MARC FISHERYou're tuned in to The Kojo Nnamdi Show. I'm Marc Fisher of The Washington Post sitting in for Kojo. Later in the hour Virginia legislators are about to propose new protections for student journalists, but first ...

MARC FISHERYou're hearing "A Rapist in Your Way," a Chilean protest anthem that's becoming a tune heard at women's movements around the world. It will be heard on the streets of Washington when the fourth Women's March takes place on Saturday. The 2017 march was by some counts the largest single day protest in American history. Each year since it's gotten progressively smaller, and the national organization has struggled with allegations of financial mismanagement and antisemitism. This year the Women's March in D.C. is led by a new board of directors. They're shifting the focus of the march trying to rekindle the flames of 2017.

MARC FISHERBut the movement's impact and future remain unsettled. And joining us to discuss the 2020 Women's March are Marissa Lang. She's a Breaking News Reporter at The Washington Post. Welcome.

MARISSA LANGThank you for having me.

FISHERAnd Ginna Green is a Women's March National Board Member and Chief Strategic Officer of Bend the Arc. Welcome to you.

GINNA GREENThank you.

FISHERMarissa Lang, let's start with you. You wrote a piece in Sunday's Washington Post that ran under the headline "Nobody Needs Another Pink Hat: Why the Women's March is Struggling for Relevance." Why is it struggling for relevance?

LANGI want to clarify that was a quote. I didn't say, "No one needs another pink hat." It's struggled for years in part, because of sort of a twofold issue. One is the Women's March was super successful in 2017 in bringing out waves of new women who have never protested who got involved and they wanted more. They got involved in activism in politics. Women ran for political office in numbers we've seen before. And some of those women as a result have distanced from the organization because they have other things to do and they're doing a lot in their communities. And then they've also sort of struggled because of backlash to a number of controversies some of which you mentioned including allegations of antisemitism that affected the previous board that left late last year.

FISHERAnd so what have you -- as you've seen this evolution of the Women's March, what's your conclusion about why it has shrunk over the years?

LANGSo experts that I've talked to that focus on protest movements and have watched the Women's March closely say that part of it is the dwindling numbers, because, you know, women have either found other somethings to do or they've distanced themselves from Women's March specifically for a number of reasons. Also over time people get tired. People who are protesting. There are more than 800 protests a year in Washington D.C. And outrage is exhausting. So there are some people who are just burned out. Maybe they don't want to come out to the march. And if we're talking about Saturday, the weather forecast looks pretty bleak. So that's definitely going to impact turnout.

FISHERGinna Green, as a board member now of the Women's March, this question of does anybody need another pink hat certainly has been on your mind. Why do you think -- the same question we asked Marissa Lang. Why have the numbers shrunk? Is that important and in a larger state question is why are people coming and why are they not coming?

GREENThank you for having me on today's show, and these are really great questions. And you're absolutely right that the Women's March has been thinking about this as we've watched our numbers over the last few years. And I would just say that Marissa is correct that protest is fatiguing. It is hard. It is hard work. And being out in the streets is challenging. We also know that we've got 160 plus sister marches taking place across the country. So even while it is exhausting, I think there is realization that this is a moment. And the Women's March is a movement built for this moment.

GREENAnd we have created the space, the opportunity and the platform for women who haven't been involved in issues before and folks who have been around the block a few times to come out and focus on these issues that are really of paramount importance for us right now. Obviously the number one of those being getting Trump out of office at the end of November.

FISHERMarissa Lang, you mentioned these controversies that hit the Women's March after the enormous success in 2017 particularly you talked about how Jewish women fled the organization on mass after the former co-chairs were accused of making anti-Semitic remarks or aligning themselves with Louis Farrakhan, the Nation of Islam leader, which was a similar controversy what happened to the Million Man March some years back. How do you think the organizer of the march have handled this? Have they moved beyond it or have they put it behind them?

