KOJO NNAMDIWelcome back. For the past few weeks, we've taken a deep dive into arts and gentrification. And now, a new report on gentrification nationwide finds that Washington, DC has the highest percentage of gentrified neighborhoods in the U.S. Today, we explore what exactly that means, and what it means for the Washington region as a whole. Joining me in studio is Jesse Van Tol. He is the CEO of the National Community Reinvestment Coalition. Jesse, thank you for joining us. Good to see you again.

JESSE VAN TOLYeah, good to see you.

NNAMDIAlso with us is Jason Richardson. He is director of research and evaluation with the National Community Reinvestment Coalition. Jason, thank you for joining us.

JASON RICHARDSONThank you.

NNAMDIJesse, earlier this month, your organization published the report, Shifting Neighborhoods: Gentrification and Cultural Displacement in American Cities. What did you learn about gentrification from that study?

TOLWell, you know, what we found -- we looked nationwide at over 900 cities. What we found was there were 1,000 neighborhoods that were gentrified or gentrifying, which means that they went from being in the, you know, sort of lower -- in terms of income, in terms of home values -- to rapidly appreciating in income, home values and college attainment. And so, of those 1,000 places, we did find that not only did you have an increase in incomes, an increase in home values, you saw displacement. This may not be news to anybody who lives in Washington, DC.

TOLAnd I lived in Petworth for ten years. I saw it firsthand. We saw a significant amount of displacement in Washington, DC, over 20,000 African Americans who left the city as a result of gentrification.

NNAMDIJason, according to your study, Washington, DC has the distinction of having the highest percentage of gentrified neighborhoods. You say that 40 percent of the neighborhoods in the District are gentrified. What exactly does that mean?

RICHARDSONWell, 40 percent of those that we found to be eligible for gentrification -- which means of the neighborhoods that were in the lower end in terms of home values and incomes, we looked at the percentage of those neighborhoods that saw very sharp increases in whole value income and college attainment. Forty percent of the neighborhoods in DC that were in that lower, you know, strata experienced gentrification. That 40 percent puts DC well ahead of the number two city of San Diego at 29 percent in terms of how many of the neighborhoods actually gentrified. It was quite striking, just the massive gap in the number that we saw in DC.

NNAMDILet's back up and define gentrification and cultural displacement. Jesse Van Tol, what do you mean by those phrases?

TOLWell, you know, let me first note that I think, you know, gentrification is a complicated term. For many, it evokes disgust. It means displacement for many people. You know, the reason we wanted to look at this is we're an organization that is interested in developing, from a community perspective, low and moderate income places. And I think in many places, policymakers are struggling with this notion of how do we invest in a place, but also invest in the people? How do we invest in a place without, you know, sort of displacing people?

TOLAnd so we wanted to tease apart two distinct phenomena. One is neighborhood improvement and what you see -- rising income levels, rising home values, perhaps people moving there who are wealthier and better off --and displacement itself. And we do notice in many places, first of all, no gentrification occurring, whatsoever. So, there are many low-income neighborhoods across the country in which investment is clearly not happening. Home values are not going up. People are not getting wealthier, and wealthier people are not moving to those neighborhoods. And so that suggests a lack of investment.

TOLYou know, one of our members said to us, you know, we'd love to get some gentrification in our neighborhood, because, you know, it's an economically distressed place. So, we looked at gentrification in two distinct parts. One is the extent and level to which investment is happening, people are moving to a neighborhood, home values are, you know, going up. Those are the, you know, sort of classic definitions of gentrification and displacement, which I think is often considered to be synonymous with gentrification. And that's the way most people understood the term. And so those are the two distinct factors that we looked at.

TOLI would say that for many people, gentrification is displacement. It means displacement. It inevitably leads to displacement. We wanted to tease that apart, because clearly, it's possible to achieve some level of integration, some level of community economic development without displacing people. And this study is kind of a first step in understanding how that might occur.

NNAMDIYou wanted to add something?

RICHARDSONNo, not really. He covered it very well. The idea that there are two distinct phases to it is kind of a key point that we took away from this, where we were able to observe many neighborhoods that experienced no investment, many that did experience investment, but don't show signs of displacement. And many cities in the country, you know, show that trend. DC stuck out really because of the level of gentrification, and then the massive level of displacement that we also observed here.

NNAMDIWe talk about the changes happening in our region as though this rapid development is somehow an inevitable process. Cities and urban areas grow, but some suggest that what we're seeing is the result of policies. Can you explain that?

