MR. KOJO NNAMDIBirds and planes, we're accustomed to. But drones are set to become a more common sight in U.S. skies as the FAA readies for the rollout of new regulations that will integrate unmanned aircraft into civilian airspace next year. But these changes come even as the military, which has the most experience with drones, deals with safety concerns, crashes at home and abroad.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIHere to discuss the implications of the expanded role these crafts will play in our lives is Craig Whitlock. He is Pentagon and national security reporter for the Washington Post. He's behind the paper's -- the newspaper's three-part series on drones. Craig Whitlock, thank you so much for joining us.

MR. CRAIG WHITLOCKThanks for having me, Kojo.

NNAMDIDrones are becoming ever more popular with military and civilian users alike. Let's start, as your series on the Post does, with the military. Controversy about drone strikes is not new, but in the course of this year-long investigation, you found that basic safe operation of the drones is an issue. What kind of range of malfunction and accident are we talking about?

WHITLOCKWell, all sorts of malfunctions. Pilot error, we have mechanical problems, weather problems. It really runs the gamut. But what was really striking that we found were some of the incidents were pretty hair-raising, where pilots just lost control. They didn't know where the drones were. We found four that just vanished off into the wild blue yonder after they lost their control links.

WHITLOCKWe found one pilot was -- didn't even realize she was flying her predator drone upside down when it crashed. We had pilots pressing the wrong buttons at -- in their ground control stations that lead to crashes. And this is the military which, all things considered, is really good at operating aircraft. You know, they have more experience with drones than any other organization in the world.

WHITLOCKThey train their people very well. They've flown them for millions of hours. But still, they're having a number of problems that don't bode very well for when drones start becoming more common in the United States.

NNAMDISo if the military has concerns about the safety protocols, how do they address those concerns?

WHITLOCKWell, I think the military has made, to their credit, a lot of progress in terms of improving pilot training, the newer drone models have more safety features. They've come a long way. But still, they're having another -- a number of problems that still haven't been addressed. One of those is the ability of a drone to, as they call it, detect and avoid other aircraft. If you have a pilot in a plane, they can look out the window and they can see if something's coming close.

WHITLOCKA drone can't. And if the guy on the ground or the woman flying it can't really see that either, drones have little cameras but they don't give you the range of vision. So really a drone can't see something coming that a regular aircraft pilot could.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is our number. Are you concerned about the use of drones at home and abroad? What worries you most? You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Our guest is Craig Whitlock, Pentagon and national security reporter for the Washington Post, who's behind the three-part series in the newspaper on drones. You can also send us a tweet, @kojoshow. Or go to our website kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there.

NNAMDICraig, U.S. leaders have recently faced renewed questions about air strikes in Iraq. How have drones changed the equation of how we consider these questions in the last decade?

WHITLOCKWell, drones are -- the great advantage, militarily, for drones, of course, is that there's no pilot in the aircraft. So you can send a drone into harm's way and you don't have to worry about the pilot getting shot down. And no question that's saved countless lives from the military's perspective. They're also pretty easy. They're pretty portable to move around. They literally can take a drone apart. And they put it in a crate that they call the coffin. And they stick it in the back of an airport transport plane and they can fly it to wherever they want.

WHITLOCKThey're easy to unpack and mobilize in different parts of the world. So -- and they're relatively cheap, compared to fighter aircraft. They can fly overhead for up to 20 hours, 25 hours of flight. You know, four or five times as long as a regular plane. So there's enormous advantages, militarily, to using these things that have really revolutionized warfare.

NNAMDIAnd you think that enormous advantage, militarily, has, in some measure, translated into a cultural transformation, domestically? Well, not transformation, but a cultural attitude generally, where we tend to think of drones in kindly terms.

WHITLOCKWell, I think that's very much up in the air, and a subject of quite a bit of debate that people have generated a lot of strong feelings about drones. And this is something they've sort of watched from afar. They hear about drone strikes. They are sort of grappling with this idea of, you know, what is the morality of having a drone pilot who's sitting in a ground control station in safe place hitting the fire button and firing missiles.

NNAMDIThat's been a heated debate, you're right.

WHITLOCKAnd yet, the technology advancement is striking. And these things have -- in addition to revolutionizing warfare, they're going to revolutionize civil aviation back here in the United States and elsewhere in the world.

