MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, schools adapt to rapid growth in the suburbs. New Loudoun County school superintendent Eric Williams joins us to discuss the issues facing one of the area's top districts.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIBut first, D.C. moved this week to address two simmering policy issues involving public safety and Civil Rights. Yesterday the D.C. Council voted on an emergency bill to allow concealed carry of handguns in the District, after a federal judge struck down the local ban on guns, this summer. Questions linger though over how D.C. will go from having some of the strictest gun laws in the nation, to allow firearms to be carried in public.

MR. KOJO NNAMDID.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier also announced this morning, District police will start wearing body cameras. Law enforcement hopes the cameras will improve the relationship between police and the public. What do you think? Give us a call, 800-433-8850. Do you think being recorded by the police officer will make you feel safer? You can also send email to kojo@wamu.org. What do you think about the emergency bill to allow concealed carry of handguns? Is there a way to allow guns in public in the District of Columbia safely?

MR. KOJO NNAMDIYou can also shoot us a tweet @kojoshow or go to our website kojoshow.org and join the conversation there. Joining me in studio now is Martin Austermuhle. He's a producer and reporter with WAMU 88.5 News. Martin, thank you for joining us.

MR. MARTIN AUSTERMUHLEThanks for having me.

NNAMDIYou just returned from that press conference on the new body cameras for D.C. police. What did we learn about their implementation and why police will be using them?

AUSTERMUHLESo starting next week and for the next six months, about 160 officers across the city are going to be testing out five different types of body warn cameras. There's gonna be cameras that they wear, kind of, in the middle of their chest. There's one model that is mounted on some sunglasses. But the idea is, for the next six months, to figure out what the officers like best and use them to try to improve officer safety, they say, improve interactions with the public.

AUSTERMUHLEAnd the biggest thing that they say, is that this will help resolve the issue of citizen complaints with the police officers because Chief Cathy Lanier says that, right now, it's mostly a he-said, she-said situation. A citizen complains, the officer defends them self and the police department has to figure out which one they think is telling the truth. And these cameras are gonna record those interactions, so then it's gonna take much of the investigating out of it.

NNAMDII was about to ask, when will they start rolling them out? I'm assuming they started rolling them out today because you're wearing a tie and I assume that's because you wanted to present yourself in the event that -- present yourself respectably in the event that a police officer stopped you.

AUSTERMUHLEWell, we were hoping that they would arrest one of us, so we could get the video of us being arrested to see what it looks like. But...

NNAMDIDidn't happen.

AUSTERMUHLE...they didn't play along. No. It's gonna start on October 1, which is the start of the Districts fiscal year, and this money was set aside, it's about a million dollars for the 250 cameras that they ended up getting. And like I said, police officers are gonna test out all the different varieties that they have.

NNAMDIStarting October 1, which is like next Wednesday.

AUSTERMUHLEIt is.

NNAMDIThey'll be starting to wear them.

AUSTERMUHLEIndeed.

NNAMDIHow many officers, about 250 of them?

AUSTERMUHLEA 160 officers and 250 individual cameras. And they also paid for storage capacity and things like that, that you have to have on the backend.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is the number to call to give your opinion about how you feel about police body cameras. One of the concerns around these cameras is when and how they are recording. If thousands of officers are recording 24 hours a day, that's a tremendous amount of footage to store, at the same time, if officers are able to turn them on and off whenever they feel like it, it raises the issue of trust. How will the city handle when the cameras are active?

AUSTERMUHLEWell, the rules set out for the cameras state that, once an officer receives a call and is dispatched to a scene, that's when they turn on the camera. They go through their, you know, the investigation that they have to do and once they clear their scene, that's when the camera gets turned off. There are exceptions, Chief Lanier said that, situations where you'd expect privacy, like a locker room or a restroom, there -- a camera can be turned off.

AUSTERMUHLEBut there is the issue that, it's ultimately up to the police officer to turn on the camera. Now, she said that, if they notice that a police officer is regularly not turning on a camera, when they go to work on a scene, that's a bit of a hint that something might be going wrong and it could be reprimanded for not doing so. The other issues, of course, what to do with all this footage? The first question that the media asked was, well, will we get access to this if we file a Freedom of Information request, could we get video?

AUSTERMUHLEAnd she said that, their practice is to -- will be to destroy the footage, after 90 days, if it's not part of any investigation. But they will try to honor Freedom of Information requests with the caveat that they don't know how they're going to handle it yet, 'cause it's gonna require redacting video and there's gonna be a ton of video, like you mentioned.