TOLWell, yeah. I think that, you know, you certainly see in DC the result both of policy and the result of the local economy. So, you know, simply put, when you have people moving into a neighborhood, if there's not more production of housing and more production of affordable housing, almost by definition, you're going to get displacement. So, if you have wealthier people moving in and there's no more housing available, they will out-price people living in the neighborhood, and that will result in displacement.

TOLSo, affordable housing policy has a significant impact on gentrification and displacement, and so, too, does affordable homeownership policy. If people living in a neighborhood are homeowners, they're much more likely to benefit from gentrification, as housing values go up. What it means is that their household wealth is going up in a significant way. And so we do see as a trend in neighborhoods where you have a relatively high rate of homeownership to begin with, that people can benefit from gentrification. Unfortunately, that's not the reality in a great number of inner-city neighborhoods and a great number of low-income neighborhoods.

TOLWe see, more commonly, the majority of people are renters. Rents go up very rapidly, and that's when you get displacement. So, policies around rental affordability, around homeownership affordability can have a dramatic impact on this. But so, too, does the local economy. I think, you know, most people know that during the Great Recession, Washington, DC, the DC area, the economy stayed relatively strong. And so you saw people coming to the area, staying in the area. You know, I think DC's population has grown significantly. And any time you see a lag between housing supply and demand for housing, you're going to see rents go up and rise.

NNAMDIHere now is Parissa, who self-identifies as director of Empower DC. Parissa, you're on the air. Go ahead, please

PARISSAHi, Kojo. Thanks for taking my call. And I want to thank your guests for the report. It said much of what we all know, right, but sometimes when the residents are impacted by displacement or calling out and saying, these policies are displacing us, they're not paid attention to. They're not listened to. And it's good to have the report with this national perspective also calling attention to it.

PARISSAI appreciate your guests mentioning the role of government policy and the fact that there is an alternate method of development, which would be community economic development, where the centerpiece is: how do we lift people out of poverty? How do we put the tools in people's hands to have self determination and be able to design their communities? And we see a complete absence of that here in the city.

PARISSAYou know, we work in Ivy City, we work in Barry Farm, and those communities have fought very hard to have their own vision for redevelopment, revitalization, that benefits the residents. And, unfortunately, mayor on down, we're being met with that blunt opposition that what they want is more gentrification. What they want is more of the same type of development that we've seen.

NNAMDIWell, since you're with Empower DC, and therefore you know the city very well, you know that Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton, with the mayor's support, is asking the federal government to give DC the federally owned property on which RFK Stadium now sits. How would that kind of public land, in your view, be used so that there is development, but that it doesn't drive people out of that neighborhood?

PARISSAWell, it has to start with the community. So, you have to do an assessment of who's at risk of displacement and how do we shore up, you know, whatever housing that is at risk. One thing I thought was remarkable about the 11th Street Bridge Project is that they actually did that analysis and said: this is going to increase gentrification and displacement, and we're going to put these mitigation efforts in place. However, what they did not do is say, let's put the bridge project on hold. Let's first stabilize the housing and make these investments, and then maybe revisit the bridge project.

PARISSASo, it shows you that it's always like an afterthought, this equitable development that people are now, it's a big buzzword. We have to do those things first. So, how -- you know, what are we doing with public housing, for instance? We're ignoring this massive crisis that we have before us, and we're not creating new housing that serves that same population of people. So, I would look at RFK or any public land, especially, as how do we use this as a model for community economic development. Deeply affordable housing, housing where low-income people who have historically been discriminated against get equity and have some ownership stake, small business incubation, quality early childhood. All these things that we talk about, how would they be incorporated into that development?

NNAMDIWell, Parissa, thank you very much for your call. We've got to take a short break, but when we come back, we will be continuing this conversation on gentrification, not only in the District of Columbia, but in parts of Maryland and Virginia. We're talking with Jesse Van Tol. He is the CEO of the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, and Jason Richardson, director of research and evaluation with the National Community Reinvestment Coalition. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking about a recent report showing how Washington, DC became the most gentrified city in the U.S. We're talking with Jesse Van Tol. He is the CEO of the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, which did that study. And Jason Richardson is the director of research and evaluation with the Coalition. Jason, Sabiyha Prince who works with the organization Empower DC wrote in the study, quote, "becoming estranged from one's home place is a process that unfolds gradually." What does that process look like here in Washington, and is there anything that can be done to stop a slow gentrification once the process was started?