NNAMDIEven those these aircraft are piloted remotely, they still have pilots who are a very human part of this equation. How do crashes affect the people behind the controls?

WHITLOCKYou know, that's a really good question. And something we don't hear very much about. One unfortunate thing, aspect of the use of drones by the military over the past few years is the Pentagon, the Obama administration have layered quite a bit of secrecy on those operations. It used to be they would let reporters talk to drone pilots. Now, in large part, they do not. They used to give us their names and, you know, were pretty open about it. Now, they don't. In publishing our series we had a number of very dramatic quotes from drone pilots who had been involved in crashes.

WHITLOCKWe had transcripts of voice recordings from their stations when they were about to crash. And, you know, they were very emotional, very human. But even when we were getting ready to publish, the Air Force was asking us not to name some of the pilots who had made those quotes because -- and I'm not quite sure why, but the effect is it's removed that element, that human element from the public's awareness of how these things work.

NNAMDI800-433-8850. Do you think the U.S. has been too slow in rolling out regulation for drones unmanned aircraft use? 800-433-8850. Or if you have -- you're a hobbyist, and you've flown drones for professional purposes, share your experiences with us. Whether you're a hobbyist or done it professionally, how have you used them, and have you run into any problems? Give us a call, 800-433-8850. The size of these aircraft vary significantly. How big is the fleet of drones used by the U.S. military and what range of equipment are we talking about?

WHITLOCKWell, you're right, Kojo. It is a big range. There is about 10 -- excuse me, 10,000 drones that the U.S. military has in their fleet, but they range from ones that are just one pound, you know, they're like a little hobbyist thing with a camera on it. Pardon me. Up to a global hawk, which is -- has about 15 tons, the size and wingspan of a Boeing 757. So, you know, they really run the gamut. And most of them are small, but they have several hundred of the large ones that are like regular airplane size.

NNAMDIAnd just how much do these drones cost, both the standup initially, and in terms of replacement costs and liability costs from accidents?

WHITLOCKWell, I'll give you an example of the predator drone, which is pretty well known for air strikes overseas. Is -- it costs about $4 million for an aircraft. That sounds like a lot, but that's pretty cheap compared to an F-15, F-16, or an F-22, which are Air Force fighter air craft, which cost, you know, at least 10 times as much. That said, you also raise a good point.

WHITLOCKThey cost a fair bit to operate because you have a big crew on the ground responsible for flying these things, for maintaining them, for looking at the surveillance imagery that comes across, so they're not that simple to operate. And they do require big crews.

NNAMDIWe got a tweet from Anton, who asks, "What about drones and property rights? Don't drones fly in a regulatory gray space that the FAA is only beginning to examine?"

WHITLOCKIt is a gray space. I would say the FAA has been examining it for some time. It's moving pretty slowly. The FAA is currently preparing proposed rules for who should be able to operate these under what conditions. But it hasn't -- the safety standards have not kept up with the advances in technology. And now it's pretty inexpensive, you know, a person can go online, buy a drone with a camera on it for $500 or less. It's legal for hobbyists to use them, as long as they don't take them to airports or in populated areas. But for commercial purposes, the FAA has essentially had a de facto ban in place until it can work out the rules.

NNAMDIOn to the telephones. Here is Lily, in Washington, D.C. Lily, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

LILYWell, thank you for giving me the time. Considering the time we are living in at this moment, when it's not a conventional war that people are fighting, these are mostly blood-thirsty terrorists who are willing to kill, just like they did in Kenya. Innocent Africans being slaughtered by so-called terrorists who are very, very evil. The drone, I think, is necessary to eliminate these people. They have no sympathy, no, whatsoever, humanity with what they are doing.

NNAMDIWell, Lily, what do you think about drones being expanded to civilian usage, not just for military airstrikes, but for, well, delivering packages to your home?

LILYWhatever is necessary, I don't mind. Because this time is not the time -- when the world was fighting Hitler, that was conventional warfare. This a time…

NNAMDIOkay.

LILY…where these evil people are willing to slaughter innocent Africans, Kenya, Tanzania, don't forget.

NNAMDIOkay.

LILYCutting necks off, heads off.

