KOJO NNAMDIIf you open an American History textbook, you may find the story of the civil rights movement simplified to a collection of leaders and monuments like Brown v. Board of Education and Martin Luther King, Junior's "I Have A Dream" speech. But some local educators are trying to expand the way we teach the civil rights movement by focusing on its grassroots history, or by connecting it to today's social justice movement. Joining me to talk about their experiences teaching and learning about the civil rights movement is Barrie Moorman. Barrie Moorman is a college and alumni success counselor at E.L. Haynes Public Charter School, and organizer of the school's annual civil rights tour of the South. Barrie Moorman, thank you for joining us.

BARRIE MOORMANThank you so much.

NNAMDIAlso with us in studio is Kalkidan Haile. She's a senior at E.L. Haynes Public Charter School who has attended the civil rights tour for the past two years. Kalkidan, thank you for joining us.

KALKIDAN HAILEThank you for having me.

NNAMDIAlso with us is Judy Richardson. She was the series associate producer and education director of the PBS series "Eyes on the Prize." She was a Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee staff member during the '60s, and she was one of the people who acted as a mentor and guide to me when I first came to Washington, and taught me many of the things that you'll hear her talking about today. Judy, good to see you again.

JUDY RICHARDSONOh, it's great to see you, Kojo. Thank you.

NNAMDIHow have the civil rights movement and Dr. Martin Luther King, Junior's legacy been taught in schools, and what's been missing from that teaching, from that discussion?

RICHARDSONYes. I think the main part is that as amazing as Dr. King was, he was not the only leader. And so what happens is if you focus only on Dr. King and how great he was -- and there's no doubt about that -- then you lose the fact that you need to see yourself in this movement. And so you see an Ella Baker and an Amzie Moore and a Mrs. Amelia Boynton. You see all these amazing local leaders who are there before we young people and SNCC ever get there. They're the ones who are guiding us, who are grounding us, who are showing us the way.

RICHARDSONAnd if you do not know that you were the ones who did the movement, your neighbors and your clergy and your, you know, your fellow students and stuff, then you don't know you can do it again. And then they got you beat. So, for me it is -- you've got to see yourself in this movement. And I know I was the first paid employee when we were beginning this 14-hour "Eyes on the Prize" series, right. And when I first started in 1979, everything was about Dr. King and only Dr. King. So, when he goes into Birmingham, you don't see Reverend Shuttlesworth. You only see Dr. King.

RICHARDSONAnd so one of the things that "Eyes on the Prize" did, for example, is to change the narrative. You see yourself in this movement as, not just the troops, but the leaders. And that's young people, that's women, that's all of us. And the other thing I find, and that's, you know, through the -- since 1990, when I first started talking to teachers, what they also talk about is nonviolence, as if it's this passive kind of thing. And so if young people are looking at the sit-ins, they kind of don't want to really look at a whole lot of it, because, you know, you don't want to see a lot of folks just getting beat over the head. And particularly for young black guys, they don't want to see women just being left defenseless and black men are, you know, sitting there watching ketchup being poured over them, right.

RICHARDSONSo, you need to understand that there was also self-defense in the movement. And so there are a number of narratives that I think we need to change, but particularly it is we were the ones who did the movement.

NNAMDIHow have teachers, or how are teachers changing their approach to teaching the civil rights movement?

RICHARDSONWell, I think slowly but surely, you know, it's hard, because there's no national kind of input on this. But you have amazing organizations like the national organization Teaching for Change, right here in DC. This is an education project. We -- which is we being the SNCC Legacy Project -- you know, since all of us in SNCC were, you know, 18, 19 years old at that point, we're still more or less moving and, you now, walking and talking a little bit.

RICHARDSONAnd so we started -- back in 2010 -- the SNCC Legacy Project. And together with Duke University and Teaching for Change and Civil Rights Movement Vet Project, we have a wonderful website which is SNCCdigital.org. I got to get that in. And a lot of that has to do with showing all of the regular people who are doing that. And that's what we based our NEH three-week teacher session on this past summer. So, it's getting to teachers and letting them know what's available, because there really are resources that will help you change that narrative, to make it more accurate. You've just got to know where it is.

