MR. KOJO NNAMDISame-sex marriage moved a step closer to becoming a reality in Maryland last week after the House of Delegates passed a bill that would allow gay couples to marry. The state Senate and the governor also expected to pass and sign the law that would make same-sex marriage legal in Maryland. But many people in the state's religious community, especially in African-American churches and the Catholic Church, still oppose gay marriage and are vowing to continue their fight against it.

MR. KOJO NNAMDISpeaking from their pulpits over the weekend, many African-American clergy members preached opposition to same-sex marriage, saying it tears at the fabric of the nation's values and calling on their parishioners to return to the fundamentals of scripture and keep up the fight. With the bill likely to become law, possibly by the end of this week, opponents say their best hope for stopping same-sex marriage is a statewide referendum.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIThat would mean collecting enough signatures to put the measure before the voters in November. Joining us in studio to discuss this is Hamil Harris. He is a reporter, the religion reporter, with The Washington Post. Hamil, always a pleasure.

MR. HAMIL HARRISIt's a pleasure to be back here. It's been a long time.

NNAMDIIt's been a long time, way too long. And joining us by phone from The Baltimore Sun is Andy Green, opinion editor at The Baltimore Sun. Andy Green, thank you for joining us.

MR. ANDREW A. GREENAlways a pleasure, Kojo.

NNAMDIAndy, the Maryland House of Delegates passed a bill that would legalize same-sex marriage by a vote of 72-67. What is the significance of that vote, and what's likely to happen to the measure in the state Senate?

GREENLast year, the House of Delegates had been the sticking point in getting this legislation through. So the fact that they were able to pull together the majority of votes -- in fact, one more vote than the bare minimum needed for a majority -- means this is most likely going to become law, perhaps, as you said, by the end of the week. It does still need to be passed by the Senate. The Senate passed a virtually identical bill last year, and so, theoretically, that should go smoothly and fairly easily.

GREENAlthough, I would caution to say that nothing in this -- with this issue has gone quite the way anyone has expected it thus far, so let's not count our chickens before they hatch.

NNAMDISpeaking of it not going the way anyone expected it, Gov. Martin O'Malley was our guest on The Politics Hour this past Friday. He was supposed to join us in studio -- opted to join us by telephone because of what was going on in the...

GREENYeah.

NNAMDI...General Assembly at the time -- and, often during the course of the discussion, seemed a bit distracted.

GREENA bit distracted, yeah. There was a lot going on on Friday. The leadership in the House and the governor's legislative team were working right up until the last minute to try to pull together all of the votes. And there was some uncertainty, even as the day went on, about whether they were going to have it because one of the delegates who was a planned yes vote on the bill had to be taken to the hospital and was actually quite ill and unable to come back.

GREENSo there was some concern about whether they were going to get it through. They accepted some amendments toward the end that were able -- were enough to flip one vote. And it turned out in the end, they had, as I said, one more than they needed.

NNAMDIIt's your turn. You can join in on this conversation by calling 800-433-8850. What should you think -- what do you think should be in the future of the gay marriage legislation passed by the House in the General Assembly in Maryland this past weekend? 800-433-8850. You can send us a tweet, @kojoshow, email to kojo@wamu.org, or go to our website, kojoshow.org. Offer your comment there.

NNAMDIHamil, you've been covering the opposition to gay marriage in the religious community, particularly the African-American churches in Prince George's County. What's the reaction there to last week's vote in Annapolis in possible passage of this law?

HARRISWell, I think that, for the first time ever, there are some new developments. I mean, obviously, you have the traditional opposition by the church community, you know, citing the Bible and reasons for -- to be against same-sex marriage. But what you had -- you talked about Gov. O'Malley. Well, what's -- interestingly, he testifies -- next to him was a minister from Prince George's County, Rev. Delman Coates.

HARRISNow, he is a minister who has 8,000 members and has a degree from Harvard and Columbia. Not to say that makes a difference, but he was representing a new generation of ministers, and the same minister who had -- you know, that protested against Black Entertainment Television for what was on there. He was in support of this legislation where you had older ministers pretty much being lockstep with the -- what they believed in previous years. What happened is that this vote was very, very close.

HARRISAnd even within the African-American church community in Prince George's County, there was division, where some say, well, you know, we can't have just that happen. Or you have some of the younger ministers and even parishioners saying, wait a minute, you know, is it really -- do we need to focus this much energy on stopping this? Or could there be other issues to deal with?

NNAMDII'm glad you brought that up because in our conversation with the governor, we asked him whether he saw a generational divide in how people, as a whole, looked at this issue, and he said, yes, definitely. You say there also seems to be a generational divide among ministers in the African-American religious community.