NNAMDIWe're not…

LILYWe should do whatever is necessary to stop these people.

NNAMDIWe're not forgetting that. But thank you very much for you call. But since you made that point…

LILYIt needs to be done. Needs to be done.

NNAMDISince you made that point and -- since you made that point and Craig was talking earlier about the heated debate over the issue, I think it's appropriate that we bring in Cliff, in Alexandria, Va. I'm sorry, Chris, in Alexandria, Va. Chris, your turn.

CHRISThank you very much, Kojo. I think drones ought to be outlawed for military use. The reason I say that is because you take out the human element, which would give any country pause before they go to war, because with drones you don't put the human element out there and there's no reason or no reason not to strike. Because you're not wasting anything. On the other hand, I think drones would be great for like fire spotting and helping fire rangers. They would -- drones would be great for traffic control, etcetera.

NNAMDISo you have one caller who approves them for military use, another who approves them only for civilian use. The civilian sector has seen a big boost in interest in drones, both for commercial and recreational purposes. How significantly are those parts of the field expected to expand in the coming year or so?

WHITLOCKWell, enormously. I don't think we really have our heads around just how big the market could be for those things, whether it's commercial use, delivering things, as Chris mentioned with, you know, traffic control, wildfires, things like that. You know, they just started to do that sort of thing, but no question the market is going to be enormous.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Chris. And the debate over their use in military circumstances is likely to continue even as they expand in civilian use, but let's move on to Allen, on the Eastern Shore, in Maryland. Allen, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ALLENHi, Kojo. Thanks for taking my call.

NNAMDIYou're welcome.

ALLENI wondered -- I keep hearing about drones are supposed to be able to hover over a target. And I wondered how they do that.

NNAMDIWell, I don't know that Craig is an aerospace engineer, but he might be able to tell you about whether in fact drones do, in fact, have the capacity to hover.

WHITLOCKThey do. I mean, not hover in one -- stay still in one spot, but they fly around slowly in circles. In the way -- that's what the military folks would describe as hovering. You know, predator drones, reaper drones, they actually fly pretty slow. And they kind of hum and they move along, maybe, you know, a couple hundred miles an hour.

WHITLOCKBut they can move around in circles, much more slowly than a fighter jet. And, again, stay aloft, as they describe it, they loiter for a long time, for up to 20 hours. So they're really good for surveillance, in terms of the military can just, you know, keep -- literally keep them up there all day with their cameras focused on whatever target they're looking at.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Allen. Commercial air travel is considered one of the safest modes of travel there is. With expanded drone use on the horizon, how much concern is there that they could pose a threat to the safety of passenger flights?

WHITLOCKWell, I think that's a really important and pressing question, Kojo. Of course, the drone industry and their proponents say that they can fly extremely safely, they will be integrated into airports and the national air space. But, as we've examined with the military's experience, there are concerns that these things don't always fly as expected or as planned. And they fly out of control. And one thing we've started to see are a number of small, rogue hobbyist drones that people fly illicitly near airports.

WHITLOCKAnd there have been a number of close calls with passenger planes. And this is something we'll address in more detail in our story tomorrow, that I think may give some people the heebie-jeebies when they read about it.

NNAMDIYou should know the third and final installment of this series does, in fact, run tomorrow. You can find links to it up on our website, kojoshow.org. Where you can also go, if you have a question or comment. Are you concerned about the use of drones at home and abroad? What worries you most? You can also call us at 800-433-8850. And you mentioned private operators. Mark, in Annapolis, Md., identifies himself as one such. Mark, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MARKGood afternoon. Yes. I've been flying a drone for about a year now in the Annapolis area. And I find it frustrating to hear some of the comments that are made because, really, the vast majority of these privately-owned drones weigh around two pounds. And there's only so much damage that a two-pound piece of flying plastic can do.

MARKAnd some of these reports that I've heard of pilots seeing drones near airports, I also have a hard time believing because a 737 on a final approach, at 170 miles an hour, won't even notice one of these things as it flies around. And finally, the firmware on my particular drone, which is done by TJI, and it's probably one of the most popular brands -- has firmware that keeps you from flying near an airport. If you get near an airport, it lands itself. And if you're at the airport it won't even allow itself to take off. So the safety features are being built into these, into these item.

