MR. KOJO NNAMDIWelcome back to WAMU 88.5 D.C. Mayoral Forum. I'm Kojo Nnamdi. We're talking with three candidates for mayor of the District of Columbia, Muriel Bowser, David Catania and Carol Schwartz at NPR's headquarters on North Capitol Street. Joining me are WAMU 88.5 reporter Patrick Madden and NBC 4 correspondent and Current Newspaper columnist Tom Sherwood.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIWe're in a neighborhood where new condo buildings are sprouting up like weeds. And if you're looking for a two-bedroom apartment around here, you'll find that they start from about $2500 a month and typically run about 3,000. If you have young children, you may be asking yourself what you're getting for that money. The zoned schools for this part of town are improving but they are not among the highest performers in the D.C. public school system. School boundaries are affecting the decisions that families throughout the city are making about where to live and whether they want to stay in the district.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIYesterday we heard from a listener named Laura Gross who is raising children in the district and has a question for the candidates' proposals to redraw school boundaries. Here's Laura Gross.

LAURA GROSSI'm a resident of Ward 3 and I'm also a mother of four-year-old twin girls, so this is an important question to me about the school redistricting plan. I want to know where each of the candidates stand with the plan as it is right now. I've heard a lot of rhetoric from each of the candidates but I haven't heard a clear straight answer. Will you let the plan stand as it is or do you want to change things?

NNAMDICouncilmember Catania.

COUNCILMEMBER DAVID CATANIAI think you -- I think there are a lot of very commendable elements in the plan. And I've said all along that there are components that I would move forward with. I'm proposing that we pause for one year so we can help educate parents and what the implications are. Moving too quickly, I think, undermines confidence. If we were to proceed next year, parents would have to start understanding these battery changes within the next 60 days and that's a very tall order indeed.

COUNCILMEMBER DAVID CATANIAI think there are elements that are very noteworthy and worthy of support. They include making sure that Title One -- where there are Title One schools children have a matter of right to pre K three and pre K four. But there are other issues with respect to the feeder patterns that I have concerns about. We're focused on where the new schools, where some schools might be redistricted into new feeder patterns but we're not looking at what the implications might be for other schools.

COUNCILMEMBER DAVID CATANIAFor instance, Cardozo, as currently planned, would lose a good bit of its feeder system into Lincoln Elementary and Cardozo High School. And so shifting schools -- shifting boundaries north to Roosevelt and to that new middle school would essentially cripple, check the Columbia Heights education campus. So there are implications that we need to look through and make sure that we do this right. I think it's most important that we do it right. And at the same time we're looking at boundaries and feeders, it's important to make sure that our schools in east Washington are improving.

COUNCILMEMBER DAVID CATANIAAnd over the last 21 months I've had one-on-one school conversations with about 150 of our school leaders where we talk about how we improve individual schools. And that's led to a couple of historic measures. One, ending social promotion in our city, two, the largest investment in the history of our city and making sure that at-risk children have a chance for an equal education, $80 million.

NNAMDIAbout 15 seconds.

CATANIAAnd three, next week when we come back we're going to be tackling special education. The advocates in our city say three measures on moving forward are the most historic advances in special education in the history of Home Rule. The way in which you improve schools is by improving schools. It's rolling your sleeves up, working hard and getting results.

NNAMDIBoundaries, Councilmember Bowser.

COUNCILMEMBER MURIEL BOWSERWell, thanks for the question. I think the caller wanted a very specific answer. Are you going to move forward with this plan? And my answer is, no. I've said that this plan is not ready and, in fact, what it does is, in my view, it exacerbates inequality in our schools and doesn't improve it. I think that there are good things in it. Most notably it's a reliance on four new middle schools.

COUNCILMEMBER MURIEL BOWSERI have spent time all over this city talking to families. And what I see is a growing confidence in our lower grades. In fact, people moving to the District of Columbia, moving to certain neighborhoods because they are encouraged by our early childhood programs and our lower grades. But they won't stay here in the District of Columbia. They'll go to the public charter school system or they'll go to private schools if we can't send them the strong signal that our middle schools will be ready.

NNAMDIBut you support keeping school's Chancellor Kaya Henderson.

BOWSERI absolutely do.

NNAMDIAnd she absolutely supports this plan so how would you resolve that difference?

BOWSERThe Chancellor, I think, is going to support the plan that's put in place by the mayor. Her job is to make sure that we are improving schools. And I'm going to work with her hand-in-hand to make sure we're doing that. I thought it was important and I'm glad you raised this question.

BOWSERBecause as we move forward in this city, it's important that we're electing the kind of leader who is willing to look at energetic, highly-qualified, nationally-respected people with good ideas and send them the signal that they have a place right here in D.C. government. And that's what I did with Kaya Henderson, that's what I did with the best police chief in the world. And that is...

NNAMDIAnd then you told them to go watch an episode of "Who's the Boss," right?

BOWSER...and that is who I am going to be as mayor.

NNAMDICarol Schwartz, boundaries.

MS. CAROL SCHWARTZWell, listen, I had asked for a delay as well. I didn't -- I thought we should wait since the election was so close for a new mayor before -- that we should move on to something so important as these boundary changes. Even though I understand the need because of school closings, people have to know where their children are going to go. So I think portions of it were needed. I think the more dramatic portions could've waited.

MS. CAROL SCHWARTZI'm concerned about the -- our schools becoming segregated in some of this plan. And I look at Wilson High School where my children went. My children went nowhere but the D.C. public schools but one of the great appeals was the integrated system. And it worries me in Eastern -- that the children east of the river can no longer attend Eastern. That concerns me greatly. I'm going to fight tooth and nail to make sure that we don't go backwards on Brown versus the board of education.

NNAMDICouncilmember Catania, hold your thought because Tom's follow-up question is also about this.

MR. TOM SHERWOODWell, I wanted to talk to Ms. Bowser. I mean, you've said you won't go forward with this plan. I have not heard anything about how you will go forward. This plan took 18 months, endless community meetings, several draft proposals you initially supported. It's a part of the lottery aspect and then you pulled back from that. And then you said you're not going to go forward with this plan at all but what will you do?