HARRISWell, what's interesting, again -- and, again, as a journalist, it's good to find old-fashioned just two sides of every story. And, again, I just went out yesterday. And, again, we started at one church and went to another church. For example, at, you know, Forestville Redeemer Baptist Church, Rev. Nathaniel Thomas who has been involved in many...

NNAMDIOld friend of mine, yeah.

HARRISYeah. Rev. Thomas is for Northeast Washington, a lot of different things, you know, things, and so he's in the pulpit preaching about, you know, this is bigger than same-sex. This is about saving a generation. So he has a little baby in his hands, you know, showing this child. You know, who's trying to save the children? Well, I talked to the child's mother, and the child's mother said, well, I don't know we should be judgmental.

HARRISSo even within the church, you don't have -- the prop for the -- you know, it was different than what the mother was saying. And then in the church, a young person came out to me and says, you know, I'm still dealing with this issue. And I said, well, tell me. And so, well, you know, we've seen people, same-sex couples come up, and I don't know should the church be involved. Now, again, they're not saying right or wrong morality.

HARRISBut they're saying, is this an issue that the church should be involved in? And I think that's even what Rev. Coates was saying, separation of church and state, so it's interesting.

NNAMDIOn to the phones. Here is Gary in Washington, D.C. Gary, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

GARYHi, Kojo. You know, the bill in question may contravene the decision in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in two particular ways. First of all, once same-gender marriage is permitted in Maryland, a referendum would not be permitted under that decision. And, secondly, in some places in Maryland, at least Montgomery County in particular, homosexual couples have certain rights that are afforded them.

GARYFor example, if you get married in the District of Columbia, and, you know, and, say, Takoma, and then you want to have a reception in Takoma Park, they can't -- you know, they can't just say, no, no. We don't agree with gay marriage, so you can't have it here. That would be illegal. But this bill would say -- would take away those rights, and I think that contravenes the Ninth Circuit decision as well.

NNAMDIWell, it's funny that you should bring that up, Gary, because one of the issues we raised with Gov. O'Malley was that no referendum was permitted in the District of Columbia because it was said that it would be in violation of the District's human rights law. The governor said there is no such obstacle in the state of Maryland. But, Andy Green, what our caller seems to be suggesting is that the obstacle might not be in state legislation but in specific jurisdictions.

GREENWell, there are certainly local laws that might affect some aspects of this. But the Ninth Circuit decision that the caller is talking about -- this is a case out of California to do with the Proposition 8 law that was passed there in 2010. This was a constitutional amendment in California that overturned that state's Supreme Court's decision legalizing gay marriage there. So the status of that lawsuit is a federal district court judge threw out Proposition 8 on broad constitutional grounds.

GREENAn appellate court just recently ruled, upholding that decision but on more narrow grounds that seem pretty specific to the situation in California. Ultimately, this probably goes to the Supreme Court. And so that could theoretically affect the state of play in Maryland and everywhere else, but that's all pretty speculative at this point.

NNAMDIAnd, Hamil, you covered this as this was going on in the District of Columbia when we had ministers, some of them based in Maryland, coming over to the District...

HARRISRight, right, right. I remember Harry Jackson and Hope Christian Church and Derek McCoy exchanged names and stuff. But I think it's interesting, even what happened in Maryland this past week, and it's that the ministers are saying all roads lead to the referendum. And when you look at California, they brought in a referendum. They got Proposition 8. Proposition 8 was overturned, and they -- you can't -- you realize, where is it now?

HARRISAnd so it seems that all roads will go to the Supreme Court on this issue because, again, it's not like if the bill will pass in Maryland and sign into law. When it's signed, what will be the next step? And so, again, I think that's the big issue now. What will happen at the Supreme Court?

GREENThe situation in Maryland is a little different in California. Maryland Supreme Court -- the Court of Appeals ruled several years ago that an existing law in Maryland's books defining marriage as between a man and a woman is constitutional. So, for the time being, we don't have quite the same situation that they did in California. And what our referendum process here is is also very different from California. We're not talking about...

NNAMDIStep back and talk about that for a second, Andy Green, because exactly what would it take to get the referendum on the November ballot to overturn same-sex marriage, assuming it is approved by the end of this week or so?

GREENThe opponents of the bill would have a short period of time to come up with...

HARRISIs it 30 days, Andy? Is it...

GREENThirty days for the first batch of signatures, 60 days for all of the signatures. And the number they need is based on a percentage of votes cast in the last gubernatorial elections. I believe, if I recall, the magic number is something like 54,000, but it's thought that that will probably not be a huge hurdle. Previously, people had a lot of trouble getting referenda on the ballot in Maryland.

GREENBut last year, opponents of the Maryland DREAM Act, which gives in-state tuition to illegal immigrants under certain circumstances here, were able to quite easily exceed the number using some, you know, social media and some new Internet tools to make the process easier. And the assumption is that they will combine forces with others on the gay marriage issue and achieve the same thing.

