MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom NPR headquarters in Washington, D.C., welcome to WAMU 88.5's "D.C. Mayoral Candidate Forum," a presentation of WAMU 88.5 News and "The Kojo Nnamdi Show." I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIWe're conducting tonight's conversation from the epicenter of changes that have swept through this city during the past two decades. On one side of North Capital Street, the median income is $80,000 a year and rising. On the other side, it's less than half of that, as a matter of fact, it is 1/3 of that. Crain's are popping up in neighborhoods like this one, throughout the District, to the point where it seems an entirely new D.C. is being built, block by block, day by day.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIResidents have serious questions about whether this new city will be a place they can afford to live in, a place where they can have faith in the schools available to their kids and a place where they can trust the public officials who represent them. The mayoral candidates will be pondering those questions with tonight are Muriel Bowser, a democrat, good evening.

COUNCILMEMBER MURIEL BOWSERGood evening.

NNAMDIDavid Catania, an independent candidate. Good evening.

COUNCILMEMBER DAVID CATANIAGood evening, Kojo, good evening, everyone.

NNAMDIAnd Carol Schwartz, also an independent candidate, good evening.

MS. CAROL SCHWARTZThank you, hi, Kojo.

NNAMDIOur panelists, asking them questions are WAMU resident political analyst, NBC 4 reporter and Current Newspapers columnist and pervasive presence at all debates, Tom Sherwood.

NNAMDIAnd WAMU 88.5 reporter, Patrick Madden, who is going to ask the first question here in a moment. But, first, I'd like to spell out how we're going to be conducting this forum, both to the candidates and to the audience. We will not be keeping a clock on your responses but we'd like you to keep them as brief as possible. We also ask that you respect those asking you the questions and, of course, one another. Believe me, when I say, that I do not think that the person who speaks the most tonight will necessarily be considered the winner of this debate. And for members of the audience, just please be respectful. In that spirit, I hand over my full attention and my respect to Patrick Madden.

MR. PATRICK MADDENFirst question is for Councilmember Bowser. Many would say, we are having an affordable housing crisis here in D.C. Longtime residents are being displaced, new couples say it's impossible to afford a place to raise a family. Councilmember Bowser, since you've been head of the Housing and Economic Development Committee, what do you consider to be your signature achievement in addressing the affordable housing crisis and how would you gauge its success?

BOWSERWell, thank you for that question, Patrick. And I think your question, it leads to lots of questions and certainly lots of discussion, much of what Kojo led in our debate with. We are a city that is growing at a very rapid pace. We have a net increase of 1,000 new people every month in the District of Columbia. We're attracting new businesses and new restaurants in the like. And part of the pressures that has put on housing prices, especially in recent years, but we've seen this progression over the last 20 years, is very significant.

BOWSERSo I took the approach with our committee, the Committee on Economic Development, which is responsible for the Deputy Mayor's office, oversight over the Planning and Economic Development Office, as well as the agency's responsible for affordable housing in the District of Columbia. One of our first initiatives and is apropos that we're in this location, was to talk about the new communities initiative.

BOWSERInitiative started under Mayor Tony Williams, that would transform public housing communities across the District of Columbia. And what I found, when I took over that agency, was that -- when I took over that committee, about 18 months, a little over 18 months ago, was those projects weren't moving. I use my oversight role to bring the government to the table, get the questions answered, enforce them to make sure that we were relooking at new communities and telling the people the truth and getting those projects moving.

BOWSERSo I'm pleased, now, that we have a report that's identified some of the concerns and problems and identify ways to move forward. What's necessary and what the next mayor must do, in addition to talking about how we're going to create more affordable housing, preserve the units that we have, including public housing. New communities has to be top on our lists. I talk about it now, in this location, because we're very close to a new community site, the first one to open in that project, the second one I should say.

NNAMDIPatrick, you have a follow up?

MADDENWell, I guess, I would toss it to Councilmember Catania. How has the council addressed this issue and what do you think the role of, as mayor, what bold ideas would you bring to the table to address the affordable housing crisis?

CATANIAWell, first let me respond to what the council has done over the last year and a half. In the last year and half, there's a technical issue here, can we...

NNAMDII think we may have solved that problem.

CATANIAIs that better? Nope.

NNAMDIOh, were still hearing an echo from your microphone. In that case, what I'll do is go to a clip, which raises this issue as we fix the Councilmember's microphone here. Before this debate, we heard from Lucy Murphy through WAMU's public Insight network. She lives in Ward 1, she's a longtime resident whose concerned that many of those closest to her no longer have a place in the city. So, let's hear her question.

MS. LUCY MURPHYI am a third generation Washingtonian. I have lived in Washington, D.C. for 64 years and I am seeing whole neighborhoods disappear. Whole neighborhoods of people disappear. And these are my friends, my neighbors. And my question is, what will you do make D.C. a livable place for the longtime residents of D.C. who may work minimum wage jobs?

NNAMDIWell, Councilmember Catania, you may want to add that to your response, if your mic is not working, we'll try...

CATANIAIs this better?

NNAMDIYes, that's better.

CATANIAOkay. Well, thank you for that opportunity, Kojo.

MR. TOM SHERWOODThere's no mic, there's no mic.

NNAMDIOh, you're still not hearing?

SHERWOODNo...

CATANIAIs this one better? All right. Well, Ms. Schwartz and I will share tonight.

SCHWARTZYeah.

CATANIALet me say that, I think the council has been missing in action for the last two years, candidly, on housing. Ms. Bowser mentions the work on new communities but I think it's important to set the record straight. In the last 21 months, there's been precisely one hearing, it was last October, it was a roundtable discussion of new communities. And since then there's been no movement.