BOWSERWell, I think that there -- the plan needs to be tweaked. And I want to have my education team -- reconvene my education team right at January 2 and ask them to look at the things that are of concern to me. Similar to what Mrs. Schwartz just put on the table, we don't want to be drawing lines down our city that exacerbate the geographic boundaries that separate us. So that is a huge concern to me.

SHERWOODSo just to be clear though, what you would do is you would not start it next year, the next school year? You would -- whatever you're going to do you won't start the next school year, '15, '16.

BOWSERWhat I'm going to do is reconvene our education team so that we can put together a plan with the community...

NNAMDII guess what Tom wants is a time table on that.

BOWSERI know that's what he wants.

SHERWOODI guess I'm gonna -- time because parents want to decide where they're going to buy a house, where the kids are going to go to school. And you have an open-ended solution.

BOWSERNo. I think what parents want is they want to know that the next mayor is going to put a plan on the table that doesn't just draw lines down the geographic boundaries of our city but actually lead to real school improvement.

SHERWOODMr. Catania?

BOWSERThey want to also know that we're going to invest in the middle schools, which are the existing chokepoint in our system. And we're going to make that commitment.

NNAMDIMr. Catania.

CATANIAWhat we have in this campaign is the difference between rhetoric and record. You know, I, during my remarks, mentioned, you know, a number of things I've been able to do in the last 21 months again, tackling social promotion, ending -- tackling special education and the largest investment in the history of our city in at-risk youth.

CATANIAWhen Ms. Bowser ran for the council in 2007 she claimed it would be her number one issue, education and in seven years has not produced one substantive proposal. What we have is a slogan Alice Deal for All. Make no mistake about it, the only way you improve middle schools is by having excellent elementary schools.

CATANIAWith respect to Ms. Henderson, I've had a great relationship. We have worked well together but until there's an election, and that is not to be confused with the primary, I don't think it's appropriate to sit down and discuss the future. I've had a great relationship with her. I would invite her, should I win, to come and sit and to talk about how we could find a way forward. I think the mayor is absolutely going to be in charge of education. That's what we voted for in 2007.

CATANIABut I think it isn't exactly a profile in courage as Ms. Bowser fought with Ms. Henderson and had some rather unflattering things to say in the debate, Mr. Sherwood, that you moderated in Ward 7. And then waited until after the primary to send the signal that she would keep her. A real profile in courage would've made that decision before the primary.

BOWSERI don't know what you're referring to but I'm not fighting with any of the officials. What I do is I make sure that they have a plan for how we move forward. And what I will continue to do with our officials is make sure they have a plan to move forward and hold them accountable. I've done it as a councilmember and I'm going to do it as mayor.

BOWSERSo Mr. Catania likes to refer to the promises I've made to Ward 4, so let me say a little bit more about them. He's very right that our platform has been simple in the last seven years to focus on how we improve our schools, improve our school choices in Ward 4. And that's exactly what we've been able to do. We promised to make sure that we're making significant changes on our corridors and we've seen hundreds of units of new housing and more restaurants and retail and finally stopping the retail leakage in our ward.

BOWSERI promised to make sure that our neighborhoods were neighborhoods that were sought after all across the District of Columbia, and that's what we've been able to do because they're safer. We've invested in our schools and our libraries and our parks and recreation centers. And I also promised them that I would go down to the city council...

NNAMDIGot about 15 seconds.

BOWSER...and do the job they sent me to do. That was to make sure we had the resources we need, that we pass the laws that we needed to pass, that we conducted oversight and made sure that we -- I was doing exactly what I needed to do with the budget.

NNAMDIWant to stay with this for a second because, Mr. Catania, you referred to her pledge of Alice Deal for All when, in fact, one writer for the website Greater Greater Washington said at the bottom, your focus on school equality, which uses terms like vertical alignment and horizontal equity, is actually a more sophisticated version of Alice Deal for All.

CATANIAOh, but there's a difference, Kojo. There's a difference between an uninformed platitude and actually doing the heavy lifting...

BOWSERYou know, I've had about enough of Mr. Catania and his uninformed and she doesn't have the intellect and she's not smart and she's a puppet or the Democrats in the city are a puppet. People have had it with that.

NNAMDIWhat do you mean, Mr. Catania, by uninformed platitude?

BOWSERYou know what he means, Kojo.

NNAMDIWell, I'd like him to say in simpler terms exactly what he means.

CATANIAMs. Bowser, may we have a respectful debate where we don't talk over one another? Because I think that's the way in which we're going to...

BOWSERIf you continue to refer to me as uninformed, then we will -- I will continue to respond to you.

NNAMDIMr. Catania, please continue and try to avoid any disrespectful comments.

CATANIAI don't think it's disrespectful to state the obvious. Now, the Alice Deal...

BOWSERNo, sir. It is disrespectful. And the voters will let you know how disrespectful it is.

NNAMDIOne at a time, please.

CATANIAThe Alice Deal for All sense of the council, which comes with no resources, no plans and no thought is not a plan forward. Ms. Bowser talks about having a plan going forward. Well, you know what a plan is. A plan is legislation where you actually sit down with the stakeholders and you create solutions and you move the needle, just as we've done with nearly a dozen pieces of legislation this year over the last 18 months or 21 months, every one of which Ms. Bowser has voted for.

CATANIAWhat the people need are real solutions. And just as I compared what you said in 2004 when you ran and you said you were going to make education the number one issue, as a ward, for a councilmember. You said it in '07, '08 and '12. People are wanting to know what that means. And if seven years later your definition is what you called a simple platform, it's a platform where you're two high schools were the last to be renovated because others advocated more forcefully for theirs.

CATANIAIt's where not a single measure of improvement was introduced. Schools are not going to improve by inertia. They're going to improve by understanding them, rolling your sleeves up.

NNAMDIBefore Ms. Bowser responds, Ms. Schwartz, you cut your teeth here as an elected official on the board of education. You have responded to the boundary issue. You have not on this broader issue of improving education.

SCHWARTZWell listen, I have a history of really having improved education. I went on the board of education, I was on the first Home Rule ballot in 1974. When I got down there, there was no standardized test. I brought those back so that our -- we could understand how our children were faring in comparison to other children. I called for ending social promotions in the 1970s. And we did and then they did away with it.

