MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Some people call it application inflation. Others say it's a full-blown arms race in college admissions. Last spring, Harvard University reported a record-high 35,000 applicants and accepted a record-low 6.2 percent of those students. This week, a dean of admissions in California resigned after admitting he'd been doctoring the test scores of incoming students in reports to the press to make his school look better in the college rankings.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIThe rise in applications at schools across the country and the pressure to attract top students is fueling a new debate about whether it's time to rethink the college admission system. While students send out more and more applications and colleges pore through them to figure out who really wants to come, some education experts say the growing competition is overshadowing our nation's educational mission.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIJoining me to talk about the challenges facing both schools and students is Sharon Alston, vice provost for undergraduate enrollment at American University. Sharon Alston, thank you so much for joining us.

DR. SHARON ALSTONThank you for having me.

NNAMDIAlso in studio with us is Shannon Gundy, director of undergraduate admissions at the University of Maryland. Shannon Gundy, thank you for joining us.

MS. SHANNON GUNDYThank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

NNAMDIAnd joining us from studios in New York City is Lloyd Thacker, director of The Education Conservancy. Lloyd Thacker, thank you for joining us.

MR. LLOYD THACKERHonored to be here.

NNAMDIYou, too, can join our conversation. Simply call us at 800-433-8850. Do you have a child who's applying to college? How is the process different than it was when you applied, or how difficult are you finding it, period? 800-433-8850. You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. You can go to our website, kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there, or simply send us a tweet, @kojoshow.

NNAMDIShannon Gundy, tell us about the admissions numbers at the University of Maryland. How many applications are you processing right now for this fall's freshman class, and how many students are likely to accept?

GUNDYSo far, we've received about 25,000 applications for admission. We're anticipating that we will enroll a freshman class of a little less than 4,000, about 3,975 students.

NNAMDISince you are a state school, what role do demographic trends play in your applications?

GUNDYIt's interesting that you ask that. This year, we find that our application numbers are down slightly, and that's a direct result of the demographics of the state of Maryland. As a state institution, we certainly do attract a pretty good number of in-state residents. It's about equal number of in-state and out-of-state students that apply for admission. And we are -- of course, are stricter in our admissions standards for out-of-state students. But because the trend in demographics for 18-year-olds in Maryland is decreasing, we're finding that our application numbers are following suit.

NNAMDIWhat are you looking for in assembling a freshman class for next fall? How do you figure out how many students to accept to get enough but not too many in the next freshman class?

GUNDYIf I had the precise and exact answer for that, I'd be a very wealthy woman. We try to look at trends over the past few years to look to see what the yield rate is, and that's the number of students that actually accept our offer of admission to see if there are any trends that we can identify that will help us predict what the number will be for the coming year. And then we have to do just like everyone else and look around us and see what's happening in the world, what's happening in the economy and how we think those things are going to influence student decisions to enroll.

NNAMDISharon Alston, American University recently opened a new visitor center for high school students and their families, and you've got a branding campaign going as well. How do you use those to spark students' interest in applying to A.U.?

ALSTONWell, the campus visit is probably one of the most important factors in the process by which students decide where they want to apply. It's an opportunity for the student to see themselves in the picture and to learn firsthand what the institution is like. So we are very much using our campus visitor center to connect students to what we think is most important for them to know about A.U., and that is that we're looking for students who are smart, passionate, focused and engaged.

ALSTONAnd so the whole visit center is designed to convey those messages and to help students understand what types of students we have here and how they can see themselves fitting in to the A.U. community.

NNAMDIWhat do your application numbers look like, and how many do you want or need to get the freshman class you're looking for?

ALSTONWe are looking at an overall freshman class of about 1,575 new first-year students this year. Our application pool is about -- is consistent about where it was last year. We've got about 17,000 applicants in our pool this year.

NNAMDIAnd, Lloyd Thacker, you have become a crusader for reducing what some people are calling an arms race in college admissions. How would you describe the general state of the college application process today?

THACKERWell, that's a generous description of what I'm trying to do, and I think I need to say while Sharon and Shannon had institutional priorities and criteria to serve, I'm more interested in looking at how institutions' individual actions collectively impact education in America. So if we'd look at the system of college admissions, it has changed radically during the past 30 years. Led by U.S. News and World Report's rankings, the commercialization of college admissions has created -- has played a kind of a key role in this costly educational transition.

THACKERWhat was once a system self-governed by a set of kind of commonly, loosely-held educational criteria, it has become one in which rank status and prestige are now proxies for quality. And as a result, this competition to be selective among colleges and to be selected among students is undermining and threatening the public interest role of higher ed, the health and identity of many colleges and distorting the way education is both perceived and pursued amongst students, colleges and high schools.

