KOJO NNAMDIYou're tuned in to The Kojo Nnamdi Show on WAMU 88.5. Welcome. It's not easy to get accepted into a top tier university. At the most selective schools you need the right combination of good grades, high test scores, interesting extracurriculars, essays, letters of recommendation, and more. What stress does that put on today's high school students and their parents?

KOJO NNAMDIEarlier this month federal authorities charged 50 people in a major fraud scheme where wealthy parents paid bribes in exchange for acceptance in the top schools for their children. Today we discuss how local high schools and colleges are navigating the already difficult application process and how they're dealing with the fallout over the scandal. Joining me in studio is Sue Rexford, Director of College Guidance at Charles E. Smith Jewish Day School, also known as JDS in Rockville, Maryland. Sue Rexford, thank you for joining us.

SUE REXFORDThank you. I'm delighted to be here.

NNAMDISanjay Mitchell is the Director of College and Alumni Programs at Thurgood Marshall Academy, a public charter high school in D.C.'s Anacostia neighborhood. Sanjay Mitchell, thank you for joining us.

SANJAY MITCHELLThank you. Thank you for having me.

NNAMDIBefore we get into the scandal, let's talk about basic college prep. Sanjay, tell us about the community you're working with at Thurgood Marshall. Who attends? What do students and parents most want to know about the college application process?

MITCHELLSure. So we are located in southeast Washington D.C. in the Anacostia neighborhood. We're a small high school of roughly around 370 students grades 9 through 12. Our students are highly motivated, high achieving students who are excited about planning for their future and excited about the next steps. And the two main thing that I know our families are most concerned about when it comes to the college application processes is one, can I afford it? And two, can I get in?

MITCHELLAnd more so emphasis on the first part, the Can I afford it? Because we do a very solid job of ensuring that our students are applying to the right fit schools and looking not just at a right fit in terms of your suite of academics and SAT scores within the range for the school, but is this going to be a social economic fit for you? Is this going to be a place where you can thrive as a student?

MITCHELLIs it going to be financially viable for your family for the next four years? And so when our students are thinking about that next step, definitely money plays a huge part in it. And definitely thinking about, Can I take my southeast self to this particular campus and be safe and be okay? Our students are -- they pretty much go everywhere across the country as far west as Hawaii as far north as Michigan, Maine and as far south as Florida. So we've done a really good job in terms of giving them that confidence to apply anywhere, be accepted, and feel comfortable sitting in any college seat.

NNAMDISue, how would you describe the community at Charles E. Jewish Day School and when JDS students and parents come to you for college application advice, what do they ask?

REXFORDWell, obviously, my school is a Jewish school. So we're located in Rockville, Maryland. There are approximately 900 students pre-k through 12. I think that probably most often our parents are concerned that their children are going to get into the best school that will work for them. We try very hard. I agree with Sanjay. Fit is what matters most.

REXFORDThe other thing that we try to do that we think is important is manage expectations, because the college admissions process has become so competitive that managing those expectations becomes a big part of how we work with the students and their parents. Our students are like Sanjay's. They go all over the country. Some of them will even go internationally. So we have a pretty broad field to work from in most cases.

REXFORDWe do have families where finances are a major consideration. I think one of the advantages we have in working with our students is the ability to have the time to listen and find out who the student is and what the student wants and what type of school the student wants more so than the specific school a student wants. And then we try to tailor a list of schools that will run up and down the spectrum in terms of competitiveness so that they're all going to have options at the end of the day.

NNAMDIWhat were your reactions to the college admissions scandal? Did it shock you?

REXFORDSad was my first reaction. Not shocked as much by that it happened, but shocked by the scale on which it happened. I think everyone knows that there's always going to be some people who are going to try to game the system no matter what. But I think in my naiveté, I thought it might be a small number of people or not anything that was well organized. And I think that's the piece that both shocked and saddened me, because when I look around at my colleagues locally, nationally, I see caring confident ethical people who value this profession and understand what's important about this profession, why we get up and go to work every morning, and work with the students the way we do.

REXFORDAnd to see something like this scattered all across the front page of the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wallstreet Journal, everywhere you looked it made me feel -- I don't want you to paint me with that brush.

NNAMDISanjay, you're reactions.

