MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Maryland has been something of a microcosm of a fight playing out across the country. The Maryland Dream Act passed into law last spring. The Dream Act gives undocumented individuals who came to this country as children, in state tuition rates at state universities. Opponents quickly petitioned to have the Maryland Dream Act put to a vote in November. Dream Act legislation has been around for a decade in places like Texas and California.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIBut there's been a flurry of legislation on the issue over the past year or so and nearly a dozen states have recently passed Dream Act legislation, some like California, now even grant financial aid to undocumented students. And like in Maryland, these laws are also being challenged in a number of states, including Texas. And some states have gone further, introducing bills that would bar undocumented immigrants from attending any state school at all. And many point out that state dream acts are a door to nowhere since only federal legislation can grant a path to citizenship.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIWe look at what's happening with the Dream Act legislation around the country and in order for us to do that, joining us by phone is Anne Kaiser. She's a Maryland state delegate. She's a democrat from Montgomery County. Anne Kaiser, thank you for joining us.

MS. ANNE KAISERThank you for having me today.

NNAMDIAlso joining us by telephone is Tom Fitton. He is the President of Judicial Watch, a conservative, non-partisan foundation that promotes transparency and accountability in government, politics and law. Tom Fitton, thank you for joining us.

MR. THOMAS FITTONHey, thank you for having me, Kojo.

NNAMDIYou, too, can join the conversation, call us at -800-433-8850. You can also send email to kojo@wamu.org. Send us a tweet @kojoshow or simply go to our website, kojoshow.org and join the conversation there. Anne Kaiser, the Maryland Dream Act passed the Maryland assembly last year. It will likely be put to a referendum vote this November. But before we get into that, what were the provisions of the law?

KAISERWell, thank you. Well, this bill allows students who attended Maryland high schools for three years and whose parents are guardians or they themselves pay taxes for three years to attend our higher institutions at an in-state rate. But we did do a few things. First, you have to go to community college for two years before attending a four year school. And throughout that time, you have to pay taxes. And this is about kids and their education and providing them opportunity.

NNAMDITom Fitton, what's the issue with Dream Act legislation like Maryland's, as you see it?

FITTONOh, it rewards and incentivizes illegal behavior. These students are not eligible to live or work in the United States, their parents are not eligible to live or work in the United States. And, however helpful Maryland politicians are trying to be, but in order to help people evade the law and encourage them to evade the law, you know, this is just the wrong way to do it. It's an expensive way to do it and it undermines the rule of law, generally. And so I think it's a real crisis of the rule of law in Maryland as a result and that's why voters, overwhelmingly, signed the petition to put it to a vote and I suspect it will be turned back in next November.

NNAMDITell us a little bit more about that petition to put the law to a referendum vote? It was in July of last year that the signatures were collected.

FITTONYes, Marylandpetitions.com, which was run by Neil Parrott who is a delegate in Maryland as well, was part of a large effort to gather petitions to put the issue to a vote. And they got over 100,000 petitions, one of the most successful petitions rises. Not the most successful petitions rising Maryland state history.

FITTONThat petition process had been challenged in court and whether that petition could go to a vote continues to be challenged in court by Casa De Maryland and illegal aliens which has some ironies. But Judicial Watch is defending it and it's defended it successfully thus far and any remaining issues, we think, are going to be dismissed by the court. And the petition will go, we hope and expect, to the voters and the referendum will go to the voters in November.

NNAMDIIn case you're just joining us, we're talking about dream act at the state level around the country and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. What do you think of Dream Act legislation for your state? 800-433-8850 or you can send email to kojo@wamu.org or simply to go to our website kojoshow.org, ask a question or make a comment there.

NNAMDIWe're talking with Tom Fitton. He is the President of Judicial Watch which is a conservative foundation that promotes transparency and accountability in government, politics and law. And delegate Anne Kaiser is a Maryland state delegate. She's a democrat from Montgomery County. Anne Kaiser, gathering signatures online is fairly new. It was one of the basis on which this referendum was challenged. Has the state looked into this?

KAISERThe state is looking into this. I think, Mr. Fitton could agree, while the referendum is a process that we should all respect, we should also respect all the steps it takes to make sure that every eye is dotted and every T is crossed to make sure it's done correctly. We in the legislature, who passed it last year, are elected by a majority of voters and to say that a large drive against it, it only takes three percent of voters to put this on the ballot. Certainly, this was the most successful drive that there has been in the past.

KAISERThis is the first time online petitions have been used. And I do believe the legislature will be looking at some of the details to make sure that there's no fraud and that online petitions are accurate and positive and that we can -- with this issue and others in the future, move forward and make sure that our petition drives are full and legal.

NNAMDIDelegate Kaiser, you say that you've been working to clear up misconceptions about the Maryland Dream Act. What are some of them?