NNAMDIGlad you brought that up because, as we all know, earlier this week, the admissions dean at Claremont McKenna College, a small liberal arts school in Southern California, resigned after admitting that, for six years, he'd been inflating the SAT scores of the incoming class that he sent to publications, like U.S. News and World Report, for use in its college rankings. What does that say about the pressure colleges feel to look good in the rankings? I'll start with you, Lloyd Thacker.

THACKERWell, I think that when rankings become important for measurements of self-worth, they tend to make us do things that, as educator, we wouldn't normally want to do. And there's tremendous pressure on the part of trustees and presidents to measure success by improved rank.

NNAMDISharon Alston?

ALSTONI would have to agree with Lloyd. I think that there need to be other ways that that we measure quality and what makes for good institutional experience. I think that it's the national survey for student engagement, for instance, that's a survey that is -- comes out of a university in the Midwest. I can't remember the name. But they look at things like student engagement, student interaction with faculty, student interaction within the community, rigor of the curriculum.

ALSTONThey look at the extent to which students are academically involved in the analysis of subject material. There have to be other ways that that really measure in a substantive way what the quality of the undergraduate student experience is. So I have to agree with Lloyd.

NNAMDIShannon Gundy?

GUNDYI agree with both Lloyd and Sharon. And, you know, it's interesting. Sharon and I were talking before we got started about...

NNAMDIYou're not allowed to do that.

NNAMDIWhy did you do that? We're going to start separating guests before the show. But go ahead.

GUNDYI know. I know. Interestingly, it's difficult to imagine the kind of pressure that you as an admission officer feel that you're under in order to do something like that. When calmer heads prevail, I think all of us can agree that the pressure that students feel and the pressure that institutions feel is not reasonable. It's something that we sort of need to join forces on and ratchet back to a reasonable level.

GUNDYOf course, it's a competitive process. It's going to be a competitive process, but it doesn't need to be a nerve-wrecking process for the institution or for the student.

NNAMDIIn case you're just joining us, we're talking about college admissions and more specifically rethinking college admissions and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. Did you or someone else in your family apply to college recently? How many applications did you send out, and how many acceptances did you get? You can also go to our website, kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there, send us a tweet, @kojoshow, or email to kojo@wamu.org. Let's go to Larry in Washington, D.C. Larry, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

LARRYGood afternoon.

NNAMDIGood afternoon.

LARRYI am calling to join the conversation, and I am from the Gates Millennium Scholars Program at the United Negro College Fund, where we are seeing very similar types of numbers among our applicants. We select 1,000 students annually, and this year, out of almost 45,000 registrants, we have 27,000 students who have submitted an application. And like my colleagues, of whom I know all of them, who the former admissions officer, we have the challenge of sorting as well from very highly qualified applicants who are desperately seeking entrance to college and the resources to pay for it.

NNAMDILloyd Thacker, there's been a decade-long trend of increasing numbers of applications at the country's top colleges, and you just heard Larry saying increasing numbers also at the UNCF. How much of that is demographics, and how much is growing competition?

THACKERWell, I think it's a combination of both, to tell you the truth. The elite colleges are doing a great job of marketing themselves and spending more money than ever before so that they have the privilege of saying no to more students. But you also have demographic shifts, and the people that Larry -- the students that Larry is dealing with is a particularly surging demographic group.

NNAMDIAnd, Larry, thank you very much for your call.

LARRYThank you.

NNAMDIYou, too, can call us. 800-433-8850 is the number. Or you can simply go to our website, kojoshow.org, and join the conversation there. We've been talking about U.S. News and World Report's annual ranking of colleges and universities. But, Shannon, do you think there's an increased focus on rankings and selectivity? Obviously, there is. But since there is or because there is, how does that affect what families think they're looking for in a school?

GUNDYIt's interesting. I found that in my conversations with individuals, it's very difficult to pull people back to a place where they're really talking about looking for a school that's the right fit for them. A lot of times, I think, parents are encouraging their students to apply and be admitted to schools that make good conversation at cocktail parties. You know, it's not the case that there is one school that is the exact right fit for everyone student.

GUNDYThere are many schools where students can be happy and satisfied. And until we reach the point where people are truly looking for what's in their best interest and not in their best conversation, I think it's going to be difficult to pull this back into a realistic perspective.