MITCHELLI was angry, you know, quite frankly. I agree a lot with Sue's remark in the sense that what was anger -- but angered me the most about it was really the scale. And really how there were so many different systems and check points that this system was able to get through before the student even sits into the seat. And when I think about my students, when I think about the struggles that first generation, marginalized students have through the college application process, how much hurdles and paperwork and documents and figures and numbers and questions that are asked about their legitimacy. And then we have this affluent group, who are able to sophisticatedly get through this thing in a way that no one was able to check.

MITCHELLI was really angry. I was like, How did this happen? And how did this happen to this scale? as Sue said. And what is that going to -- how is that going to feel like for my students? How are my families going to receive this? How are they going to think about a space where they already feel is not welcoming, how are they going to feel now that they realize that they can't afford to pay to play? And so it really, you know -- we did some damage control with our students. Really talked to them around, you know, what we do and let them know that it's not so much about what happened.

NNAMDIWhat was their reaction? What did they --

MITCHELLOh, they were -- The reactions stretched across the board. Our students as you probably know are very vocal.

NNAMDIYes, we've encountered them on a few occasions.

MITCHELLYes. And as such, you know, they weren't afraid to express their frustration. But there was also a sad sense of apathy where it was like, Well, you know, this is America. This is what happens. This is how, you know, that sector kind of functions. And what we tried to do is allow our students not be jaded by this process that I work for that I've encouraged them to participate in in the last nine months. And so we tried to tell them, you know, you are brilliant. You are bright. You are smart. You are capable. You're getting into these seats based on your merit, not based on anything else.

MITCHELLAnd them getting in, the way how they did, has no bearing on who you are as a student. And so try to bring it back to them and their greatness and take the emphasis and the focus so much on what's going on in the headlines.

NNAMDIHere is Mona in Rockville, Maryland. Mona, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MONAHi, Kojo. What I wanted to draw attention to was how competitive our state school has become. My husband and I both went to University of Maryland and that was about 30 years ago. But now as my daughter is applying unfortunate she -- was hoping to get into the honors programs there. And the interesting thing is that 30 years ago my husband had the same GPA, which was like above a 4.0, had the same SAT score and then she has just exceeded him with every accolade possible. At that time 30 years ago he had gotten a full scholarship. And now she didn't even get accepted into the honors program.

MONASo it's incredible the difference, that the change that's happened and how competitive these schools have become. And it just concerns me for students that are seeking something in particular and then unable to achieve, because there's so much pressure nowadays on students that they somehow put that as their self-worth, you know, as these acceptances come in. How do they -- how they see themselves in comparison to their peers suddenly has some bearing to, you know, on them as a human being, which to me I think that there's so many different paths for kids, so --

NNAMDIWell, you forced to bring my third guest into the discussion before I planned on bringing him. David Burge is the Vice President for Enrollment Management at George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia. David, how different is the process today from when Mona and her husband applied a generation ago?

DAVID BURGECertainly. So I would even say that the process will vary in a significant way from a school that you might find in the city from the country. Within 25 miles from each other you'll find a very different process as you cross institutional lines. But generally speaking and I know my counselor colleagues here might see it similar is we find this commodification of higher education, right, where we were students -- and sometimes families are seeing an acceptance as something that they own. And as the caller indicated, a measure of their self-worth.

DAVID BURGEAnd I think that's real and that's something that we deal with on a daily basis. But in actuality if you look at the breadth of higher education in the United States, you find there are really terrific options for all students focusing on, as Sanjay mentioned, fit. If you focus on fit, then I think you find that there are a variety of options for you.

DAVID BURGEAnd the truth of the matter is is that when you look at some of these institutions like the caller referenced, many of these institutions are accepting more or less the same number of students that they did 10 years ago and 20 years. And yet the number of eligible students is increasing. The number of schools to which students apply as individually is increasing. And so the competition has swirled up and the demand simply has not kept pace. There are a few examples of outliers in that system. But by and large I think nearly every institutional type needs to focus on allowing more students access to higher education at all levels.

NNAMDIMona, thank you very much for your call. We're going to have to take a short break, but when we come back we will continue this conversation on college prep. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking college prep in the wake of the recent scandal over college admissions. We're talking with David Burge, Vice President for Enrollment Management at George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia. Sue Rexford is the Director of College Guidance at Charles E. Smith Jewish Day School also known as JDS in Rockville, Maryland. And Sanjay Mitchell is the Director of College and Alumni Programs at Thurgood Marshall Academy, a public charter high school in D.C.'s Anacostia neighborhood.

NNAMDISanjay, you work with a majority black student body. For those that gain acceptance to top tier schools, there will be those who doubt them and label them as affirmative action picks. How does that affect your students?