RICHARDSONWell, I'll answer the first part of that question first, I think. And what we find is there is a definite process to gentrification. You see, over decades of time, incomes and home values declining in a neighborhood. And then there's a period where you see concentration of low-income families and poverty in those areas. And then you go into a period where those people begin to be cleared out, it looks like. And this can take the form of, you know, renewal, or the destruction of public housing, or any number of other processes.

RICHARDSONAnd then there's a gap. There's usually a period of time where the population has declined somewhat, but the incomes are still pretty low. And then you see an influx of new residents coming in. And that process unfolds sometimes over decades of time, or it can happen very quickly. And I think we've seen it a little quicker in DC than elsewhere. But as to what you do, I'm going to defer to...

NNAMDI(overlapping) Well, seeing it quicker in DC, Jesse, why was gentrification so intense in Washington over the past two decades? You just mentioned the population rising. We've gone to over 700,000 for the first time in more than two decades.

TOLWell, I think, you know, there's a few things going on. So, one, understanding the phenomenon in more historical perspective, you know, you see this wave of white flight in suburbanization in the '50s and the '60s. Clearly, you know, across the country, you're seeing a return to cities, so you can place it in a broader context. But DC, you know, DC's economy remained relatively strong during the Great Recession. I think a lot of young people moved here and stayed. So, we certainly see population growing and those kinds of trends.

TOLI think also, you know, coming back to the policy point, you know, this is part of policy, going back to, you know, Mary Anthony Williams, an intentional effort to boost property taxes to get more people to move into the city to buy homes, to get wealthier people to move into the city. And you can understand that in terms of, you know, your question about RFK. You know, people know city, you know, DC has -- a large percentage of the land is owned by the federal government, owned by entities that pay no taxes. And so there's sort of a structural issue in terms of how you just pay for, you know, basic city services and improvements.

TOLSo, you can understand why, you know, it's been part of various mayors' efforts to get property taxes up to be able to pay for services. But, you know, I think Parissa really hit the nail on the head. What we're for is community economic development. We're not here to argue that low-income neighborhoods that have been disinvested should remain that way, should remain poor, should remain disinvested, should remain, you know, sort of not experiencing basic city services...

NNAMDI(laugh) Yeah, because you quoted earlier an NCRC member who lives in an impoverished neighborhood in Baltimore, who says, when can we get some of that gentrification in my community? This is something that we have heard when we discussed that issue, that is people wanting to see more development in their neighborhoods.

TOLThat's right, and I think, you know, for many poor people living in low-income neighborhoods, they would love to see improvements to their neighborhood. They would love to see grocery stores moving in and access to those kinds of amenities. The point is, really, how do you invest in a place while also investing in people? And I want to be clear. We're for integrated neighborhoods when it comes to race and class. That was part of the vision of the Civil Rights Movement, right, going back to Dr. Martin Luther King, thinking about the notion that separate may always be unequal. And so how do we have integrated neighborhoods, where everybody has access to good schools, quality jobs and basic services?

TOLNow, we did not study, in this report, you know, sort of helping lower income people move into neighborhoods of opportunity, move into wealthier areas. And I would link the two things in the following sense. I think there has been resistance to the production of affordable housing in wealthier neighborhoods and places like Northwest DC. You know, a certain level of NIMBYism that happens that has put gentrification pressures in other parts of the city. Any time you have a mismatch between production of new housing, production of affordable housing, you're going to end up with rising prices.

TOLAnd I do think that you see, you know, a reverse phenomenon of a lack of economic mobility and inability of people who are of lower incomes to move into neighborhoods of opportunity and gain access to good education, quality jobs and the like.

NNAMDIHere's James in Arlington, Virginia. James, your turn.

JAMESThanks for taking my call. I just wanted to comment about one of the benefits that I see as an architect of gentrification, and that is that the developers can afford to come in and get the lead out of the older homes and the toxic lead in the plumbing out or (unintelligible) the homeowners and renters. And I just wanted to leave that comment and see if the reinvestment coalition folks (unintelligible)...

NNAMDIWell, you're breaking up, but I'll see if I can get a response to -- he's talking about what he sees as the benefits of gentrification, because developers come and clean out toxic lead that are placed in homes and low-income neighborhoods and the like.

TOLYeah, you know, I think we can say you shouldn't have to rely on gentrification and displacement to do those things. I think many people probably know that, you know, poor neighborhoods have been, you know, really targeted for the placement of industrial zones, of chemical waste sites. And so I think there's a link here between economic justice and environmental justice.

