MS. JENNIFER GOLBECKFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. I'm Jen Golbeck from the University of Maryland sitting in for Kojo. Later in the broadcast, security at the Sochi Olympics. We look at terrorism, threats in Russia's preparations. But first, it reads like a Shakespearean tragedy.

MS. JENNIFER GOLBECKVirginia's former governor was once seen as a rising star in the Republican Party. Now he faces federal charges of corruption. Federal prosecutors indicted Bob McDonnell and his wife yesterday on 14 felony counts, ranging from fraud to conspiracy. It's the culmination of a federal investigation into a gift scandal that cast a shadow over McDonnell's final months in office and continues to raise questions about Virginia's ethic laws.

MS. JENNIFER GOLBECKJoining me to discuss are Quentin Kidd, professor of political science, and director of the Wason Center for Public Policy at Christopher Newport University. Thanks for joining us, Quentin.

MR. QUENTIN KIDDGood to be with you.

GOLBECKWe have Michael Pope, a WAMU reporter, who also covers Virginia politics for the Connection Newspapers. Good to have you with us, Michael.

MR. MICHAEL POPEGood to be here. Thank you.

GOLBECKAnd Gordon Witkin, joining us in studio, he's managing editor of the Center for Public Integrity, a nonprofit investigative journalism organization. He supervises the state's integrity investigation. Good to have you here, Gordon.

MR. GORDON WITKINThanks for having me, Jen.

GOLBECKMichael, let's start with you. McDonnell faced a threat of federal charges throughout his final months as governor of Virginia. And the prosecutor even told McDonnell last December that he was planning to indict him. Now that he's been officially charged, where does McDonnell stand?

POPEWell, he claims that he has done nothing wrong and made a very unusual television appearance last night saying essentially that the prosecutors didn't have much of a case for him, that there's nothing illegal about having friends, and there's nothing illegal about scheduling meetings. The prosecutors of course have a very different story that they've outlined in their extensive indictment.

POPEYou know, in the lead in your saying it's a -- the story has Shakespearean sort of undertones -- and that's true, but, you know, reading this indictment makes me think of some other references. I mean, the story here, the narrative, seems to me to be sort of a cross between "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" and "Law and Order." I mean, there's all these luxury gifts and fancy golf retreats and the Smith Mountain Lake estate. And, you know, if you were casting this as a movie, you would have to spend a lot of time on elaborate sets.

GOLBECKSo, Quentin, let's turn to you. McDonnell easily won the seat of governor of Virginia back in 2009. And up until the gift-giving allegations emerged, he was a popular leader. Now we have these serious federal charges and details of their life of luxury from an Oscar de la Renta dress to rides in a $200,000 Ferrari. What kind of image did these charges paint of McDonnell? And how does that compare to the public image he built for himself as governor?

KIDDWell, you know, the charges -- I mean, Michael -- I think Michael has really got to the point of it. The charges really paint the picture of a family struggling, I mean, a very middle class family who had the financial problems of a middle class family. It just -- as the nation's financial crisis was sort of coming in to maturity, you know, they had several mortgages that they had to pay bills on.

KIDDThey had kids in college. They had a daughter who was getting ready to be married. And then put on top of all of that, the expenses of having to, you know, live the life of the office of governor. And literally, the indictment talks about how much of a struggle that was. And so, you know, they -- the public perception of them is obviously the perception that they could do all of this. But we now know from this indictment that they really struggled doing it all. And obviously the federal charges suggested they went down the path of illegalities, actually, to be able to do it all.

GOLBECKYou too can join the conversation. What do you think about the charges brought against former Gov. Bob McDonnell? Has this scandal altered your perception of McDonnell and his legacy as governor of Virginia? You can join us by calling 1-800-433-8850. Or email us at kojo@wamu.org. Gordon, you supervised the state integrity investigation, which reviews and rates state transparency laws. Your project has given Virginia an F on its corruption risk report card. We asked McDonnell about this in August of 2012. Here's how he responded.