LANGSo the previous board members, who were the recipient of a lot of that outrage did their best last year to make in rounds into the Jewish community. They went out of their way to include Jewish women. They had a banner at the front of last year's Women's March that was carried by a number of Jewish women. And they tried to say, We understand and we're working to make this better and to rebuild this relationship. There's a lot of Jewish women, who still don't trust the organization who have left who have done differently. But the new board includes a number of Jewish women and it includes a much more diverse cross section of women from different backgrounds. And so in that way the organization has tried to signal, We're taking these concerns seriously. And we hear you.

FISHERAnd Ginna Green, as someone who is both African American and Jewish, are you part of that signal to women around the country that the page has been turned?

GREENAbsolutely. And I was one of those Jewish women of color, who led the Women's March last year along with Jaywalk Marching who organized a strong contingent of more than 70 Jewish women of color from around the country to signal that when conversations get challenging and when they get difficult movement work is about staying in a relationship and about staying in conversation. And so I definitely believe that this new vision the new direction will take those steps from last year and go even deeper and even further. There's certainly healing to be done. We're not done fixing the wounds of antisemitism by any stretch. We're not done fixing the wounds of racism by any stretch or transphobia by any stretch. There's a lot of work still to do and we can't do it if we're not in conversation and we don't stay at the table. So I'm delighted to be a part of that movement going forward.

FISHERWe have a comment from Sean who wrote on Facebook, I wish they'd have a people's march against sexism instead. Do you get that kind of reaction from people? This has come up in recent days in the debate between Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. And there were a couple of opinion columns out in the last day or so about the distinction between people, who are focused on economic policies or the Sander's crowd talks about that, and some of the Warren folks who say that there is more an emphasis on their side on identity politics. Is that division within the Democratic Party and its base having an impact on your ability to put together a coalition that is as broad as you had at the beginning of the Women's March?

GREENI think that if you are someone, who believes in the ability and the need for every single one of us to be in this country and thrive and live our dignity and live our purpose then there's space at the women's march for you. I want to build as big a tent and as big a table as we can. And everyone who's in favor of progress and opportunity there is space. Come on in.

FISHERHow did you get involved with the march?

GREENThe first march in 2017, I was planning to come up and I got the flu. So I didn't get to make it, and I was at last year's march with Jaywalk Marching proud to be a part of that contingent organized by leaders, Jewish women of color leaders. And when someone reached out and said to me, you know, There's an open call for folks, who want to be on the board. I said, well, this might be a tremendous opportunity, because I saw the challenges and the damage that happened around the Jewish community antisemitism.

GREENAnd I was really pleased when we were announced as a board at the end of September to see the positive reception among folks in the Jewish community to realizing that there were actually attempts being made to really repair the harms that had been done and move forward in conversation and in solidarity and unity.

FISHERSo when you were offered a position on the national board did you have any reservations given that whole question about anti-Semitism? And what have you done specifically to address that since you've come onboard?

GREENAbsolutely. I mean, coming on the board there was a question, who is going to say what? about, you know, hearing that I would be joining, and so definitely there was a concern. But it felt to me like this was a moment in time where it was extremely important to remain in conversation and actually be a part of that. And so there was concern and then I agreed and said, let's do it. I would say that we are a young board. We're new. We met for the first time as a group at the end of September. We have work to do as a board to figure out who we are, what our direction is going to be and we have to do that work internally as a board. And we also have to do that work with our communities, with Jewish women, with Muslim women, with transwomen and making sure that we actually are building a table that has room for all voices.

FISHERCarol wrote us an email. She said, I protested in 2017 in my pink hat. I did it again in 2018 with my tween daughter. I get most of my information the first time through Tweeter. I now find that the marketing is not there to communicate and motivate others to come out. I didn't even know the march was happening this Saturday, but I will be there now that I know. Marissa Lang, the use of social media was somewhat revolutionary in bringing together that enormous crowd in 2017. Have peoples' approaches to protests shifted since then?