NNAMDII was saying earlier that when I first came to town and I listened to people like you and Charlie Cobb and Courtland Cox and Ivanhoe Donaldson and Jennifer Lawson talk about your experiences working with SNCC in the South, you never talked about big-name leaders that I heard about or read about. You talked about people that I had never heard about, people who had to live there the rest of their lives, after this was all over. Those were the people you guys seemed to admire, and it seemed also that it changed the trajectory of all of your lives, being associated with those people in that situation.

RICHARDSONYes, that's absolutely true. I mean, the person who was most instrumental was Jim Forman, who was our executive secretary, and somebody like Ella Baker who was this legendary strategist and organizer...

NNAMDI(overlapping) I had never heard of.

RICHARDSONExactly, that's it -- organizer from the NAACP director branches, but who is the one who really imbues with us the idea that we're talking about grassroots leadership, and that has to be bottom-up leadership. It's not top-down. That's why she leaves the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, because that's what they believe in, you know. And so she sees when we come out of the sit-ins, these are young people. They are able to be formed, and so she is our main mentor. So, it's all of those folks.

RICHARDSONWhen people say, well, how come you weren't afraid, it's because I'm looking at folks who have been doing this for 20 years before I ever got there. And they're still there, and they're still organizing, and they never gave up.

NNAMDIBarrie Moorman, you started the civil rights trip for high school students at E.L. Haynes DC Public Charter School. That tours the South. What sites do you visit, and who gets to go?

MOORMANSo, we have kind of changed our itinerary year to year, but typically start out in Greensboro, and begin at the Civil Rights Museum that's at the site of the Woolworth's lunch counter, where the sit-ins began. From there, we travel on to Atlanta, where we visit different sites connected with Dr. King's legacy, and also have the chance to tour some HBCUs there and share with students both the history of HBCUs, as well as their present opportunities. We then travel onto Montgomery. We're visiting different churches there, meeting with people who were involved in the bus boycotts, learning more about the Freedom Rides and Rosa Parks' legacy.

MOORMANAnd then we travel on to Selma, where every year that we've gone, we've spent the day with a woman named Joanne Bland, who was a teenager at the time of the march over the Edmund Pettus Bridge. And so she's kind of taking us through the city, sharing both the history of Bloody Sunday and the struggle for voting rights, as well as interpreting present day Selma for us. And then travel on to Birmingham, where we visit the 16th Street Baptist Church and Kelly Ingram Park. And throughout in each of the cities, we also make an effort to meet with present-day organizers who are doing civil rights work around a variety of issues today and are really building on the legacy of the movement.

NNAMDIHow and when did this annual trip begin, and how has it changed since you first started?

MOORMANSo, the trip started in 2013. E.L. Haynes is still a relatively young high school. We've graduated four classes so far, and so our high school opened in 2011. And I had personally attended a trip like this that Julian Bond led some years before, and had always kind of looked for the opportunity to be able to do something like this with students, because that trip had such a profound impact on me. So, our second year of the high school, I was teaching a U.S. History class and felt like this would be a great hands-on learning opportunity for students. Was lucky to have a principal who said, if you can make it happen, that sounds great. (laugh)

MOORMANAnd so, since then, the trip has really grown in numbers. The first year, we had about 15 students who went, and we partnered with a high school in Montgomery County that year. After that first year, demand for the trip among our students really increased. And a lot of the students who went on the trip had a strong desire to return and serve as student leaders, so that they could shape the itinerary. So, we've had more of our students who have been able to go or a second time, to be able to shape the experience for their peers.

MOORMANAnd so I would say the trip has expanded in size, also interest among teachers. You know, teachers are always asking, how do I chaperone? Even parents are, like, when are you going to do a trip for us? We want to come, too. But I think that the excitement around it and the way that it's become a centerpiece of our school community and an important part of our larger work around social justice and race and equity has really expanded over the years as we look to this being the seventh year that our students will have the chance to go.

NNAMDIKalkidan Haile, you've attended the E.L. Haynes civil rights trip for the past two years. What did you know about the civil rights movement going into the trip, and why did you decide to apply and go?