CATANIALet's be clear though about what the city hasn't done. The city hasn't spent nearly $110 million of available resources of last year. We failed to spend -- we received an allocation from the federal government of tax exempt bonds of 225 million. We were able only to spend about 145, so we left 80 million on the table.

CATANIAIn addition, and very importantly, we left, what are called, nine percent low income housing tax credits on the table. This is the second way in which the federal government supports low income housing. Last year, we left 41 percent of our available credits on the table. That amounts to $2.2 million, that may not seem like a lot, but each million dollars leverages $14, $15, $16 million.

CATANIASo you combined what we left on the table, with respect to tax exempt bonds and low income housing tax credits, and we left $110 million on the table in the midst of one of the worst affordable housing crisis in the country. Now, you'll hear from mothers who say, oh well, you know, we didn't lose the money, we simply pushed it forward, but it's important to know where the District fits in with the nation.

CATANIATwo years ago, we had the second highest rate of unexpended low income housing tax credits, we failed to spend 21 percent, last year it was 42 percent. Keep in mind that nearly 40 states in the country spend 99 percent. Where was the oversight? Where was the tenacity, where was bringing in DHCD, our housing authority and asking, where are we spending these dollars?

BOWSERKojo, do I think I could jump in because I do think it's important because Mr. Catania.

NNAMDIAllow Mr. Catania to finish his sentence.

BOWSEROh, I thought he was finished.

CATANIAMay I, may I finish my point, Kojo?

NNAMDIAs briefly as you can, please.

CATANIAAll right. And so we have a chairperson of the committee on housing who, in one year, has left over $110 million on the table. Now, when it does come to housing, I do give the chairperson credit. She will intercede on behalf of her friends and supports, as she did in Park Southern. But when it comes to the folks of Park Southern, who actually need their housing, Ms. Bowser has yet to accept their invitation which was extended in May, to meet with them.

NNAMDIOkay.

CATANIAAnd go further, one block...

NNAMDII, I don't want you to go any further right now. Let's hold on that point for a second because Muriel Bowser would like to respond but I would like to have Carol Schwartz. We'd like to hear your voice on this issue of how you would provide affordable housing in the city and then we'll go back to Ms. Bowser and then Tom Sherwood.

BOWSERWell, thank you, Kojo because...

NNAMDINo, no I was asking if Carol Schwartz could speak first, please.

BOWSEROh. But I, I was referenced a couple of times and I'd like to respond.

NNAMDIAnd you will be allowed to respond to that.

BOWSEROkay.

NNAMDICarol Schwartz.

SCHWARTZWell, one of the reasons I'm running is because of affordable housing. I too agree with the person who called in and I've seen too many people pushed out of the city because of the lack of affordable housing. And I think we can do a lot of really good things in that area. And I'm certainly ready, willing and able to do them. I put out a position paper on affordable housing. And so I would invite all of you to go to carol4dc.com and you can read the, the position paper.

SCHWARTZBut some of the things I talked about doing was, one, when you get developers to build affordable housing for you and you give them special waivers or special tax exemptions, and then they come up short, I think we should have fines, huge fines. In fact, such a big fine for every time they don't do it, that'll just be cheaper to put together the affordable housing.

NNAMDIWhy do you think we have lacked enforcement, why do you think we've lacked such enforcement in the past?

SCHWARTZI don't know. I've been gone from the council for five and a half years, and so there wasn't affordable housing crisis when I left in January of 2009. But because the city has become a boom town, groundwork which I helped lay in my years on the council, that has been forcing more and more people out as the prices have risen in our housing.

SCHWARTZAnd I think we also need far more rental affordable housing and I would give incentives for developers to put up rental property that can be affordable. I also want to bring back people that we've lost. You know, I want to bring back Ward 9, you all know who I'm talking about, don't you, in Ward 8? That's Prince George's...

NNAMDIYeah.

SCHWARTZ...County. I want to bring them back. So in my affordable housing position paper, I put a tax credit in for returning people, people that used to live here, that went out, some of them for affordable housing, some of them to educate their children but bring...

NNAMDIOkay.

SCHWARTZ...them back and give them a tax credit...

NNAMDILet...

SCHWARTZ...of course, they'd have to prove they lived here, they have to prove they left but then, and for a certain amount of time, but then bring them back.

NNAMDII'm gonna try to have to...

SCHWARTZAnd that would -- may I, just the last sentence. That would help us keep our glorious diversity, which is diminishing due to our lack of affordable housing.

NNAMDIMs. Bowser, you respond and I'm gonna remind our candidates to try to keep your responses brief. I'm gonna bring out the time clock, one minute for each response. Please go ahead.

BOWSERWell, thank you. And I wanted to respond to Mr. Catania's statement because he made it in our last debate and I -- it's really necessary to set the record straight. He's suggesting to you that the government failed to spend money. And that's just not accurate. You can check with the Department of Housing, a community development, our Housing Finance Agency and they will all tell you, it is true that the government is afforded -- or the city is afforded certain low income tax credits.

BOWSERAnd those developers, private developers, are using those credits every year. The quality -- the projects that apply and qualify are awarded all of those funds. So those monies are being used. The monies can be used over a three year period. And as we see, the development projects and housing projects, that's how long they take to mature, often times. We have seen many, many, many new affordable housing projects developed over, over the last two years, that have delivered in this time and that have started in this time and add through the pipeline.

BOWSEROur committee, Mr. Catania, took points to a hearing, every committee hearing that we have about the budget and oversight deals with affordable housing and deals with the new communities initiative. So that's how we...

