KOJO NNAMDIWelcome back. DC residents charged with felonies are sentenced under local guidelines. But because of the District's unusual status, they serve their sentences in more than 100 federal facilities scattered across the country. That means there's yet another group of Washingtonians affected by the government shutdown, which has caused the Bureau of Prisons to furlough up to half of its staff. Those remaining are working without pay. Plus, federal prisons may see some changes in the future as a result of a new law affecting prison conditions, sentencing and early release. How are federal policies impacting Washingtonians in the criminal justice system? We'll check in.

KOJO NNAMDIJoining me in studio is Charles Thornton. He is the board chair of the DC Corrections Information Council. He's also a special assistant at the DC Office of Human Rights. Charles Thornton, thank you for joining us.

CHARLES THORNTONGood morning. Thank you for having me here.

NNAMDIAlso in studio with us is Lashonia Thompson-El. She is the executive director of Women Involved in Reentry Efforts. Lashonia, thank you for joining us.

LASHONIA THOMPSON-ELThank you. It's a pleasure.

NNAMDIAnd joining us by phone is Eli Hager. Eli Hager is a staff writer for the Marshall Project. Eli Hager, thank you for joining us.

ELI HAGERThanks for having me.

NNAMDICharles Thornton, give us a sense, how many DC residents are currently incarcerated in federal prisons, and where are they?

THORNTONSo, right now, there's approximately close to 4,500 DC residents that are in federal prisons. And they are in over 118 prisons all over the country, from California down to Florida.

NNAMDIBriefly, what does the Corrections Information Council do?

THORNTONSo, the Corrections Information Council is a monitoring body that was set up through legislation to go in and do inspections and, you know, monitor conditions of confinement for DC residents that are housed in those prisons. So, basically, what we do, we go in and we do inspections, brick-and-mortar, as well as program services, and talk to the individuals that are serving time, as well as the correctional staff and the executive staff itself.

NNAMDIEli Hager, federal prisons are affected by the partial government shutdown. What has it meant for staffing levels of the Bureau of Prisons? Who's furloughed and who's working without pay?

HAGERRight. So, it's had a significant effect on the Bureau of Prisons staff. It's not entirely clear how many people have been furloughed, because the Bureau of Prisons administrative and press offices aren't functioning as they usually would during the shutdown. But a number of staff who aren't considered essential to maintaining security in facilities or maintaining the safety of property, you know, have been furloughed. You have a lot of other staff who've been calling in sick, because they're not getting paid.

HAGERAnd so what you have is a situation where staff are being asked to do Corrections officer work, even though that's not normally their job. It's called augmentation. So, you have secretaries and administrative staff asking to be prison guards, essentially.

NNAMDICan you put the shutdown staffing shortage into context, into perspective with the Bureau of Prisons' ongoing staff shortages, which were already an issue?

HAGERRight. It was already an issue, and that's been an issue in prison systems nationwide, that ratios of staffing to incarcerated people have been a problem. And that causes situations with violence and contraband entering facilities, and things like that. And so, yeah, this is an ongoing problem. The augmentation that I was talking about has been going on for quite a long time, and this just exacerbates it.

NNAMDIYou've already given us a sense of how prison facilities are coping with the staffing shortages. They're losing people who are generally in administrative positions and other positions for security services, which they are not necessarily trained for. But what does it mean for those in the system?

HAGERRight. And so that's an area that I think that people haven't realized. It also affects incarcerated people themselves. So, for example, at several facilities, they had to stop doing family visits, even over the holidays, you know, because of the staffing shortages. There was a few facilities where they weren't able to sell the same products at commissary, like food and toiletries, you know, again, due to the lack of funds. There are things like compassionate release which is the process by which elderly inmates who are about to, you know, pass away can apply to go home to be able to be with their families in their final moments. But those applications are now waiting on a desk, unread. So, there's a lot of really specific ways in which incarcerated people themselves are affected by the shutdown.

NNAMDIYou mentioned this before, but it probably bears repeating. We've heard about essential personnel in other government positions not being paid, and therefore not showing up for work. Apparently, that's happening with correctional staff, too, but to what extent?

HAGERAgain, the extent to which it's happening is unclear, but there's been some reporting that it's happening more this week than last week, and will probably continue to increase. There's a number of officers who have said that they're worried about going into debt, because under Bureau of Prisons' rules, if you are shown to be in significant debt, you can be fired, because you're then susceptible to bribes by prisoners. And so that's kind of a perverse consequence that some of the guards are worried about.