HAILEWell, when I began learning about civil rights movement, I began with three teachers, specifically. I learned with my world history teacher, Mr. Cowlicks, one of our teachers from our world literature class, Ms. Rucker and Mr. Miranda. So, they had like a joint class, which they taught us all these issues about Haitian Revolution, apartheid in South Africa, and civil rights movement. And so, when we started learning off, it was only like tidbits of, like, learning the historical and, like, the textbook version of civil rights movement.

HAILEAnd so, after that, I got really inspired in learning about, like, Black Lives Matter. And then the next year, my sophomore year, I was in US History, and Mr. Cole would teach us about civil rights and, like, also in the textbook form. But then Ms. Moorman gave me the idea that I should apply to the civil rights movement -- I mean, the civil rights trip. And I was just -- honestly, I was just hooked. I could not (laugh) -- I was just, like, I can't say no. I'm going to do it. And I was, like, I should totally try this, because one, I love to travel, and two, like, I wanted to see where all the landmarks of these very important people would, like, have been, what they've achieved, what this means for the future, and what it means for us.

HAILEAnd so, I felt like applying to this would definitely give me a different perspective of, like, what I saw were social issues and, like, what I believed were my beliefs, in general. And so it was more of, like, an identity, and also what I wanted to do for my future. And so I made it my goal that I would learn more about it. And so I continued on, and I did an NHD project -- which is National History Day project -- on Fannie Lou Hamer and Coretta Scott King.

HAILEAnd so, like you said, Judy, earlier, a lot of people don't get a lot of credit, and I wanted to focus it more on women of the civil rights movement. And so I focused on Fannie Lou Hamer and her beautiful voice and how she encouraged the SNCC movement, and, like, taking the literacy test, even though it's extremely impossible. Like, I took the test. It was not easy. And so, like, I just focused on the two women and, like, what their two lives were, the different social status that they had and, like, why they tried to silence Fannie Lou Hamer. And so, it's just been my goal to learn more about it and it's been an honor to honestly been on the trip for two years in a row.

NNAMDIYeah, the literacy test used to be like ready this entire paragraph that's written in an obscure language that nobody's ever seen before (laugh). But you brought the particularity of your own background and identity to this, and it resonates with you. Why?

HAILEMy dad always used to say, be a good citizen of the world. And I never understood what that meant until, like, I got into high school and I started learning about what it means to be me. It's been difficult to figure out what it means to have an identity, especially when you're just one tiny student in this huge world, and especially DC. And so I decided that learning about civil rights movement would give me a background about myself, specifically what it means to be black, but also Ethiopian in America.

HAILEBecause, in the eyes of the government, I'm still seen as another minority, another African American kid. But I'm not African American, but I'm also considered black, still. So, on that checkbox, I'm always going to be checking off black African American, because intersectionality isn't what's known in our society today. And that's the push that I want to make for everyone, especially in the civil rights movement. Like the Black Lives Matter movement or the black feminism, like, I support all of that.

HAILEAnd I also got to study black feminism at Cornell, which gave me a lot of insight on what I want to do with myself, gave me a lot of self-confidence. I totally learned a lot. And civil right movement -- that civil rights trip was also a big push to that trajectory in, like, what I want to do in the future. And that's definitely making a change in this world.

NNAMDIOn to the telephones. Here is Joyce in Washington, DC. Joyce, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOYCEYes, good morning. I’m a teacher here in Washington, DC, and I agree that Dr. King is a very important person in the civil rights movement, but there were many more people involved. In fact, I remember our church, I was raised in Montgomery County, and our little church had a bus, and we all got on the bus and we went down to the first march. And I remember putting my feet in the wading, you know, the pool and worrying about the chicken that was supplied by the sisters of the church. And that's when we heard the speech.

JOYCEAnd as a teacher, I share all of this with my students, because I teach first grade, but also the other teachers in the school want me to come and share my experience. And I call my first graders nation builders, because they're the ones that are the future. And I tell them, you're the ones. Your hands, with your education, are the ones that's going to build this nation. So, I tell them about all of the people in the civil rights movement.