MITCHELLGreat question, Kojo. We try very hard to encourage and empower our students to really see their acceptances as more so a testament to their abilities rather than an affirmative action admit. I would even go as far as to say that in some cases affirmative action really doesn't benefit our students as much as it's supposed to or, you know, perceived to be. But a lot of our students who get admitted into school get admitted, because they are able to do that work. They're strong students. They're capable of managing the workload. And we see their performances when they go off to college, because we have a robust alumni program that supports our students all the way through until they tell us, Don't call me anymore.

MITCHELLSo when we see our top students going into, you know, elite schools or top schools or super competitive schools we find that they're coming back saying they're feeling prepared. They're confident about their academics. They are able to figure out where to go for supports. Tutoring help, writing workshops, math lab, they're able to identify academic and dean support on campuses to kind of help them navigate through those spaces.

MITCHELLSo there are instances, I'm not going to say that our students don't feel singled out or marginalized in large predominant spaces. But I think our students are confident enough to know that, you know, they belong there. So they don't let that bother them, because there's a bigger focus at hand. And really that pushes them towards their end goal.

NNAMDISue, what's your advice to local students and parents, who are convinced that admission to any Ivy League school is the best or only pathway to success?

REXFORDWell, I have to hope that that isn't the parameter that someone comes in with. But sometimes I cringe and not so much with my students. But when you hear the phrase, I'm going to apply to an Ivy, my first response is, which of the Ivys do you like and why do you like it? Because I sort of defy the student, who falls in love with Dartmouth to tell me that he or she would be happy at Penn or Columbia. And I try to remind my students that just because a school might have a name doesn't necessarily mean it's the name that fits, who you are as a person.

REXFORDAnd that it's very important that while I want you to stretch and reach for that one particular or many particular places that you think you would like to attend I don't want you to minimize how hard you're working to get into the other schools that we have on your college list, because what I find sometimes is students will make a list of wish schools or dreams schools, places they would really love to go. And they put all their effort into those applications and then they sort of stent on the applications where they're going to be better fit, where they're going to have a greater chance of being accepted.

REXFORDSo I think the whole process revolves around not just looking at, this school is the one place for you, but this type of school is the one place for you. And that we can find you schools on a spectrum. If you tell me you like a particular school, I can find you other schools that will be a little bit easier to get to that fit that same goal.

NNAMDIDavid, what questions does the recent scandal open up for the field of college admissions?

BURGEI think it opens up a series of questions related to admissions itself. But I also think it opens up some larger questions for higher education in terms of the role that wealth and privilege play in the process. This was an extreme example of horrible behavior, but it's not the only example of behavior that we should find unacceptable in the process. And so I think the idea of asking ourselves about how we can broaden access and success to all types of institutions whether that be through the admissions process, whether that be through the process of scholarship and financial aid awarding.

BURGEBut to work -- in some cases continue to work harder to try to deconstruct that where we can, because there's two elements to this story, right? I mean, there's story number one, which is we could have a very boring conversation about checks and balances within the admissions process.

NNAMDIThat was about to my next question.

BURGEWell, then let me change -- the very exciting conversation about checks and balances. But we could also have a conversation about the circumstances that contributed to this mania that will persist when this story is knocked off the headlines. And, again, it returns to this notion of -- and I think it relates to your question to Sanjay about sort of the reason people get offers and some elements of society trying to cast doubt on the legitimacy of those offers and that's all built off of a scarcity.

BURGEAnd I've said this in my career for a number of decades, which is selectivity is not a surrogate for rigor or quality and fit needs to matter more than -- and I've heard this term used a couple of times here in this conversation, quote, top school. Top school is not a productive term for us, because it's about the top school for you, not about the perception or the name recognition.

NNAMDIOn the issue you just raised, in the case of the recent scandal, athletic coaches received bribes from parents to place their children on a list of athletic recruits to select schools. How does that process of athletic recruitment typically work? How do coaches work in conjunction with admissions officers to indicate their preference in certain student athletes?

BURGESo, again, it varies by institutional type and in the relationships that exist between an admissions operation and an athletic operation. But, generally speaking, there is a certain bit of information sharing and certification that happens in that relationship. In other words, admissions officers are not trained to understand who is good at tennis or who's good at basketball, but rather, there are professionals within the academic setting who are good at those types of things and who can contribute that information. And in this particular instance, it seems as though that relationship broke down. And it also broke down in other areas, too, because I would say the same thing is true of the cheating on the standardized tests.