HAGERThey're also worried about the high cost of gas because so many prisons are in remote locations, that they have to do long drives every day. And so, you know, it's people who have long travel times or who are worried about going into debt or who otherwise lives paycheck-to-paycheck are the ones who've been most likely to seek second employment driving for Uber or to call in sick, or those kinds of things.

NNAMDIEli, what's the likelihood that Bureau of Prisons staff will eventually receive the back pay they're owed?

HAGERWell, there was a government shutdown several years ago under the Obama Administration, and the Bureau of Prisons is still kind of figuring out how to correctly pay the people who didn't receive pay then. So, obviously, it takes a while. But under federal law, people who work this amount of overtime are supposed to get paid extra, actually, after the fact. So, it's pretty likely that folks will get paid, but it's not clear how long that will take. And the waiting is what's stressful for people.

NNAMDIWhat about the inmates themselves? They do work. They're supposed to be paid for the work that they do. Are they being paid for the work that they're currently doing in these facilities?

HAGERSo, they are actually being paid, and some of the Corrections officers have pointed out that that's, you know, seemingly unfair, that the incarcerated people are continuing to get paid, but not the guards. But one thing to point out about that is that incarcerated people are paid only cents on the hour, very, very low wages. And this money that goes to pay them was previously budgeted, and they won't get paid back double like a lot of Corrections officers will, you know, after this is all over.

NNAMDICharles Thornton, in your experience inspecting prisons, how much does the number of staff and how much does staff morale matter when it comes to how people who are incarcerated are treated?

THORNTONI mean, it matters greatly. I mean, especially the amount of staff, so that, you know, the different programs that operate within the institution, if staff is not available, you can't run the GED programs. When you're using teachers to do other jobs around the facility, it makes it hard for people to continue to program. So, staffing is key.

NNAMDIEli, you've been in touch with people who are currently incarcerated in these prisons. What have they been telling you about life during the shutdown?

HAGERThey've been telling us that there's a little bit of chaos and that they can kind of sense the stress that the guards are feeling. And there have been some situations in which that's been taken advantage of. They've also mentioned that things like, you know, not being able to have visits or, you know, the commissary running out of items to purchase and that kind of thing. One of the things that's also interesting about this situation is that there are all these immigration detainees in federal prisons, which was already overloading the system. So, it's kind of ironic that this shutdown that is all about this border wall is, you know, making life even more stressful in prisons, precisely because of Trump's other immigration policies.

NNAMDICharles, are you hearing anything from incarcerated DC residents or from their families about the shutdown?

THORNTONYes, sir. Actually, from both. And also, I want to throw in, too, that we've gotten some calls from some attorneys who have had difficulty getting to see clients in the BOP. Some attorneys have spoke about not being able to get a hold of the Designation and Sentence Computation Center, which is another form -- one of the BOP programs that computate the sentences. So, we've had, you know, calls from family attorneys. And, you know, it's hard for the actual guys incarcerated to call out now. So...

NNAMDIWell, the DC Corrections Information Council does inspect prisons. Do you have plans to inspect prisons, or can you inspect prisons during the shutdown? How can you address the concerns that you're hearing from the relatives of inmates and inmates themselves?

THORNTONSo, what we've done, we actually -- is on the meeting schedule for the interim director to BOP, to bring these concerns to him. It's, I guess, somewhat fortunate that we are in DC, where the executive staff for the BOP is. So, we are looking to sit down with the interim director and go over the concerns that family members are reporting us about the shutdown and how it's affecting.

NNAMDIEli, there are a few other effects of the shutdown that you've reported on. One of them is a delay in the implementation of what's known as the First Step Act, which is a bipartisan effort that President Trump signed into law late last year. Can you explain, summarize the First Step Act for us?

HAGERSure. Well, the First Step Act was a long-awaited piece of prison reform legislation that took a long time to get passed and, as you said, was just signed into law a month ago. And it includes several provisions, but a couple of them have a strict timeline for implementing. So, for example, the Bureau of Prisons is -- well, the Justice Department is supposed to be creating what's called a risk assessment tool to evaluate which prisoners can be released from prison, you know, without a risk of committing a new crime. But under the law, they're only supposed to have 210 days to create this tool. So, obviously, now, with the government being shut down, those days are getting eaten into, and making sure that that happens on time could be affected.