NNAMDIYou've got about 10 seconds.

BOWSER...move forward. But what's important is that we also look to what the future looks like for affordable housing. And we know that I am committed to investing $100 million per year for affordable housing, that's for new units but also for the preservation of units.

NNAMDIYou're just about out of time. Tom Sherwood.

BOWSERBut I thought we didn't have a clock, Kojo.

SHERWOODOkay, thank you.

NNAMDII just instituted one.

BOWSERI mean, how could I be out of time if we don't have a clock?

NNAMDII just instituted one.

BOWSEROkay. All right, fair enough, it's your show.

SHERWOODGreat, I'm glad that I'm not the moderator tonight. All right. And you can't buy or rent a house if you don't have a job.

BOWSERCorrect.

SHERWOODDo we need a radical makeover of the city's Employment Services Department?

BOWSERYes.

SHERWOODThe -- well, no. We need a better moderator.

NNAMDIWell, that was a brief answer.

SHERWOODD.C. Fiscal Policy Institute says, 60,000 adults do not have a high school degree in this city, but only one in eight gets help from the city for literacy, for jobs. A new federal inspector general report, just out last month, says, The Department of Employment Services can't account for the jobs that they fund, they can't account whether they're maintained and they can't detect fraud, people are hurting, they need jobs, Mr. Catania, first.

CATANIAThank you, Tom. First, I'd like to respond to Ms. Bowser's last point.

NNAMDIAnd I am watching the clock.

CATANIAThe fact of the matter is, the District of Columbia has the worst expenditure rate in the country with respect to these dollars. The fact that you may or may not be able to push dollars off into the future, small consolation to people who need housing today, and the loss of $110 million last year is sufficient.

SHERWOODYeah.

CATANIAWith respect to the issue of jobs, look, this is a legacy...

SHERWOODSorry, The Department Employment of Services, particularly, it's a bureaucracy.

CATANIAWell, The Department of Employment Services, I've always -- they're often joked that, of the 600 or so jobs The Department of Employment Services created are for the people who work at The Department of Employment Services. But they haven't in fact invested in the kinds of meaningful job training where there are accountability regiments, where they're tied to actually performance contracts or people make sure they have employment.

CATANIABut, Tom, the issue is whether or not, you know, and how our pre-K through 12 education system for generations, how we failed our folks. And, I -- you know, at some point, you have to ask, what can The Department of Employment Services do when individuals are graduating at a 63 percent on time or where they are on the 4th or 5th grade reading level, where most jobs require at least and 8th grade education.

CATANIAThe Department of Employment Services would be well served by returning the private sector to the table and asking the private sector, how can we actually turn this around? Our Workforce Investment Council is dominated by nonprofits and government. And by looking at new types of incentives so that...

NNAMDITen seconds.

CATANIA...we can access employment and these include wage credits and refundable wage credits to make it possible for people to have jobs.

SHERWOODMore attention, Ms. Schwartz, you have a minute for this, just as a response.

SCHWARTZYes. Well, I was -- when I was on the Council, I used to direct money all the time through public works and the environment, wherever I found additional resources for adult education program, they used to have pretty good programs at the University of the District of Columbia. Now, I think, through our a community college, I'm running into the same problem.

NNAMDIWith the microphone? It looks like I'll have to...

MADDENMy mic has quite a lot of feedback as well.

SCHWARTZMaybe if I put it further away, is that a little better?

SHERWOODIt gives out, if you talk too long. No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALEIt's fine for air.

MADDENThe mics are censoring us.

SCHWARTZBut anyway -- oh, God.

NNAMDIWell, you're listening to WAMU 88.5's D.C. Mayoral Forum from NPR headquarters in Washington, D.C. The candidates we're speaking with are Muriel Bowser, David Catania and Carol Schwartz. We are clearly having some microphone problems at this point but try again, Ms. Schwartz.

SCHWARTZWell, so I do think that our adult illiteracy is something I want to tackle and I want to use our schools for adult literacy programs on evenings and weekends. So they'd be, like, community schools. I also think that, obviously, -- oh, better, Yes. That, obviously, The Department of Employment Services needs to be as good as it can be, and because we do have very special needs and unemployment, especially when you look at Ward 8, it is sad to see.

SCHWARTZAnd I think, that I agree with Mr. Catania, that it -- with education aspects, we gotta get our schools up to snuff, so that they can provide the kind of education that all of our people need in order to get jobs. But for the ones that already graduated, we didn't serve them well. We're gonna have to do a lot of catch-up work and I'm certainly willing to do it.

SHERWOODMs. Bowser, I'm talking about The Employment Services Department -- I can talk loud enough. I'm talking about The Department of Employment Services not addressing the needs right now, not waiting for people to go through one through 12, what would you do, as mayor, to put more job training on the table where people actually get jobs that they can hold?

BOWSERWell, I get frustrated with the conversation about job training and largely what we've found is that they're no checks in place to see if all that job training actually leads to jobs. In fact, the Fiscal Policy Institute estimated, one year, that we spend $100 million in job training across a lot of agencies, that didn't lead to any appreciable change.

BOWSERNow, I've been born and raised in this city, I know this town well and I didn't really tell you appreciate the disconnect that our communities in Ward 7 feel, from the rest of the city, until I really spent every day knocking on doors, talking to people and I would meet young people, door after door and corners and in grocery stores and what I realized then, is they, a lot of people will look at them and think they're checked out or disconnected.