BURGEI mean, admissions officers rely on the information that comes from what they believe to be trusted sources. And when those sources are corrupted, then they have to ask themselves some hard questions. And that gets to the boring conversation I referenced earlier, which is, you know, this idea -- and you've since a lot of the schools who are embroiled in this right now, you know, revamping their policies of quality control and quality assurance and doing very basic things that they weren't doing before, like just making sure that the students they thought were athletes actually took the field.

BURGEAnd I think you're going to see a point of reflection across admissions operations around the country doing this, and then also trying to anticipate what some of those other vulnerabilities might be.

NNAMDIThe scandal also raised questions about how standardized tests like the ACT and the SAT are vulnerable to cheating. So, here's Donna in Annapolis, Maryland. Donna, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DONNAHi, Kojo. Thanks for taking my call. Yeah, so, unfortunately, well, we had an incident yesterday in the Annapolis area, South River High School in Edgewater. My daughter was one of several juniors that were taking the SAT. The SAT was interrupted by what the school officials thought was a small fire in the boys locker room, which turned out to be sparks, but there was an interruption, during which time the school evacuated. The students weren't supposed to have phones on them, but some apparently did, and they were using their phones during the interruption. And this resulted in the college board null and voiding the test.

NNAMDIAnd I guess Donna wants to know how that will affect her child's chances of getting into college. David, some top schools are moving away from those standardized tests. How does that affect the admissions process, and what role do these tests play in the decisions of universities?

BURGEYou know, that's an excellent question. Thank you, Donna. The idea is -- again, returning this idea that colleges have trusted sources of information. And so the decisions that are made all the way down to the school level through proctors, or at a high light through test administrators, do ripple across the admissions operation. However, you know, I would say that, very generally -- at least in the case of George Mason University -- that would not be a negative indicator, as it relates to an admissions offer. The nullification of a test, that's -- what that does, though, is that certainly has to rattle the student. That certainly has to set the student back. And we're very sympathetic to the additional stress, I'm sure, that that caused.

BURGEYou raised a very important point about this concept of test optional. And more and more schools are moving to either, A., a test-optional stance, and adjacent to that would be that self-reported score stance, as well. And I think this is nothing but good for both students and for institutions to be really critical about what are the most important factors that matter for success at your school? Because if you analyze the success your students have enjoyed over the years, you can clearly observe within the data that you have access to those attributes and traits that are actually going to contribute to success, and not something that looks good in a publication or is easy to shorthand when talking to students and families about how great your institution is because of the average ACT or SAT score.

BURGEGeorge Mason dropped the test score requirement about a decade ago. We were one of the first in the country to do that. And we've seen -- over the course of the last ten years -- more and more students in greater percentage of our class. In fact, almost 85 percent of our incoming class come in without some sort of standardized test scores. So, there are options, Donna.

NNAMDIWe got to go to break in about 45 seconds, Sanjay, but before you worked in college counseling at Thurgood Marshall, you were an admissions officer at CUNY, the City University of New York. What kinds of qualities did you look for in applicants?

MITCHELLWell, just to make an edit, it was SUNY, State University of...

NNAMDIState University.

MITCHELLYeah, that's my alma mater, so I think anyone who's hearing will probably kill me for that (laugh), for not making that edit. But the qualities that we really looked for were students who were able to fit in into our community and be successful. The good thing about SUNY Albany was that we looked at all types of students. So, we looked at students who were high-achieving, who could get into a Frederick Douglass Scholars Program, which was an honors program. And we looked at students who might have struggled a little bit in high school, but have the potential to do well, if given certain resources in college. And those are students who participated in our Educational Opportunities Program, our EOP program. So, we took everybody.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. When we come back, we will continue this conversation. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation about college prep with Sanjay Mitchell, director of college and alumni programs at Thurgood Marshall Academy, a public charter high school in DC's Anacostia neighborhood. David Burge is the vice president for enrollment management at George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia. Sue Rexford is the director of college guidance at Charles E. Smith Jewish Day School, also known as JDS, in Rockville, Maryland.

NNAMDISue, you and David are both affiliated with the National Association for College Admission Counseling. David was recently the organization's president. Sue, you led the regional chapter. The association's mission is to provide knowledge, networking and ethical standards for college admission professions. Is the recent scandal indicative of a broken system, or is it an extreme exception made popular only because of the celebrities involved?