LANGI think they've taken on that model and embraced it. The Women's March was super revolutionary when it happened, because often protests would happen in one place. The Women's March said, we're going to do this everywhere. And there were hundreds across the country and they all turned out so many people, and they felt very connected because of the use of social media. Now there are marches that take on that model all the time. There were two last month. There was, you know, No War in Iran protest that brought together more than 300 cities. There was an impeachment protest that brought together several hundred cities and they all kind of follow the same model.

LANGSo that novelty has sort of faded with time. And in part because the Women's March pioneered this new way of engaging people in different places and feeling that sense of unity.

FISHERGinna Green, there was the -- I mean, the enormous success of the initial Women's March, and then we had the student led protests against gun violence, kind of the two main markers of protests at least here in Washington during the Trump administration. But other than those two there really has not been the kind of large scale protest that we saw say in the Bush administration against the Iraq war or even the Occupy Movement during the Obama administration. Why do you think that is?

GREENI think Marissa has probably nailed it in that there are so many opportunities if you will to be in the streets there have been so many reasons for us to rise up over the last few years of the Trump administration. And it is tiring. And it is hard. And for those of us who, you know, do this work professionally, you know, it's a drain for those of us who aren't professional activist. It's hard. We have lives and mouths to feed and jobs to do. And so I do think that there is competition for people's time, energy and just their own human resources. I also believe that no matter what happens in 2020 there will be the need for there to be more bodies in the street to actually get -- make the changes that we need to have. And I tell people, Rest up. You know, take your breaks if you can because we're going to need you now and beyond.

FISHERWe have an email from Missy, who echoes some of what you said. She says, I attended the first march in 2017, but did not attend the second and third because I didn't feel we needed a march just to have a march. I am going this year because it's 2020. It's time to celebrate our successes the last couple of years, but also to reenergize for a presidential election. So are you seeing any kind of a synergy between the presidential race and this march?

GREENAbsolutely. There is definitely a realization that Trump is on the agenda. And getting him out of the White House is the number one priority for Women's March and for the women in our membership. We have also identified key issues that are really important to us that has obviously come under threat in the Trump administration, reproductive justice, immigration and climate justice. These are issues and policies that the Trump administration has in our crosshairs that affect every single one of us and our communities. And we all realize that now.

FISHERMarissa Lang, looking at this Saturday's event all snow and ice aside, what can we expect in terms of crowd size, activities?

LANGSo the permit that the National Park Service just put out last week says that the crowd size expected is somewhere between 3,000 and 10,000 people. That is as you've noted much smaller than in previous years. And so I expect we'll see somewhere in that range. And weather will definitely impact that. And unlike previous years and Ginna can probably speak more to this there isn't going to be the big sort of pomp and circumstance that we've seen at previously Women's Marches. People who have attended past marches might remember a big stage. They might remember folks like Madonna on that stage, you know, calling out to the crowd or performances happening. That's not going to happen this year. It's going to be a much more traditional protest in that there is going to be a small rally. Then there's going to be a march around the White House kind of around the ellipse and then to the White House. And then at the White House they are going to be performing that feminist anthem protest song and dance that you played at the top of the show. And, you know, there's going to be a little bit of chanting and cheering and sort of the protest activity.

LANGAnd then they're going to march back to Freedom Plaza where it began. And disperse. And so it's probably going to be a few hours. It's going to be a much shorter event than we've seen in previous years.

FISHERSomeone who will be at the march is Rose. And Rose joins us on the line right now. Welcome.

ROSEThank you so much for having me on. I just wanted to call in and first say thank you to the Women's March. This is the third year that I'll be participating. And I'm part of a very cool diverse group of artists that were hired to create art for the front of the march. And it's been a wonderful process to create the art. And part of that beauty is the community days that we've had. We've had like over 70 people that have come through to paint these banners and silk screen flags. And so I think the beauty comes from, you know, this one day of march. But that we're really part of a larger movement and we're in it for the long game. And so creating those really meaningful connections before the march and following up after the march. I think it's really important.