NNAMDISharon Alston, is that one of the functions that the new visitor center here at American University is expected to perform to indicate not just to parents but especially to students whether we're really not talking about ranking here, we're really not talking about prestige here, we're talking about you living in this place for four years and how much you like it?

ALSTONYeah. Yes. I like to say that when students are choosing a home, that they have to remember that they're -- when they're choosing a school, they're choosing a home for their next four years. They're going to be living on campus. They're going to be living with their friends. They're going to be taking showers in the residence halls. It's a home, and so one of the things that we emphasize is fit.

ALSTONAnd, in fact, in our application this year, we actually added a supplementary essay in which we asked students to indicate to us basically how much they knew about A.U. and to tell us about their fit with the university. I have a friend who is a former college counselor, as I am as well. But I often like to quote my colleague because he says, remember, this is a match, it's not a prize. And so students have to remember it's really all about the fit. And I have to agree with Shannon.

ALSTONThere are multiple schools where a student can be very happy. It's about doing the research. It's going to be on the numbers, doing the visits and just figuring out where you fit.

NNAMDIWell, I must admit that when I spoke to a freshman class at American University a few years ago and I thought I would surprise them by rocking go-go legend Chuck Brown, they were all into it. They all knew about it already. So, obviously, they felt that they fit in Washington, D.C. But, Shannon, can you talk about the pressure to look good in the rankings? Do you feel like you have to boost applications for the sake of increasing selectivity?

GUNDYFortunately, I work in an institution that, I think, has a very balanced perspective. We, of course, want to be the best institution that we can be, and we want to make sure that people understand who we are and the benefits of University of Maryland education. But I personally don't feel the pressure to build our application numbers for the purpose of denying students and increasing our prestige. And I think that's a really beneficial position to be in.

NNAMDIDo you feel that pressure here at American University, Sharon Alston?

ALSTONI have to agree with my colleague, Shannon. I feel very fortunate to work at a university again that cares about finding that best fit student for American University.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. If you have called, stay on the line. When we come back, we will get to your call. But you can also go to our website, kojoshow.org. Do you think there's an arms race in college admissions? Have you felt the effects? You can also send us a tweet, @kojoshow, or email to kojo@wamu.org. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking about college admissions today and the likely rethinking that might be necessary for the whole college admissions process. We're talking with Shannon Gundy, director of undergraduate admissions at the University of Maryland. Sharon Alston is vice provost for undergraduate enrollment at American University, and Lloyd Thacker, who joins us from studios in New York City, is director of The Education Conservancy.

NNAMDIWe're taking your calls at 800-433-8850. What changes would you like to see in the college admission system? Lloyd, you've been involved in the national debate over potential reforms in college admissions. At a conference hosted last year by your group in the University of Southern California, admissions officials reportedly expressed concern about the growing competitiveness of the admissions process, saying it serves more to advance the interest of individual colleges and universities than to serve the students or the country's educational well-being. How so?

THACKERWell, when you look at the impact of rank steering -- and it's a word I use to describe the kinds of behaviors that colleges engage in to improve rank -- collectively, across the nation, we have more applications than ever before. We have more money being spent by colleges to market recruit and enroll than ever before. We have more stratification of college-going rates across income groups, more students being denied admissions. We have lower yields among admitted students.

THACKERWe have higher levels of public cynicism about higher ed, more questionable behavior among college officials and students as they try to be selective and to be selected. And what's really troubling is that there's a drastic shift in the use of financial aid from meeting the needs of students to attracting the most desirable students who happen to be upper income. As a result, some students are being denied opportunities while other students who don't need subsidies are being subsidized and money -- lots of money is being left on the table of families that can afford to pay. So we've got some real problems.

THACKERIt's interesting when you get a group of professionals in a room together to talk about what's troubling them. What's encouraging and scary at the same time is that these people want to do a better job of serving the needs of students. That's why they're attracted to this great profession. However, they're constrained by priorities established by their presidents and their trustees, and they -- they're forced to do things that, as educators, they would not really want to do. And so it was a fascinating meeting.

THACKERWe have a report of recommendations, and we're moving forward with them. The real question is not where you stand in the rankings. But what is your stance on the rankings? This is an educational opportunity for colleges to demonstrate leadership, and some are doing so.

NNAMDIWe'll see how that evolves. Here is Linda in Rockville, Md. Linda, your turn.

LINDAYes. Hi, Kojo, I just wanted to say I agree with your gentleman presenter. I've worked in higher education for many years, including a time at the University of Maryland. I'm glad to hear that Shannon says things are changing. But I can tell you 10 years ago, 12 years ago, under President Mote, it was a really different story. Just one little anecdote, there's a TRIO program that exists at the University of Maryland that was in place at that point in time.