KAISERWell, I think, the first one and many of my colleagues -- many of whom knew better, would say, this is a free ride. Well, I'll tell you, the University of Maryland of College Park, the states flagship institution is $8,500 a year for in-state students. And I don't know too many Maryland residents who think that a price tag of $8,500 is a free ride. I also hear a lot of people talk about, this is for transients and people who move into the state suddenly for our benefit.

KAISERFirst of all, you had to have attended a Maryland high school for three years. You or your parents were paying taxes during that time and the transient argument has also proven to be false. Ten other states already provide this. They've been providing it over 10 years, in fact, in California and Texas. So I think that argument doesn't hold any water.

NNAMDIOn the issue of taxes, here is Jose in Manassas, Va. Jose, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOSEYes, hi. I have a concern. I mean, we have tax cheaters and evaders to have amnesty under taxes. However, we do not allow people looking for the American dream to have the same type of pardon or way of getting their things straight. And we're always looking for the best and the brightest and we already have them in here and we don't let these kids excel or even contribute, possibly to the American way of living. What is the message we're giving everybody out there in the world, that we are (unintelligible) on everything else?

NNAMDITom Fitton, Jose says that we allow tax cheaters amnesty yet we won't allow people who pay taxes to have their children get in-state tuition. What do you say to that?

FITTONWell, amnesty does undermine the rule of law. And, you know, tax cheaters who get amnesty, that's a questionable public policy. And what policies are that requires you to be a citizen or a legal resident in order to gain certain benefits that others don't gain, you know, is an adherence to the rule of law. And it says to everyone, get in line, follow the rules, that's part of the American dream. And for Maryland to offer a discounted tuition benefits to people here illegally that are not available to other U.S. residents is really the height of an outrage.

FITTONAnd that idea, I think, is at odds with people sense of fair play and the rule of law. And if Maryland wants to undermine the rule of law, I guess, they can. But it needs to comply also with federal law and there's a lot here to question whether it also complies with federal law, this particular statute. So even if it passes, the referendum, whereas upheld through the referendum process, it's also subject to legal challenge. And, Kojo, just quickly on the issue of the innovative online petition process, the Marylandpetititon.com development, it was defended in-state, in this court case by the state of Maryland.

FITTONAnd I suspect even some allies of the delegate are going to being using it in other petition processes. It's a great innovation. The other side gave up its fight. It was defended by the state as valid and so we expect that it's here today and that the left and the right, moderates and liberals and conservatives, democrats and republicans will be using it in future Maryland petition battles and battles elsewhere across the country.

NNAMDICare to respond to that Delegate Kaiser?

KAISERSure. I wanted to make a few points in terms of the taxes. Taxes are most certainly paid by undocumented immigrants (unintelligible) ...

NNAMDIOh, as a matter of fact, allow me to interrupt for a second because Michael, in Fort Washington, has a question about exactly how that's done. Michael, go ahead, please.

MICHAELThank you. I've always be curious, if you are illegal in the country, how do you get a legal social security card number to pay federal taxes?

NNAMDIAnd we got...

MICHAELI wanted to get an answer.

NNAMDIAnd we got an email from Ron in Alexandria, Anne Kaiser, who says "I'm a little confused. If the parents and children are not eligible to live and work in the U.S., how can they pay state taxes in order to be eligible for the program?" Please explain.

KAISEROh, sure. I'll go back to that and follow up on another one of the points.

NNAMDISure.

KAISERAgain, people pay property taxes, they pay sales taxes, there's something called an individual tax ID number that people apply to for the federal government. Over 36,000 Marylanders have applied for that. And many of those are undocumented immigrants and they are in fact paying taxes, both the liberal RAND organization as well as the very conservative Cato institute that suggested that the taxes paid by undocumented immigrants, far surpass any benefits they receive. So I think on the far right and the far left, that has been determined.

KAISERI did want to also respond to Mr. Fitton. He refers to the rule of law. We passed a law this past year. It is possible, that at the referendum this upcoming November, it will be overturned. But to say that there are federal challenges, this has been happening since 2001 in our two largest states, California and Texas. I don't think the federal government hasn't noticed that all these years and it has withstood federal challenge. And the Supreme Court has yet to take this case, though they've been given that opportunity. So I think that speaks volumes to the idea that it does not pass federal muster.

NNAMDITom Fitton, your organization sees these as amnesty programs. Why is that?

FITTONWell, the fact that it essentially encourages those who are here illegally and ought to remove themselves from the United States to comply with the law. And it's better to stay here. And it is -- it's more of a sanctuary policy then an amnesty policy in the sense that folks who benefit from this program are still subject to criminal sanctions and removal from the United States by the federal government. And here, the state of the law in Maryland is, if it's allowed to take place, take effect, would be to undermine that federal prerogative and that federal law is to cause these people to be removed and enforce the rule of law against them.