FISHERThank you. Ginna Green, so there's not going to be a big main stage, but there will be people like Rose out there. Is this sort of shift of philosophy over the years?

GREENThank you, Rose, for being one of those people who are going to be out there. What we have done this year -- Marissa is right that Saturday will not look like previous marches. However, we have been in D.C. all week organizing a week of action. And so we've had evening panels and teach-ins about climate justice, reproductive justice and immigration. And so we've been really using this different approach this year to really bring in our folks from across the country, go deep on the issues that our membership has said are important to us and critical in this moment. And really arm folks with the skills and the tools that they'll need to go back to their communities and help us build power from the ground up.

FISHERGinna Green is a Women's March National Board Member and Chief Strategic Officer of Bend the Arc. We've also been speaking to Marissa Lang, Breaking News Reporter with The Washington Post. When we come back after a short break we'll be joined by Rebecca Lee Funk, the Founder and CEO of The Outrage on The Kojo Nnamdi Show.

FISHERWelcome back. I'm Marc Fisher from The Washington Post sitting in for Kojo Nnamdi. And we are talking about the 2020 Women's March. And joining us now is Rebecca Lee Funk. She's the Founder and CEO of The Outrage, which is what?

REBECCA LEE FUNKFirst, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. The Outrage is a hub for activism based here in Washington D.C. And we have been the official partner of the Women's March since day one. We started working with them in 2016 following the presidential election.

FISHERAnd you started as a t-shirt popup in Adams Morgan. And what have you become since then?

FUNKWell, we started actually as an online business selling activist apparel that donates back to a progressive organization with every purchase. And I was connected with one of the founders of the Women's March in the wake of the 2016 presidential election. And they had this big idea for a Women's March, which at the time had very few people signed up to march. And I said, Well, wonderful. We're based here in D.C. Let me setup a popup to help both build awareness and fundraise for this march you're planning.

FUNKAnd then, of course, five days later I got a call. It was like, Can you handle tens of thousands of people? And we did. We had over 100,000 people come through that popup in less than a week. We raised hundreds of thousands of dollars. And it also changed the course of The Outrage where we discovered that it was -- there was lot of demand for a holding physical space for activism. And so now we are a hub for activism with both retail stores and community spaces.

FISHERAnd as you've seen hills and valleys in people coming to the Women's March, has that been reflected in the success of your business and of that physical space or do they operate on separate tracks?

FUNKWell, first I'd take a step back and say I don't know that it's necessarily fair to judge the success or the relevancy of the Women's March in 2020 based on that high watermark set in 2017. I mean, that -- as you said at the beginning of the show was the largest protest in the history of the United States of America. And we are still seeing the Women's March drive tens of thousands of people our every single year in cities across not only in this country, but across the world. And at The Outrage we still every single year we rely on that as a funnel and an entry point into our hub for activism.

FISHERWe have a comment on Tweeter from the curiously named DCLayercake who says, Activism is exhausting. The Trump presidency batters the public with their constant barrage of new, outrageous, offensive, morally and ethically bankrupt actions and events appearing on the news daily. It's numbing. Are you hearing that from the people, who work with The Outrage or who did work with Outrage?

FUNKYeah, absolutely. And that's where we try to focus on helping folks advance their activism at the margin at that incremental level. So what we say when you come in our door is, whatever skill set you have, whatever time you give that's enough and we can put that to work. So if you've never voted before we'll register you to vote at checkout. If you've never contacted a rep, we can help you with that. But whatever you can do, whatever time you have to give we're there to help maximize the impact of that time.

FISHERLet's hear from Rachel in Washington. Rachel, you're on the air.

RACHELHi. Thank you so much. I'm a first time caller and I love the show and all the work that the Women's March and The Outrage has done. I was actually calling Kojo before the break asked the question if we feel that the march has been inclusive. I attended the first year in 2017 and again in 2018. And in 2018 I was a little bit disappointed. My younger sister is deaf and so we for weeks prior to the event tried to contact someone to find out if the event would accessible or interpreted. And no one ever got back to us. And we decided to go to the event anyway. And there was no one there who had any information. There were no interpreters available. So since then she hasn't been going back. She was super active, you know, politically engaged high schooler. And just felt really disappointed by that.