LINDAThat's a program that's a federally funded program to help students who are first generation to college or low-income access higher education. And basically students are selected based on their academic records, just like everybody else, but there's a little bit of leeway in terms of the SAT results or, you know, that they needed to get into the school. This program had the highest graduation rates, an excellent program with lots of support. At one point in time, the program was -- back the number of students they were admitting.

LINDAAnd the public statement issued about that by the people in charge of admissions at that point in time was that that there had been a cut in the grant, in the funding. The head of the TRIO program, on the other hand, told some people confidentially that the reasons why those numbers were dropped was -- they had crunched numbers, and they had -- in the admissions office. And they found out that the SAT score, the profile of the admitted class was being hurt by the fact that there were, you know, these -- some students coming in with a lower SAT score through the TRIO program.

LINDAAnd those -- that's just one of the things that were -- was happening. At the graduate level, there was also pressure. Graduate program coordinators were being told, too, that they must increase the GRE scores of those -- students. And there were programs there that -- where they really were resisting this because they knew that they had excellent candidates that they had admitted or were to admit who may be slightly off the GRE ranking scale that they were trying to promote. But they knew that they were going to be...

NNAMDII guess that...

LINDA...wonderful graduate students, so my point is this is very real, what's been happening. And decisions based on things other than educational -- you know, the thoughts about the best education for our students, decisions based on (unintelligible) and image and ranking, that has happened, and it still continues to happen.

NNAMDIShannon Gundy, could you address that and talk about the kind of pressures that may have led to this situation that Linda described, if indeed Linda is describing the situation accurately?

GUNDYPart of Linda's assertion is correct in that there is attention that's paid to the kinds of students that are invited into the program that she's referring to. We want -- we have not had a change in the number of students that we are able to provide services to for that program, which is a remarkable thing given the economic times and the amount of need that these students are bringing to the university.

GUNDYAs the university itself has changed, and the types of students that we're admitting to the university overall is changing, and the types of faculty that are teaching at university is changing, we want to make sure that we are offering admission to students that can be successful in that environment. So it is true that the types of students that we were accommodating through the program that she is referring to has changed.

GUNDYIt does not mean that we are not in the process of selecting students that are appropriate and still serving students that are low-income, first-generation students. But we need to make sure that they are competitive in the environment at the university, which has become more competitive.

NNAMDILinda, thank you very much for your call. Sharon Alston, we got from Lloyd Thacker a pretty long description of what he sees as being wrong, and he mentioned that there are recommendations being offered. What would be your own recommendation for trying to stir the application process in colleges, in general, away from the kind of competitiveness over who gets the best students that we seem to have entered into?

ALSTONI think -- from my perspective, I think it goes back to looking at the institutional mission and identifying exactly what kind of student you want to have on your campus, who can be successful, who will contribute, who will add -- what types of students will add to your community, getting that message out and articulating it in a way that you will attract those kinds of students and working with them. You know, in my ideal world, we need 1,575 students.

ALSTONI would love to reach out to the right 1,575 applicants, admit 100 percent of them and have all of them come to the university because they researched that we were clear on messaging, and they understood that. So I think, again, it's just being true to your mission and going back to basics. Who do you want? Who's going to be happy? Who's going to do the work? Who's going to be a proud alum?

NNAMDIAs opposed to the 1,575 who simply have the highest SAT scores, which gets to the issue, I think, that Robert in Washington, D.C., wants to raise. Robert, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ROBERTYeah. Good afternoon, Kojo and guests. My question is for Sharon Gundy. (sic) For two in-state applicant, what is the criteria used to determine which student is admitted and which one is rejected and -- when they have equal resumes? And, finally, how can you challenge a rejection?

NNAMDIWell, that's what happens when you have guests named Sharon and Shannon. Sharon is Alston. Gundy is Shannon. Shannon Gundy, I think this question was to you.

GUNDYCorrect. One of the things that I'm proudest about in our application review process -- as I've said, we've gotten nearly 25,000 applications. I am proud that in order to select the students that we think are the most appropriate students, we don't use cut-offs. We're not looking at students who have a certain grade point average and a certain SAT score, saying, yes, you've made the cut-off and, no, you haven't. Excuse me. We do a holistic full file review of students in which the factors that are the most important in our process are academic in nature.