SCHWARTZWe had pre-kindergarten programs that I helped put in Banneker Academic High School was created by myself and Dr. Vincent Reed. We made a difference and test scores did go up. And so I have a background, not only as a special education teacher, as a board of education member where I was also elected by my peers vice president for then unprecedented three terms as well as my own children having gone to the public schools. Been a presidential appointment as vice chair of the National Advisory Council on the Education of Disadvantaged Children and also on the vice chair of the National Commission on Time and Learning.

SCHWARTZI have a background in education second to none. I will be a very good education mayor if I am elected and will work very well with the Chancellor to make sure that all schools improve in the District of Columbia.

NNAMDIPatrick Madden.

MR. PATRICK MADDENI'd like to ask a question about charter schools. Some education experts say that if the charter school system is left unchecked that it will grow so fast that it will drain many middle class families from the traditional public school system. Councilmember Catania, would you place limits on the growth and also the location of charter schools?

CATANIANo. I prefer to -- rather than to have a system where we're creating an unsavory completion between traditional publics and charters where we pit them against each other, you know, where one has to be seen as growing at the expense of the other, I prefer a system where we look to improve the systems within both schools.

CATANIAAnd as chairman of the committee your responsibility, I think, is to be a fair broker, to not put your thumb on the scale and privilege one over the other. I think it's important for DCPS to improve and to offer the matter of right, high quality that we want.

CATANIAWith respect to charters and limiting where they can go, parents are voting with their feet. And it's a responsibility for us to work and make sure that DCPS has all it can so it can fairly compete. And so the answer is no, it's seductive. People say, look, you know, why not have a neighborhood boundary for a charter school, and we've heard that talked about until you look a little deeper. If that neighborhood boundary is in Ward 3 then you're not exactly going to have diversity there.

CATANIANot far from here we have Two Rivers Elementary School -- Two Rivers Elementary and Middle School. If we were to create a boundary there it would exclude the kids from 7 and 8 who need access to high quality. And similarly if you create say a charter school boundary that is contemporaneous with the traditional public school, you will create a Vulcan death grip battle where kids will go from one to the other and resources will shift back and forth.

CATANIAAnd so our focus has to be, and that's the whole purpose behind the at-risk wait. So the children who are homeless. in the foster care system, who are on public assistance and one year older than their peers, pursuant to legislation I authored are each entitled to $2200 additional funds. These funds are aggregated in our schools, mostly in east Washington so principles and faculty can develop the interventions...

NNAMDIFifteen seconds.

CATANIA...that they need to make sure schools succeed. Look, we have to improve schools through improving schools.

MADDENCouncilmember Bowser.

BOWSERSure. So I support all of our public schools, the D.C. public schools and the D.C. public charter schools. But I think that we would be fooling ourselves if we think that we can continue to grow like this without any plan. I do support a neighborhood preference for public charter schools. It shouldn't be a boundary or a line but it should be some preference in the lottery for people who live around the school. And that would all have to be worked out and carefully planned.

BOWSERI also support a way that location choices for charter schools can be better made. And I think that we can work with how we make our own facilities available, vacant public buildings that can be made available to public charter schools, to open in areas where there's actually need. What we have now is a system where a charter school may open in a location for any number of reasons, mostly because that's where they found the building. In the case of Two Rivers, they're going to open a school that's also located near their existing school, which makes it easier for them. But it also means that children are traveling across the city to get to school.

BOWSERAnd so I think that we need to use the resources of the government to help all of the independent schools, the independent public charter schools and the public charter school board make better decisions about where the schools locate.

NNAMDIMs. Schwartz, you wanted to say?

SCHWARTZI actually met this morning with the leadership of the charter schools and talked very openly about how there is a tremendous need for coordination so we don't have these location things where you have two science centered schools within a block of each other, and also the need for accountability. We've seen in our charter schools in some instances where there's been actual alleged thievery. And this is D.C. public -- this is taxpayers' money. So I think that elected officials should have some say over accountability.

SCHWARTZAnd I talked very openly with them about that but I also talked about the need to work together. These are all our kids. We're in this together and that I think we can have a good working relationship. And choice is not all bad. I mean, I didn't favor it when it happened. It got imposed on us by congress but I think the law can be tweaked and so that there can be better coordination and better accountability. And I think the children will be -- and their parents will be far better because of that.

NNAMDIYou're listening to WAMU 88.5's D.C. Mayoral Forum from NPR's headquarters in Washington, D.C. The candidates we're speaking with are Muriel Bowser, member of the D.C. Council who represents Ward 4. She's the Democratic nominee for mayor. David Catania is a member of the D.C. Council who holds an at-large seat. He's an independent candidate for mayor. And Carol Schwartz, former member of the D.C. Council who held an at-large seat. She's an independent candidate for mayor.

NNAMDIOne listener we heard from prior to the debate is Michael Wilker who's the pastor of a church in Ward 6. He had a question about the group the D.C. government has contracted to run the homeless shelter at D.C. General, the Community Partnership For the Prevention of Homelessness. This was the group in charge of the shelter when the young girl Relisha Rudd was abducted from there earlier this year. Here's what Michael Wilker had to say.

MR. MICHAEL WILKERThe Washington Post has reported that for years leading up to this that the Community Partnership has been mismanaging the shelter, that they've created a climate of fear and intimidation, that their staff has preyed upon the residents and that their staff members have made sexual advances and sexually harassed the residents at the shelter.

MR. MICHAEL WILKERSo my question is, as mayor, will you continue to entrust the care of 400 of our most vulnerable children in the city to this organization or will you begin to immediately sever the contract with the Community Partnership.

NNAMDIMr. Catania.

CATANIAThere is no question that we have done a very poor job of managing this contract. There are nearly 1,000 of our fellow neighbors who live in that facility and it is a function of a failed housing policy. Our homelessness is increasing 16 percent this year over a 13-percent increase last year. And when we don't spend our federal resources, as we didn't last year, to make housing available this year, we're going to continue to see a crisis;.