GOV. ROBERT MCDONNELLWell, we're looking at that. We have some disagreements with some of the things that they put in that report. But, look, we take that very seriously. I mean, Virginia, for the most part, under Republican and Democrat governance has had pretty clean, honest, open, transparent governing. We're going to have a good FOIA system. When people violate the public trust, guess what, a lot of them end up going to prison. But there's been very few instances of that. I think overall we do a pretty good job.

GOLBECKSo given the scandal that eventually unfolded, what do you make of McDonnell's response? To what extent are these corruption charges a product of Virginia's ethics laws?

WITKINWell, I think the evidence from our reporting was that Virginia's system of transparency, accountability in the systems it had in place to ferret this out were weak. It was one of eight states to get an F. Our study looked at 330 very specific questions in 14 different categories.

WITKINAnd overall I think the picture painted in Virginia is one of a kind of a laissez faire view of ethics disclosure, freedom of information and accountability, and a feeling that the tradition of what's called the Virginia Way where we operate above board and we all know each other and there are informal systems of checks and balances is really a myth, particularly in a large and growing modern state.

GOLBECKSo I come originally from Illinois. They ranked 11th on your list, though our past two governors and congressional representative are all in prison right now. We ranked 11th, but Virginia ranked 47 on your list for transparency. And Maryland wasn't much higher. You placed it at 40. Do you think state laws and legislatures create the environment or corruption? Or is it something else?

WITKINWell, I think what we found in some of these places that have a history of corruption is what you may now find in Virginia. And what I mean by that is we found that states that had experienced broad and embarrassing scandals, that where that occurred, that was often a motivation, a shaming, if you will, that brought about rather explicit reforms. That has been the case in Illinois, for instance, was also the case in Louisiana, which has a very rich history of corruption...

GOLBECKAbsolutely.

WITKIN...but a state in which Gov. Jindal initiated a bunch of reforms. And a particularly ironic, at the moment, our reporting found that some of the most intensive reforms had come about in New Jersey, which obviously in the past and right now today has a reputation for some fairly sleazy politics.

WITKINBut what we found in New Jersey -- and that surprised us as much as anybody -- what we found in New Jersey was that the scandals that occurred during the administration of Gov. McGreevey brought about really intensive reforms of their ethics process, their procurement rules, and their disclosure rules for the office of the governor.

GOLBECKSo what impact do you think that will have? Because if you have all these reforms in New Jersey, but then you also are seeing the problems that are coming out in the news now with Chris Christie, are those laws actually affecting what politicians are doing? Or is it giving a new way to prosecute them for misbehaving?

WITKINWell, I think it's a mixed picture. You want to set up systems that allow you the mechanisms to go after corruption when you find it. I don't know all the details, but I would also submit that unless a lot of new information comes out, that what we see in New Jersey now may not have been explicit corruption, which I think of as pay-to-play, stealing things, money actually exchanging hands. And what happened in New Jersey was really more sort of traditional Northeast or Midwest hardball politics.

WITKINBut we also found that there are a number of states -- Virginia was one -- a number of other states were in the plains or out west where there was a more sort of belief in smaller government, a more libertarian philosophy, and a feeling and a preference for informal, we all know each other, systems than explicit systems.

WITKINAnd to close the circle on that, in states that have explicit systems, you may be more likely to ferret out the malfeasance than in states which claim they don't need these systems because we all know each other and then, you know, brandish the idea that no one -- that they haven't had a lot of corruption scandals as a reason for why they don't need these systems. It's a little backwards.

GOLBECKSo, Quentin, let's talk about prosecution. McDonnell has maintained his innocence. He said yesterday that he was falsely and wrongfully accused. Let's listen.

MCDONNELLI will use every available resource and advocate that I have for as long as it takes to fight and prevail against these false allegations and the unjust overreach of the federal government.