JOYCEAnd I love that video "Eyes on the Prize." I have an old VHS version. I'd love to get a new version, because I've worn it out. Teachers have borrowed it from me and threatened to, you know, to keep it. But it's just an informational piece of work. And I use the "Selma, Lord, Selma." And my kids are getting this from the very first. I teach first grade at LaSalle. So, my kids are getting this, as a teacher, and that's all I've got to say.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you. Thank you very much. There's some important local connections there, Judy Richardson. As I recall, Juan Williams is one of the writers on "Eyes on the Prize." And Julian Bond was the narrator, I seem to remember.

RICHARDSONYes, he was.

NNAMDITo what extent is "Eyes on the Prize" still being used, especially in schools, in general, and high schools, in particular?

RICHARDSONActually significantly. And, unfortunately, PBS is not promoting it as much, and they only promote, usually, the first six hours, which tends to be...

NNAMDIBecause it was 12 hours, right?

RICHARDSONIt was 14 hours, actually.

NNAMDIFourteen hours.

RICHARDSONSo, six hours for the first series, up to '65. And then the second series starts with Malcolm X, and goes through the election of Harold Washington. And the really amazing one -- particularly for today, to mention -- is the fourth hour in that second series. And it's called -- oh, what is it called? I'm going to get it in a minute. It's called “The Promised Land,” and that's Dr. King's last year. It's called “The Promised Land,” and you see where Dr. King is in 1967, '68. So, when we keep talking about just “I Have a Dream” and “I Have a Dream,” in '67, he's not talking about a dream. And you see him, in footage, in "Eyes on the Prize," in that segment, talking about what we need is a radical redistribution of economic power.

RICHARDSONThat's where he is then. He's talking about protests against the Vietnam war. And one of the things that we do is, you know, we keep talking about the dream, and so young people get a little tired of seeing the same dream speech, right. Bring him up to South Africa, bring him up to all the wonderful radicalism that he's doing in '67, '68. Anyway, yes, you can get it -- particularly as teachers -- if you go on to PBS, and you go to the teachers section, whatever that is. And I can actually give you the link, so that they can come to your show and get it, yeah.

NNAMDI(overlapping) We'll make sure we put the link on our website at kojoshow.org. Here's Jim in Fredericksburg, Virginia. And Joyce, thank you for your call. Jim, your turn.

JIMThank you, guys. My name is Jim Stevick (sounds like). I'm a lifelong resident of the Fredericksburg area, and James Farmer was a teacher at Mary Washington. It was a college then. And I would just like for your panel or you to talk about James Farmer and his contribution to the civil rights movement. Thank you very much.

NNAMDIJames Farmer was associated with the Congress of Racial Equality. The Congress of Racial Equality was the organization that sponsored most of the Freedom Rides. Is that correct, Judy?

RICHARDSONThat is correct. And I did not know him myself, because, again, I was with SNCC, but he was absolutely amazing. I mean, everything that everyone says about him, as one of the main folks behind the Freedom Rides in 1961, where the buses get burned, where people get beaten because they're sitting -- you know, supposedly according to law -- on this interstate travel bus. And also, when we, SNCC and CORE the Congress of Racial Equality, which was headed by James Farmer, when we did Mississippi Freedom Summer in 1964, Dave Dennis was co-coordinator of that, along with our project director, Bob Moses. So, CORE and SNCC were very much aligned, in a lot of ways.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call. Francesca emailed: do trips like this exist for adults? (laugh)

MOORMANWell, I will say, our bus driver -- we've had the same bus driver every year -- was actually a retired history teacher himself. He, I think, has convinced his bus company to start a similar trip. You know, I know that there are organizations that run different trips like this. We've also thought about how we can do something like this for a larger group of our faculty, like I said, for parents, and to think about opportunities for inner generational learning. Because I think there's so much -- and Judy alluded to some of this before -- but there's so much great opportunity for young people today to learn from the SNCC veterans who are around and sharing their stories.

MOORMANI've had a lot of opportunities through Teaching for Change to hear different veterans sharing what happened during the movement. And I think to really inspire young people -- but also share the lessons learned, you know, there's a lot that we can learn from that. So, we hope that there are other people who are taking advantage of the opportunity to travel.