CATANIAWe need to determine how we define the term we in our city and it has to include our homeless. And we have to have a set of standards there that we would expect for our own loved ones. What has happened there is a disgrace right down to basic humanity. You would think in what took me to the homeless shelter the last time was a few weeks before Ms. Relisha Rudd disappeared, when I was trying to understand why we had such a high truancy rate amongst our homeless kids. It's because they often go to schools in the communities from which they're displaced.

CATANIAAnd even though we give them tokens and transportation options, they're still not going to school. So in my effort to try to understand that, I met with the Community Partnership and the leadership and I found a situation of complete lack of accountability. Simple questions like when was the last time the Department of Employment Services had been on the premises, no one could remember. Simple services like washers and dryers so the residents who live here can have clean clothes.

CATANIAIt may seem like a simple item but when kids aren't going to school because they don't have clean clothes because they fear they're going to be bullied, this is a problem.

NNAMDIWould you sever the relationship with the Community Partnership?

CATANIAAbsolutely. Absolutely.

NNAMDICouncilmember Bowser?

BOWSERI would do a top-down review. I would -- on January 2 we're going to be in the middle of hypothermia season and we know from last year the conditions at D.C. General were deplorable. And we certainly know that the disappearance of this beautiful child is nothing that we in the District of Columbia should accept. And we have to move with great haste to make sure we put all of the changes in place to have a safety net that is just as strong as possible. This is a big contractor who has failed to do the job that needs to be done to keep children like Relisha safe.

NNAMDICarol Schwartz.

SCHWARTZWell, I'm not for contracting out the most vital services of government. I always feel better when the people that work with our most vulnerable population are people that we hire directly, that we do background checks directly. And so I would find it certainly something -- and this is our homeless -- not just homeless but homeless families, children. I would certainly terminate the contract and I wouldn't go looking for another contract. I would hire the people directly and have them work directly for the D.C. government. And we do the background checks and give them, our most vulnerable populations the tender loving care they deserve.

NNAMDITom Sherwood.

SHERWOODLet's stay on housing and low-income housing because low-income people are one moment away from being homeless themselves. Ms. Bowser, the big criticism of you this summer has been the Park Southern complex where as housing committee chairman you've asked the inspector general to look into the mishandling, some would say looting of the Park Southern apartments including some of your supporters like (word?) Jones.

SHERWOODYou asked the IG to investigate but are you aware that the IG has done anything? It seems like this will not be -- have any answers until after the election. Why didn't you act decisively to use your own power as committee chairman to immediately help the tenants?

BOWSERWell, I think that I did act decisively. When I learned about the problems at Park Southern, I did what I always do and investigate what's going on with people by bringing all the parties to the table to find out exactly what happened, the government, the Department of Housing and Community Development and the property management as well.

BOWSERI have met with the tenants of Park Southern and they want what all of us want. They want safe housing, they want adequate transportation and they want a safe community and great schools to go to.

SHERWOODDo we have to wait for the IG report to do that?

BOWSERI think you do. I think that there have been enough allegations of misusing funds, allegations that money wasn't properly spent. So, yes, I think the IG, who has investigators and auditors, is the exact right place to go. I also think that the attorney general has the right plan. What was going to help the tenants of Park Southern is to have a responsible owner that has the money to make the needed investments in the building and the commitment that I have to keep the building affordable.

SHERWOODMr. Catania or Ms. Bowser -- I mean, Ms. Schwartz, do you want to comment? Briefly please.

CATANIAI'd like to comment. I'd like to comment. Ms. Bowser left one party out. She is good at bringing people at the table. She's good at bringing the contributors to the table and those who support her. The people that were not at the table were the tenants. Ms. Bower, according to the tenants, has been there one time and she went there for Joyce Scott to do a campaign event. But Chris Owens, who is the chair of the tenants' association, has extended invitations to Ms. Bowser since June.

BOWSEROn your behalf?

CATANIANo, on their behalf and you haven't -- and you haven't met with them. They've reached out to you...

BOWSERNo. What I told Mr. Owens is what I will tell you now.

NNAMDIWell, again, allow me...

BOWSERBut it's important...

NNAMDI...allow me to interrupt you, Ms. Bowser. So when he finishes, you will be able to respond.

BOWSERYes, of course. Of course.

CATANIAThe fact is Mr. Jones (word?) Jones, who was her Easton (sp?) River coordinator has, according to the attorney general, our U.S. attorney general, absconded with $300,000. Ms. Bowser, aware of the tenants' lawsuit, continued to accept contributions from Mr. Jones. Ms. Bowser met with and did organize or attempt to organize a meeting with her supporter Ms. Scott and Ms. Jones and the head of the government agency in an effort to try to get that building sold to her supporters for below market value. This is all public...

BOWSERThat's not true. I'm sorry. I can't permit...

NNAMDIOkay. Wait a minute. When he is finished you will be allowed to -- you will be allowed to respond.

BOWSER...I can't -- no, I'm sorry. Kojo, I cannot -- I cannot...

NNAMDII absolutely promise you that. But wait a minute. Allow Mr. Catania his last 25 seconds.

BOWSEROkay. Forty-five seconds?

NNAMDITwenty-five.

BOWSEROh, okay.

CATANIAWell, there is a way for us to get this all out in the open. You could have had a hearing as the mayor has requested, as many requested. You could have had a hearing in the council chamber, brought everyone to the table. Not just in your office, not just your contributors, and we could've had a fair and open conversation.

NNAMDIFifteen seconds.

CATANIABut there are the records that demonstrate exactly what I mentioned. You were trying to privilege your supporters to sell that building out at a below-market value and use your position to grease the wheels.

NNAMDIOkay. Ms. Bowser.

BOWSERWell, Mr. Catania's wrong again. What I requested was a meeting with the government and the people who were involved in the management of the building. Mr. Catania's also wrong, that I never tried to grease any wheels or privilege anybody. What I did was get to the facts of what was going on, to find out why the government gave them $3 million, why the government hadn't insisted on the monies being paid.

BOWSERAnd what I'm not going to do however is what Mr. Catania has done, is try to politicize the misfortune of these people, including going to their building to have a barbecue. Now Mr. Catania has been their councilmember for seventeen years. He should have been aware of the problems at Park Southern.

NNAMDIHow about the allegation that Mr. Catania makes that you failed to return the contributions to your campaign?