GREENBesides, which, you know, if you, you know -- there is already the organizing force as we're talking about in a number of these large churches where the ministers and many people -- although, as you said, not everyone in the congregation opposes this issue. So I think most people figure they will be able to get on the ballot pretty easily.

NNAMDIAndy Green is an opinion editor with The Baltimore Sun. He joins us by phone from The Baltimore Sun. And Hamil Harris joins us in our Washington studio. He is the religion reporter with The Washington Post. It's your turn. Call us at 800-433-8850. You can prognosticate. What do you think the faith of gay marriage will be if it ends up on the Maryland ballot in November? 800-433-8850. Here is Andy in Frederick, Md. Andy, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ANDYHi, Kojo. Long-time listener, first time caller.

NNAMDIThanks.

ANDYThank you for having me.

NNAMDIYou're welcome.

ANDYI just -- I had two points, and I think I really only have time for one. And what I'd like to address is just some of the sort of religious-based arguments against same-sex marriage. The Proposition 8 ruling in the Ninth Circuit went to great lengths to address the concept of marriage as an important label, not just in terms of the legal status but in terms of the societal status, you know, the number of different forms that we have to check where, are you married, are you single.

NNAMDIYep.

ANDYWhat -- you know what I'm saying. That's an issue. And then the other issue for me is just the inherent contradiction where, you know, so many times, the Old Testament is invoked as being, you know, forbidding same-sex marriage because it calls homosexual activity an abomination. Yet there are multiple times where slavery itself seems to be endorsed, if not sanctioned, the buying and selling of, you know, human beings as property. Those are my two questions.

NNAMDIThe doctrinal question, Hamil Harris.

HARRISYou know, it's interesting that the past two days, I've had -- I had a story on Saturday about African-Americans in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and this great debate...

NNAMDIYep, I saw that.

HARRIS...about the whole curse of Cain and how blacks were denied the priesthood for 136 years because of Old Testament, or in Old Testament scripture in the Book of Mormon. And then now you have a growing -- in Anacostia you have a church, over 700 people, more than half the people, including the leaders, are African-American. And then you have -- the next day, we deal with the whole issue of a minister saying -- citing Old Testament Book of Leviticus, the issue of same-sex marriage.

HARRISAnd then you have people saying, well, wait a minute. What do we say in the New Testament? So, once again, the Bible is being bandied back and forth. But then I talked to one little usher, and the usher asked the question, pro or con? She says, can we focus on other issues? If you go around that church in Forestville, you see a lot of flowers on posts where people have died, have been killed, young folks gunned down and...

NNAMDIBy violence.

HARRISBy violence. And some people seem to think that -- can the legislature focus on additional issues that's going to make a difference in the lives of other people? So, I think, for one, whether you're pro or con, people want other things to come out of Annapolis than just this bill.

NNAMDIAndy, thank you very much for your call. Andy Green, what is your prognostication if same-sex marriage ends up on the ballot in November? What...

GREENOh, boy.

NNAMDI...kind of statistics are you looking at to predict its odds of passing?

GREENYour guess is as good as mine. All of the polling that I've seen is very closely divided. It's, you know, generally speaking, pretty close to 50-50 in the polling. The Washington Post just polled on this recently, so has Gonzales Marketing Strategies out of Annapolis. Both of them found slightly more people in favor of gay marriage than opposed, but very close, you know, either within the margin...

NNAMDIOK. You're going to have the presidential election.

GREENYeah.

NNAMDIYou're going to have the so-called DREAM Act, the referendum about that that will allow in-state tuition for illegal immigrants. If you also have same-sex marriage, what do you think that will mean for voter turnout?

GREENWell, the presidential election is almost certain to get us one of the highest voter turnouts that we will, you know, ever have in the state. It's -- this kind of race is going to bring people out. In particular, though, it's likely to increase turnout among African-Americans, who, polls consistently show, are -- at least a majority of them -- are in opposition to same-sex marriage, at least at this point, in Maryland.

GREENSo that could have an impact. A lot of people think that that's part of why Proposition 8 succeeded in California four years ago. And the DREAM Act, I think, probably also works somewhat against the advocates for gay marriage in that that issue is also polling about 50-50. But the people who are opposed to it, I think, are generally much more animated than the people who support it. So if that's going to drive turnout at all, I think it may have some negative spillover effect as far as the push for gay marriage...

NNAMDIWhat are you predicting, Hamil?

HARRISWell, I think that -- I think Andy is right. It's too close to call. But I think what's interesting is to look at the behavior of the Democratic lawmakers. I mean, again, some people in the church community says, we are very loyal to the Democratic Party. We fought hard to get them. Now, they elected Bob Ehrlich, and all these other things in the past, and how, you know, they felt this sense of betrayal.