HAGERAnother thing is that, you know, under the law, some prisoners are supposed to have their sentences recalculated based on their good behavior in prison. But some of those recalculations might not be happening right now, because that's administrative work that, during the shutdown, you know, might be delayed. So, you might see some incarcerated people who are kind of waiting to hear what their new sentences are going to be under this prison reform law, but not hearing that and getting frustrated.

NNAMDIEli Hager is a staff writer for the Marshall Project. He joins us by phone. Charles Thornton is the board chair of the DC Corrections Information Council, CIC. He's also a special assistant at the DC Office of Human Rights. And Lashonia Thompson-El is the executive director of Women Involved in Reentry Efforts. Lashonia, you and The WIRE, a group of formerly incarcerated DC women, were involved in advocating for the changes -- some of which Eli just explained -- in federal prisons and the First Step Act. Why did you support the law?

THOMPSON-ELSo, again, thank you for having me. The women of The WIRE supported the law because it initially started out with Senator Booker and Senator Warren wanting to restore dignity to incarcerated women. And so...

NNAMDI(overlapping) That's Cory Booker and Elizabeth Warren.

THOMPSON-ELYes.

NNAMDIOkay.

THOMPSON-ELAnd so some of the things that they wanted to implement was to eliminate shackling of women who are in labor, or instituting more programs, and as Eli spoke about, the risk assessment, to see if there are people that are not necessarily a threat to the community that are still incarcerated that could possibly be released. And so I really was hoping that a couple of the women at The WIRE would be able to be here today, because they both experienced shackling while incarcerated.

THOMPSON-ELAnd I think we tend to underestimate the trauma that that causes for women in prison, as well as the generational impact of incarcerating women who are mothers, because both of these women, after release, had to fight for custody of their children, and thankfully were able to regain custody of their children. And their children are doing well, and they're working in a mental health field and giving back to other women who have those same experiences. But again, just restoring the dignity of women in prison.

THOMPSON-ELAnd you spoke about the staff shortages. I remember there was a situation where there were three women to a cell. One was on the floor, which it was a cell designed for two women, so the third woman had to have her mattress on the floor. And you were supposed to -- you're in segregation, and you're supposed to have a shower three times a week. So, you have three women, in a cell, with the bathroom. And one is on the floor and a mattress, and they're supposed to get a shower three times a week. But due to staff shortage, they're unable to shower.

THOMPSON-ELSo, you have male guards who are responsible for your basic dignity, whether or not you can bathe, whether or not you have access to sanitary products. And then these are the same women who return to the community who've already suffered trauma prior to incarceration. And basically, by having staff shortages, you subject women in prison to unfair and inhumane treatment. So, it's really important that we take a look at the First Act. Some people are looking at it like it's a phantom legislation, because it feels like it'll do something, but people wonder, like, what will it really do.

NNAMDII think you just shocked some people, because a lot of people, I don't think, understand that pregnant incarcerated women are sometimes shackled on medical visits, or even during childbirth. And you just mentioned that some of the women you work with have had that experience. So, what would the First Step Act mean to them?

THOMPSON-ELSo, it would mean that this can't happen anymore, that women can no longer be shackled during childbirth and delivery and during labor. And, again, it will reduce the impact of this trauma of incarceration, and possibly give these women a greater opportunity to succeed upon release. Because trauma, you know, leads to relapse and leads to recidivism. So, we want people to be treated like human beings when they're incarcerated and to get the support and the help and the resources that they need.

NNAMDIWe got an email from Will. I wonder if your guests know anything about how the lack of federal funding is impacting the ability of people to visit their loved ones in federal prisons. It's important to note that visits impact not just those in prison, but also their friends and families who travel extensively, often long distances at significant expense to keep their families and friendships intact. We're going to take a short break right now, but when we come back, I want to talk about how the First Step Act might be able to affect those and how the delay in its implementation may affect those District residents who are in federal institutions. I am Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWe're discussing how federal policies impact incarcerated DC residents, because DC residents who are sentenced to prison have to serve their time in federal institutions, since DC is neither a state, nor is it in a state. We're talking with Lashonia Thompson-El, executive director of Women Involved in Reentry Efforts, or WIRE. Eli Hager is a staff writer for the Marshall Project, and Charles Thornton is the board chair of the DC Corrections Information Council, CIC. He's also a special assistant at the DC Office of Human Rights. Here is Nikki, in Washington. Nikki, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

NIKKIThank you so very much. My name is Nikki C., and I want to say hello to Kojo and really thank you for putting this phenomenal program together with some of my colleagues.