NNAMDIAnd they -- and as a matter of fact, that's what, I think, George, in Springfield, Va., would like to talk about. George, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

GEORGEYes, I work in video production, that's exactly what I was gonna say about, what are you going to do with all this footage and who's gonna do the content management? And, you know, if you notice now, you can buy a one terabyte drive, the size of your wallet, for $120, so it's getting cheaper and easier. You can buy a 12GB thumb drive, but that means that you can also lose your lifetime of photos in one swoop. Are they gonna have redundant backup and content management?

AUSTERMUHLEThose are all very good technical questions that I'll make sure to follow up on. We were just barraged with information at this press conference. They did mention that the vendors not only sell the cameras but they sell storage solutions. So I'm assuming there would be some redundancy, I would hope so, if not, you know, the police department losing a ton of video, just because they forgot to backup their hard drives, would be a problem.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, George. I guess that's one of the things that they're still looking at and will be looking at as they roll this out. The body camera issue has gotten a lot more attention following the events in Ferguson, Mo., last month where a police officer shot an unarmed teenager. A lot of people thought, had there been a camera there to record the incident, there would be no debate what happened. Is D.C. responding to those events?

AUSTERMUHLENo. Both Mayor Vincent Gray and Chief Lanier said that, while the situation in Ferguson certainly highlighted the need for body cameras, this is something they've discussed for, they say, about 18 months. It's been in the works, they've just been researching the different types of models. So it's not like the Ferguson situation motivated the decision or sped it up. It just -- it coincidentally happened around the time that they were debating it anyhow.

NNAMDIIn terms of scale, in terms of timeline, how many cameras are we talking about, over how long a period of time and how much will they all cost?

AUSTERMUHLEThose are all interesting questions. So, like I said, they're gonna have the six month pilot program, 250 cameras, 160 officers or so, and then if it looks like one camera style really wins out because the officers say, it's easiest to work with, it's the most comfortable, than the city will eventually buy those and roll them out to the entire department, over the course of two or three years.

AUSTERMUHLEThere's not a price tag on it yet. But, you know, they said it's about -- it was a million dollars to get the 250 cameras, so I guess, you could start doing some math and say, well, there's close to 4,000 sworn officers. So it won't be cheap, necessarily but, I think, the assumption is, you know, this technology will make their jobs easier, it will allow them to reduce staffing in, like, internal affairs, which they say is a problem 'cause it handles so many kind of -- handles complaints. So, you know, there might be some costs, kind of, equalization there, but I'm not sure.

NNAMDIWe're talking with Martin Austermuhle. He's a producer/reporter with WAMU 88.5 News and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. Of note, certainly for me in this incident or in this instance, is that there seems to be a rare agreement between the police chief and the police union. They don't seem to agree about a great deal but they seem to agree about the body cameras.

AUSTERMUHLEThey do, the chief of the union was there today and praised the chief for rolling out the program, said, they absolutely back it a 100 percent. And this is only two days after, I think, it was Fox 5 had this long investigative piece on how, you know, Chief Lanier was just shut off to the media, wasn't responding to media requests and just wasn't working well with the union and things like that.

AUSTERMUHLEAnd there's historically been some friction there between the union and Chief Lanier but this is one where they showed up together and they said exactly the same thing.

NNAMDIThat's footage they should hold onto...

AUSTERMUHLEYeah.

NNAMDI...for a long time. Let's move to the new developments in concealed carry. For a lot of people in the District, the words concealed carry almost sound foreign. D.C.'s gun laws have been some of the strictest in the country for decades. How did we get here?

AUSTERMUHLEWe got here because, in late July, a federal judge ruled on a, I think, it was a five-year-old case that had been sitting in federal court, that basically, five -- no, it was about three, three D.C. residents, one Maryland resident and a Washington state based advocacy group had filed suit against the city for its ban on carrying guns outside the home. They said it was unconstitutional. So the federal judge, in July, on a Saturday in July no less, came down and said, absolutely, this is unconstitutional...

NNAMDICame down from New York.

AUSTERMUHLEYeah. It came down from New York, is a Buffalo based judge. He said, not only is this unconstitutional, but I'm stopping the police from enforcing existing carry laws. So for about two days there, there was absolute open and concealed carry in D.C. Now, the ruling was eventually stayed but that put the city in a tough position. They are currently debating whether they actually want to appeal the ruling, but in the process, they have to set up some licensing mechanism for fear that, when this stay expires in October, that it could be basically open carry and concealed carry by just about anybody.