BOWSERBut what people really want, those young people, they want to work, and they want a pathway there. My colleagues are right, our education system has failed them. And it is our obligation to help them get back on track. So this is what I suggest, I don’t think that we can treat all of our jobless the same. People have different needs. We have to triage their needs. And one idea that I have is to work with our contracting community, the people that work with the District government and say, you have a contract with us, we want you to help us employ our hardest to employ people, for the duration of your contract.

BOWSERAnd I'm willing to work with them to incentivize them to do it. The other thing, let me just add a couple of other ideas, is to create, in our government, a general services academy. We have a lot of jobs in government that become available. People who paint our walls and cut our grass and pick up our trash, and a lot of residents in the District of Columbia want those jobs. And that's what that academy would support. And lastly, Kojo, I'll say, that we need to look at our summer youth program and expand it to young people up to 24 years old.

MADDENYou brought up the issue of contracting and -- I'm sorry -- and this is sort of a -- the question about contracting in theory. But this issue has come out about the billion dollars that's been missing to local contractors. And so, the question I have is what do you consider more important when it comes to contracting? You're going to be the executive. Selecting contractors based on who can get the job done at the cheapest price, saving taxpayers' dollars or making sure that District companies, even if they are more expensive are being awarded contract, and thus keeping the money in D.C. Councilmember Schwartz? Can you hear?

SHERWOODWe'll start the fundraising in a moment.

CATANIAYou spend all the money on the building.

SCHWARTZI don't think yours works either.

BOWSERIt works. It's working, Carol.

SCHWARTZIt is?

CATANIAIt's working.

SCHWARTZIt is working. Okay. All right.

MALENo, no, no. You need to talk on both mics.

SCHWARTZOkay. All right, contracting is something I spent a great deal of time, procurement when I was on the council. I chaired the committee on government operation. So I wanted to ensure that we had competitive bids and not just, hey, buddy, come and get it. And then also wanted to ensure that the contractors lived up to what they were supposed to do. I think your question, Patrick, about what should we have in the way D.C. businesses, minority owned especially businesses or the lowest.

SCHWARTZI think a combination of both. And I think we have a system in place now where you give extra points for those that have -- are certified District businesses as well as having the minority participation. And so I think that's sort of taken care of. I do think a lot times, though, when contractors don't live up to what they're supposed to do like the First Source agreements, I along with Kwame Brown, co-introduced legislation when he chaired Economic Development and I chaired Government Operations and Employment Services.

SCHWARTZWe -- we put together legislation that would give fines to those who did not live up to their contract agreement of First Source, hiring D.C. residents. Unfortunately, that legislation is now in court by some of the businesses. And I hope we prevail in court, because I think that it really is helpful. When -- It takes care of that other issue that was raised before and that is jobs. If we have these contractors that employ our people, of course that helps in a lot of ways take care of some of the problems of our city.

NNAMDIMuriel Bowser, you lived in Pennsylvania for a while after you graduated from college. Why did you decide to come back to the District? And when did you move back to the city? How would you say the city changed in the time that you were gone?

BOWSERI went to college in Pittsburgh and I went to college in the early '90s when, of course, our city was very different. and I often say I grew up in a time when this was a very dangerous city. Our schools were spiraling out of control and we were broke. We were the butt of every late night joke and the Congress had taken us over. And so, that's -- that's when I went to Pittsburgh to go to school. Following college, I lived in Philadelphia for a couple of years.

BOWSERI worked in the private sector, worked in insurance for a couple of years. And I realized then that my true calling was public service and I decided to come back to the city. And I went to American University, where I studied public policy and got a masters degree. So from that time to now, I think that the city is vastly different. And I don't think any of us is nostalgic for those days -- those days gone by.

BOWSERWe enjoy the new development. We enjoy new restaurants. We enjoy safer streets and we certainly enjoy the improvements to services in our governments and the fact that our schools are moving in the right direction. What I hear, however, and what I feel myself is that there's still...

NNAMDIWe're back on the clock, 15 seconds.

BOWSER...great anxiety in the government about what that progress means for senior resident who wants to be able to age in place in their home, for a young family who wants to be able to buy a home, and for people who are struggling and working hard every day to get out of poverty and into the middle class.

NNAMDICouncilmember Catania, you came here for college and for law school. What was it about the city that made you decide to stay here?

CATANIAYou know, I came to Washington for the reason that so many people come to Washington, and that is because it provided me a safer place and a more hospitable place than the place that I came from. You know, coming -- many folks from the LGBT community, many African Americans for instance came from the South to Washington because it was a place that gave us equal opportunity. I feel in love with Washington.

CATANIAI felt at home in Washington immediately. And, you know, one of the reasons why I ran for office was because I was so profoundly grateful for the opportunities that I have here that I would not have had in Missouri. And I think we all owe a great debt -- I mean, words and all, we love our city. And that's one thing, I think, that unites the three candidates for mayor. And it is that love that has drawn me to make a decision to run. It's because while there are cranes in the air, there is problem in the streets. And it's something like this. For the last two years, our economy has shrunk. We are in the middle of a recession.

CATANIAOur two most important industries -- legal services and government are shrinking. Since sequestration, we've lost about 14,000 federal workers, 7 percent of our workforce. And we need a mayor who understands the private sector, who understands the internal strengths of our economy and how we're going to strengthen hospitality, health care, education and incentivize new economy companies so that the next generation who comes here seeking a better life, the next generation that comes here seeking opportunity has what we take for granted. I'm profoundly grateful to the citizens of this city for creating a safe place for us. And, you know, I intend to spend my entire life here.