BOWSERI'm sorry, I didn't hear you, Kojo.

NNAMDIWhat about the allegations Mr. Catania makes about your failing to return the contributions of these individuals to your campaign?

BOWSERI don't see any reason to return contributions when the people who are -- these are accusations that have been made against them. And none of them have been founded. And so I will turn it over to the -- have turned it over to the inspector general. And anybody who is found to have done wrong against the tenants will be held accountable.

NNAMDIMs. Schwartz, do you want to comment on this mess?

SCHWARTZI would actually like to talk about how leaders have to lead by example. And...

NNAMDIThat's where we're going next actually, but go ahead.

SCHWARTZAnd that's what I wanted to talk about, the law that closed the loopholes. The council did pass because of the public outcry from the past and they did pass the law. And I know it was in the middle of the campaign but it could've stopped. The ones that were, you know, LLCs that weren't within -- that could have been done, you could just say, I'm not doing it in the future. From here on before it was legal. Now we pass the law. I think right is right. We can effectuate laws even before they become law.

SCHWARTZAnd I would've, if I had been in your shoes, stopped it right there and then led by example. And I do think that having passed the law and then both of you not abiding by the law you voted for, I think is not leading by example. And so I also want to talk -- I think I probably have a few more seconds left.

NNAMDIFifteen.

SCHWARTZFifteen more seconds. I think if there's too much going on in the council that you all served in where you raise the constituent service funds, they were $40,000, and some members tried to get me to raise it when I chaired the committee. I wouldn't. I said, $40,000 a year in $400 increments is enough. But instead when I left, right after leaving you all doubled them to 80,000. And then the big affix reform was to bring it back down to 40 where it had been before.

SCHWARTZI think that we just need to stop these kinds of shenanigans that make us in the city look bad and ruin our reputation. And also those kinds of things like...

NNAMDIYou're out of time.

SCHWARTZ...constituent service funds were used for out and out thievery by colleagues on the council.

NNAMDIWant to get to the leadership issue. Councilmember Bowser, you have not had a great deal of patience in recent interviews for people who have implied criticism about your legislative record, whether it's your chairmanship on the Economic Development Committee or in other areas. You have in turn criticized comments about your record as coming from hired guns from insiders. But for a lot of people looking back on what you've done is the easiest way to see what you would be all about as mayor. What would you say are the two biggest things from your experiences on the council that show people what indeed you would be all about as mayor?

BOWSERWell, I'm very proud of my record on the council. In fact, we have done what we've set out to do in the last seven years. I say frequently that I think the best training to be mayor in fact is to be a Ward councilmember where you're accountable to a discrete group of people to move an agenda month to month and year to year. And I'm very proud of my ability to lead in Ward 4 and proud that they -- the people of Ward 4 have re-elected me three times.

BOWSERI am also proud that we have, and as I mentioned earlier, made progress in all of the buckets of activity that I promised. When I go down to the council, I see my job thusly. I see it to make sure that I'm doing the oversight of the committee that I have responsibility for, that I'm working on the budgets to make sure that we're putting the resources where they need to be in my ward and across the city. And also that we are looking at the laws and passing laws that make sense for the residents of the District of Columbia.

BOWSERNow my approach is to look at the laws and figure out what's broken and what needs to be fixed. And that's exactly what I did when I chaired the Consumer Regulatory Affairs Committee. When people were being foreclosed on and we need to make our law help the people and make sure that they had those consumer protections. We also -- when I chaired the Government Operations Committee...

NNAMDIYou've got about 15 seconds.

BOWSER...you mentioned that we tackled ethics reform. And we got it right. What we've seen is that committee has had -- the new commission has had dozens of investigations and are holding people accountable every day.

NNAMDIPatrick Madden, you have any questions about leadership? I mean, about -- yes, about the issue of leadership that we're discussing? If not, just whatever question it is that you have.

SHERWOODOf course I do.

MADDENWell...

CATANIAMay we answer the same question about record?

NNAMDITom Sherwood, is that a question you wanted to pose to him about leadership?

SHERWOODWe have short answers on, get to my question.

NNAMDIOkay. Well, go ahead, Mr. Catania.

CATANIAIf I might. I'm very proud of...

NNAMDIGot the marching orders here.

CATANIA...I'm very proud of the record that I've accumulated over 17 years. You know, I believe I have the most progressive record on the dais of delivering for things that matter to people. I'm proud of the work that I did on smoke-free D.C., championing marriage equality, medical marijuana, cutting our rate of uninsured in half to the second lowest rate in the country. I'm proud of having funded the largest investment in the history of our city in at-risk youth. And as it relates to the people of the Park Southern, I'm very proud of the work that I did just down the street by engineering $100 million investment into United Medical Center which made it possible for high quality acute care to happen.

CATANIAI'm very proud of a record of running towards our city's challenges, not running away from them. And I was very proud, as a matter of fact yesterday, to receive an endorsement from one of the leading Democratic governors and one of the most progressive in the country, Pete Shumlin, who I've had the privilege of working with for more than a decade who has seen firsthand the work I've done tackling some of the most entrenched interests in the country, including pharmaceutical makers and others. And so I think records are important because they tell us what we care about and what we'll do, not simple platitudes but what we'll do.

NNAMDIAnd that governor said it was because of a personal relationship, even though he's head of the Democratic Governor's Association. But Muriel Bowser, you live in the same town as the President of the United States. Do you think you can get his endorsement?

BOWSERI welcome all endorsements. And I welcome tonight, for example, not a governor from someplace up north but two governors from this region. And what the next mayor has the opportunity to do, unlike past mayors, is really set our regional and national and global agenda. And it's going to take a mayor that can bring people together, work across lines and across borders to tackle some of the big issues that faced us.

BOWSERWhen we talk about homelessness, for example, we need to talk about it as a regional issue. When we talk about how we're going to grow our city, we know that we have to make huge investments in Metro. We know that violence doesn't stop at the borders and certainly traffic and congestion are issues that cross our borders. So I'm looking forward to working with leaders right here in our region.

NNAMDIYou're the Democratic nominee. Wouldn't you ask the president for his endorsement? He's a Democrat.

