MR. KOJO NNAMDI...about it. Joining us by telephone is Michael Paul Williams. He's a columnist at the Richmond Times Dispatch. He has been with the paper for more than 30 years. His columns appear on Tuesday and Friday, and his weekly video, Mike's Take, is online Wednesday. Michael Paul Williams, thank you for joining us.

MR. MICHAEL PAUL WILLIAMSThank you for having me.

NNAMDIIt's my understanding when you spoke with our producer that you were a bit surprised to learn that folks here in the nation's capital, just two hours away from Richmond, don't really know the story of the U.S. Slavery Museum.

WILLIAMSYeah. We -- when we -- first, when Doug Wilder first came up with this idea, he was seemingly well ahead of the curve when it came to the concept with having a slavery museum. He, of course, came up with the idea during a visit to Africa, visiting the Gate of No Return in Senegal, in Goree Island. And this was back in 1993. I mean, it was still somewhat novel. We heard noises about a competing museum of some sort in Washington, but, I guess, being somewhat myopic here in Richmond, we assumed that the governor was onto something original.

NNAMDIWe're talking with Michael Paul Williams -- he is a columnist for the Richmond Times Dispatch -- about the mystery, so to speak, of the U.S. Slavery Museum. We're inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. You can also send us email to kojo@wamu.org. Send us a tweet, @kojoshow, or simply go to our website, kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there. What purpose do you think a United States slavery museum could serve? 800-433-8850.

NNAMDIMichael Paul Williams, just take us back to the early 1990s when Virginia governor, Doug Wilder, went on a trip to Africa as the nation's first elected African-American governor.

WILLIAMSWell, it was an extremely exciting time. Obviously, Gov. Wilder made history being the first elected African-American governor, taking office in 1990. During that time, African heads of state visited Richmond. It -- you just -- words -- you can't put into words just how groundbreaking all of this seemed, and the idea of the slavery museum dovetailed on all that. And it had a lot of momentum based on the governor's role in history and in his reach, in his ties to Africa and just how novel the idea seemed to be. So we were quite excited about it.

NNAMDIWhy did he choose Fredericksburg as the likely location for the museum?

WILLIAMSWell, in my estimation, that's when things begin to take a turn downhill somewhat.

NNAMDIUh-oh.

WILLIAMSIt came down to, basically, bottom line. Fredericksburg offered him a sweet deal. They gave him some acreage on the banks of Rappahannock River. It's part of the Celebrate America development. And Richmond just couldn't compete on the -- on that bottom land -- line level as far as riverfront property, free riverfront property. I will say that, though it may have been the correct bottom line decision, from a historical standpoint, it was all wrong.

NNAMDIIf I were to go out to Fredericksburg today, Michael, to see the sight of the U.S. National Slavery Museum, what would I see? What would I find?

WILLIAMSYou would likely find a bunch of acreage with no real tangible sign of the plans for the property, except the Spirit Garden, which is a sculpture and which has been largely unkempt. At one time, volunteers were going out and trying to keep it clean. But we've run several photos of it, and it's really quite appalling and kind of symbolizes how the project has kind of gone askew. It's really sad.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is our number here if you'd like to join the conversation. Have you visited a slavery museum elsewhere that you would like to recommend? You can call us. Or if you live in Fredericksburg, have you been to the proposed site and can you tell us what you're feelings were when you saw what was or was not there? 800-433-8850. Michael, it's my understanding that, early on, you were excited about the museum project. You thought it was a good project for Doug Wilder to take on after his one-term governorship.

WILLIAMSYeah. I thought it was an excellent idea, not just for Gov. Wilder but for the country. I just think slavery, especially at that time, was just something that the United States refused to engage in and was still in a form of denial about. And I thought the museum would serve a tremendous purpose in driving the conversation. And I thought the museum would serve a tremendous purpose in driving the conversation. I also thought it would be a fitting capstone to his legacy.

WILLIAMSAnd he -- not -- no one can take away the political aspect of his legacy. But, frankly, I thought if he could've pulled this off, it would've been a far greater thing.

NNAMDIYou said that, beginning in 2004, 2005, you had a feeling this museum would never get built. Why?

WILLIAMSWell, my initial misgivings began in -- with the selection of the Fredericksburg site. I thought it was all wrong. By 2000 -- 2004 was when they had slated the completion of the museum, and it didn't happen. And it was pushed back and pushed back. And while the completion date was being pushed back, Gov. Wilder re-entered politics. He became involved in local Richmond politics and...

NNAMDIFirst, he was chair of a commission, an advisory commission to decide whether or not Richmond should have an elected mayor, a popularly elected mayor.

WILLIAMSYeah. Yeah.

NNAMDIAnd then, when that commission reported, as I recall, he decided that he would be a candidate popularly elected as mayor.