NNAMDIAnd I think, Craig Whitlock, that's what the FAA is trying to make sure happens before we are exposed to broader commercial use of drones.

WHITLOCKWell, I think that's right. And that's an important safety feature, Mark, that would keep certain aircraft away from airports. Although, I can tell you for a fact that isn't always happening. Unfortunately. I'm sure the majority of people who fly these as hobbyists, the small ones, do it responsibly, but right now there really is an absence of rules. And an absence of rules in terms of training and certification. I mean, one thing the military's really good at is training and certifying its pilots.

WHITLOCKAnd they've still been having difficulties. You know, and I think there's a lot of concern that once the airspace becomes open in the United States, that people who have a lot of less experience, who are civilians, be trained and operate thoroughly tested models. Whereas, right now, that's really up in the air.

NNAMDIAnd the issue of communicating with drones was a big part of the concern as they expand in commercial and recreational use, is -- are they not?

WHITLOCKWell, that's right. I mean, for example, Kojo, on Friday, the National Park Service announced a ban on drones in their areas. And that's a lot of acreage. I think it's, you know, 80 plus million acres they're talking about. And, you know, it stands to reason the hobbyists would want to go to these wide-open spaces and take a drone that weighs a few pounds with a camera on it and, you know, it seems like a natural place. But at the same time, they were having a number of incidents where these drones were flying in too close to people.

WHITLOCKThere was one at Mt. Rushmore like that, disturbing wildlife, you know, and, again, this thing was -- these activities were just starting to happen. The potential is enormous. And I think that was one thing the Park Service was reacting to, knowing that these kind of activities are only going to increase and what are the implications for that going to be?

NNAMDIWhich brings me to this, because since the Park Service has decided to do that on its own, what does the absence of regulation from the FAA mean for other agencies? Do you think we'll see clarification of a lot of piecemeal rules sometime soon?

WHITLOCKThat's another really good question, Kojo. Because it is a real mess out there with an absence of consistent rule making. You have -- the federal government passed a low in 2012 that ordered the FAA to open the national air space to drones. But on the state level we have all sorts of different rules, laws, bills being put in place. Some of them are encouraging it. Some of them are trying to outlaw it.

WHITLOCKSome of them are saying you can use it for this, but not for that. Even within the same states or localities, they're in real disagreement over there. There are no national standards in place yet. And I don't think there's a consensus either.

NNAMDIOn now to Muhammad, in Springfield, Va. Muhammad, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MUHAMMADHi, Kojo. Just a brief note to the gentleman who said that the drones, no matter how small they are, they would represent no danger to an airliner near an airport. That is absolutely incorrect. I worked as an aviation mechanic in the military for six years. And I can tell you, absolutely, any -- it's called foreign object damage, FOD. Any small piece of metal, glass, no matter what it is, once it goes into a jet engine intake, you can take it down. It can damage it. It can cause the plane to go down. And I will give you one single example that is pretty much clear to everyone. The Hudson River incident, when the geese or birds…

NNAMDIBirds, yeah.

MUHAMMAD…when into the intake, they damaged the airplane and it went down. And it shut down I think one or two engines. That means any small, whatever it is, going into the engine will damage it and will cause it to fall down. So that's something to take into consideration.

NNAMDIYou make a good point, Muhammad. Craig Whitlock, look into your crystal ball for us in a decade's time, how fundamentally different will our skies look from today, in terms of the aircraft in those skies?

WHITLOCKWell, I think 10 years from now, again, it's hard to get our heads around it. And I've been looking at this issue for a few years now and I can't even adequately describe for you, how things are likely to change over the long haul, in terms of, not just little drones, you know, hobbyists, we're talking about delivery, monitoring, surveillance, you know, who's going to be able to operate these. I mean, yes, the FAA is going to put rules in place, but it really is going to be a revolution in terms of aviation. And the potential for these things is, you know, it is hard to describe.

NNAMDICraig Whitlock is Pentagon and national security reporter for the Washington Post. He's behind the Post's three-part series on drones. As we mentioned, the third and final installment of the series runs tomorrow. You can find links at our website, kojoshow.org. Craig, thank you for joining us.

WHITLOCKThanks, Kojo. I really enjoyed it.

NNAMDIAnd thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.