BOWSERAbsolutely. We will welcome the president's endorsement. But the president is from Chicago, so what's important for me is when we're out talking to neighbors on doorsteps and in grocery stores and in churches how they're going to vote, I was never prouder -- and some people will pooh-pooh the fact that I won a Democratic nomination where 42,000 people came out and asked for a fresh start in the mayor's office. But what they said to me then was that they trusted me and they knew that I would carry the principles that matter to them onto the general election.

NNAMDIDo have to move on. Tom Sherwood.

SCHWARTZWell, can I speak up?

NNAMDII thought you were going to respond to Tom's question, but okay, Carol Schwartz...

SHERWOODWell, can we move on to other subjects?

NNAMDILet Carol Schwartz...

SCHWARTZI just think that I really want to be endorsed by the people that actually live here and vote here. And I don't think it's so -- like I have senators and congress people who are friends of mine. I could go get their endorsements, but I don't want their endorsements. I mean, you know, I don't know why that's important. And, I mean, I congratulate you on yours, David, but I don't know why that's so important.

SCHWARTZAnd so -- and I hope, Muriel, even if the president would want to, I'd much rather have him spend some real time working on our full voting rights...

NNAMDIWe're getting to that in a second.

SCHWARTZ...than getting involved in, you know, endorsing one person over another. I think that citizens...

NNAMDIWe're getting to that very shortly.

SCHWARTZ...of our city are the endorsements I want.

NNAMDITom Sherwood.

SHERWOODWe have hundreds of churches in this city -- a very quick question before I get to the real question -- is none of you -- I looked at all your campaign bios, none of you express much about your religious affairs. How would you describe your religious beliefs?

SCHWARTZWell, I'm a member for over 40 years of the Washington Hebrew congregation.

SHERWOODAttending member?

SCHWARTZAttending member, and a paying member.

SHERWOODOkay. Thank you.

SCHWARTZAnd a paying member.

SHERWOODMr. Catania.

CATANIAI was raised in the Baptist Church. I am not presently a member of a church.

SHERWOODMs. Bowser.

BOWSERI'm Catholic and I attend St. Anthony's Catholic Church.

SHERWOODOkay. Here's the question I really wanted to ask. Marijuana's going to probably pass 60 something -- see how I pick these things together -- marijuana's going to pass, according to the polls. It's going to be up to the council and the mayor, not to plan something to do, but to affect how marijuana might be sold in this city.

SHERWOODMs. Bowser, if this passes, what will you do if you're elected mayor, even in the transition, would you do to get ready to have marijuana sold in the district, assuming you're -- I think you are, in fact, for the initiative?

BOWSERI will support the initiative and I will sign it into law. And I will make sure that we are being very careful about how we go about setting the regulations and the law, working with the councilmembers. One thing that concerns me about decriminalization was we were changing the standards for how marijuana could be possessed in the district to a civil fine instead of a criminal fine. But we hadn't changed the way that you could actually buy it. And so my concern was that we would in fact create this as a place where we still had corner sales. And that's the very troubling aspect of these changes. So...

SHERWOODYou would like to have retail stores at some point too?

BOWSERI think that's really the only way to go. And I would look to, you know, my initial thoughts so that we can regulate around how, you know, will you have a medical marijuana regime that is -- you know, people want to see it work better. There are other regimes for how we sell -- for other substances.

SHERWOODOkay. Let's get...

BOWSERSo that's how I'll look at it. But finally I would say I would make sure that we're looking at how -- what has gone right and what has gone wrong in other jurisdictions, tap into people who have that experience and make sure that we have it available here.

SHERWOODMr. Catania, we don't have much time to study it once this becomes legal -- it will be legal.

CATANIAWell, we have -- we've got a couple of very good road maps to follow, Colorado and Washington state. And I want to be an ambiguous. I encourage people to go out and support Initiative 71. I think anytime you -- you make something illegal, which you cannot stop the usage of, you create an underground economy and a black market, and violence follows. I think we should regulate marijuana just as we do alcohol. And we actually have a pretty good regime in place for an easy transition to legalization through our medical marijuana initiative, where we have dispensaries and where we have cultivation centers that I spent many years trying to perfect. So we actually have a template to follow. The important thing...

SHERWOODI'm sorry just because we're almost out of time.

CATANIABut let me just finish. We have to be -- we have to be careful about how we protect children, number one. We have to be careful what we do with the revenue, and we have to be very careful that we have clear rules for law enforcement.

SHERWOODMs. Schwartz, you are opposed to the referendum 71 -- Initiative 71. If it passes and you're the mayor, will you implement retail sales?

SCHWARTZWell, I -- I certainly was in favor of medical marijuana and help get it released from Congress so they could be implemented.

SHERWOODInitiative 71.

SCHWARTZDecriminalization, I am -- was very much in favor of because of the discrimination of who went to jail and who didn't.

SHERWOODInitiative 71.

SCHWARTZAnd Initiative 71, you've asked me five times and I've said the same answer, I am not in favor of it. I don't care what people…

SHERWOODWill you implement the law if you are elected?

SCHWARTZI do not care what people do in their own homes. What I do care about is the fact there's not enough study about it. The driving under the influence of it is worrisome in our densely populated city. I worry about our children and families that are -- that we have attracted here. And people in their backyard having the -- the fumes from marijuana. I think there's a lot to be concerned about.

SHERWOODWill you implement the law if it passes and you're mayor?

SCHWARTZI -- I will work with the council in deciding if we're going to implement the law. You know, my colleagues here say they're in favor of it, but meanwhile they sat on the council that hasn't legalized it.

NNAMDII wanted to move to the issue of voting rights. Mr. Catania, you have gone to New Hampshire and got the state legislature to approve statehood for the District of Columbia, it would appear that the strategy that you would like to pursue is a strategy for a constitutional amendment that 38 state legislatures would have to approve when, in fact, the Attorney General Eric Holder has ascertained that the District of Columbia can get statehood by a vote in Congress if there's a majority in the house and the Senate. Why have you undertaken what seems to be both an unnecessary and cumbersome procedure?