NNAMDITwitter user Trizzle says: my community and parents taught me civil rights history. Then I attended Howard University, and that's where my eyes were fully opened, because white teachers were more concerned with European history. We should look at statewide high school curriculum, period, and challenge outdated books and selected stories. We're going to take a short break. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back on this Martin Luther King, Junior federal holiday. We're talking about teaching the civil rights movement in the broader aspects of the civil rights movement. And we're talking with Judy Richardson. She was series associate producer and education director of the PBS series "Eyes on the Prize." She was a Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee SNCC staff member during the 1960s. Judy joins us in studio, along with Barrie Moorman, college and alumni success counselor at E.L. Haynes Public Charter School, and organizer of the school's annual civil rights tour of the South.

NNAMDIAlso with us in studio is Kalkidan Haile. She's a senior at E.L. Haynes Public Charter School, who has attended the civil rights tour for the past two years. Kalkidan, what were your favorite moments of the trip?

HAILEThere were many moments that I loved. Oh, my God, I don't even know what to choose, but I would like -- I liked the Greensboro stop, our first stop...

NNAMDI(overlapping) You did the simulation of the Greensboro. Georgia sit-ins, did you not?

HAILEYes, I did. That was a very powerful moment -- for me, especially. It was kind of shocking, and I kind of left with almost aftershock and, like, fear.

NNAMDII should mention we're talking about the sit-ins that started in Greensboro, North Carolina in 1960.

HAILEYeah, I -- yeah, that -- it was actually kind of cool that they could simulate it, and we could experience almost everything that happened in the diner. But it was also -- it kind of left me angry. It kind of left me angry that students near my age, kids going -- that are in college at North Carolina A&T, kids that are -- that I'm going to be taking their position. And it was kind of shocking, and I didn't really enjoy it, but it was an eye-opener. And I think a lot of the students on the trip on that day also believed that.

HAILEAnd in addition to that on, like, a brighter note, getting to meet Joanne Bland was absolutely amazing. She's an absolute charm. She's a star. I can't even explain...

NNAMDI(overlapping) Who, Joanne Bland?

HAILEYeah. this is Joanne Bland. She was absolutely amazing. She gave us a tour of Selma and encouraged us to advocate for Selma. And she even told us to email one of (laugh) -- the mayor in Selma. And I think it was a great trip, just getting to meet her and getting to hear her experiences on Bloody Sunday. And when she told us about Bloody Sunday, it kind of made me realize that I am absolutely in her -- like, if I were her in that position, I would've done the same thing. And it was encouraging to see someone of her time and she's just a great person.

NNAMDIBarrie, as a white teacher, what do you need to be conscious of when it comes to teaching and learning more about civil rights history?

MOORMANYeah, I think there's a lot. I think one thing that I always keep in mind is that I can't teach what I don't know. And so, in my own schooling experience, up through high school, I learned about the civil rights movement from a textbook, supplemented some at home. But if my goal is to uplift the stories of people whose voices are often left out, it's important that I take responsibility for learning those and for researching them and finding who those people are. And then, if those are people in my community, inviting them in to come talk with students.

MOORMANI think it's also important for me to be aware of my limitations, as a white person, in talking about issues of race, that I may be bringing in text or articles, videos or speakers that are addressing issues that are my students' lived experiences. And so, you know, I seek to listen. I seek to empathize and to understand, but there's something different for me about reading about something, versus a student who may feel like that happened to me last week.

MOORMANAnd I think it's important that I'm conscious about how I respond to that, how I interact, and the times that I can be working with colleagues and with people in my community across difference who are going to be able to facilitate conversations or engage with students in partnership with me in a way that's different than what I can do.

NNAMDIJudy, before we go back to the phones, last week we interviewed Keith Hamilton Cobb, who is the writer and main actor, the only actor in the play "American Moor." And the play is about a white director trying to direct and teach a black actor how to play Othello, and the black actor's anger at the white director not understanding that he understands Othello a lot better than the white director does. What do you think white teachers who cover the civil rights movement need to be aware of when teaching this movement, especially to students of color?

RICHARDSONYes. Well, first of all, I think Barrie said it beautifully. It is, first of all, knowing this is lived experience. And so even when we did our NEH three-week training down at Duke for 30 teachers, including a cadre from DC, an amazing cadre from DC, I think what we realized was that, you know, the white teachers really did -- some of them need to understand -- and already understood. I shouldn't say that. This was not new -- that the material they were covering, these -- the black students in their classroom were bringing very lived experiences. It's exactly what you're saying. They're looking at police brutality.