GOLBECKQuentin, what's McDonnell's strategy for defending himself against these charges? And how effective do you think it'll be?

KIDDWell, I think his strategy is two parts. Part one is to say that Virginia law allows everything that I did. And part two is to say there was no direct quid pro quo that the federal prosecutors or the indictment either alleges or brings any sort of evidence to bear on. And so I think -- you know, this is really a case where the Virginia Way -- I say in quotes, you know, in air quotes here.

KIDDThe Virginia Way is confronting federal law. The Virginia Way says you can take as much money as you want from somebody. Call it a gift. Call it whatever you want. You can take as much money as you want. You can take all kinds of gifts. You just can't directly do something for them because of that gift. You can do a lot of things -- you can walk right up to that line, but you can't go over it.

KIDDFederal law, on the other hand, says, you know, if there's even a hint or if you have any sense that somebody's doing something for you because they want something, then you shouldn't do it. And so this is really a case of the Virginia Way confronting federal law. And we'll see who wins in this case. But the McDonnell argument is, by Virginia's standards and Virginia law, I didn't do anything wrong. And so it's an overreach to try to say I did.

GOLBECKAnd, Michael, on that note, we have an email from Katherine who says, "I don't care that the governor has friends. I don't care that he took gifts. I care that he gave favors in exchange for them." Is there evidence that he gave favors in exchange for the gifts?

POPEWell, he certainly set up meetings. He hosted an event at the governor's mansion. He ended up sitting next to the CEO of this company at at least one event. You know, one of the most dramatic pieces of the narrative here in the indictment happened in March 2012. And the governor is meeting with the secretary of administration to discuss the Virginia State employee health plan and ways to reduce healthcare costs.

POPENow, during the meeting, the governor pulled out some Anatabloc out of his pocket -- this is the product made by the company -- and told the secretary of administration and one of her staff members that Anatabloc had very beneficial health effects and that he personally took Anatabloc and that it was working well for him. Now, you know, that's a kind of personal endorsement with high-ranking government officials that is going to be at the heart of the prosecutor's case.

GOLBECKGo ahead, Gordon.

WITKINI think these are all good points. But I think the bar here is pretty high for the federal government. I mean, what happened here and what's alleged is certainly titillating and sort of sleazy a lot of people would say, but one of my favorite clichés in Washington -- and we can adopt it for Richmond -- is that what's shocking sometimes is not what's illegal, what's shocking is what's legal. And the difficulty in these cases -- and I've heard federal prosecutors and FBI agents speak of this, is that the quid pro quo, it must be provable that the money was exchanged for explicit government action that brought some benefit.

WITKINAnd I think the question, which Quentin and Michael have both talked about, is whether the action here was explicit in bringing benefit and whether the idea of meetings and personal endorsements crosses that threshold.

GOLBECKYou can join the conversation, as well. Do you think reforming Virginia's ethics laws should remain a top priority for Virginia State legislators? Call us at 1-800-433-8850 or email us at kojo@wamu.org. Let's take a caller now. This is Ray, from Salisbury, Md. Ray, you're on the air. Go ahead.

RAYYeah, hi, good morning. Look, I'm a Virginian by birth and inclination, although I haven't lived there for a while. But I'm not a Republican. But I'll tell you I did like Bob McDonnell and how he ran his administration when he was first elected. And he did some good things for Virginia. However, I cannot understand why anybody would get even close to the line he got to. This doesn't make any sense to me. But that's one thing. The second thing is this brings up a whole new category of things about middle class people running for office.

RAYAnd I'll tell you, if he is obviously a middle-class guy with lots and lots of debts and etcetera, etcetera. You know, middle class people can't afford that kind of stuff. And so you take out a whole category of people who probably would make good political people, and they can't do it. So we ended up with very rich people or people who have no substance at all -- I'm sorry -- have no monetary substance at all and they are the ones that run for office. And I'm not so sure that they are the people who are the best qualified. That's all I've got to say. Thanks. Take care.