NNAMDICarol Schwartz, your affection for the city is taken for granted because you have served the city in elected positions both on the school board and on the council. What made you decide to come back and run for office as mayor again?

SCHWARTZWell, I got concerned about what was happening with our city. You know, as you know, I didn't leave, Kojo, by choice. I wanted to remain on the council, but I gave sick leave to workers and the thing I'm very proud of, in fact, probably the thing I'm most proud of. But because of that, I was targeted in the primary in 2008. So I lost my seat and lost that election. And then I thought, well, I'm going to try a write-in campaign and see if I can hold on to it.

SCHWARTZAnd fortunately, 40,000-plus people wrote my name in if we had demanded a recount, but I wouldn't have the city spend that money. It was probably something like 50 to 60,000 people wrote my name in. But it would not have been enough to overcome the person who drew number one on the ballot, and that was Michael Brown. So the city got a real good trade off there.

NNAMDIYou didn't want to...

SCHWARTZMichael Brown is now serving the first month, I think, of his 39-month term in a prison. And -- but I was no longer in elected office. So I didn't leave by choice.

NNAMDIYou wanted...

SCHWARTZI tried to retire gracefully, but I found that my retirement skills were not as good as my working skills. And I also found that I missed being part of the workings of the city and was very concerned about seeing, as I mentioned before, our glorious...

NNAMDIFifteen seconds.

SCHWARTZ...diversity diminish and seeing people pushed out, not having enough affordable housing. I was also worried sick about the corruption that was going on in the city and I want to do something about all of the above.

NNAMDIHere's Tom Sherwood.

SHERWOODLet's stay on this subject for -- can you hear me?

NNAMDIYes, we can hear you.

SHERWOODOh, excellent. I can barely hear myself. Ms. Schwartz, as much as everyone knows, in your five tries for mayor, you would really like to be mayor. I don't think anyone doubts that. You would love -- you said you want to be mayor.

SCHWARTZIt's not new news, right?

SHERWOODThat is not new news. But there's also no doubt that you just alluded to the fact that you were defeated in 2008 and the man sitting to your right, David Catania, was -- helped that defeat by organizing opposition to you when you lost. The recent poll that you heard on the news just before we started is that -- and you're in third place, you've been in third place for all the polls -- that you may be hurting Muriel Bowser's chances to become mayor rather than Mr. Catania's. If you are not going to stay in third place, do you have choice for mayor if it's not going to be you?

SCHWARTZWell, I would write my name in. And...

SHERWOODThat's good. Is that your answer? We can move on.

SCHWARTZYes.

SHERWOODI know you don't want to talk about it. Mr. Catania, you helped defeat Ms. Schwartz. What do you think about the fact she got into the race?

CATANIAWell, I would just reject the characterization that I organized it. It's true, I did not support Ms. Schwartz. What's ironic is that 20 years ago this year I was actually, in 1994 when Ms. Schwartz ran the first time, I was very proud to support her and work for her. And then when I went to join the council in '97, I went to seek her support as a fellow party nominee. I wasn't able to accomplish that. And in '98 when I ran again, I asked for her support and didn't receive it.

SHERWOODOkay. May I follow-up on this? Because you were a Republican as Ms. Schwartz was. And 10 years ago, you left the party because the party -- the Republican Party was against LGBT issues and same-sex marriage. Had the Republican Party embraced LGBT issues and same-sex marriage, would you still be a Republican?

CATANIAWell, Tom, I think it was more issues than just that. I think that was the straw that broke the camel's back. You know, the Republican Party that existed when I grew up doesn't bear any resemblance to the party now, and certainly the same was true 10 years ago. I did what I had to do to be a good member of the party to try to raise money in order to get a seat at the table because that's the way it works in politics.

CATANIAI was able to try to get the Republican Party to engage in urban issues, to engage in issues of house, LGBT and others. But the fact of the matter is the party had just drifted so far, but it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

SHERWOODAll right, that's good.

SCHWARTZI would like...

SHERWOODI'm sorry, excuse me.

BOWSERTom, can I just add?

SHERWOODI'm -- I'm going to go to Ms. Bowser.

BOWSERThank you.

SHERWOODAsk you about the candidacies over here.

SCHWARTZI just -- I would...

SHERWOODI'm sorry, I'm speaking to Ms. Bowser.

BOWSERNo, I just wanted to add on, because we just heard that Mr. Catania didn't organize the race against Carol. Everybody knows that that's not true. He not only recruited the candidate, everybody who supported that candidate also supported him throughout all of his races. So it's obviously very clear. I frankly thought that the effort against Carol -- and I was proud to join her in the fight for safe and sick leave for residents across the District of Columbia.

BOWSERI was offended by the attacks against her because she stood up for people to have sick leave. When she lost her primary, I did something that I thought I might never do, and that was to support a Republican, frankly, to -- because I thought that she was the best person for the job and I endorsed her in her right...

NNAMDIWould you vote for Carol Schwartz for mayor?

BOWSERI would -- I would consider it if this was the -- if these were the choices.

NNAMDICarol Schwartz?

SCHWARTZYou know, talking about that is, you know, kind of a tough time in my life because it was so personal, the attacks. And, David, you did kind of even bragged about it once in the paper about, you know, and the Washington Post story did a little profile of you and you were actually, like, you know, I guess showing your power that you helped get me defeated. And so, I think it is well known that you were there and that you participated a great deal. And -- but also, you know, our relationship was not one way.