HARRISAnd sometimes you even hear people saying about, in the White House, where has the president been? You know, does he come to church? Does he not? You know, the whole thing with that.

NNAMDIMm hmm.

HARRISBut at the same time, you -- what you don't see is the Republican Party really sending any olive branch to, you know, African-Americans and -- to say, hey, you know, we want you. And so I think, at the end of the day, the Democrats seem to fight each other, but they all seem to remain in the same tent.

NNAMDIHow that will evolve in the issue of gay marriage, you're saying, we don't know. So...

HARRISYeah.

NNAMDI...here is John in Baltimore, Md., with another kind of question. John, your turn.

JOHNHi. Yeah. I actually -- I have sort of a two-part question. My first question is about the actual wording of the bill because there hasn't seemed to have been -- to be much talk about that. And, specifically, I'm wondering if there is an exemption for religious institutions. In other words, if this bill is passed, would it require, say, a minister to, you know...

HARRISNo.

JOHN...follow through with the gay marriage?

NNAMDIHamil?

HARRISNo, it doesn't. It has never had that. I think that's when the -- you know, sometime people use scare tactics and fear tactics, and some people say, they're going to make us marry people with it. That bill -- the bill has never said that. And, again, you know, that's just misinformation. But, again, I don't -- maybe -- I don't know the specific language, and I knew someone was going to ask me about that 'cause I just wasn't ready.

NNAMDIAndy?

GREENYeah. The -- in fact, the language was strengthened this year to make sure it's not only just that ministers don't have to marry anyone they don't want to, which is already the case. You know, ministers or priests or whatever can refuse to marry two people for basically any reason if they don't want to. If they don't think this couple is meant to be together or they don't want to do an interfaith marriage...

NNAMDINo pants on the ground in this church.

GREENYeah. But this is all a question of what the state recognizes. So that's always been the case in this legislation. This year, they also strengthened the religious exemption clauses in a number of ways to make sure that, you know, church-affiliated organizations aren't hit with discrimination lawsuits for refusing to recognize gay marriages for other purposes or for not -- you know, like, say, the Catholic Church doesn't want to rent out its hall for a gay wedding reception. They can't get sued for that. There are protections against that sort of thing, too.

NNAMDISure. I think that may answer the question that Sandy in Reston, Va., has, but, Sandy, ask it yourself.

SANDYYes, it pretty much does. But I wonder why it's never mentioned, the -- instead of using the word marriage, or in addition to using the word marriage, using civil ceremony for people who are gay who want to be married. I am heterosexual. I have no issue with gays becoming a couple, but I never hear people include civil ceremony.

NNAMDIBut do you object to the use of the word marriage when it applies to gay couples?

SANDYI think it makes a bigger argument that...

NNAMDIOh, I see.

SANDY...people are having problems with. I think people have problems with the word marriage.

NNAMDIIt's the semantics, Hamil Harris.

HARRISI think what many people don't know, including myself, is when you do examine the word civil union versus marriage and when a state passes the law, what will change? What does this mean now? How will the world change in terms of what couples are allowed to have now? And what will they be able to have under the new law?

NNAMDII'm afraid we're almost out of time, but, Andy Green, I have to ask you about this. This week marked the return of Kevin "KAL" Kallaugher. He's...

GREENYes.

NNAMDI...been the editorial cartoonist at The Baltimore Sun for many years. He left in 2006 amid cost-cutting. And it's my understanding that the main reason he came back -- or one of them -- had to do with a phone call or an email from you.

GREENYep. I did recruit him back. We're very lucky to have him. He stayed in Baltimore, and so we got together and talked about the possibility. And we're very, very excited to welcome him back.

NNAMDIBut he left as a result of cost-cutting. Does this mean that his coming back could be an indication for the future that…

GREENWell, times are not so dire as they once were, so we're still alive and kicking out here.

NNAMDIKAL had a lot of fun in his -- during his time at The Sun, lampooning Bob Ehrlich with his impressive head of hair and William Donald Schaefer. What do you...

GREENYeah. And, of course, Ehrlich is now a columnist for us, so I don't know how that's going to work out.

HARRISBut it's -- but he brings a bigger question. It seems like, with the election coming up, they're bringing a lot of people back. I think, newspapers, in cost-cutting, are realizing that sometimes you throw out the baby with the bath water. You may need to bring some of these babies back.

NNAMDIExactly right. Hamil Harris is a reporter, the religion reporter now with The Washington Post. Hamil, always a pleasure.

HARRISIt's a blessing.

NNAMDIAndy Green is opinion editor of The Baltimore Sun. Andy, always a pleasure also.

GREENGood talking to you.

NNAMDIThank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.