NNAMDIYou're welcome, Nikki.

NIKKICharles and Lashonia, you know, they've been on the frontlines of these issues for many years, and I really appreciate their contributions. And I also want to shout out to Marshall Project for continually shining a light on these issues so people across the country know what's going on. I want to echo everything that I've heard so far, and to also really advance the sentencing provisions that are part of the First Step Act. One being the retroactivity of the Fair Sentencing Act, which reduces disparity between crack and powder cocaine and other provisions, and also to ensure that this is not the last step. We got a whole lot more to do. So, I'm just thrilled with the guests that you have on your show, Kojo, that we're going to get it done.

NNAMDII guess Nikki said this is not the last step. That's why they call the legislation the First Step, I guess (laugh). Thank you very much for your call. Onto Tom in Tacoma Park, Maryland. Tom, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

TOMYes. Thank you for taking my call. I wonder if people are aware -- ordinary folks are aware that the telephones in prison are provided by separate carriers -- that the telephones available to inmates are provided by separate carriers that make a great deal of money off the inmates and their families by charging -- what I have to say, I feel -- are exorbitant rates, five and more times what any other person would have to pay for a phone call who's free to go buy a phone card, or something like that.

TOMThe inmate is stuck with this one set of phones, operated by one company. And that company can charge whatever they think the inmates or their families can come up with. And, really, you know, given that District inmates are scattered all over to California, you can imagine the rates that some of their families are trying to come up with to even talk to them when there is adequate staffing to allow them to use the phones, let alone under this grizzly situation we've got now. And if it's okay with you, I'll take my answer off the air.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call. Before you take your answer, let's go to Mike in Washington, who wants to also talk about phone calls. Mike, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MIKEYes. I was incarcerated in North Carolina at the GEO facility, Rivers. It's formerly Wackenhut. And the phone calls were supposed to be for 15 minutes, but we noticed that the calls were only for 10 minutes. And that was even a problem at DC jail. And the phone calls at DC jail were supposed to be for 15 minutes, and they were also for 10 minutes. So, that's my only comment.

NNAMDICharles, is there anything that the DC Corrections Information Council can do about that, outside of meeting with the officials of these prisons and passing on these complaints?

THORNTONWell, so, yes. And you have to start with the force, you know. And there's been considerable amount of advocacy around phone calls. I think it's the -- I can't think of the name, but the federal board that's charged with regulating that, it's definitely on their radar. There's several advocacy groups. What we do is bring that voice to the BOP itself and try to work through them with the advocacy groups, as well as the regulators to try to get some kind of control of that.

NNAMDIThe new law overhauling federal prisons also requires the Bureau of Prisons to put prisoners in facilities closer to their homes. What exactly is the new rule, and why does it especially matter to DC residents, Lashonia?

THOMPSON-ELSo, the new rule is that incarcerated individuals should be no more than 500 miles away from home. And, again, that's one of the things that makes women in prison feel like it's phantom legislation, because 500 miles is pretty far for caregivers who are most likely elderly and can't afford to take the trip and afford lodging. And so, again, this hurts a woman's ability to maintain community ties and family ties, and makes reentry and family reunification that much more difficult.

NNAMDICharles, how far away are some DC inmates from their homes?

THORNTONAgain, as I said earlier, as far away as California. So, well over 500 miles, in some cases.

NNAMDISo, their families have a lot of difficulty visiting them. Speaking from a more personal standpoint, were you able to maintain bonds with your family and community over the distance, and did that help when you returned?

THORNTONWell, actually, I spent most of my time when there was a prison in the District, which was Lorton. It was in Virginia. So, you know, and there were programs set up. You know, we had a bus take family members down. You'd catch it at 11th and G, took you down to Lorton. I did get a few visits when I was in Danbury, Connecticut, and I can personally say that that family bond, that tie, you know, when you keep it going, it definitely has an impact on, you know, successful reentry.

NNAMDIWhat was your experience, Lashonia? Were you able to maintain bonds with your family, your community?

THOMPSON-ELI was, and thankfully, I had the support of Our Place DC, which was a nonprofit organization at the time that was exclusively dedicated to women in prison and women in reentry. And they provided transportation and supplemented hotel fees and allowed family members to be able to come up and even stay overnight. So, my children literally grew up while I was in prison, because I stayed in prison for 18 years, and they were babies when I went away. And I was able to maintain ties, because we had that community support in place.