CATANIAKojo, I think Congress is broken. And it was on display recently when we went to see the hearing on the issue of statehood. Wouldn't it be nice if Congress did the right thing and they fully emancipated us and treated us like other Americans? That would be nice. But I think Congress is broken. So I've taken a different strategy in addition to that. I think we can do both. And I'm really proud that for the last 30 years, only two states have voted for voting rights.

CATANIAHawaii, and we're not sure why they did it, and New Hampshire through relationships that I made. Again through a National Legislative Association that I chaired. Ms. Bowser...

NNAMDIThirty six to go.

CATANIAWell, you know what, you start somewhere. All things worth having, you start somewhere because it's important that the message we send to our young people is that we're going to pick up and do our best. We go to Annapolis next and Richmond next and we do it. And we mobilize our folks to secure our rights. Look, if we can't get it through Congress, we have to take the other approach. I'm -- I'm really proud of the fact and some have belittled, for instance, the fact that I received an endorsement from a Vermont governor.

CATANIAThis is another governor who has pledged himself for voting rights support. And so by building relationships, some that people are talking about by serving on a National Legislative Chamber and chairing that organization for more than 10 years, I built these relationships to make it easier. So, you know, I also think we need a political action committee.

NNAMDIWe don't have a lot of time, 15 seconds.

CATANIAA political action committee to help defend our democracy when members of Congress from far off places attempt to undermine our democracy. A political action committee raised with private funds that could be then deployed to inform the residents of that particular congressman's jurisdiction of what they're doing against us and not for them. It's important.

NNAMDICouncilmember Bowser, there are those who say our local officials have not done enough to persuade Congress that we should have statehood in the Congress of the United States. He talked -- Councilmember Catania talked about relationships. The criticism is that we haven't been developing relationships with the senators in the -- in that body that we should be developing relations with. What have you done in that regard?

BOWSERI think that -- I think there are some truth to that. I think it's important, though, that we think about all of our federal issues and we talk about building those relationships. And I think it's important that the mayor has her own relationship on the Hill. Of course, I support our congresswoman and her shadow delegation, but I do think that the mayor should have every day presence on Capitol Hill.

BOWSERThe mayor has -- so we have a lot of federal issues, whether they'd be Metro funding or our federal lands, how we transfer lands like Walter Reed. And it -- all of those issues are easier when those relationships exist. I am pleased that I've been invited to and participated in a bipartisan of the District, Maryland and Virginia delegation on the Hill to begin those conversations.

NNAMDICouncilmember or former Councilmember Schwartz, you were a Republican for a very long time. You have a lot of relationships you mentioned earlier about friends. Have you approached Republicans? They are seen as the major obstacle at this point towards getting statehood through the Congress of the United States. Have you talked to Republicans in Congress?

SCHWARTZYes, I certainly did over the years and would continue to do so. I'm no longer a Republican. As you mentioned, I am an independent, but I think they'll know I was a former Republican as the rest of you all know. And so I think I could be helpful in that cause. I was helpful before in getting a few votes, Dick Lugar and Susan Collins, to vote for our voting rights. And I've -- it's an issue I've worked on for years. I went off to the convention in Philadelphia with a card and a button -- Let D.C. Vote, It's Only Fair.

SCHWARTZSpent a great deal of time passing that out, trying to get the party I used to belong to on board. Years ago, the Republican Party had been on board. I mean, it had supported it. Bob Dole, Richard Nixon, and then they abandoned it. And -- but I think it's right and just and it's an abomination we don't have it. Now I would -- don't happen to be a statehood per se supporter, I like the Voting Rights Amendment of 1977. I'd like to see that reactivated with some additions.

SCHWARTZThat would have given us full voting rights, two senators, a Congress person. In the way we're growing, maybe soon, two Congress people. But I would add to that legislation that I want to get out of Congress, budget autonomy and a legislative autonomy because that would keep us -- we could still keep our unique status of being the nation's capital instead of one of the smallest states. There wouldn't have the -- the jurisdiction all carved up because it would be the United States is going to take the monuments and the White House and all.

NNAMDIOkay.

SCHWARTZAnd they are going to keep the name Washington, D.C., we would become the state of New Columbia. I'd like the best of all worlds and the legislation that passed in 1977. It would have to go to the states to be ratified would do just that.

NNAMDIPatrick Madden.

MADDENJust on this issue of budget autonomy, it seems like Congress would be prepared to move on budget autonomy legislation. So as long as D.C. agree to a permanent ban on the use of local funds for abortion. So it's the issue of should D.C. agree to such a compromise that provided that private funds would be available to pay for abortions for women. Would this be a compromise you guys would be on board with?

CATANIANo. No. No.

SCHWARTZI -- no and...

NNAMDIThat was an appropriately brief answer.

MADDENCouncilmember Bowser?

BOWSERYes, when this issue was first added to one of our appropriations bills, a number of -- dozens of Washingtonians went to jail over it and I was one of them. And I can't tell you how opposed to that violation of our use of our own locally raised dollars that is.

NNAMDIAt the beginning of the year, a man died after he collapsed from a heart attack next to a fire station on Rhode Island Avenue. Bystanders who saw what happened apparently were turned away and told that a response couldn't go into motion until someone called 911. Two of the firefighters involved in this case were disciplined, no one was fire. The takeaway for a lot of people is that we are living in a city where you can have a heart attack in front of a building staffed with city emergency medical workers and no one will help.

NNAMDIWhat would you diagnose is the problems plaguing the emergency services department? And what would you propose doing as mayor to fix them, Councilmember Catania?

CATANIAThe fact that Mr. Murphy had a 60-hour suspension given the dereliction of duty tells you everything you need to know about how broken our bureaucracy is. We have not had a mayor, not one, who actually understood what it was like to build a quality organization but understood the tenets of how you build a great organization through how you recruit, how you educate and train, how you evaluate, promote and retain quality people.

CATANIAWhat we have in fire and EMS is a completely broken government, where we are at war with our workers because no one has taken the time to build a quality organization. I've been a part of an organization. I've been pleased to be a part of a multinational company. I was in charge of organization development for this company and I've been responsible for building a great design build firm.

CATANIANow, my opponents will tell you, well, you -- this was a city contractor and, of course, that's bad. I'll remind them, as I've said in the past, that this -- this was a contractor that had 2 percent of its contracts with the city of a nearly billion dollar company with 3,000 employees and 30 offices around the world, and I recuse myself from matters involving the company. The important thing is we're going to decide -- this is a job interview about who can run a =n $11 billion entity.