REXFORDVery good question. We all have to hope that it is just the star power that put this on the front page, and that the scandal does not go much further than it has already gone. I feel that it may go further, but I think one of the things -- and David and I would -- and Sanjay, as well -- would all agree with this. One of the reasons that we belong to associations like NACAC is the understanding is that we behave in ethical manner, and that we have a code by which we work and by which we advise students and by which we expect students to also live.

REXFORDThe nice thing about what we do is we are a mix of secondary and postsecondary institutions. So, it's an opportunity for us to be friends on both sides of the desk. And I think that's one of the things that helps contribute to making sure that we all stay on the same page and that we're all working in the best interest of students. So, when we see something like the recent scandal, I think one of the first things I saw posted was that none of the people involved were members of our association. Obviously, institutions were, but, again, I don't think you can hold an institution, as a whole, responsible for what an individual within that institution may do if that person goes rogue.

REXFORDI agree with something that David said about the scandal, in that it's going to be an opportunity for institutions to reassess how they are keeping track and how they're monitoring the entire process.

NNAMDII'm glad you said that, David, because -- I'm glad you said that, Sue, because, David, moving forward, what kinds of safeguards should we consider to keep college applications fair and ethical?

BURGEThere are a lot of enhancements that individual offices could consider as part of this. You know, I would caution anyone, though, not to look for those relatively minor changes that could happen in an admissions process, but really ask some more of the fundamental questions about: what are we doing to drive access to excellence across higher education? And that also translates into things that are kind of outside of the scope of this story.

BURGEFor example, the millions of students in this country who are at community colleges and making sure that we are providing appropriate pathways for those students to have the same type of access to this excellence. So, there's some basic questions that could happen as it relates to the number of students that an institution would welcome to its campus that should be asked. If they're unwilling to do that and you're focusing on the institutional admissions process itself, there are some very basic safeguards to put in place that would include, you know, the multiple reads of any one given file in order to make admissions decision.

BURGEThere's been a lot of good work done lately to make sure that we are making sure that we are aware of cultural bias and trying to put that out of play as a good example of that. I think we could look at the role that athletics play within the admissions process, and ask ourselves some hard questions about just how much value we would put on that as part of any admissions decision.

NNAMDIHold that thought for a second, because -- in terms of the athletics, here's Charles in Gaithersburg. Charles, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

CHARLESThank you very much, Kojo. Love your show. I was listening, and I didn't think I had anything to add, and you started to get into the athletics part about it. And I wanted to say that I don't think that the system is broken, because just gone through it, and my son got into an Ivy. And he did so partly because of his athletic ability. So, he's going to be starting this fall. But in going through the process, I mean, we, you know, spent a lot of time, of course, with his school and with the school that we were visiting and trying to get him in. And the process was rigorous in terms of what you had to get done, in terms of what you had to accomplish. And the coaches had to be interested in you in the beginning.

CHARLESBut there are also -- and I was trying to say this to your colleague before I got on the phone -- that there are a lot of kids that we saw, that we knew that were able to get offers, not necessarily to the Ivies, but to some schools, because of the coaches' relationships with their trainer or their high school coach. You know, not necessarily because of their ability, and they were able to get into these schools, as well. So, I mean, if you're going to look at the scandal, it's a wider scandal than just a few people getting their kids in through paying...

NNAMDI(overlapping) Sanjay, care to comment on that?

MITCHELLWell, congratulations to your son on his accomplishments. I agree with you, you know. It is a very rigorous process, particularly for a student who is being recruited as an athlete. There's, of course, the idea that the knowledge and the belief that students are not just athletes. They're also scholars. So, if they're getting into these institutions, not only are they able to perform in their particular sport, but also able to perform in the classrooms, as well.

MITCHELLAnd, yeah, the scandal definitely did highlight some nuances that happen within our profession, but I would say that, for the most part, a lot of our colleagues are really doing this work right and are doing it correct. I don't think that we should ever question what really happens en masse because of the actions of a few -- as Sue mentioned -- rogue individuals. But it doesn't mean that the institutions or practice should not be questioned or should not be held accountable for some loopholes and gaps that are clearly evident that folks are able to get through.

MITCHELLIf a system has the ability to be rigged, then it can't be equitable. It can't be fair. It can't be any of those particular things. So, we really have to assess whether or not it is really benefitting our students to the best ability, and even our athletes and our vulnerable populations, to ensure that everyone is really being treated equitably in this process.