TOLAnd so that said, I do think that when you look at a poor neighborhood that has environmental issues, clearly, you want to invest and clean that up. And we're distinguishing here between community economic development in which the development that occurs, occurs equitably. It occurs with not just investment in the place and in the built infrastructure, but also an investment in the people who live there. Right? So, that as we're raising home values as the neighborhood is improving, the people are also getting an opportunity to do well. And I don't think that -- you know, clearly, that doesn't happen, and certainly has not happened here in DC, in most cases.

NNAMDIWe got a Tweet from Jason, who writes, as someone undeniably complicit in gentrification in the District, I feel the need to wonder how we, as upper-middle-class folks, can feel comfortable buying in the city. I've always regarded gentrification as a means of desegregation, but I want to know what direct ways we, me, can take to keep people from being economically evicted from their homes. I am concerned, and want to help.

TOLSo, I think, you know, many middle class white people have sort of this attitude of, you know, I don't want to be a gentrifier, or am I a gentrifier. And, you know, I think it's an appropriate question. I would really define gentrification as being, though, a strategic and intentional process that happens at the level of developers and city policy, not necessarily an individual phenomenon. Though, of course, the driving force is people moving into communities.

TOLSo, I don't think -- you know, I think that if you're middle class, if you're a white person, the thing to think about is, you know, how can you promote the production of affordable housing in your neighborhood? How can you be what sometimes is called a YIMBY, a yes in my backyard type of person? Not a NIMBY, someone who's really opposed to that kind of development in your neighborhood because, again, I do think there's a direct connection...

NNAMDIWe recently had a conversation featuring NIMBYs and YIMBYs sitting around the same table. But here is Charles in Washington, DC. Charles, your turn.

CHARLESYes, I just would like for the guests to define a deceptive and, what I would call, specious term, affordable housing. I live in a neighborhood where affordable housing is considered $400,000. They're building new affordable housing condominiums there. It seems to have a sliding scale, and that perpetuates higher prices when the bottom, or so-called bottom, is 400,000. Can you talk how that's used by politicians to give the appearance of helping those, when really, they're not? Thank you.

NNAMDIIt's a sliding scale.

RICHARDSONYeah, Charles, thanks. That's a great comment. So, DC is a kind of good case in point, where generally speaking, when somebody says affordable housing, they're using a HUD definition that means it's affordable to somebody who's making 80 percent of area median income. Now, DC area median income is somewhere around $110,000 right now. So, you're talking about, you know, it's affordable to somebody making $85,000. Meanwhile, in Washington, DC your median black income is $40,000. So, I think the question is a great one. How do you define affordable housing, and who is it affordable for?

NNAMDIHere now is Michael in Alexandria, Virginia. Michael, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MICHAELSo, I'm calling -- I moved to DC about seven years ago, and I moved to the Logan Circle area. And when I moved into my apartment, it was affordable (laugh). And the area -- I don't know if you guys know about that whole area that they just, like, rebuilt, but basically, you know, it went from -- I paid for a two-bedroom apartment, 1,850 a month, for a two-bedroom, one-bath. And then when I finally moved out two years ago, every apartment in the area was, you know, $2,100 for a studio or...

NNAMDI(overlapping) And, like I said Michael, we're running out of time. The point Michael is making that he can't afford to live there anymore. He also is looking to buy a house with his girlfriend, and finding it unaffordable. What do you say to somebody like Michael?

TOLWell, listen, I think that's the challenge here. And, again, what we found in the study is a lot of gentrification is concentrated in some of the biggest and growing cities. And what that means, really, is that investment is concentrated in those places, and opportunity is concentrated in those places. And the challenge there is, along the way, you have displacement. Not everybody can benefit from it...

NNAMDI(overlapping) And we haven't even gotten to banking and lending practices, but I'm afraid that's all the time we have right now. Jesse Van Tol is CEO of the National Community Reinvestment Coalition. Thank you for joining us.

TOLThank you.

NNAMDIJason Richardson is director of research and evaluation the Coalition. Jason, thank you for joining us.

RICHARDSONThank you.

NNAMDIToday's conversation on gentrification was produced by Mark Gunnery. Our interview with the Japanese Ambassador was produced by Ruth Tam. You can find a list of where to see cherry blossoms without running into crowds at our website, kojoshow.org, as well as a list of festival events we're most looking forward to. Coming up tomorrow, March Madness has just begun, and while we cheer on our favorite teams, it's also a time to consider the careers of student athletes who carry the hopes of their schools on their shoulders. Should student athletes be paid? We'll hear from local students and sports commentators. That all starts tomorrow, at noon. Until then, thank you for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.