THOMPSON-ELAnd now, I'm happy to say that (word?) while me and Mr. Thornton were both there, previously has taken on that role of helping to provide visitation through facilities. Even though it is not as consistent, they are doing it, and it's a heavy lift for the community, because we have to fill those gaps. Because the nonprofit I spoke of earlier is no longer in existence.

NNAMDII know Carol Finley and her group Home DC also tries to...

THOMPSON-ELYes, mm-hmm, Hope House.

NNAMDI...Hope House DC also tries to provide visitation for DC inmates in other places. But Charles, there are some areas where the changes to prisons under the First Step Act will not apply to DC residents, right?

THORNTONWell, you say some areas, and the full extent of the act, you know, the First Step Act is federal legislation that was put in place for federal, you know, violators. Now, of the 2.2 million people that's incarcerated, there's only 180,000 that are in the federal system. Of that 180,000, 4,500 are from DC. But the thing is, the DC persons who are in the federal system have not been sentenced on the federal guidelines, so it does not apply to them.

NNAMDISo, DC residents are not sentenced under federal guidelines. They're sentenced under DC guidelines...

THORNTON...DC, uh-huh.

NNAMDI...but they are incarcerated in federal custody.

THORNTONRight.

NNAMDIAnd then a federal parole board oversees their release back into society.

THOMPSON-ELIt banned an old law, yes sir.

NNAMDIHow does that work?

THOMPSON-ELIt's not working.

NNAMDI(laugh) I guess that's a good answer. So, the lines between the DC justice system and the federal justice system are quite tangled. Has DC always relied on the federal prison system this way?

THORNTONAbsolutely not. I mean, this is all based off of legislation, the 1997 Revitalization Act, which gave Congress the -- which turned the DC criminal justice system over to the federal system. At the time, I think DC was in a receivership. We were having trouble, fiscal trouble, and we just said we'll take and turn our system over to the federal system.

NNAMDI(overlapping) You were on their control board during that time.

THORNTONAnd it was done through an act of Congress, so now it would take an amended act of Congress to change it.

NNAMDIHere is a Tweet from Debra. Does anyone know how good time credits would be handled for people who are not able to participate in programming, because it is canceled? Many people get days off for each month they participate in programming, as the guests well know. Is this keeping people in longer?

THOMPSON-ELWell, I guess we would have to talk to people that's kind of incarcerated to know the level at which programming has been canceled or eliminated as a result of the shutdown. But I would imagine that it's probably the last thing they're thinking about when safety, we know, is the most important thing. And if you have staff taking off work, chances are programming and classes won't be a priority. And so, again, this will hurt people that are preparing for release, or even trying to cope with incarceration in general, because you need to be able to, you know, get the self-help and get that mental support or that academic support that you need to make it through that situation and to prepare you for release.

NNAMDIAnd Charles, you mentioned about Lorton, you were a DC resident incarcerated in the years before the Revitalization Act in 1997. What was the system like then?

THORNTONWell, you know, for me, you know, Lorton, you know, there was just a tremendous amount of programs and opportunity that took place in Lorton. We talked earlier about the Federal City College program, where you could actually leave Lorton, go to school and come back to Lorton. They had a bus that rolled out every day, took people to college, and they came back home. It was also...

NNAMDI(overlapping) For those who don't know, Federal City College is one of the predecessors of the University of the District of Columbia.

THORNTONRight. And then there were programs on the compound at Lorton, actually, where you could make teeth. They had a dental hygiene program. People actually learned how to make teeth and were able to come out, become dental technicians and things of that nature. So -- and then there was the Lorton Furlough Program. You actually had people that were going home on furlough. So, there was an abundance of programs at the Lorton facility.

NNAMDILashonia, some of the focus of this new law overhauling the prison system is on funding additional programs and training people while they're serving time with the goal of easing their reentry into their communities when they're released. You're a returning citizen yourself, and at The WIRE, you work to support others who have had the same experience. What are the biggest challenges people face in returning to DC and not recommitting?

THOMPSON-ELMy answer to that question is usually not what everybody else says, which is housing and jobs. My response is usually that the biggest challenge for reentry, especially for women, is family reunification and overcoming the stigma of incarceration. Because I have found that women who have not been able to rebuild their relationships with their family and regain their place as the matriarch of their families have recidivated. They have relapse and they have cycled in and out of incarceration. Because these types of situation unfortunately were not designed for women, so when women have these experiences, it seems to hit them harder emotionally and socially...

NNAMDI(overlapping) Because the expectations when those women return home are the same as before they left. They're expected to become the caretakers...