NNAMDIYesterday, the D.C. Council passed an emergency bill to allow concealed carry of handguns in the District, responding to that court decision this summer. What exactly does this bill say?

AUSTERMUHLESo the say -- the bill does say that by late October, District residents will be able to apply for concealed carry licenses. Now, there's gonna be a ton of conditions. You have to be 21 years old, you can be a resident or a non-resident. You have to go through 18 hours of training, 16 hours in the classroom, two on the range. You have to prove to the Chief of Police that you're facing a very personal threat and she -- and city officials have said, that living in a high crime neighborhood will not get you a gun, a conceal carry license.

AUSTERMUHLEBut if you say, have a stalker that would potentially qualify you. And even then, you get a gun, you're very limited in where you can take it. You're not gonna be able to take it to schools, into government buildings, bars and restaurants are off limits, so are stadiums and arenas. You can imagine, most of federal Washington, D.C. won't allow you with a gun. You're not gonna be allowed around the White House and not within a 1,000 feet of U.S. or foreign dignitaries, as they move through the city.

NNAMDIWell, a lot of people consider that jumping through too many hoops.

AUSTERMUHLEYeah.

NNAMDIHow are the gun rights activists who argued this case in court reacting to this bill?

AUSTERMUHLEThey say it's gonna end up in court again. They say, they're probably gonna file suit because they say, it's too restrictive. They're -- some of the gun owners I've spoken to say, look, they're fine with training requirements. They understand that it's probably good to make sure that someone who has a concealed carry license knows how to use a gun, if they ever have to use a gun. They admit that registration is fine and that it's been backed up in court.

AUSTERMUHLENow, they start differing on the issue of proving to the chief that you should get a gun, this is called a may issue scheme instead of a shell issue, Maryland also does this. Maryland has been sustained in court, so D.C. says, well, if Maryland did it, we can do it too. Now, the gun owners and the gun advocates say, that's fine and good but you set up a scheme that is so restrictive that you're basically not gonna let anybody get guns.

NNAMDIWith the bill passed, there are still some things up in the air because it's emergency legislation, it will expire...

AUSTERMUHLEYeah.

NNAMDI...after 90 days. And D.C. is still appealing the court decision that forced the bill in the first place, what's next?

AUSTERMUHLEWell, this is the best part, is that this is a 90 day emergency bill, so it will eventually expire. There is a permanent measure that will be debated in late October or early November and will likely be passed. But the city, right now, all it asks is for the judge to reconsider his decision. And in October, he'll actually have a hearing on that motion. They've also asked him to extend the stay, which he's also gonna consider. But they haven't said yet that they're actually going to appeal the decision.

AUSTERMUHLESo right now, there's a lot of legal, kind of, wrangling between both sides. Some of it's strategics, some of it actually -- you know, there's some legal reason behind. But it, you know, the next couple of months are, kind of, up in the air in terms of concealed carry and at some point, someone, will get a license but there's nothing saying that three months later, you know, the city could get its appeal and could win and then could say, well, we're yanking all your licenses.1

NNAMDIWe got a tweet from Dave, who says, "If anyone thinks there aren't guns in public already, they're not paying attention to the news. Now, law abiding citizens can have guns too." Martin, what's the state of legally registered guns in the District?

AUSTERMUHLESo since Heller, about 3,000 handguns were registered. And we were able to get the -- a really cool -- some cool information from the police department, they wouldn’t give us addresses, of course, and we didn't ask, of registered permit hold -- gun holders, but we did get the registrations by zip code and we have that on our website.

AUSTERMUHLESo there's about 3,000 of those and there's also about, the police estimate, there were about 3,000 other people who had guns registered before the 1976 ban on handguns went into effect. So they estimate about 6,000 people in D.C. have handguns.

NNAMDISo if people want to know details, they can go to wamu.org?

AUSTERMUHLEThey can.

NNAMDIOnto the telephones, here is Mohammad in Washington, D.C. Mohammad, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MOHAMMADHey, Kojo, hey guys. Just want to point out a comment, that I've grown up in Jordan and almost, I remember, that every household had guns, even machine guns, AK-47's and we did not have any murder rate whatsoever. It is the law that -- the enforcement of law is really what determines the murder rate, it's not the guns. That's it, thank you.

