MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, how local governments are cashing in on their poorest citizens. But first, a personal perspective on domestic violence. For those who have never been abused by an intimate partner, it's hard to imagine how you can be in love with someone who hurts you. Viewers across the country were shocked when they saw a video of the Baltimore Ravens football player Ray Rice knocking his fiancée unconscious in an Atlantic City elevator.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIThe graphic video prompted many questions of Mr. Rice, but also of his now wife, Janay Rice. Why did she stay with him and how could she marry him after he did something so awful to her? Many survivors of abuse have since spoken out about their experience, why they stayed in such a relationship, and how they were finally able to leave. Joining me now to discuss this is Leslie Morgan Steiner. She is author of the best-selling memoir "Crazy Love" and a TED talk about why domestic violence victims stay in abusive relationships. Leslie Morgan Steiner, thank you for joining us.

MS. LESLIE MORGAN STEINERIt's a pleasure to be here.

NNAMDIAlso with us in studio is Jenny Brody, co-executive director of D.C. Volunteer Lawyers. Jenny Brody, thank you for joining us.

MS. JENNY BRODYThank you for having me.

NNAMDIIf you have questions or comments for us, if you have questions about abusive relationships, have you or a loved one ever experienced intimate partner violence? Give us a call at 800-433-8850. You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Shoot us a tweet @kojoshow. Leslie, a lot of us have seen the Ray Rice video. Most of what we hear about this kind of violence is about the violent moments themselves. But I'm assuming that at some point, the relationship was good or you never would have been hit in the first place. How does this abuse tend to start?

STEINERWell, it's a great point that you made. And what -- the early stages are always fairytale romance. And in my case, it was no different. I met my husband in New York and we fell in love, and I felt like no one had ever understood me or appreciated me as much as he did. And he first attacked me, he choked me five days before our wedding. And it really came out of the blue. He had not been angry before. It was very unexpected. And I didn't know anything about domestic violence, so I didn't know what red flags to look for before that.

NNAMDIYou attributed it to anxiety about the wedding.

STEINERI did. I did. I wrote it off. I thought, you know, that's what I'd read in women's magazines, that men get cold feet. Maybe he was worried. And I thought he would never do it again. And then, he beat me twice more on our honeymoon. So, I really identify with Janay Palmer Rice, the fact that she married him and the fact that she is so clearly trying to protect him. And also that she's so clearly in love with him and terrified of him at the same time. It's exactly the way I felt.

NNAMDIAfter some people saw the video, they wondered why Janay Rice would stay with Ray Rice after he punched her in the face. Others argue that even asking for her explanation is unfair, because it places some level of responsibility on her. But it's still hard for many people to understand, not leaving someone. Why did you stay in your relationship?

STEINERI stayed for many, many reasons, just like all victims have a lot of reasons why we stay. I think that the most compelling reasons, though, were that I really loved him. And I know that it sounds twisted to say that, but I did. And I knew it wasn't his fault what he was doing. He had been terribly abused as a child himself, and I felt sorry for him. But the thing that still shocks me now is that, believe it or not, I didn't know that I was a battered wife. I thought I was a strong, smart woman in love with a troubled man.

STEINERAnd it wasn't until after I ended the marriage that the light bulb went off and I realized that I had the victim of domestic violence. But throughout the whole relationship, I never was able to identify myself that way.

NNAMDII want to try to make a trick distinction here. A number of the examples you talk about, especially the early ones, do not involve straight up violence. And you say there's a difference between a physical fight and abuse. How are they different?

STEINEROkay, so growing up, I had brothers and sisters, and we fought all the time, physically. That was not domestic violence. Domestic violence is when one partner uses violence to manipulate, coerce and control the other person. And emotional abuse, in my view, is just as bad as physical violence. Because it's one person trying to dominate the other. So what my husband did to me, it wasn't -- you know, it doesn't matter who throws the first punch. It doesn't matter that Janay Palmer was in Ray Rice's face in that elevator.

STEINERWhat matters is if there's a pattern of one person trying to control the other. And that is what my husband was trying to do to me and what he did effectively for many, many years.

NNAMDIWell, thank you for explaining why my sisters' fingernails always managed to subdue me any time we were fighting over a ball or something. Jenny, you run an organization that provides services to survivors. What kind of help do survivors need?