THOMPSON-ELPrimary caregivers, yeah.

NNAMDI...primary caregivers in their families, even though returning home, they're often homeless and jobless.

THOMPSON-ELYes. And sometimes they may have never worked before. When I went to prison, I was 19, and so I was a teen mom. And by the time I came home, my children were young adults, but there was still the expectation that I would step up. And my son, he has a disability. So, my family had very little patience with me in terms of, you know, when will you be ready. I know you're homeless and you're trying to complete your degree, and you're trying to get to know a city that has totally changed, but we need you to, like, step it up.

THOMPSON-ELAnd that's the way we are, especially in our community. We love our sons and raise our daughters. We expect our girls to just get it done. You know how to be a parent. Clearly, you do, because you're a woman, even if you never have been taught or never had the opportunity to experience being a parent. And, again, that just makes the process that much more difficult for women, and that's why they have to challenge it with success. So, when they're able to rebuild their families and they're able to get that support with healing and working through that process of expectations, they're able to maintain their sobriety and be well and not recommit crimes.

NNAMDICharles, what were the biggest challenges you and other DC residents that you worked with over the course of your career faced on returning home?

THORNTONMm-hmm. I really liked Lashonia's answer. But I do want to echo that there's a psychological impact. And the biggest challenge for me was, you know, being able to face those psychological challenges and those personal challenges around, you know -- and I look at now, today, the city has changed tremendously and it changes every year. So, every time someone is released, you know, it's not the same city that you come back to. And with that comes a psychological challenge that a lot of people don't get over, you know.

THORNTONSo, you know, and it's mental health. People don't like to bring it up in that fashion. That's why I say psychological, but at the end of the day, it's mental health, you know, and being able to deal with the -- because even prison -- you know, for me, prison is psychologically -- it's a mental health thing. I've dealt very well with the, you know, the challenges as being in a prison and institution. But my problem was more the mental challenges that went along with that.

NNAMDIWe got an email from Matthew, who says: a significant percentage of DC residents who are incarcerated have a variety of disabilities. Supports for these people are poor to begin with, and I wonder how the government shutdown further complicates their needed accommodations and reintegration into their communities. Know anything about that at all, Charles?

THORNTONI mean, you know, I think he's very on point and accurate with that, you know, right now. You know, and one of the -- the First Step Act is also trying to deal with compassionate release, as well as elderly release. But, as you said, disabilities, we're not really addressing that and there are, you know, individuals with hearing disabilities, seeing disabilities and other disabilities that, you know, need help. And, you know, not having staff hurts that.

NNAMDILashonia, what programs, support groups or other things do you think prisons or local government, for that matter, should provide if they're serious about reducing recidivism?

THOMPSON-ELI think women definitely need intense residential trauma treatment to learn how to keep themselves safe and understand their triggers and understand what trauma really does to the brain, and even how substance abuse can make trauma -- the impact of trauma worse. I think that we need to really think about bringing back the higher education opportunities to people in prison. We know that it reduces recidivism. I came home, I had 100 credits that were transferrable. I was able to get my degree within one year. And since then, I have had major success in terms of employment.

THOMPSON-ELAnd I'm grateful to the city for having, you know, Ban the Box legislation in place and having other formerly incarcerated people in place that have helped to create a pathway for me. But it was also because I educated -- I had an opportunity to educate myself when I was in prison. I got my GED. I had opportunities that were offered to me. And so I think women need opportunity for higher education. They need trauma training. They need opportunities for substance abuse treatment. And, after release, they just need community support and family support.

NNAMDILashonia Thompson-El is the executive director of Women Involved in Reentry Efforts. Thank you so much for joining us.

THOMPSON-ELThank you.

NNAMDICharles Thornton is the board chair of the DC Corrections Information Council. Thank you for joining us.

THORNTONThank you for having me.

NNAMDIOur conversation on the impacts of federal policies on incarcerated Washingtonians was produced by Margaret Barthel. And our show on furloughed workers becoming substituted teachers was produced by Julie Depenbrock. Coming up tomorrow, an update on the regional competition of the Washington football team's next stadium. Plus, I sit down with sports writer John Feinstein, author of the new book "Quarterback." We take a look at how these players have shaped regional football history. Later this month, we'll discuss the rise of temporary labor and the gig economy in the Washington region. If you're a temp, contract, freelance, part-time or adjunct employee, head to KojoShow.org/blog and take our anonymous survey. Thank you for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.