RICHARDSONSo, if you're showing, for example, the assassinations of Black Panther's Fred Hampton and Mark Clark in Chicago from "Eyes on the Prize," to understand that they may have just seen a police brutality incident in their own community and to give enough leeway for them to talk about that. But also not to feel personally threatened by some anger because that's going to come out. And that can come out even with black teachers.

RICHARDSONSo, it's that -- I did want to say one thing. When Kalkidan was talking about Selma -- and, by the way, I want to be as articulate as you when I grow up, honey (laugh). You're just amazing. But she was mentioning Selma, and one of the projects I'm working on currently is the National Parks Services' new orientation film for their Selma to Montgomery site. So, that'll be based in Selma, so we've been doing a lot of interviews for that. And Joanne Bland was -- she is always amazing, yeah.

RICHARDSONBut I think one of the things, though, 80 percent of the teaching population in this country is white. So, the main thing is not to say, well, white teachers shouldn't teach black students. I mean, that gets us nowhere. I have seen white teachers who teach some of this history better than some black teachers. So, I can't go just by race. Particularly a sensitive white teacher as, you know, clearly Barrie is, and there are others whom I met at the NEH training. It really is to bring, you know, your full self and to really be conscious of what's going on in your classroom. And the best teachers already do that. So, you know, I'm not as concerned about that, I think.

NNAMDIHere's Jamie in Virginia. Jamie, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JAMIEHi, Kojo. My comment, Barrie, is related to a lot of information that I got in university, which I guess says one thing that I had to learn about the civil rights movement as late as college. But on the topic of obscure people and things that are missed in the civil rights movement, I always get really upset when I hear that, you know, an angry white politician like Richard Nixon thought that the most dangerous aspect of the Black Panther Program -- or the Black Panthers was the lunch program.

NNAMDI(overlapping) Breakfast program.

JAMIEThat feeding black children was a, you know -- and J. Edgar Hoover had personal, you know, oh, this is dangerous. And I see the same sort of threat of thought in today's culture, and it still bothers me.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you very much for your call. We will be talking very shortly about what's going on today in terms of the Black Lives Matter movement. I wanted to get a few more calls in, quickly. Here's Burt in Alexandria, Virginia. Burt, your turn.

BURTGood afternoon, Kojo. Good to talk to you again. My comment is this, I lived through the civil rights movement. My parents were actively engaged on various levels. I myself experienced racism firsthand. And it wasn't until I went to a school in New York, a prep school in New York where I began to understand how to have confidence in myself as a person. That's because black history was taught from a world view, so I got a chance to learn about black civilizations that were once kingdoms and very powerful kingdoms, you now, all the way up to the civil rights movement. And we really got heavily into those things.

BURTI think the moment we begin to understand that black history is not something that we have to expand the education process and include it in our global history, period, and not just make it once a month, then we'll have better results.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you very much for your call. You should know that the book store that Judy Richardson and others started and employed yours truly in used to carry books by people like Chancellor Williams and Benjo Khanan (sounds like) and John Henry Clark that talks about that history that preceded the civil rights movement and went all the way back to Africa. So, yes, this is just a part of a continuum. We're discussing a specific part of that continuum today, and that's the civil rights movement. But thank you for reminding us about all of that. Kalkidan, when you came back from your trip, you started engaging with your community differently. How?

HAILEWell, I came back with, like I said, a different perspective on life and everything else around me. I came back ready to start a change, ready to learn how to facilitate conversation and learn how to advocate for others that don't usually use their voice as much as I do. So, I got into Critical Exposure, which is a photography program that teaches students how to facilitate conversation with stakeholders or authorities. And it also teaches that through photography. So, basically, they use the medium of photography to teach students like us about activism, and what it means to advocate for others.

HAILEAnd so I took a picture of the 16th Baptist church that was very meaningful to me and entered it into one of our exhibits. And so things like that, and I also started working with our young activist club that we began at our school. We had Angel Enriquez, we had Lizeth Correas (sounds like) and many more that began this club, and we continue to teach. But it kind of withered down, because there weren't as much students that got to experience what we got to see, what we got to feel, what we got to hear from all these inspirational people and places that we got to experience.