BRODYSurvivors need legal help. And one thing that maybe has been overlooked in the Janay Palmer Rice case is that she has a child in common with Ray Price -- Ray Rice, sorry. And having a child in common is an enormous obstacle to leaving for I would say the majority of our clients. And children are also victims of domestic violence. So, frequently, what our clients most need is civil relief. And that's the kind of cases we handle. We provide free lawyers for victims who need to get a civil protection order, which is the same as a stay away order.

BRODYAnd that provides a whole range of relief, but one of the first to stay way, obviously. But one of the most important things is that it gives the victim temporary custody of a child in common with the abuser. And it can also provide for child support. And in addition, I would say 80 percent of our clients are in insecure housing, as we say, because they've had to flee a shared residence to escape from the abuse. And a civil protection order can actually order that the abuser be the one to leave the shared residence, so that the victim and her children can stay.

BRODYAnd, in addition, it also makes victim eligible for crime victims compensation, which is cash assistance, either to change the locks on an apartment or possibly for emergency housing for a victim who has to leave.

NNAMDIYour center offers services, quoting here, without judgment. And doesn't pressure people to leave a relationship if they're not ready. Why wouldn't you urge someone who may be in danger to just leave a relationship?

BRODYYou know, that's a good question. We have a walk-in domestic violence clinic, weekly, on Wednesdays, and we see clients, who at all stages, from what Leslie explained to first, even beginning to understand that they are a victim of abuse. All the way to clients who say, okay, I'm ready to leave now and I need help to do it. And everyone in between. And so, we see our role as providing clients with the information they need about their legal options to leave. If they decide to leave, here's what you can expect and here's the protection you can get.

BRODYBut we meet clients where they are. It's their decision and it's their timeline.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is our number. How have your views about violence, domestic violence, changed since the Ray Rice incident? Or have they not? 800-433-8850. We're talking with Jenny Brody, co-executive director of D.C. Volunteer Lawyers Project. And Leslie Morgan Steiner, author of the best-selling memoir, "Crazy Love" and a TED talk on why domestic violence victims stay in abusive relationships. Leslie, you talk about your experience having supportive friendships. People who were there for you without being judgmental, without pressuring you to leave. What did that mean to you at the time?

STEINERWell, first I wanted to say the title of the book is "Crazy Love."

NNAMDI"Crazy Love."

STEINERI just want to get it...

NNAMDIOh, right. Right. Crazy.

STEINER...right. As an author, it took me 10 years to write it, so I need to stand up for it. One of the things that I write about in "Crazy Love" is that I had two friends who didn't tell me to leave. They didn't take a tough love stance. They just -- they really understood what a difficult situation I was in and they gave me a lot of dignity. And it takes the average victim seven attempts to leave an abuser. And that can often take decades. Because it's a much more complicated dynamic than anybody possibly understands.

STEINERAnd it's hard to find a place to go. And it's hard -- often, you've covered up the violence for years, which is what I did. And it took me a long time to be ready, to admit to myself and to my family and friends, and also to my abuser, that this was unacceptable and I wasn't going to tolerate it anymore.

NNAMDII'm glad you talked about having non-judgmental friends. Were there also judgmental friends?

STEINERI'm sure that there were many judgmental friends. But I didn't hear from them, and I -- even though I, you know, I speak all the time about being a survivor, I don't get a lot of judgment. People are really sympathetic. But I do, you know, I still know a lot of the common misconceptions about domestic violence. And, you know, it's come out a lot in the Janay Palmer Rice case, that people say she's staying for the money. That she's -- you know, it's just so insulting to a victim, you know, he could kill her at any moment.

STEINERAnd money has nothing to do with it. And I just want to say one more thing about how people leave. It's important to break through somebody's denial. But we have to kind of do that on our own. You can't have somebody force you to do that. But you need non-judgmental friends who are ready when you can leave. Because you need a place to go. And also, as Jenny Brody has explained, one of the most important things that a victims need are lawyers who understand domestic violence.

STEINERAnd that's what I got when I left. I come from a family of Harvard educated lawyers, but none of them knew anything about family violence, and I needed an advocate to go to court with me. Because, even then, I was terrified the judge would believe my husband, not me, even though I had documented years of his -- him holding loaded guns to my head and pushing me down stairs and doing other terrible things. I still thought no one would believe me.

NNAMDIJenny Brody, the most dangerous times for victims of intimate partner violence is after they have ended the relationship, but if they are not ready to end it, you try to help them to come up with a safety plan. What's that?

