MR. KOJO NNAMDIYou're tuned in to The Kojo Nnamdi Show on WAMU 88.5. Welcome. Later in the broadcast we chat with people working holidays like Christmas, but first earlier this week, the D.C. Council passed legislation to move ahead on the new hospital slated to be built in Ward 8 of the city. The process has hit some setbacks including the partnering hospital George Washington threatening to pull out of an earlier deal. The latest legislation includes compromise to overcome some hurdles that were problematic in the earlier version, but some feel the final agreement does not protect hospital workers particularly Union members. Joining me in studio is Natalie Delgadillo. She is a Staff Writer at DCist. Natalie, thank you so much for joining us.

MS. NATALIE DELGADILLOThanks for having me, Kojo.

NNAMDINatalie, there was a lot of back and forth on this including a deal that fell apart two weeks ago and now last minute amendments in the Council that seemed to have done the trick. What got passed?

DELGADILLOThat's a really good question. There has been a ton of back and forth over the last several weeks regarding this bill. Basically the gist of what got passed is a bill that waives the certificate of need for GW Hospital. A certificate of need is basically a study that allows the city to understand whether the beds that the hospital is going to build are actually needed in the city and in the surrounding community.

DELGADILLOGW Hospital wanted a waiver not only for East End Hospital. But for an additional 270 beds at it's Foggy Bottom Campus, which already has a hospital on it. A lot of different parties were upset about the potential that the D.C. Council would grant these waivers. And so the final bill basically adds a ton of amendments meant to address and alleviate some concerns from lots of different parties regarding how this deal was playing out at the D.C. Council.

NNAMDIIndeed the final bill that was passed still allows whoever is -- if it's GW that's doing this to not have to have a certificate of need for either of the two facilities.

DELGADILLOThat's correct.

NNAMDIThere was also an amendment passed having to do with Howard University's School of Medicine. What was that?

DELGADILLOThat's true. So Howard University School of Medicine has been sort of upset about the way the deal was playing out. They were worried that the new hospital beds and the exclusivity of the deal with GW was going to put its medical school at risk of potentially losing its accreditation. So the new amendment that's passed, which is a little bit of a watered down version of an earlier amendment, requires that the city find Howard University Medical School an academic affiliation with any hospital in the city. It could be the new hospital on the East End. It could be GW's hospital in Foggy Bottom. It could be any hospital that's operating in D.C.

NNAMDIAnd what has been the latest news about George Washington Hospital's response to all of this?

DELGADILLOYesterday, actually -- on Wednesday GW put a statement out announcing that they are going to be moving forward with the negotiations with the city.

NNAMDIAnd joining me in studio also is Djawa Hall. He is 1199SCEU's political organizer for the D.C. region. Djawa Hall, thank you very much for joining us.

MR. DJAWA HALLThank you very much for having me, Kojo.

NNAMDILet's start with the certificate of need that is no longer necessary if a hospital is built in what Council Member Vincent Gray likes to call the East End. How serious is the need in your view for a new hospital in the East End?

HALLWell, so I think -- first of all I want to say it's an honor to be on your show. And thank you for allowing me the opportunity to shed some light on this issue.

NNAMDIYou'll change your mind before it's over.

HALLI think light is what this process has been missing. There has been no transparency in terms of what this new hospital is going to bring. And what, Natalie so adequately put just a few minutes ago. The certificate of need would allow input from the community in terms of what needs would be assessed by the services that are placed in this new hospital.

HALLSo waiving the certificate of need doesn't allow the members -- and community members in Ward 7 and 8 to have input into this process. I think Vincent Gray -- Council Member Gray has been saying all along that they want equity in the healthcare system in D.C. And without allowing community members to say what is actually needed and what the data shows is needed, this hospital is not guaranteed to provide.

NNAMDINatalie, do we tend to make an assumption that while there may have been a need for certificate of need at a Foggy Bottom location that because the East End only has one hospital at this point, UMC, and it's not doing very well, do we tend to assume that there is a need? And therefore no need for a certificate of need in the East End?

DELGADILLOYes. That's basically the case. Council Member Vincent Gray and GW Hospital both wanted to waive the certificate of need on the East End because the need there according to -- you know, is pretty obvious. UMC is the only hospital that's operating in that part of the city right now except for Providence, which we know is also shutting down a lot of services. So the need is obvious on the East End. But the controversy is coming, you know, regarding the certificate of need in Foggy Bottom, because there are a lot of hospital beds already operating in Northwest.