GUNDYSo we're looking for students who have taken good courses, done well in those courses. They've challenged themselves appropriately. Standardized test scores do count. We do consider them, and they are part of our review process. Interestingly, most of the students that choose to apply to the University of Maryland could probably come to the university and be very successful. Our job is to make sure that we are identifying, from among that pool of students, students who are smart, who are interested in the university, who are interesting and will contribute to classroom discussions.

GUNDYWe want students that are going to change the face of the university by the things that they're choosing to be involved in while they're students at the university. Because the process is a subjective process, it's very difficult to say this is exactly the formula that you need to gain admission to the university because that formula doesn't exist. In the case when people are dissatisfied with an admission decision -- we just released our decisions this week, so we've gotten tons and tons of phone calls from people who are questioning our decisions and want to understand them.

GUNDYIf it's the case that someone thinks that we made the wrong decision, we're very happy to have a conversation with them. And we're happy to go back and take a look at the application. What I tell people, when they ask me that question is, if you have information that is new and compelling information, that could very well impact our decision. If you're calling to talk to us, to challenge the decision simply because you don't like the decision, it's not going to change because we've done a great job already.

GUNDYIn our holistic review, we've already considered the information that's there, but, if you have something new, we're happy to take a look at it.

NNAMDIRobert, thank you very much for your call. Lloyd Thacker, we got an email from Doug in Rockville, who says, "I have one child in New York University, NYU, which seems openly hostile to rankings. Why would they be?" asks Doug.

THACKERWell, I don't know if that's the case. But I can tell you that we've had some success getting colleges to cooperate to serve common educational goals rather than to compete according to precepts established by sources external to higher ed, such as the rankings. In other words, these colleges signed a letter saying that they weren't going to cooperate with the rankings. That means they wouldn't fill out their reputational pardon, that they wouldn't use rankings to advertise quality.

THACKERAnd I think that's the educational right thing to do. And I don't know whether NYU is hostile, but -- or it's taking the -- it's subscribing to what I suggested, the question being not where you stand in the rankings but what is your stance on the rankings. And it would be helpful -- I don't know if they do -- explain to students and parents why they're doing this 'cause it's an educational moment.

THACKERAnd in college, you are thinking about how they might collaborate to treat the educational opportunities in this process collectively 'cause that's the only way we're going to get a pushback on the rankings interference, is to realize that we have more to gain by collaborating than we do by competing according to these criteria that have nothing to do with education.

NNAMDII don't think Doug in Rockville sent us an email. I think he was a caller who couldn't stay on the line. But here now is Kirk in Washington, D.C. Kirk, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

KIRKYes. My question was -- I think, in the beginning I heard a conversation about this new school and making sure that it's a right fit. And it brought me back to when I was making a decision. And I remember it was me, my mom, who was poor and couldn't afford to send me anywhere, so, basically, even though I got into two really good schools that were eight, nine hours away, I couldn't afford to go visit because I didn't had the money to do that. So, basically, we were going off of rankings.

KIRKWe were looking at numbers, but I never had the opportunity to go and to fit the schools, determine whether or not it was a great fit. So I just wanted to know, for students who can't afford to come to D.C. or to go to California but would really like to go to other schools and don't -- can't afford to go to that place and visit it, what are schools are doing now to try to help them (word?) that situation out?

NNAMDIBefore I ask Sharon Alston to respond, Kirk, I'd like to know, what did you eventually decide to do, and how did it all turn out?

KIRKI went to a school that was close to home because I didn't know where UC Santa Cruz was. It was eight hours away. Or I didn't know where Santa Barbara was. So my mom said just go somewhere close by, and I did because we couldn't afford...

NNAMDIHow did that all work out?

KIRKOh, we worked out great.

NNAMDIWell...

KIRKWell, because I made it work. But, you know, for students who can't afford to pay the flight and go somewhere and pick the schools out, you know, what are schools doing (unintelligible) ?

NNAMDISure. Let me -- I'm glad it worked out for you. Allow me to have Sharon Alston respond.

ALSTONKirk, I understand where you're coming from. I mean, as a high school student, I grew up in Harlem, and I wasn't able to visit the college I ultimately attended either. But I think that we're very lucky today in that we have technology and a number of resources that are available to help students connect with colleges and universities in ways that they can get information. So I would say, here are number of different things that we would offer. First of all, remember, for all of you listening, that colleges and universities visit high schools.

ALSTONWe want to meet with students. We want to see them in their context. Many of us do regional information sessions. This provides us with an opportunity and provides you with an opportunity to have your parents get the message. We can meet with you, as well as your parents. We're at college fairs. Something that I'm not particularly good at, but we do -- online chats. My staff says that I just don't type fast enough on an online chat, so I end up having to listen. So we travel regionally to meet and interact with you.