BRODYThat's correct. And a safety plan is, when you're talking to a victim who's still involved in the relationship, either living with the abuser or hasn't taken steps to end the relationship. So, it's individual to each person, but some of the things are very simple and obvious. So, one would be to Xerox all important documents, like your children's birth certificates, your driver's license, anything that you might need if you have to flee in a hurry, which many victims do.

BRODYIt can mean always keeping your keys in your purse, by the door. It can also mean that if you sense an argument brewing, you should not be in the kitchen, where there are a lot of objects that could be used as weapons. You should try not to be in the bathroom where you can be trapped and there are hard surfaces. It's having perhaps clothes at a trusted friend's house. Starting to gather cash or a separate checking account that could be accessible to you.

NNAMDIOn to the telephones now. Here is Dwight in Baltimore, Maryland. Dwight, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DWIGHTHi. Good afternoon, Kojo. And good afternoon to your guests. I am -- thank you for the programming. I'm just a little frustrated with the conversation continuing about Ray Rice, specifically. There is a federal court judge whose name is Mark Fuller, and he is -- beat his wife several times. And this guy is a federal court judge. I'm not discounting domestic violence. I know what it's like. I've had people in my family that have been there. But I think that this conversation around Ray Rice is just going on and on.

DWIGHTAnd in a newspaper article, Atlanta, this happened in Atlanta, Georgia. It was described that he beat his wife bloody. And this is a federal court judge.

NNAMDII am familiar with that case. And you raise an important issue, because Leslie, some people look at the Ray Rice case and think, this is a race issue. Others look at it and think, well, maybe it's a class issue. But here you are, you're a white woman who left an abusive relationship with a man who worked on Wall Street. Has your background changed the way people react to your story?

STEINERI think my background makes it easier for people to understand that this happens to anybody. All races, all religions, all income levels. And also, importantly, domestic violence happens to men too. It happens to men when they're children, because parents abuse their kids, but it also happens to adult men in heterosexual, married relationships. So, it happens to everywhere. Everyone, everywhere. And, you know, I went to Harvard College, and so no one is going to say that I stayed because I was stupid. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.

STEINERSo, I like to think that the fact that I speak out and I'm not ashamed of what happened to me, hopefully will help other victims understand that it's not their fault. And I hope that, at a larger level, it helps us blame perpetrators not victims.

STEINERAnd I think the caller has a really good point that this happens everywhere. Three women are killed a day in our country because of domestic violence. It's the number one reason women visit emergency rooms. It's the number one hostage negotiation situation in our country. It's really, really common and it's happening in your kid's school in your workplace, in your neighborhood. And it's -- the good thing about Ray Rice is that it raises the issue that it happens to everybody.

NNAMDIJenny Brody.

BRODYYeah, I'd like to speak to that point that the caller raised because actually law enforcement and the military are the two areas we see the most domestic violence in. And in fact, statistics show that members of the military and in law enforcement have a 40 percent higher rate of committing domestic violence than the population at large. So that's another area where we see very high rates of violence committed. And I would echo what Leslie says. It definitely is true that a man can be a victim of domestic violence. And we do represent men -- male victims of violence.

NNAMDIJoe in Rockville, Md. says he is one such. Joe, you are on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOETalk about timing, my goodness. First of all, I don't want to diminish in any way what these folks are saying because I -- being in law enforcement, now that I'm retired, I totally agree with them in terms of the abuse that's out there, men on women. And in my case, my ex-wife and me, she routinely used to physically attack me. And I understand I had -- I have this from a different perspective because being in law enforcement, even more so I was taught never to raise your hands against another -- against a woman.

JOESo, yeah, I was really in a very difficult situation because I felt trapped because I had two small sons. I didn't want to leave. I didn't want to report this because in the law enforcement community, you know, it was sort of a macho type of thinking there. You know, your wife's beating the heck out of you. It was a really difficult situation. But they stole my thunder when they did say -- I just wanted to mention that it does go both ways.

JOEThe good news is I was physically able to withstand a lot of her physical abuse. The mental abuse I'm still in therapy over, but at least the physical abuse was something that I could deal with. And it's not good. It's not good. So anyway, I just wanted to mention that.

NNAMDIAnd Joe, did you and your wife eventually, I'm presuming, broke up?