NNAMDIWe got a Tweet from Sarah: what tools do you recommend for helping a student decide which university is the right fit for them? Sue, the scandal highlighted all the illegal ways parents try to get their kids into college, but what about the legal ways? College prep is now an entire industry, with test prep classes, college coaching sessions and more. What does the industry look like in the Washington region?

REXFORDI would say it looks very competitive. There are a lot of resources available to students, but I think at the end of the day, if a family would put some time and energy into just sitting back and thinking a little bit about what would make a student happen in terms of where they're going to spend four year of their lives. I always tell my students to think about the fact that this is going to be your home, in many ways, for the next four years. And what is it that you want? How far away from here do you want to be? What type of campus? And we are fortunate in this area. We have many, many wonderful colleges and universities.

REXFORDI tell my students to start the process by visiting a broad sampling of the schools in this area, not for maybe attending that particular school, but for looking at that type of school, to see a big school, a small school, a suburban school, an urban school, whatever. And then start to think, what do I want? We have a survey that we give our students before we ever meet with them. And we ask them, what is it they like? What do they want to do in college? What do they want to study, if they know? And if they don't, that's fine. But all of the intangibles, not just the test scores and the grade point average, but all of the pieces that make you happy, where you're going to enjoy being.

REXFORDAnd I think if you work from that point, that the students and families will evolve into what type of school is going to work for them. And then you can actually work with the family. There is a huge amount of competition, as we all know. It's not going away. Colleges seem to be getting more and more competitive every year, but I do feel that if students would just sort of sit back and close their eyes and picture themselves on just any given day on a college campus, what would that campus look like? What would it feel like? What would they be doing? Who would they want to be associating with? And then try to find something that matches that.

NNAMDILarry in Northern Virginia, I'm sorry we can't get you on the air, Larry, because we're running out of time. But Larry says: the population of the US is 50 percent larger than it was 30 years ago, and more people are applying to college. The solutions is an economic one. Can the supply meet the demand? I'm afraid we can't answer that question at this point, but a smaller question: Sanjay, what advice do you have for juniors gearing up for the application season later this year?

MITCHELLYes. So, for my juniors and for juniors all across who are hearing me (laugh), make sure that your testing is -- you have at least sat for the SAT or the ACT once by now, or at least before the end of your junior year. Just make sure that you have a benchmark as to figure out where it is that you need to work on. Are the scores within the range for the schools that you're interested in? Do you need to work some time in the summer to kind of increase those scores? Are you comfortable?

MITCHELLWhat are you doing? How are you utilizing your summers? Are you involved in any summer enrichment programs, maybe on a local campus or on a campus away? Are you getting your community service hours done? Are you doing extracurricular activities? All of those particular things that can make you a well-rounded student. Coupled with that, gut check, right? Really be realistic and be, you know, real about what it is that you want and who you are as a student.

MITCHELLIt is great, as Sue mentioned, to envision yourself in a particular campus, but you have to figure out what type of student were you the last four years? And how are you going to be that student the next four years? Are you the student who enjoys competition, who thrives in an environment where you have to work hard and, you know, be that kind of A superstar student? Or are you the student who, you know, I just woke up today, took a test, and voila, I got an A. (laugh)

MITCHELLYou know, so, figure out who you are as an individual, what moves you, what motivates you. Get those things done, your testing, your community service, the things that will shine about your character outside of the numbers, and gather those together as you start to close out your junior year. And know what your GPA is. It's important to know what numbers you're working with, too.

NNAMDISanjay Mitchell is the director of college and alumni programs at Thurgood Marshall Academy. Sanjay, thank you so much for joining us.

MITCHELLThank you.

NNAMDISue Rexford is the director of college guidance at Charles E. Smith Jewish Day School. Sue, thank you for joining us.

REXFORDThank you.

NNAMDIAnd David Burge is the vice president for enrollment management at George Mason University. David, thank you for joining us.

BURGEIt's my pleasure. Thank you, sir.

NNAMDIToday's conversation on college admissions was produced by Ruth Tam. We'll be compiling our guests expert advice on our website. Visit kojoshow.org. It's equal payday next Tuesday, and we'd like to hear your stories about how your gender has influenced how you're paid in the DC region. Go to kojoshow.org/blog to take our survey. On tomorrow's Politics Hour, DC Mayor Muriel Bowser joins resident analyst Tom Sherwood and me in studio. We take a deep dive into her budget and figure out what her proposals mean for Washingtonians. It all starts tomorrow at noon. Until then, thank you for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.