GOLBECKThanks, Ray. So you raised some really interesting points. Quentin, let's start with you. This kind of leads us to wonder about McDonnell's legacy and what happens as a result of these charges. What are your thoughts on that?

KIDDWell, I mean his legacy will always include these charges. I mean he's the first governor ever to be charged like this. And so, you know, he's got an asterisk that marks him down in history. I mean this is a state that has historically produced presidents, you know, and founders of the country. And so that's his legacy, like it or not. It's a part of his legacy.

KIDDThe real question is, is he convicted and does he, you know, what's the penalty that he serves if he's convicted? I think if he wins his case here and if these charges get dismissed, you know, he's not convicted, he and his wife, then it'll be a part of his legacy but I think people will also talk about some the good he did as governor, which the caller, you know, referenced.

KIDDAnd the really interesting part of this for me is that Bob McDonnell still enjoys pretty good approval ratings for a governor who's been under a cloud of scandal for the last year in office. And, you know, so I think Virginians like him. I think Virginians want to like their governor, want to like their elected officials. But like it or not, this is a part of his legacy. I mean he's been charged with a crime.

GOLBECKMichael, what are your thoughts?

POPEGovernor McDonnell, until this scandal emerged, had a very solid reputation. I mean if you think about the transportation package that happened last year, that was historic. That was the kind of thing that a generation of political leaders in Virginia had tried and failed to do. And so, you know, until all this emerged, he had a great reputation, one that put him on the short list for V.P. People were even talking about him running for president. Now, you know, as Quentin Kidd was just saying, there's this asterisk by his name and we won't really know how to think about that until there's some resolution to this legal case.

POPEBut even then, I mean, even supposing that the charges go away or he's acquitted or they're dismissed, he would still be the governor who has been charged with these sorts of things. So, you know, maybe part of the legacy here is that there's ethics reform as a result of all of this, that there's a cap on gifts, that they change how the disclosure documents work, that there's an ethics commission. And so, you know, maybe McDonnell might end up having an indirect legacy in the ethics reform that takes place as a result of all of this.

GOLBECKAnd, Gordon, I'm going to let you follow up on that and also ask you to comment on how you think we maintain the public's attention on these issues once the scandal falls out of the news.

WITKINWell, before we get to that, I was struck in reading the indictment. And I'm in Washington, not in Richmond, so a step further away than Quentin or Michael, but I was struck reading the indictment, how many of the overt acts alleged by the government seemed to have been initiated by Mrs. McDonnell. And so I think there's a domestic relations question here, as well as a political question.

WITKINBut as I said earlier about New Jersey and Illinois, I suspect that the stain of this indictment -- whatever you think about it -- is going to be enough to push some ethics reform in Virginia. How far that goes I think is an open question. And maybe is an interesting question that could maintain some public interest in the topic because Governor McAuliffe has already made some ethics proposals, but I think there are a fair number of folks who think they don't go particularly far.

GOLBECKWell, this is a fascinating conversation and it'll be interesting to see how these things develop in the future. I'd like to thank our guests for joining us. Quentin Kidd, professor of political science and director of the Wason Center for Public Policy at Christopher Newport University. Thanks for joining us.

KIDDThank you. You guys have a good day.

GOLBECKYou, too. Michael Pope is a WAMU reporter who covers Virginia politics for Connection Newspapers. Thanks for being with us, Michael.

POPEThank you.

GOLBECKAnd Gordon Witkin is managing editor of the Center for Public Integrity, a non-profit investigative journalism organization. And he supervises the state integrity investigation. It was good to talk with you, Gordon.

WITKINThanks for having me, Jen.

GOLBECKI'm Jen Golbeck, sitting in for Kojo Nnamdi. And we'll continue the conversation after a break. Stay tuned.