CATANIAI've been a senior official in a multinational company, 3,000 employees, 30 offices around the world and I've built great organizations. Unless we have a mayor who knows how to build organizations, we're going to continue to give people fire hoses and put out fires.

NNAMDIAllow me to interrupt. What -- I'm not sure I understand what that has to do with what you would do with...

CATANIAIt has everything to do...

NNAMDI...emergency medical services.

CATANIAKojo, it has -- it has everything to do with it because what you have are -- you have all the elements of a broken organization between fire and EMS.

NNAMDIRight.

CATANIAWe don't know who we're recruiting. We don't properly educate. We don't properly train. So often promotions are tethered to who you know and not what you know and we don't do the basic core decent things about retaining top quality people. If what you're looking for in answer is a one-off on how you fix this one particular issue, that leaves many of us unsatisfied because what we need is a bureaucracy where you don't happen to have to find the lucky GS-8 who may know what she or he is doing. But you build a bureaucracy around the notion of excellence and you hold it accountable.

NNAMDICarol Schwartz?

SCHWARTZI called many years ago and did it over and over again that we separate out EMS from the fire department. I mean, it makes no sense to me that somebody is having a heart attack and the fire truck arrives and all the -- are not trained to do it. And because you can be a good firefighter doesn't mean you can be a good medical person. And because you can be a good medical person doesn't mean you can climb ladders and you're not afraid of heights.

SCHWARTZIt just never made sense to me. And I think what happened in this situation was inhumane. I think the people should have been fired not just disciplined. And I think too much of that goes on in our government and there will be -- it's unconscionable what happened to that poor gentleman.

BOWSERKojo, to your point, I just wanted to say you asked how are you going to change and what kind of leaders do we need. And actually I think we need leaders with a good judgment. And I think what Mr. Catania just described as having worked for a D.C. government contractor for a short period of time, long period of time, doing whatever, we really don't know. What we know is this, M.C. Dean got a councilmember on their payroll.

BOWSERWhat we know is this, David Catania got a big fat paycheck. What did the residents of the District of Columbia really get? We get to ask ourselves questions and ask ourselves if our public officials are working for them or working for their D.C. contractor boss? We also know this, we know that while -- that the company that Mr. Catania works for is a huge company and they make a lot of money, that's true.

BOWSERBut they did have significant contract right here in the District of Columbia. That contract gets voted on, sometimes in budget, sometimes separated from budgets. We also know this, that they went for an even bigger contract. But the contract was awarded to them then taken away from them because it was so ridiculous. So when you're talking about leadership and building organizations, the first question you have to ask yourself is about judgment. Mr. Catania even himself...

NNAMDIWell, we're running out of time.

BOWSER...voted.

NNAMDIWe're running out of time very quickly.

BOWSEROkay, I got say this...

NNAMDIBut I really hope that at some point you'll respond to the question about the emergency medical services.

BOWSERI certainly will. But I had to respond to him. I had to, I'm sorry. But even he knows...

NNAMDIYou only have about 30 seconds left.

BOWSEREven he knew it was bad judgment because when he started running for mayor that's when he separated.

CATANIAMay I respond?

NNAMDIGo.

CATANIAMay I respond? I left because I made an arrangement with the chairman that if you were to give me these additional responsibilities, I would leave and dedicate myself fully. And so, that's true. Number two, the fact of the matter is, any suggestion of nefariousness, you know, this is a multinational company and I did receive a top secret security clearance from the National Industrial Security Program and underwent a thorough background investigation.

NNAMDIOkay.

CATANIAAnd I did major projects, from water projects in Panama to national security issues in Europe.

NNAMDIWe're running...

CATANIAThe fact of the matter is -- if I might, Kojo -- the fact of the matter is, management experience matters. You can better believe that if I'd picked up the phone and advanced my company's interests one bit, it would have been on the front page of the Washington Post. In 17 years, not one impropriety.

NNAMDIYou only have about a minute.

CATANIAI recuse myself from every matter involving the company, if I might, and did not...

SCHWARTZYou didn't vote on the budgets.

NNAMDIWe only have about a minute or so left.

SCHWARTZAnd those contracts were contained in the budgets.

NNAMDIAnd we know that Carol Schwartz would separate fire and EMS. That's the only answer we got. Your turn, Tom Sherwood.

SHERWOODAll right. This is a serious issue. You have to give me a short answer. People living with disabilities have waited years for transportation plans in the city that, at minimum, the disability parking meter would still -- would possibly work. They have not worked for years. When will there be accessible transportation for citizens living with disability?

NNAMDIAnd we literally have 50 seconds left.

SHERWOODWe just taped it.

BOWSERWell, I...

SHERWOODWhen you push so they can park in the city, go home, go to work, go to schools.

BOWSERYes, I will...

SHERWOODThank you.

BOWSER...push for fair parking for them and for everybody.

SHERWOODMr. Catania?

CATANIAThat's a twofer. We have too few cabs who can actually transport individuals with disabilities. But the one thing we can do, which is very simple, we can retrofit our Metro stations for people with disabilities.

SHERWOODWhat about parking meter?

CATANIAIncluding -- including Metro stops.

SHERWOODAnd parking meters?

CATANIAAbsolutely.

SHERWOODThey're out there but anyone can park at them.

SCHWARTZI would certainly make sure that the parking meters work and were available for people with disabilities.

NNAMDILadies and gentlemen, Carol Schwartz, David Catania, and Muriel Bowser. This has been a special joint broadcast from WAMU 88.5 News and "The Kojo Nnamdi Show." Thank you to all the candidates and to all of our studio audience who joined us at NPR. Thanks also to members of the WAMU staff and to our gracious hosts at NPR who helped make this event possible. Yorel Moon (sp?), Joe Hagan, Neil Tevault, Andy Heauther (sp?), Mike Beacon (sp?), Emily Dagger, Dennis Herndon, Isabel Lara, Justin Winn, Cara Philbin, Jared Jackson, Ian Fox and the NPR ambassador.

NNAMDIThanks to all of you for coming.