ALSTONAnd these are all ways that you can get information about the university and get a feel for the people who are at the community. Another thing that I would encourage students to do is, oftentimes, colleges and universities, at certain points in the process, might even be willing to provide money to support transportation costs so that for students who don't have the funds, colleges and universities will pick that up and will sponsor students. I know that my own institution, we do this on an annual basis at certain points in the admission cycle.

ALSTONSo not having the resources doesn't necessarily have to mean that you can't ever visit. It could mean that at the point in which you have to make a decision, you've gotten your offers of admission, maybe that's the point at which you decide, OK, I really do need to see this one school now because I'm serious about it. I am choosing a home. But don't discount or don't overlook the fact that there are resources to help students in those positions.

NNAMDIKirk, thank you...

THACKERKojo, can I interrupt...

NNAMDIPlease do interrupt, Lloyd Thacker.

THACKERYeah. Because I think Kirk made a really insightful statement, and we can make a point out of this. He said -- you asked him how did it turn out for him, and he said it worked out great because I made it work. OK?

NNAMDIYes.

THACKERStudents -- one of the casualties of this competitive system is that it tells kids that you are where you go and that there's one perfect school and you got to make the one best match. And so it tells kids they are where they go and that education is a product, and it's done to you. Well, there's a myth there. The reality is is that, what plus what plus what equals quality education? And you add the institutional things. And the quality with the biggest coefficient, if you follow, is the student and their attitude and approach to education.

THACKERSo I think we, as professionals, in this business, and a lot of us do, try to encourage a college to realize that they own this process. They can make education happen -- great education happen in all kinds of places. We're trying to do -- help them do precision guesswork at best.

NNAMDIThank you for making that point, and, Kirk, thank you for your call. We've got to take another short break. When we come back, we'll continue our conversation on rethinking college admissions, still inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. Did you or someone in your family apply to college recently? How many applications did you send out? How many acceptances did you get? You can go to our website, kojoshow.org, and join the conversation there. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWe're talking about the sometimes arduous process of college applications and about rethinking college admissions with Lloyd Thacker Director, director of the Education Conservancy. Sharon Alston is vice provost for undergraduate enrollment at American University. And Shannon Gundy is director of undergraduate admissions at the University of Maryland. Shannon Gundy, you've worked in college admissions for more than 20 years.

NNAMDII was going to ask you to describe the attitude and expectations of today's college applicants and their parents and how that's changed over time. But I thought I would make it more personal because it's my understanding that you have a firsthand parental perspective on applying to college this year.

GUNDYI do. And...

GUNDYTalk about your family's experience with the college application process and the stress that's involved.

GUNDYYou know, one of the things that I've tried to do professionally is to help ratchet down the level of expectation and the level of frenzy in the college admission process, and I thought that I had done that in my home. My daughter is very, very reasonable, very rational, and, you know, in going through the college admission process, I heard her talking to some of her friends about the selection process.

GUNDYVery reasonable -- I was ready to hire her -- in talking about the fact that sometimes it's not about you, it's about the needs of the institution, and helping her friends understand that if they're disappointed in their decisions, they should then go ahead and move on from there. When it came to the point -- when she was actually applying for admission, it was a very, very, very different story.

NNAMDINevertheless.

GUNDYThe level of pressure is amazing. She attended a school where I think the college counselor did a very good job in trying to help the students understand how to balance this process and how not to be frenzied in the process. But, nevertheless, it is an exceptionally anxiety-provoking experience. She had -- my daughter had decided where she wants to go to school. She knows what her first choice institution is, and learning about the admission decision for her first choice institution was not all she wanted.

GUNDYShe was on a quest to get admitted to every school to which she had applied, regardless of the fact that she knew where she wanted to go. There's -- she has decided that she would love to come to the University of Maryland. I'm thrilled about that, but she still has an application out there that she hasn't heard from. And she's dying to hear whether she's been admitted there. In spite of all of the things that I'm telling her about, you know, it's not about collecting acceptances.

GUNDYIt's not about being able to talk to our friends and brag to your friends. It's about finding the right fit. And she's found the right fit, but it's still difficult to pull it back and, you know, pull her off that ledge of pressure that's surrounding her.

NNAMDIAbout having your self-esteem somehow be related to the number of acceptances that you can get.

GUNDYExactly.

NNAMDILloyd, you did some research with Consumer Reports on students' attitudes about college admissions. They complained about what they call the commercialization of the process. What did they mean by that? And what do students say about applying to college?