SCHWARTZWhen David left the party in 2000 -- well, actually even before he left the party. But when he was -- we were both delegates to the convention in 2000, and when they were not going to sit David and he was on a committee because he had been out criticizing the president that he helped raised $200,000 for. But I -- I resigned as delegate in sympathy for David. So our relationship was just not one way, David. I did not go to the convention that year. I resigned as a delegate out of sympathy.

CATANIAMay I respond?

NNAMDIOf course.

CATANIASo, I haven't -- I didn't raise $200,000, Ms. Schwartz. And...

BOWSERHow much did you raise?

CATANIAAbout 50 and I asked for it back, just so we're clear. You know, that was -- that was...

SCHWARTZWell, then give me my money back, because you raised some for me.

NNAMDIMr. Catania, please continue. I have to ask the audience...

SCHWARTZI had never given to a Republican president until you came and twisted my arm.

NNAMDI...restrain yourselves please.

CATANIAAnd so, may I? Ms. Schwartz, you may recall that when you ran for mayor in 2002 and you lost, you came back following that election and it read in your speech to resign. And it was Mr. Sherwood who stopped me in the hallway and told me that, did you hear that Carol was going to resign? I went to you, Carol. I went to Chairman Cropp and I went to Kathy Patterson who will confirm and Kevin Chavous.

CATANIAAnd we went to your office and we talked you out of resigning. And you were understandably upset. You've given so much to the city and you lost and you were going to resign. So you blame me for the fact that I didn't support you in '08. But by that time, there was quite a lot of, you know, water over the dam, so to speak.

NNAMDIWater under the bridge.

CATANIAOver the dam, under the bridge, however you want to put it. And so, but, Carol, you know, we're big boys and girls and this is politics. We're not entitled to anything. But I think you had six years more on the council that you might otherwise have had but for that opportunity. As far as, you know, the fact that I raised money for George Bush, you know, we coulda, woulda, shoulda. I did what I was supposed to do to try to raise money to get a voice at the table.

CATANIAAnd I did go to Crawford. You know what I did? I talked to him about LGBT issues, city issues and urban issues. My partner and I went to the belly of the beast to raise the flag when it was no longer possible. To think that we could have movement towards the center, towards reason, I left and people made fun of that and that's their right. But I don't think there's a person on this stage who's told the president of the United States what he can do to his party to his face. Turned his back on the money, the power and the prestige, I did that.

NNAMDIOkay.

CATANIAI did that because it was the right thing to do and I'd do it again.

NNAMDIOkay, we do have to move forward at this point.

SCHWARTZBut can I just -- one more thing if you would indulge me a minute.

NNAMDIWe're going to reflect on the past for another second?

SCHWARTZYeah, just another second. And that is, you know, from the time I announced -- the day I announced David's campaign said that I was just in it -- oh, I was like a put-up job by you, Muriel, and you were paying me off. And, by the way, I'm still waiting for my check. But I -- because I was running because out of vengeance or, you know, the spoil. I had a good break. I had a good break and I enjoyed my break.

SCHWARTZAnd even though I can't look upon David with great fondness anymore, because of the nasty personal attack that went on in 2008, I am not running having anything to do with you. And I want to say that to your face. I want to be mayor. I wanted to be mayor. I ran the first time when you were a teenager. You really had nothing to do with my running for mayor. You have nothing to do with my running for mayor now even though your ego may like to think that it does.

NNAMDIOkay, let's move on to you, Patrick Madden.

SCHWARTZAnd -- and so I just wanted to say that.

BOWSERKojo?

SCHWARTZI've heard it over and over in this campaign.

NNAMDIAllow us to move forward.

MADDENAnd I would drop the question.

NNAMDIInto the present and into the present. I knew that Tom Sherwood would start something.

BOWSERBut I have -- I have one more thing to add.

MADDENI'd like to move the discussion to ethics.

NNAMDIYes, please. Move on.

MADDENCouncilmember Bowser.

BOWSERYes.

MADDENYou voted to support campaign finance reform. And in this legislation, you closed a big loophole in the law that allows developers and other business people to basically exceed contribution limits through the use of the so-called LLCs. So this law was passed, but it didn't -- it doesn't kick in until next year. In the meantime, your mayoral campaign, along with several others, continued to raise money through this loophole. What example do you think this sets as someone hoping to become this city's next mayor?

BOWSERWell, thank you for that question. I think it's important. And you know that I -- I supported the legislation and I supported other legislation that would make our campaign finance rules and regulations more transparent, require greater disclosure, more penalties for people who break the rules and, more importantly, gave the Office of Campaign Finance for the first time in I don't know how long more money. A million dollars more money came out of our committee so that they could hire investigators and auditors.

BOWSERThe law that you talked about was actually passed in the middle of my mayoral campaign. I got started 18 months ago last March 2013. The law was passed sometime in the middle of our campaign. And the reason that the date was set that way is because the -- all of the councilmembers believe that you couldn't change the rules in the middle of the game. And so, we had been raising money -- I don't remember the exact date that it passed, but we had been in the campaign for some months and had been raising money for some months.

MADDENBut why continue doing it if you thought that perhaps it wasn't right?

BOWSERWell, it is according to the law, so it's not wrong. And the law changes. And when the law changes, we'll be completely compliant with it. And to be honest with you, we were also in a campaign with other campaigns that were following that ethic. And so, I intend to be fully compliant with the law when it changes.

NNAMDIPrior to the debate, we heard from Sahar Shafgat, a Ward 1 voter who said that while she is a D.C. United fan, she's got deep concerns about the proposal to pave the way for a new soccer stadium at Buzzard Point. Here's what she had to say.