WILLIAMSYeah. And at some in that process, it became obvious to me anyway that Gov. Wilder was going to be the man...

WILLIAMS...that he was -- it was -- it was a -- no, I wouldn't call it a set-up. But it seemed that -- it had pretty much seemed that way. And -- come on, I mean, just -- let's be logical here. You can't serve two gargantuan masters. And, you know, you -- on one hand, you can't run the city of Richmond if you're distracted by an all-consuming project like the slavery museum, which still very much was in doubt, and you can't, you know, run a slavery museum if you're trying to run a city like Richmond, which has a lot of issues.

WILLIAMSSo it just didn't make sense to me. I mean, how he -- it -- for a young man, it would be a tremendous feat with a lot of energy involved. And for Gov. Wilder, it just seemed like he was taking on way too much for any person to take on. And it made you wonder how committed he was to seeing the slavery museum through if he would take on the task of being the mayor of Richmond.

NNAMDIIn case you're just joining us, we're talking about the mystery of the U.S. slavery museum and why, over the past 20 years, virtually nothing has happened. Our guest is Michael Paul Williams. He's a columnist of the Richmond Times Dispatch. He joins us by telephone from Richmond. On to the phones, here is Simmie (sp?) in Fredericksburg, Va. Simmie, you're on the air. Go ahead, please. Hi, Simmie. Are you there?

SIMMIEI am there.

NNAMDIGo right ahead, Simmie.

SIMMIEHello. It's a pleasure to have me on. Thank you, Kojo. I have been to the garden off of Route 3, which is also called Route 3. And it's behind Wegmans grocery store. It is so sad, Kojo, that I didn't even take a picture of the garden. I've lived here now for 26 years. I was very thrilled about hearing about the museum up and coming. It just never manifested, and it's so very sad. I still...

NNAMDISimmie, what were you expecting, hoping to see when you got there?

SIMMIEWell, because it was in its initial stages, I thought maybe I would see an enclosure, like a museum enclosure of just pictures, at least, local pictures, like Kunta Kinte, which is in Spotsylvania, his burial plot, something about the local history but nothing, you know, extravagant because it was, you know, initially created and a spot was laid out. And so I thought I'd see at least an enclosure with as much local history...

NNAMDISimmie, I guess your disappointment is shared by a lot of others. Thank you so much for your call. We're going to take a short break. When we return, we will continue our conversation with Michael Paul Williams about the mystery of the U.S. slavery museum that's supposed to be located in Fredericksburg, Va. You can still call us, 800-433-8850. Has the time for a U.S. slavery museum passed in your view?

NNAMDIIs it now unnecessary as America gets ready this week to break ground on the Smithsonian African-American History Museum? Call us, 800-433-8850. Send us a tweet, @kojoshow, or go to our website, kojoshow.org, and join the conversation there. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation about the mystery of the U.S. slavery museum. Later in the broadcast, we'll be talking about what's next now that the Maryland House of Delegate has passed the law approving gay marriage. Then it will be your turn. Right now, we're talking with Michael Paul Williams. He's a columnist at the Richmond Times Dispatch. He joins us now from studios in Richmond, Va. Michael Paul Williams, about a week or so, the organization behind the museum filed for bankruptcy. Were you or the museum's donors, for that matter, surprised?

WILLIAMSI wasn't surprised. I mean, it's clear that, to me anyway, that it's been flatlining for some time. There were -- there was a tax debt in the hundreds of thousands of dollars to the city of Fredericksburg. They were threatening to take the property. It seemed like there was no income stream, donation stream still active. It seemed like a largely dormant project on down to the website.

NNAMDIWhat do you think we can expect to learn from the bankruptcy filing?

WILLIAMSHopefully, we'll learn what happened to the money that was purported to be going in there, how it was spent, what happened to the donations. I'm sure that there are people who have donated artifacts who are very much eager to find out where their artifacts stand because they apparently have not been able to contact the museum about the status of their donation.

NNAMDIIndeed, that's a question that you can call on 800-433-8850. What sorts of guarantees do you think that those who donate or loan artifacts to a museum should get? 800-433-88550 or you can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Back to the telephones. Here is Pepper in Washington, D.C. Pepper, your turn.

PEPPERI just had a couple of comments and quick question. I actually lived in Richmond for about 14 years. I voted for the governor when he ran. I voted for the citywide ordinance for citywide elected mayor, and I supported him running. But I'm wondering if he got in over his head as far as this museum is concerned because, obviously, being the first citywide elected mayor is, you know, a serious, intense job.

PEPPERAnd I just wonder were there -- is there -- you know, were there funds or are there funds that were raised or missing or -- I just wonder, really, what happened. I mean, obviously, he couldn't handle all that, and I'm just curious about, you know...

NNAMDIWell, you...