THACKERWell, students want to be treated as students and not customers in this process. And they want help thinking about what should matter to them. They want help understanding that they're in the position to make their education happen, and it's not necessarily the college. Unfortunately, they're bombarded with messages, and it's the collective impact of a variety of sources that the college do, too.

THACKERIn fact, what's amazing is, of all the sources of information that students judge, the trustworthiness of all sources of information, this is -- I'm not saying anything about Shannon or Sharon here. It's -- because of the process, they're being bombarded, and they say that the least trustworthy of all sources of information are college reps and colleges themselves. They feel like they're being marketed too heavily. It shouldn't be that way. We don't want it to be that way.

NNAMDIWell, allow me to interrupt and read this email from Nancy in Maryland. "Can your guest comment on the dollar amounts spent by universities in marketing? My son applied to college this year, and he's been bombarded..." -- a word that you just used Lloyd -- "...bombarded by marketing materials with so many repeat mailings, they all get put directly into the recycling bin. One mailing is enough. Surely, the dollars spent on much of this marketing would be better added to financial aid made available to most students." Please continue, Lloyd Thacker.

THACKERWell, we know that the money spent to attract and enroll students in terms of marketing has tripled in the past 10 years. And the recent figure there -- I mean, some colleges do it more than others. But the recent figure is between $2- to $3,000 per student at private colleges.

NNAMDIOn now to Madeline in Bethesda, Md. Madeline, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MADELINEHi. I'm Madeline from Bethesda, Md., and my question is whether the U.S. Common App has ever considered limiting the number of applications. My son applied to schools in the U.K., in the Kingdom, and their common app system which is called UCAS only -- they -- you can only apply to five schools at the most.

MADELINEI found it much easier to deal with and much more of a simplified process because he had to narrow down where he wanted to go to school. And I just wondered if there was any indication you had heard that the U.S. system might, at some point, want to limit applications…

NNAMDILet me get you a couple of responses to that because, Sharon Alston, some people say that Common App has helped drive the surge in applications by making it easier to apply to more schools. The Common App, for those of you who don't know, is the electronic application that students can fill out once and then submit to a number of schools.

ALSTONI would actually disagree that the Common App has driven the surge. And, in fact, my recollection from data that I've seen is that the average number of common applications submitted is three.

NNAMDIOK.

ALSTONSo that really doesn't sound like...

NNAMDIThat is for three institutions on the same app. OK.

ALSTONYes, for three institutions. Right. So students are not necessarily using the Common Application to apply to, you know, dozens of schools. I think the Common Application has actually contributed to try to -- to trying to eliminate some of the stress in the process by providing students with one simple form that they could fill out, that they can submit to multiple institutions.

ALSTONSo I don't necessarily know if I would advocate having an organization like the Common Application place any kind of a restriction on the number of applications that -- on the number of schools that students can apply to. As I said, the average is three. I believe that, nationally, on average, students apply to, I think, upwards of six colleges. I think that that's the average.

NNAMDIThe University of Maryland, Shannon, does not use the Common App. Why not?

GUNDYThat's an interesting question. We've looked a number of times at using the Common Application. And one of the reasons that we've chosen not to use the Common Application, interestingly, is one of the populations of students, international students that we are trying to attract to the university, we found that it's too cumbersome. So in spite of facilitating the process for that population of students, we found that it was more difficult for them. So we've made the decision, using that factor, among others, not to use the Common App.

NNAMDIYour take on the Common App, Lloyd Thacker?

THACKERI have mixed feelings. My experience working in a college prep school shows that kids, yes, did take advantage of the Common App to apply to schools in a less thoughtful manner. I'm not convinced that easy is necessarily better in this process. The application process is an opportunity for colleges to distinguish themselves by the questions that they ask and by their process. So I have mixed feelings about this.

NNAMDIWe got an email from Sue, who says, "My child applied to 13 schools and spent $1,000 in application fees. She also did two early action applications and got two acceptances. So why did I let her apply to so many schools? Because financial aid numbers are all over the place. I hope she gets into Yale. Yes, it will be fun to tell people my daughter is at Yale. But, more importantly, Yale guarantees to meet our financial need and are very generous about it.

NNAMDI"Or she can go to a less prestigious school, one that will offer her a nice merit scholarship. At least that's our calculus at this point." Any comment at all on that, Shannon?

GUNDYOne of the things that we've left out of the conversation and the equation so far today is how families and parents contribute to the frenzy. I think we're living in a society where -- you know, we've got a situation where many parents have been able to give their students everything that they wanted all of their lives. They've been able to say, yes, I can make this happen for you. When you get to this point in the process, parents are losing some of the control that they've had all of their lives, and they can't promise to deliver the outcomes that their students want.

