you really wanted a black director for "Gun & Powder," and you got one, but Baum is a white man. Yet you say he was the right person to write the music. How come?

CHERIYes. Well, so, Ross, for one, he is a performer, and he understands the power of the voice, and he knows how to write for the voice. He's a singer, and I believe that the musical sensibility that he has, growing up in the theater, growing up outside of New York City and watching Broadway performances his entire life, he just absorbed so much of that musical energy.

CHERIAnd my partner's also Jewish, and so I think we also have to honor the Diasporac nature of both of our backgrounds. They're not the same Diaspora, but we have the same experience of oppression, of mass assassination and of just searching for that place of home in our own spaces and our cultures. And so we share that in common, and we have that language to refer to.

NNAMDIYou don't have much formal musical training, and you don't play an instrument, but you had a strong sense of what would work musically in "Gun & Powder." Where does that come from?

CHERIThat's right. I just have been around music so often in my life. My father is a singer, and I've just been exposed to so many different types of music. And I think when we write musical theater, it's not about picking a genre. It's about understanding the people and understanding the environment in which they're singing. And you can't dictate that. Like, you have to be able to sense what sort of song comes out of a moment, or what sort of person is yearning to express something in a certain way, musically and vocally. And that's something that we have a very easy conversation and shorthand when we are crafting a narrative together.

NNAMDIEven though "Gun & Powder" has not yet been seen by an audience, you and Ross Baum have already won a prestigious award for it. How does that work, and what did you win?

CHERISo, the award is the Richard Rodgers Award, and it's something that you apply to. It's an opportunity for new musical theater writers. And it was just about us looking for as many different opportunities to get our show seen and read and reviewed by people, and to open doors. Because, of course, now that we have that stamp of approval, it has opened the doors for many other people to become interested in the show.

NNAMDIHow do you present to win the award?

CHERISo, we submitted, I believe, about 45 minutes worth of music and book, and it's reviewed by a panel. And after we had been selected, there was one other show, “KPop,” actually, that was selected in the same year as us. And it affords us grant money for another workshop opportunity. So, it's not the award to say, this is wonderful and it's perfect and it's finished. It's the award to say, you have some great potential here. We're going to support the further...

NNAMDI(overlapping) Get it up.

CHERI...exactly, do it and make it better.

NNAMDIRobert, the song we heard a few minutes go was a very soulful song. How would you describe the music of "Gun & Powder"? What types of music will audiences hear?

O'HARAYou know, it's interesting, because that song is a solo, but they sort of made it into a duet there for the purposes of presenting it. And I think there is a lot of different styles in it. There's R&B and there's blues. There's pop in it. I think it crosses genres, actually.

NNAMDIHere now is Tim in Frederick, Maryland. Tim, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

TIMHi. Thank you for taking my call. So, I'm a New York City playwright and Virginia winemaker, but I did many plays in New York City. And just one comment I really wanted to make is that one of the things that got me into theater was I was in a production of "1776" at the public playhouse in Chevrolet, Maryland. I was around 10 years old, but the whole cast was all black women. (laugh)

CHERIOh, wow.

TIMBlack women, and also young women. So, it was a very good production. It was well done, but it got some mixed reviews and such like that. And it was just a real inspiration experience for me as a, you know, a young artist and then budding playwright later on. The majority of my characters that I write are all women. You know, I'm speaking from a white man perspective, (laugh) so I try really hard to, like, kind of workshop plays. And it's just very inspiring to hear what this show is down here.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you very much for your call, Tim. Robert, let's talk about the choreographies for a moment. What were you and the choreographers trying to achieve here?

O'HARAWell, you know, choreography is tricky, because it also has to tell a story. And sometimes you see choreography, and it's all about the dance, and it's not telling a story. And there's a lot of words in people's mouths being sung. So, we wanted to make clear that our first priority is to tell you the narrative. And he is really, really good with working with people who don't consider themselves dancers first.

O'HARAAnd so we have wonderful actors and singers who can move and who can dance. And that takes a skillset, as opposed to going into a room full of dancers and trying to get them to be actors and singers at the same time. So, that's a different type of musical. And we auditioned singers and actors, and were hoping that they had movement skills. And so we wanted it to be connected to the narrative.

NNAMDIAlmost out of time. Angelica, you say that 10 years ago if someone had told you that you would be writing musicals, you would have laughed in disbelief. Why?

CHERIBecause I just wasn't the biggest fan of musical theater, growing up. There were a few, like "Lion King" and "Sound of Music," some of those bigger-than-life sounds. But I didn't see myself represented in musical theater, and so I just felt like it wasn't for me. But I think the exposure to it at Columbia, when I was in that program and doing a study of "Caroline, or Change," where a black woman working in the basement of a family and doing laundry, and there can be a musical that's centered around her and her journey. That just sort of gave me permission to say, oh, this is what can be done through musical theater. It's not about who's represented. It's about what the form does. And so now I'm thankful to be able to have that in my toolbox.

NNAMDIFor anyone who wants to see "Gun & Powder" at the Signature Theater, how long will it be in town?

CHERIUntil the 23rd of February.

NNAMDIAnd it starts tomorrow, on January 28th. Angelica Cheri is the playwright and lyricist of "Gun & Powder." Thank you so much for joining us. Good luck to you.

CHERIThank you.

NNAMDIRobert O'Hara is the director of "Gun & Powder." Robert, thank you for gracing us with your presence.

O'HARAThank you.

NNAMDIThis segment about "Gun & Powder" was produced by Lauren Markoe, and our conversation about electric school buses was produced by Richard Cunningham. Join us tomorrow, when we talk about how climate change is affecting our local weather patterns, from flash floods to heat waves. It's the second segment in our series on the local consequences of climate change. That all starts tomorrow, at noon. Until then, thank you for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.