JOEYeah, I -- finally, when my sons got old enough -- actually my oldest one had to restrain her. He never attacked her, but he would put his arms around her and hold her back and I would just leave. You know, I was just going to let her cool off. She just has -- from what they explained to me, she has major boundary issues. And I think, once again, I am in no way -- I don't want to diminish anything they're saying because, you know, I know there's a lot of...

NNAMDIOkay. But Joe, thank you very much for sharing your story. Jenny Brody, your organization tells survivors there is a way out but for someone who may live with their partner may have a child or children with their partner or depend on their partner for income, it can be incredibly daunting to leave all of those things. How do you coach someone through that process?

BRODYIt is difficult but it's not impossible. And actually the law provides a significant amount of relief for a person in that situation. So going back to a civil protection order, it's something you can get on an expedited basis immediately. One thing I should point out is there's no right to a lawyer in a civil case either for the petitioner that's the victim or the respondent. So that's why our organization steps in to provide free lawyers.

BRODYBut the critical forms of protection you're going to get from a civil protection order is that the abuser has to stay away from you, your place of employment, your children, your children's school and a whole range of places. It's going to give the non-abusive parent custody of the children in order for the other -- the noncustodial parent to pay child support, which is very important. It can order the abusive party to leave the resident.

BRODYAnd another thing that's very important is that the judge can order the abuser to get a mental health evaluation, substance abuse evaluation or alcohol abuse and also domestic violence counseling. Because when there's a child in common, the abuser's going to remain the parent of that child until they reach age 18. And most victims who have a child with the abuser desperately wants the abuser to get the help he needs to recover from abuse and to become a better parent.

NNAMDIHow often does that happen?

BRODYWhich?

NNAMDIThat the abuser recovers from the abuse and becomes a better parent?

BRODYThat's a really good question.

NNAMDIAre there any statistics at all on that?

BRODYNot that I know of.

NNAMDINot that you -- yeah. You mentioned this earlier, Leslie, many of the people who end up abusers experience some kind of abuse in their own childhood. What's the link between child abuse and abuse from one adult to another?

STEINERWell, you know, what I saw in my own husband was that he had been so terribly abused as a young boy and he hated it. And he grew up hating abuse but then grew up to be an abuser himself. And I think he had learned at a certain level that it was a very effective way to dominate and control somebody. And he didn't want me to leave him. He was terrified of abandonment. And I think he thought that if he abused me and really broke me down that I would not ever be strong enough to leave. And ironically he made me leave because of the abuse.

STEINERAnd I think it's a really hard thing for people on the outside to understand and a question that everybody should ask is, why on earth would anybody abuse somebody who loves them? And abuse is very -- it follows a very set pattern. The fairytale stage, then the isolation, then the threat of violence and then the violence itself and then the apology and then you repeat it.

STEINERAnd if it's so easy to understand in that way, I don't understand why we're not more focused on abusers and trying to get them help because in my experience it's very hard for abusers to recover. And it's one reason I left my husband is that an expert on male battering told me that he had worked in the field for 20 years and he'd never seen anybody really get better.

NNAMDIThat link between being abused as a child and becoming an abuser?

BRODYCompletely borne out by research. Children who witness domestic violence are completely victims of violence themselves. And in addition to a much higher percentage of boys who witness violence becoming abusers is also the case that girls who witness violence are much more likely to become victims themselves. And in addition, children boys and girls who witness violence re much more -- have negative outcomes academically, socially and emotionally on a whole range of scales.

BRODYBut I can say one thing about civil protection orders which is that studies have shown that a protection order is 86 percent effective at preventing future acts of physical violence. So that is not necessarily to say that the abuser may recover or understand -- you know, recover from being an abuser but there is hard evidence that will back up that getting that piece of paper will prevent...

NNAMDII'm so glad you mentioned that because we only read and see in the media about protective orders that are violated. We rarely ever hear that 86 percent of protective orders are, in fact, recognized.

BRODYYes, very effective. And that's something that surprises many people, but actually shows that that part of the legal relief is, in fact, quite effective.

NNAMDIAnd I'm afraid that's about all the time we have. jenny Brody is co-executive director of the D.C. Volunteer Lawyers Project. Thank you very much for joining us. And Leslie Morgan Steiner is author of a bestselling memoir that used to be called "Cra-love," but it's real name is "Crazy Love." She's also had a TED Talk on why domestic violence victims stay in abusive relationships. Thank you so much for joining us.

STEINERThank you, Kojo.

BRODYThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIWe're going to take a short break. When we come back, how local governments are cashing in on their poorest citizens. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.