HAILESo, my guess, when I came back my goal was to encourage as many people to apply for the civil rights trip as much as possible, and to further our education in civil rights in general.

NNAMDIJudy, I suspect the SNCC Legacy Project is dealing with this, but how is the Black Lives Matter movement changing how people see and learn civil rights history?

RICHARDSONWell, you know, it's interesting. When I was -- because I was a visiting professor up at Brown, and that was -- like, in 2015. I remember asking the class -- actually 2012, I remember asking the class, well, how many of you are registered to vote, right? And so they all put their hands up, because they knew I was going to, you know, be really mad if they hadn't. But then I said, how many of your, you know, colleagues do. And they said, well, not so much. Well, of course, then Trump got in.

RICHARDSONSo, we found the same thing, because we've been doing -- particularly through Courtland Cox, who was our chairman for the SNCC legacy, we have been doing a lot of -- been in a lot of conversations with the larger movement for Black Lives, BYP 100, Dream Defenders, Christina Jimenez, a lot of folks who are part of that larger movement at Duke and other places. And I remember when we had a 2015 conference with the movement for Black Lives, and a lot of the young people were saying, we don't see any point in voting. Well, again there, Trump got in.

RICHARDSONAnd so what you saw in this latest time, when we were together last year, was a real understanding of how the vote translates into power, you know, that it is not the be all and end all. You know, it's one of those things that is necessary, but not sufficient, but it is necessary. And that's, I think, what young people in the larger movement for Black Lives are hearing. And certainly, when we talk with them, we are learning from them about how you use the, you know, social media and stuff. But I think one of the things they also understand from us is that we really focus, in SNCC, not on mobilizing, but on grassroots organizing for long term organizing, right.

RICHARDSONSo, it's not about getting a flash mob of 200 people at a corner, you know, so that you can protest X, Y or Z. It is about what are you doing within the community for the long term, because that's what the right wing does. You know, the Federalist Society, the reason they captured the federal judiciary is because 20 years ago, they said, we're going to capture the federal judiciary. And they figured out a 20-year plan to do that. So, it's not going to happen overnight, but it is about long-term grassroots.

NNAMDIBut Kalkidan, when you're 16, 17 years old, sometimes it's hard to think in the long term.

HAILE(laugh) Yeah.

NNAMDIIs that how this has affected you, to some extent, that you now realize you have to think in the long term?

HAILEYeah. I've always been the type of person to think of consequences and, like, how this will affect me in the future. And so, I definitely knew right away when I went on the civil rights trip and, like, got to experience all these different things, that this would make or break me. So, I knew that this was going to be what I would do for the rest of my life. This is how I would change either my society, my community or the rest of the world. And I would hope to be one pawn to this huge change. And so...

NNAMDIThe other thing I learned about the SNCC people is that they knew how to party on Saturday night (laugh). But that's another story. That's another story, entirely. (laugh)

RICHARDSONThat's right.

HAILEI wouldn't know that. I would not know that.

NNAMDII'm afraid we're out of time. We don't have the time to go into the details of that. Judy Richardson is series associate producer and education director of the PBS series "Eyes on the Prize." She was a Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee staff member during the '60s. Judy, always a pleasure.

RICHARDSONAnd me, too. Thank you.

NNAMDIBarry Moorman is college and alumni success counselor at E.L. Haynes Public Charter School and organizer of the school's annual civil rights tour of the South. Barrie, thank you for joining us.

MOORMANThank you so much.

NNAMDIAnd Kalkidan Haile is a senior at E.L. Haynes Public Charter School. She's attended the civil rights tour for the past two years. Kalkidan, thank you for joining us.

HAILEThank you for having me.

NNAMDIToday's show on ways to remember Dr. King's legacy was produced by Monna Kashfi. And our discussion on teaching the civil rights movement was produced by Cydney Grannan. Coming up tomorrow, how the federal shutdown has impacted the local restaurant industry. Plus, we'll check in on the health of the Chesapeake Bay. That all starts tomorrow, at noon. Until then, thank you for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.