NNAMDIA couple of questions. In Jordan, are people allowed to carry those guns on the street?

MOHAMMADWell, when I was growing up -- I haven't been there for a while -- but, yes. They were carrying it. My uncles had it. My father even had a gun at the house. We never played with it. We never -- even if they had a conflict, they did not go run to get the gun and come back. They resolved the contract by -- the conflict by talking. But don't forget, at the same time, we had a tribal. So the tribe -- if one of the tribe shot somebody, then the whole tribe in trouble. So the person represent…

NNAMDIWell, we're talking about fundamental cultural difference there.

AUSTERMUHLEYeah.

MOHAMMADYeah.

NNAMDI…in fact, Muhammad. I don't know that the notion that the more people have guns the more peaceful they're likely to be is one that members of this Council of the District of Columbia subscribe to. They have publicly expressed that they don't like concealed carry.

AUSTERMUHLENo.

NNAMDIThey don't want people walking around with guns in the District.

AUSTERMUHLENope.

NNAMDIYet, the bill passed unanimously.

AUSTERMUHLEYes.

NNAMDIWhy'd they vote for something they opposed?

AUSTERMUHLEWell, they figured that they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. They realized that they may hate the idea and they all said so, but that the court laid out its case and said, "Listen, your ban is unconstitutional." So they had to find some -- something approaching a middle ground. And this is what they got. Now, just back to the caller's comments, what's interesting is that the -- lots of gun advocates say exactly that, if you give law-abiding citizens guns…

NNAMDIYes.

AUSTERMUHLE…they can protect themselves against the not law-abiding citizens who already have illegal guns.

NNAMDIYes.

AUSTERMUHLEAnd, you know, there's probably some merit to that argument. And at the same time the Council -- it's interesting -- they always make the argument that we have to make this as restrictive as possible because presidents have been shot in Washington. And it is very true. Ronald Reagan was shot down in DuPont Circle, so on and so forth. But then gun owners will always fire back -- pun intended -- that, well, those were not legally registered guns in the District of Columbia. So you, you know, if someone wants to do damage with an illegally concealed gun, they already can. There's not much stopping them.

NNAMDIHere's Douglas, in McLean, Va. Douglas, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DOUGLASGood afternoon. Back in the mid-1980s I lived in Adams Morgan. And there was a shooting incident behind my building one afternoon. And when I tried to take pictures, I asked the police, "Can I take pictures?" They said, "Sure, go ahead." And then they prevented me from doing so. And I -- they said I was obstructing justice. I said, "Obstructing justice how?" To make a long story short, they then arrested me.

AUSTERMUHLEWow.

DOUGLASAnd then -- so I'm waiting in a holding tank. And they gave me back my cameras and I took pictures of myself handcuffed to the wall looking really pissed. And when I came to have a trial, I looked at the officer's report and he had me taking pictures, being told to stop, continuing to take pictures. And I showed the negatives and the proof sheet to the district attorney and it was personal pictures and then me handcuffed to the wall.

DOUGLASI didn't take any pictures. And they threw the case out in four seconds. Having photographic evidence or video evidence is critical and -- because police lie sometimes. And this will stop that.

NNAMDIWell, what's interesting in this situation, Douglas, as Martin and I discussed earlier, is that not only citizens like you seem to think this is a good idea with their interactions with police, but for some people, surprisingly enough, both the police and the police union seem to think it's a good idea, too.

AUSTERMUHLEYeah, and the interesting about your case, specifically, there is now actually a new order that Lanier issued a couple years ago saying that citizens, residents, have the right to take pictures of police officers while they do their work. Now, they can't -- that doesn't mean a resident can just walk onto a crime scene and start taking pictures of, let's say, you know, a person's body. But they can take pictures of the officers at work.

AUSTERMUHLEAnd it came up about a week ago that -- I think a similar situation of your own -- that an officer stopped someone with a camera outside a library downtown and basically said, "You can't take pictures of this. You're now part of the crime scene." And became quite threatening. And Lanier was out on TV the next day saying, you know, "Absolutely not. You are allowed to take pictures of police officers as they do their regular work."

NNAMDIMartin Austermuhle, he's a producer and reporter with WAMU 88.5 News. Martin, thank you for joining us.

AUSTERMUHLEThanks for having me.

NNAMDIWe are going to take a short break. When we come back, Loudoun County school superintendent Eric Williams. You can start calling right now if you have questions or comments for him. 800-433-8850. You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.