GUNDYAnd I think that they allow, in some instances, students to do things that they know are not reasonable in order to help -- be able to give them something that they think they need to have, when I don't necessarily agree that they need to have that.

NNAMDIAn increase in applications for the same number of freshman slots would seem to create more uncertainty for you about who really wants to come to your school and who's just hedging bets. How important is it to figure out who's likely to come if you offer them admission, Sharon Alston?

ALSTONYou know, it's interesting -- that's an interesting question. The National Association for College Admission Counseling began tracking the consideration of demonstrated interest as one of the factors in the admissions process. I think since maybe around 2003, 2005, somewhere in that range, in the first year in which they began tracking, I think, 7 percent of colleges indicated that it was one of the factors. As of the most recent year for which data were available -- I think that was 2010 -- the number is now -- it's now 23 percent. So, I mean, you're right.

ALSTONI think that the increase in the applications has created some uncertainty in the process. I think, again, we all -- it's a relationship. We want to know who's really interested in us. And so going back to the caller Kirk, I talked about the number of opportunities that students have to interact with us in order to show that they really are sincere in their interest because, again, I mean, you know, just as the student is looking for the right-fit college, we're looking for that right-fit student that wants to be with us. And I'd say that demonstration of interest is important.

NNAMDIIt seems as if all colleges want more minority students, more out-of-state students and more international students. Why? And what does that mean for the admissions process, Lloyd Thacker?

THACKERWell, I think out-of-state students bring revenue to most colleges because, disproportionately, they are full-paying students. Minority students or disadvantaged students, for a variety of reasons, are attractive for colleges. When they diversify the student body, which has educational benefits, too, we realized that disadvantaged students often do a better job of taking advantage of learning opportunities on the campus.

THACKERSo it's -- what's troubling, though, is -- you see, need-based aid used to be focused on serving deserving students, giving students a chance. But you've -- we've seen a tremendous shift in the use of aid from need-based purpose to a competitive weapon -- in other words, from the students that are most deserving to those that are most desirable to make rank. One statistic that's really alarming -- and there was a study in 2006 of 946 colleges. And during that year, 2006, they awarded $3.3 billion in non-need-based aid while, for that class, there was a calculated unmet need of admitted students at $2.4 billion.

THACKERAnd I would say that's a tremendous waste, and we ought to be ashamed.

NNAMDIOn to Della (sp?) in Accokeek, Md. Della, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DELLAThank you, Kojo. I have a daughter, my first daughter, who is going through the process of college admission. She applied to nine schools, and the strategy is to see which school she gets into and which one gives out the best discount because the merit that everybody calls merit, to my own personal understanding, is nothing more than a discount. So she's been admitted to three.

DELLAOnly one of them had extended her merit, and that merit is not even near what we can afford. So I, as a parent, am concerned about the high cost of college education. And to spend $100-, $150,000 for four-year degrees, especially in this age where the kid is obviously going to go to grad school, to me, is making the field very, very, very uneven.

NNAMDIHow do you address the issue of cost here, Sharon Alston?

ALSTONWell, as a parent, I think that parents have a number of different opportunities that they can explore. I think that, at the community college level, they would report that they're seeing increasing numbers of students who are beginning their four-year degree program at a community college. It's a fraction of the cost. Oftentimes those credits transfer, and you're not necessarily spending top dollar. You're getting a comparable education.

ALSTONYou've got public university options. Private colleges and universities often have federal as well as institutional funds that they can and do award to students. I know that, at my institution, about 80 percent of our first year students are receiving some type of financial support from our university. We believe that providing funding provides access and choice and opportunity.

ALSTONAnd I would be hard-pressed to say that there's any institution out there that really would not say or feel exactly the same way. So I think that you need to look at the merit opportunities, apply for need-based financial aid, pay attention to the deadlines and look at websites.

NNAMDIAnd that's the last word we'll have on this subject. Unfortunately, we're out of time. Sharon Alston, thank you for joining us.

ALSTONThank you.

NNAMDISharon Alston is vice provost for undergraduate enrollment at American University. Shannon Gundy, thank you for joining us.

GUNDYIt's been a pleasure.

NNAMDIShannon Gundy is director of undergraduate admissions at the University of Maryland. Lloyd Thacker, thank you for joining us.

THACKERMy pleasure.

NNAMDILloyd Thacker is director of the Education Conservancy. And thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.