MS. SAHAR SHAFGATI'm a huge fan of D.C. United, and I love the team, but I'm really deeply concerned about this deal because I am concerned about using public funds for helping a private business. I'm also concerned that the addition of even more condos on U Street will help drive up the cost of housing in our city. I think that the stadium deal, as I understand it, is a really bad deal for D.C., for the residents of D.C., for our fantastic city, and I am looking for a candidate who pledges to oppose this deal. This is the only issue I'm voting on.

NNAMDICouncilmember Catania, are you the candidate that Sahar's looking for?

CATANIAI don't believe I am. I'm looking to have a fair deal, a deal where the city is willing to put up the infrastructure dollars and the land in exchange for the owners funding the stadium itself. I'm not in favor of the land swap with the Akridge company for the Reeve Center. That's a subject for another day. If we're going to build a stadium, I'd like to see us build it and make a success out of it, and that means a transportation plan and a housing plan that accompanies it.

CATANIAI think I would support this, a slightly different deal than the deal than the deal that we were offered with Major League Baseball, where it was a $700 million deal where the city paid everything, and Major League Baseball paid nothing. And, you know, I couldn't support that deal. I didn't think it was a self-respecting deal. But this one, I can support.

NNAMDICarol Schwartz, what would you say about Sahara's concerns, and what do you feel is at stake with this stadium proposal and whether it moves forward?

SCHWARTZWell, I also think this deal, because it does have the team building their own stadium, is not a bad one for the city, even though we have to do all the infrastructure things and all. But I don't like the land swap part of the deal at all. I think to give Akridge, for a sliver of land in deserted Buzzard Point, give that company, they would, we would give then $21 million, and then we would let them have the Reeve Center, in the middle of our booming corridor of 14th and U, we would give them that land for $55.5 million, which according to our former CFO Nat Gandhi was valued at $185 million several years ago. That's a raw deal, and I would not participate in that at all.

NNAMDICouncilmember Bowser, what are you going to do to get Sahara's vote?

BOWSERWell, let me tell her this, that I am, we are a world-class city, and soccer is the world's game. And we need to do what we, everything that we need to do to make sure that we have soccer in the District of Columbia. I share the concerns that my colleagues have mentioned about making sure we have a fair deal, and we're going to work very hard to get one.

BOWSERI think what's important is we heard mention, the National Stadium, and there all of the back and forth that went to getting to a deal at National Stadium. And tomorrow we get to see our Nationals go and play a very important game, and we're all going to be rooting for them. What I'm struck by, now you know I grew up here, so I didn't grow up with baseball because we didn't have a baseball team for my whole life.

BOWSERMy father, on the other hand, is a baseball fanatic because he did have baseball. And I know, just looking in my own family, the impact of baseball leaving the city and not having that as a pastime has meant to young people all across the city.

NNAMDISo that makes you want to bring soccer...

BOWSERWhat I'm saying is this, the investment in baseball has made a difference in the city for our civic pride but also in real dollars. I think the estimate is that it is spinning off a billion dollars from jobs and spending and new residents that have spurred the area.

NNAMDIYou only have about 10 seconds.

BOWSERYes, so I'll just say this, as I started. I want to be the mayor that is going to continue to grow the city and add the things that makes us a world class place for visitors, for our residents, for people all around the world to visit.

NNAMDIGood luck with Sahar. Tom Sherwood?

SHERWOODLet's follow that up because Jack Evans, the chairman of the revenue, Financial Revenue Committee, who's been, participated in the deals with the convention center, the Verizon Center, the, all these different places, the baseball stadium, says that the deal with the Reeve Center is the deal and that their land in Southwest Washington might be worth, Akridge land, might be worth $40 million.

SHERWOODHe says but the deal is where you support the deal as it now stands, you've held two public hearings, I think you've got a draft, I don't know if you have the draft report yet that's out. Will support it if the deal is as it is now, with the exchange for the Reeve Center?

BOWSERI am waiting for our consultant. Now the mayor and the property owners and developer have had months, many months, I think almost two years they've talked about this deal. I thought it was important before I weighed into any decision and made any recommendations to the fellow members of the council that the council have its own review. And so we hired a firm, this expert in stadia development, to not only look at the financials of the team but the appraisals that have been done and work with the CFO to see if those appraisals are actually accurate.

SHERWOODBut the fact of the matter is that firm, $200,000 firm, is a month behind. It was supposed to have the report on September 15. It now says it will have it maybe on October 15.

BOWSERWell, I think it was...

SHERWOODWe may have an election before we know your view.

BOWSERWell, we're not going to have a vote on the soccer stadium until we have all the information.

SHERWOODBut we'll have an election.

BOWSERNo matter how long it takes.

NNAMDIOkay, let's keep talking development. This auditorium is right down the street from the site of a controversial plan to develop the McMillan Sand Filtration Site into condos, mixed-use retail and, yes, green space. A lot of the people who live here feel they were not given a chance to have much of a say on the matter. As a matter of fact, they call into our show about it. They've even interrupted shows about beer brewing to talk about it.

BOWSERBeer brewing?

NNAMDIYes. What would you say to those people who feel developers have a death grip on conversations about the future of city neighborhoods, and what do you think can be learned about the plans moving forward at McMillan, Carol Schwartz?

SCHWARTZWell I haven't, you know, been here for five and a half years. So I don't know all the ins and outs, to be honest with you, about the McMillan plan. I do think, though, I've been, as you know, an environmentalist for a long time and started the Department of the Environment, did the strongest tree law in the country to protect our tree canopy. And so I, if it were going to be all just mixed-use development and not having green space, I would be totally against it.