NNAMDII asked her that, Djawa, because I wanted to underscore your point about you thinking there should be a certificate of need also in the East End, because that would allow community members the opportunity to talk about what their needs are. Do you think that the city, the Council, the Mayor, don't really know what the needs are over there?

HALLWell, what the city has relayed to us is that they, you know, know that there's a need for a hospital. But what I think they are not taking into consideration is what the needs are. What specialty services that this hospital needs to have in order to appropriately service the members of that community. We know that. Data shows that discharges from hospitals in Ward 7 and 8 are mostly women that are presenting as needing health in terms of prenatal and also presenting as a high risk in terms of their delivery. And this service is not going to have high risk obstetrics.

HALLWe know that for a fact, because Vincent Gray has told us in no uncertain terms that this would be too expensive to place into a hospital on the East End of the city. And so people would have to travel the 30 to 40 minutes across town to the campus at Foggy Bottom in order to get those types of services. There's no mention of healthcare services that are going to be placed in this facility. And we know that there a lot of special needs on that end of the city where with the closing of Providence Hospital there's going to be nowhere for those people to go. And we know that the residents in Foggy Bottom and that the staff in Foggy Bottom aren't going to want to take on that high risk labor.

NNAMDIWhat you seem to be saying is that whatever they're planning, it's not going to be the kind of comprehensive care that a certificate of need might identify as being the need in the East End.

HALLThat is correct.

NNAMDIDjawa, a Union represents hospital workers. Where do they come into this?

HALLSo the workers at UMC both represented by 1199 and also the nurse is represented by the D.C. Nurses's Association are asking the city -- we're asking the city --

NNAMDIAnd it's my understanding there's like a total of like 750 workers.

HALLIt's somewhere in the neighborhood of 750 workers. That is correct.

DELGADILLOOkay.

HALLWe were looking to put amendments into this legislation that would allow for the current contracts and the labor agreements at United Medical Center to be transferred into the new hospital. All of those workers that have been suffering through poor management, poor working conditions, not having enough staff to fill the positions needed, also going through no raise periods for several years, dealing with all that stress, right? Of this community and this hospital and now to not have the opportunity to have their jobs guaranteed moving forward is just unacceptable.

NNAMDIWhat is in this new legislation passed by the Council, Natalie, that would offer some protection to workers at the hospital?

DELGADILLOSo the new amendment that was passed on Tuesday basically requires that the new hospital in the East End hire -- I believe it's a little over half or at least half of UMC's current staff. And for the rest of them they would have to provide a written explanation about why they were not hired. What it doesn't do is require GW Hospital to honor those collective bargaining agreements. They wouldn't have to hire them as a part of a Union.

NNAMDINever the less, Djawa Hall, you see this legislation as an improvement. What kind of protections for workers would like to see?

HALLSo I think the bottom line of the -- you know, guarantees that we would want for our workers is that they have contracts that are guaranteeing their seniority, guaranteeing their same salary, guaranteeing all of the benefits that they have now currently carry over to the new hospital.

HALLWhat I think we got was an extremely watered down version of that in terms of their saying that they will accept employees. At least the majority of the workers at the new hospital will be from United Medical Center and that will allow neutrality, which allows the workers to organize and they will not try to stop them from organizing. But that does not do anything for the current workers being able to take what benefits they already currently have to that new hospital.

NNAMDIWell, at the same time we've seen hospitals like Providence and before it, the United Medical Center run into financial problems. Shouldn't hospitals be able to make decisions about hiring in the workforce based on their needs?

HALLAnd I think that's where the sort of confusion comes in as we talked with a lot of the Council members over the last couple of weeks. They were under the impression that once these contracts were transferred that that meant every single employee under that collective bargaining agreement goes over to the new hospital. And in fact, that's true. But what they don't -- what they don't understand is that there are clauses in the contract that allows the employer to hire people as they see fit. And also hire them -- and also lay off people.

HALLSo for instance if there are 5 housekeeping positions at the new hospital and there are 10 at United Medical Center, it's just understood that 5 people are not going to be able to be moved over to the new hospital. UHS, Universal Health Services would have the ability to lay those members off if they had the just cause, which is there aren't enough positions. But without any guarantees, UHS can come up with any type of system and criteria that they determine is necessary to lay those workers off.