FISHERGinna Green, you want to?

GREENYeah.

FISHERComment.

GREENI'll apologize on Women's March behalf for not -- A, for reaching back out to you and responding. And also not having the foresight to actually have someone, who could sign and who could be able to make sure that we were an inclusive space and we were accessible to all. I think what's important to realize is that for Women's March, we're not perfect and we don't claim to be, and we take feedback and criticism seriously. There is a lot on this new board and the new direction that we want to take the organization in. We're looking forward to the challenge, and so bring all the feedback. We're taking it seriously. And there are 16 board members who are ready to roll up their sleeves with communities and make sure that we're serving everyone we can.

FISHERAnd talk a little bit about that transition. Where do you hope to take the Women's March? What would it look like post Trump or in a second Trump term?

GREENThat's a great question. For right now as I mentioned we as a new board convened for the first time in September. We have work to do to build our own relationships with each other. And we're getting through Saturday January 18th. Let's get through Women's March 2020 and then we will then be charting a course forward for exactly what we will look like what we will envision. And I think our number one priority as I've mentioned before is empowering women, building this power to take our country back from Trump and his enablers. And we're looking forward to doing that. I think that what the world looks like in 2021 -- listen, whether Trump wins or loses there's still plenty of work to do and lots of progress to be made. And all the women who signed up from 2016 to 2017 to now we need them. We're going to need everybody.

FISHERAnd obviously 2017 at the beginning of the Trump administration you were drawing women from across certainly the Democratic spectrum and independence as well perhaps Republicans, but now in the middle of a presidential campaign where people are putting their energy into their particular candidate, does that make it harder for groups such as yours that try to broaden the coalition?

GREENWe are broadening it and the now number one priority is Trump. And, you know, we recognize that there's a primary system and there's a process and that folks have their candidates and their camps and that's wonderful and great. And we will mobilize and turnout for whomever is going to be lifted up to be Trump's opposition. And that's going to be our singular focus going into November.

FISHERMarissa Lang, there's always a little bit of confusion in Washington between national marches and the local marches. And it gets a little mixed up because obviously all marches that come here depend pretty heavily on people from the region to populate the crowd. What's your sense of whether we are seeing more of a kind of decentralization of protests around the country as opposed to, you know, the big march on Washington that was at the core of many protests movements through the last decades?

LANGI think you really hit it. There is a push toward decentralization of protests. And it used to be that to really make an impact or to get, you know, The Washington Post or the local news to cover you, you had to have a lot of people in Washington D.C. And that's no longer the case. There's been a number of marches on a number of issues ranging from climate change to immigration to impeachment that have said, Instead of trying to get people to travel to either Washington D.C. or their state capital or whatever, do it where you are. Do it where you live. And we've seen protests that have targeted, you know, your local congressman's office, for example.

LANGAnd so that kind of makes the barrier of entry lower for people who don't have the resources or the time to travel elsewhere to protest, but they can still feel like they're doing something. And that's kind of what we're seeing with all of these marches that say, okay, we have 200, 300 happening around the same issue at the same time. Don't worry about coming to D.C. Just do it where you live.

GREENI think social media also plays a role in that, right? So like if you're able to harness the power of social media then you can still give the optics and the presence of wide scale interest and visibility and participation through other channels other than physically being in the same spot at the same time.

FISHERWe're going to have to leave it there. Ginna Green is a Women's March National Board Member and Chief Strategic Officer of Bend The Arc. Marissa Lang is a Breaking News Reporter with The Washington Post. And Rebecca Lee Funk is Founder and CEO of The Outrage. Thank you all for being here. When we come back after a short break, Virginia legislators are about to propose new protections for student journalists. That's coming up after this break.