BOWSERBut the fact they're doing a combination of things, and I know there's a mixture of feelings in the neighborhood because I've had both sides contact me, but I, I really wouldn't feel that I'm adequately prepared to weigh in on that one issue today.

NNAMDIMr. Catania, you are reputed to have an eye for detail. There is nothing but detail in this plan right here. What is your view?

CATANIAWell, I think there is some exciting elements in the plan, and it's regrettable that the way it was handled pit one part of the community against another. And I think that is so often the case with development in our city, and it is regrettable. The fact of the matter is, I am excited about the notion of having Children's National Medical Center have additional office space. The size of that building is certainly, too, at issue, and I think the proposal is to take another floor off of it.

CATANIABut I go back to what I said earlier about how we're going to grow our economy and what our fundamental strengths are. Eight of our 16 largest employers are our hospitals. We have a fundamental strength, from the economic perspective, in health care. So growing that capability, having additional space is important. Now I understand entirely what the neighbors at McMillan are concerned about. They're concerned about an inadequate transportation plan. They're concerned about the absence of the green space, which they, which is so obvious to the improvement of the community and our livelihood and well-being. But mostly I think they're offended at not being consulted and not truly being incorporated as partners.

NNAMDIHow would you change that?

CATANIAWhat we do very often in this city, when it comes to economic development, we do the deals. We pick the winners. And then we discuss price. And this is a perfect example. We pick the winner. We pick the trio that's going to develop it before we discussed what we're getting, before we had community input. And so you have fair accompli imposed on communities, and they're entirely unempowered. Why are citizens...

NNAMDISo you feel there are too, there's too much power in the hands of the developers rather than the community?

CATANIAI think there's, look, there's entirely too much power in the hands of developers, number one. Number two, if I might, the way in which we pick winners in this city is obnoxious. We need to have open, transparent solicitations where people compete fairly, not these subjective determinations that you win, or you win. It leaves the impression that we are not open and honest and transparent.

NNAMDIOkay.

CATANIAWe need to improve the way in which we dispose of property, and we need to incorporate the communities affected.

NNAMDIMs. Bowser, we only have about three minutes left in this hour. You have about a minute of that.

BOWSERWell, to your point, Kojo, I do think that there are better ways to redevelop large parcels like McMillan. And I'll say this, I've watched McMillan in that state for just about my entire life, and it needs to be redeveloped, and it needs to be developed in a smart way and in a neighborhood-sensitive way. I think that the experience that we had at Walter Reed is instructive for how we can develop other large neighborhood parcels.

BOWSERWe had a BRAC, and the BRAC required a certain community development process that lasted about 18 months. But at the end of the day, there was wide neighborhood consensus. We were able to get the reuse plan passed unanimously through the council, and people are excited to have a job center, to have recreation space, to have affordable housing and retail. And the same can...

NNAMDIIf you're elected, will you revisit this whole plan?

BOWSERThe McMillan plan? What I'm concerned about at McMillan is making sure that the affordable housing goals that we've set are met. When this plan first was coming to the council, and I had an oversight hearing on it, had relatively few affordable housing units. What I assisted on and made it very clear to developers that before it came back, they had to add back a senior housing building that was taken away.

BOWSERThey had to have a plan for the open space that will be up to six acres, and they had to make sure that the buildings were set aside, so they weren't encroaching on our view shed of the Capitol and be in keeping with the other commercial buildings across Michigan Avenue.

NNAMDIYou should know that during the next hour, we'll be talking about education, homelessness and other issues. That's in Hour Two of this broadcast. We only have about two minutes left in this hour. Tom Sherwood, the challenge for you is to ask a question briefly and elicit a brief answer in that period of time.

SHERWOODOkay, this is October. What, as a child, was your favorite costume for Halloween? Ms. Bowser?

BOWSERWonder Woman.

SHERWOODWonder Woman. They didn't know this was, Mr. Catania?

CATANIAWonder Woman.

SCHWARTZAnd I actually was going to say the same thing, Wonder Woman.

SHERWOODMr. Kojo Nnamdi?

NNAMDII grew up in a country in which Halloween was not celebrated. So I had no favorite costume as a child.

SHERWOODPatrick Madden?

MADDENI have to go with Superman.

SHERWOODWe were always hobos because we didn't have to buy any costumes, because we were poor.

NNAMDIYou do have a minute left. You can ask another question.

SHERWOODOh no. All right, who can name the three rating agencies for the city, where the city's bond ratings have gone up? Who can name the three rating agencies? I'll get your notes.

SCHWARTZMoody's, Standard & Poor's and Fitch.

BOWSERStandard & Poor's.

SHERWOODEveryone gets this, since Adrian Finkey (sp?) didn't get it. All right. Have we eaten the time?

NNAMDIYou are eating the time up, but you're not eating the time up enough. We're, we still have about 30 seconds more for you to ask another question. Or Patrick Madden, if you have 30 seconds.

SHERWOODI may have a silly question.

MADDENI don't.

NNAMDIIt doesn't have to be silly in order for the question to be brief. Ladies and gentlemen, you should know that you are listening to WAMU 88.5's D.C. Mayoral Forum from NPR Headquarters in Washington, D.C. The candidates we are speaking with are Muriel Bowser, she's a member of the D.C. Council who represented Ward 4, she's the Democratic nominee mayor, David Catania, he's a member of the council who holds an at large seat. He's an independent candidate for mayor. And Carol Schwartz, she's a former member of the D.C. Council who held an at large seat. She's an independent candidate for mayor.

NNAMDIWe'll be coming back in another hour, but for the time being, let's hear it for all our candidates.