NNAMDIWell, wouldn't you say in response to the broad criticism that may come from some people that, you know, this hospital is supposed to be about residents and patients, why are you making it about employment for workers and doctors?

HALLSo I would tell you that 1199 members are caregivers first. And their priority is to make sure that the needs of the community are taken care of. We have been in full support of getting a new hospital. We are not in any way trying to shut down a new hospital from being built, which I think, you know, Council Member Gray called this amendment guaranteeing worker contracts ...

NNAMDIPoison pill.

HALL...a poison pill, calling the workers that have been holding this hospital and this community together poison, which is, you know -- I don't know what to say about that. But I think that the workers there understand that they are taking care of this community. But they are also members of this community as well. So when you're talking about laying off these workers, you're talking about losing workforce members in this community and then not guaranteeing them any opportunity to continue that work.

NNAMDIAnd that's what local 1199 -- or that's what 1199SEIU is looking for guarantees that all of the workers currently employed at UMC would be employed at whatever new hospital there is. That obviously doesn't give either the Council, the Mayor, or whoever is going to build this hospital a lot of flexibility?

HALLSo there's nuance there. We're not saying that we want all the workers guaranteed jobs, because that's physically not going to be possible. What we want is the contracts in the collective bargaining agreement honored. And in those contracts, UHS or whoever takes over the hospital would have the opportunity to make the decisions about who they want to hire or who needs to stay on and who isn't allowed to stay on would have to be given just cause for why they are not (unintelligible).

NNAMDIIt's my understanding that 1199SEIU has had some difficulty, if you will, working with GW Hospital.

HALLWe have had difficulties with United Healthcare Services. Look, it's -- you know, they are --

NNAMDII should point out that United Healthcare Services owns 80 percent of George Washington Hospital. The University owns the other 20 percent.

HALLYeah, and it's Universal. I misspoke. Universal Healthcare Services. So they are a bad actor. They've got allegations against them for poor healthcare. We know that they are -- at least have shown themselves to be anti-Union. Not only here in D.C. at the campus at GW, but across the country they have lawsuits and allegations against them. This is a bad actor.

HALLAnd that the city would partner with this group and essentially hold the East End of the city hostage giving UHS, you know, autonomy to do whatever they want to do and then say that the East End is just going to have to get whatever the UHS people feel like they deserve is really surprising shocking, but also mostly just disappointing.

NNAMDIWe got an email from Sarah who says, Expecting UHS of all companies to run a non-profitable hospital in Ward 8 is like expecting Walmart to open a store in Ward 7. Has Vincent Gray learned nothing? I think Mr. Gray would respond that what he has learned is that they do need both a Walmart and a hospital in the East End, as he calls it. And that he's prepared to do whatever is necessary to get those kinds of facilities there. Before we go Djawa Hall, what are you hoping will come out of all of this?

HALLSo what 1199 is committed to doing is to bringing in the community. We still feel like there is no community voice involved in this process. We want our workers to continue to advocate for themselves and for the better health -- for the best healthcare possible for residents East End of the city. And to make sure that we have a process that is, you know, really inclusive and also guarantees that contracts be honored for the workers that have been dealing with these issues at United Medical Center for many many years and bad management and held this process together.

NNAMDINatalie, do we know what the next steps in the process are?

DELGADILLOYeah, basically the city is now going to continue its negotiations with GW Hospital. They'll come up with a deal or they won't. And if they do the D.C. Council has to sign off on that deal. Also we don't find Howard University -- its academic affiliation by June 2019 of next year that also presents a serious issue.

NNAMDIDjawa Hall?

HALLYeah. We just want to make sure that people are reaching out to the Mayor's office. Call Mayor Bowser, because all of this is in her hands at this point and her office to make sure that she knows what the community wants and what the needs of the community are.

NNAMDINow the legislation that was passed by the Council is now before Mayor Bowser.

DELGADILLOCorrect.

NNAMDIShe signs that legislation, then the negotiations begin.

DELGADILLOExactly, yes.

NNAMDIAnd we'll have to see what happens with all of that. Natalie Delgadillo is a Staff Writer at DCist. Natalie, always a pleasure.

DELGADILLOThanks so much.

NNAMDIAnd Djawa Hall is 1199 SEIU's political organizer for the D.C. region. Djawa Hall, thank you for joining us.

HALLPleasure being with you.

NNAMDINow to take a short break. When we come back, we'll talk with people who are working holidays like Christmas. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.