PEPPERI -- you know, before...

NNAMDIYou should know, Pepper, that we reached out to Gov. Wilder. We haven't heard back from him. We reached out to the bankruptcy attorney in the case. We haven't heard back from the bankruptcy attorney either. But, Michael Paul Williams, Gov. Wilder seems to be hiding in plain sight. I mean, he's giving speeches. He's attending events, but, apparently, he's mostly refusing to talk about this.

WILLIAMSYes. And that's somewhat unconscionable, especially when it comes to people who, in good faith, donated their artifacts to the museum. And it has the potential to hurt future efforts of this sort. As you know, in Richmond, there is another movement afoot to establish a museum, a slavery museum and black heritage site that, frankly, has a lot more momentum at this point than the Fredericksburg project. But you have to wonder, will people dig into their pockets after the debacle that was Fredericksburg?

NNAMDIIndeed, Therbia Parker, one of the collectors of family artifacts and slave memorabilia, donated 95 items valued at $75,000, cannot get the foundation to return them. We also reached out to Therbia Parker. We're still hoping to hear back from him. But it's my understanding that there are numerous donors who are furious with Gov. Wilder, people who have been trying to get their artifacts returned but to no avail. Is that correct, Michael Paul Williams?

WILLIAMSYes. To our knowledge, that is correct, and those are artifacts that, while in his possession will not find a home in a viable project, which would hurt the Richmond effort. It just seems like it's kind of hurt the concept all around to the point where people in Richmond are even wondering whether they should attach their -- the U.S. Slavery Museum name. I mean, there could be confusion because we have these competing projects, one somewhat dormant, one a lot (unintelligible).

NNAMDIBefore I go to the phones -- there are a lot of people on the phones who'd like to talk about this -- could you tell us a little bit more about the project in Richmond? Because it's my understanding that it has a pretty optimistic timetable launched by a former member of the Richmond City Council, Delores McQuinn.

WILLIAMSYes. They're definitely trying to fast track it. They're thinking that they -- this is something that could be realized within the next few years. And there have been -- there's been momentum, piecemeal but steady. There is a Slavery Reconciliation Monument right at the site. There was the excavation of a slave jail near the site. There was the reclamation of a Negro -- free and slave Negro burial ground across the street from the site.

WILLIAMSThat site had been used as a parking lot. So people are -- I think, are serious about this. Now, that project had some of its own challenges, mainly involving transparency that community members aren't happy about. But there is an air of optimism, and it -- and it kind of points to the mistake that was Fredericksburg because I think the governor isolated himself in a place where there really wasn't any tangible slave history evidence. Richmond was a ground zero for the slave trade.

NNAMDIPepper, thank you very much for your call. For those of you who were wondering about some of the artifacts that people donated: a handwritten bill of sale for a purchase of slaves, a slave collar dating back to 1823 with a plantation name and slave ID number on it. Big names like Bill Cosby and Ben Vereen came out to support it, put up millions of dollars for it. We're trying to find out what happened to it all. On to Bill in Bethesda, Md. Bill, you're on the air. Go ahead, please. Bill is no longer on the phone, so let's go to Jeff in Washington, D.C. Jeff, your turn.

MR. JEFF HOWARDYeah. Thanks for having me on, Kojo. I am a principal with Howard+Revis Design here in Washington, D.C., and we're doing a number of projects recently on civil rights and slavery issues. And one of them that I want to call attention to, to show that this is still a very valid topic today, is the modern slavery exhibit, which is opening this week at Lincoln's Cottage, as a commemoration or celebration of emancipation through talking about human trafficking and ongoing issues of enslavement of people today worldwide.

NNAMDIWhere is Lincoln's Cottage?

HOWARDLincoln's Cottage is up by the veterans home, Rock Creek Cemetery up North Capitol.

NNAMDII know exactly where it is, yes. It's...

HOWARDYeah, and they have just opened this, and they are working this project. And the donor, the primary donor, was Polaris Project, which, I think...

NNAMDIOkay.

HOWARD...is based in Richmond, who are at service to basically intervening in human trafficking and trying to bring it to an end. So it's a modern-day abolitionist story. And I just wanted to make a plug for how contemporary relevance is meaningful to this discussion.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call and for passing on that information. You know, Michael Paul Williams, is this a story of financial mismanagement, whether intentional or unintentional, or is this just a story of the challenge of raising money in difficult economic times?

WILLIAMSWell, this project pre-dates the recession. Now, mind you, yes, after 2000 -- and it started to gather momentum in 2001 -- we weren't -- it wasn't as thriving as the '90s. But I think it -- you know, time will tell, with the bankruptcy filing, about how well things were managed. I think it's a sad story of something that had so much potential, a great idea that will go unrealized. And I don't think anyone really thinks this will come off anymore, except perhaps the governor.

NNAMDIOn to Nick in Springfield, Va. Nick, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

NICKHello, Kojo. Thanks for having me on.

NNAMDIYou're welcome.

NICKAll right. I don't mean to sound too terribly inflammatory -- and I know this is going to come off as that -- but I feel like America doesn't really like to celebrate any of its darker histories, much in the same way, you know, we rarely talk about the plight of the American Indian. Is there a chance that there's been a lot of kind of -- nobody wants to acknowledge this plan or be a part of it because it's a part of the history that Americans tend to glaze over in history classes (unintelligible)...

NNAMDIWell, a couple of things about that, Nick, one is that the Museum of the American Indian on The Mall here is quite popular, and two is, arguably the most popular museum in Washington, is the Holocaust Museum here in Washington, both of which have dealt with what you describe as darker parts of history. But allow me to have Michael Paul Williams respond. Was there any significant pushback on this, Michael Paul Williams, from people who didn't think it would be a good idea?

WILLIAMSI don't recall a lot of verbal pushback. I mean, the pushback may have occurred in the pocketbook, although we were getting some optimistic reports of the level of fundraising that had actually been accomplished at some point. You know, in the time since the governor hatched this idea, about two decades ago, I've seen in Richmond a lot of more of willingness to delve into this history. I think, right now, the main problem is raising the money, not attitudinal. I think there's been an increased embrace in the idea of exploring this aspect of our history, particularly in Richmond.

NNAMDIAnd, Nick, thank you very much for your call. Along the same theme, here is Bill in Bethesda, Md. Bill, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BILLThanks, Kojo. I wanted to note the importance of the name slavery museum because I'm an old guy who started out with doing civil rights things in Chicago in the '60s. And even then, and almost more now, people -- white Americans don't want to talk about slavery, and even with my black friends, it's not -- it's something that makes people very uncomfortable. Similar -- I agree to the Holocaust Museum, which also took a long time to get built, even though the financial resources behind it were much greater.

BILLAnd my concern and my focus on slavery is that the effort doesn't get sanitized in the way that the Martin Luther King Jr. statue started out with a guy looking determined and even angry and ended up with a guy who is kind of a -- I don't want to be derogatory -- but a guy who's statue was sanitized, I think, just like the slave buildings at Mount Vernon are sanitized in a lot of ways. So I hope that somehow the magic that Wilder really did have and this effort originally had can stay -- keep the gut focus on it. I'm delighted to hear that that's still being considered.

NNAMDIWell, that's a discussion in a way for another time, Bill, but thank you very much for your call. Michael Paul Williams, some big names were affiliated with the project in the beginning. Bill Cosby, we mentioned, Ben Vereen, have we heard from any of them?

WILLIAMSNot lately. You know, it's very much up in the air whether they are still associated with the project or not. I can only assume since there is -- it's in such dire economic state that one could assume that they are no longer involved.

NNAMDIWe got a note from the Virginia Historical Society announcing the launch of Unknown No Longer, a Virginia slave name database. You can find it at unknownnolonger.vahistorical.org. Unknownnolonger.vahistorical.org, they're having an event this week that's free and open to the public at 7 p.m. on Tuesday at The Lyceum at Alexandria's History Museum, so you might want to check on that.

NNAMDISeems this is a cautionary tale for would-be museums and those who may donate to them. I guess that's the lesson that Delores McQuinn and others looking at this new museum will have to draw from, Michael Paul Williams.

WILLIAMSWell, I would hope that they would make it more of a grassroots effort. You know, I'm not sure if this should be a top-down kind of project anyway with -- driven strictly by celebrities. Of course, you want celebrity money. But, I think, if it's to succeed in Richmond, it needs buy-in from the entire community, all segments of it -- business, academic grassroots. And perhaps they're going to have to scale it down, you know, given the economy.

WILLIAMSBut, you know, I can't underscore that even a scaled-down effort would be better than no effort at all, and I would, once again, say that Richmond is the natural place for it.

NNAMDIAnd for those of you who are looking for a slavery museum to investigate, we got this email from Ryan in Arlington, who says, "I would like to recommend the museum of slavery and emancipation in Nassau, Bahamas. It is well curated and a fascinating introduction to slavery related to but outside of the continental U.S. If anyone listening happens to be in the Caribbean and would like to do something more than just buy jewelry, drink and sunbathe, I say they would be well served to visit and support this establishment." Probably a good idea. Michael Paul Williams, thank you for joining us.

WILLIAMSThank you for having me, Kojo.

NNAMDIMichael Paul Williams is a columnist at the Richmond Times Dispatch. He's been a reporter there for more than 30 years. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, your turn. We're looking at what's next now that the Maryland House of Delegates has passed the law approving gay marriage. You can start calling now, 800-433-8850. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.