FITTONNow, the problem with the federal government as Delegate (word?) pointed is that they don't want to enforce the rule of law. It didn't happen under the Bush administration, certainly the Obama administration is doing its darnedest to enact amnesty on its own, absent, even support of Congress. So there really is a law enforcement crisis here and there's no way we're going to control the borders if states like Maryland hold up the welcome sign, get over across the border, you're telling illegal aliens, and we'll take care of you. And the taxpayers pay for it and citizens who are here pay for it.

FITTONAnd legal residents who are here pay for it. And this is something that is at odds with good governance.

NNAMDIAnne Kaiser, these programs are aimed at a specific group of undocumented individuals. Those who came here at what age?

KAISERWell, it could really be at any age as long as they attended our schools for three years. And these are the -- whatever we can all agree about our broken immigration system in this country is in-state tuition law is all about the kids who make none of those choices and all about their education. And these kids in fact have played by the rules and they have worked hard in high school and they have earned those spots in one of our institutions of higher learning.

KAISERSo, whether they came here at age two or three when they had no idea where they were going or where they were from and they've only America as their home or they came here at age 12 or 13. Either way, if they have fulfilled that time in our high school -- and, again, they have to earn a spot in our institutions of higher education so they have to work very hard to get there.

NNAMDITom Fitton, one of the requirements that Anne Kaiser has been pointing out for a student to qualify for the Maryland Dream Act is that the parents file income taxes for at least three years before a student graduates. Is that a high standard to meet for parents who are presumably also undocumented?

FITTONWell, it depends on how the policy is being implemented. And it's irrelevant to legality of their residency here. They could have paid income taxes under a false Social Security number with that tax buster. And so...

NNAMDILet's assume for a minute that they did fill out the individual ID documents that Anne Kaiser describe and that they were paying income taxes legally.

FITTONI'm glad they're complying with part of the law of the United States. But they're not in compliance with the immigration law, which requires them to be properly documented. Be here legally, not overstay their visa, cross the border legally, not re-cross the border legally. You know, this is a legal activity that's being subsidized here and being winked at and approved of and are condoned. And the idea that this only applies to teenagers is the lie of the language of the statute.

FITTONIf you're here and you've completed these requirements, no matter your age, your eligible here. So, the idea that only teenagers will take advantage of this is just not accurate. It applies to older students as well. So, you could cross the border at the age of 18, get your high school education in Maryland and get the subsidy that's not available to U.S. citizens from other states.

NNAMDIAnne Kaiser, is that correct?

KAISERIt's not. An 18-year-old who comes to the state can enroll in our high schools and you have to be in our high schools for three years at least, whether you graduate from our high schools or get a GED, it's a fact in the law that you have attend our high school for three years. Your original question to Mr. Fitton, I think, relates to how our law compares to other states. Ours is the strictest that is out there. People should know that as well that we took great care of -- other states who provide this require either one to three years of high school.

KAISERWe said three at the max and that no other state requires evidence of paying taxes. And that, too, has withstood the test of time in all these states. We did require taxes. And ours is the only state that requires attendance at community colleges first. So, clearly anyone who's familiar with this issue knows that the Maryland law is the most arduous out there.

NNAMDISomething else may need clarification. Here is Green (sp?) in Laurel, MD. Green, you're on the air, go ahead please.

GREENHello. I think that the -- is it a delegate or...

NNAMDIDelegate Anne Kaiser, yes.

GREENOkay. I think the delegate sized up the question. The question was, well, the law requires, number one, I believe that W2 forms be presented as proof. Now the person is not allowed to be in the country legally, let alone the state. Well, them to present a W2 form is the admission of committing a felony because they have to have stolen ID. So, individual tax numbers, first of all...

NNAMDIAllow to me to have Anne Kaiser respond to that. How can an undocumented resident get any kind of ID number without authentic papers, I guess, is the question Green is raising.

KAISERIndividuals who file with the federal government for I-10 when filing their federal taxes, they qualify using their driver's license or a passport. It does not have to be a U.S. ID. Again, over 36,000 Marylanders have filed this I-10. But the thing is, if you don't believe that these undocumented immigrants are paying taxes, well then don't worry, this law only applies to people who do pay their taxes. And let me remind everyone, this is about educating students and putting them on a pathway to citizenship.

GREENNo, it's about more than that because you have citizens of the United States that don't get that consideration. For example, U.S. citizens who live outside the state of Maryland can't apply a Maryland university schools and pay in-state tuition. But also, the fact still remains how can you present W2 forms which is what the bill calls for without admitting that you've broken the law? How can you get a Social Security number...

NNAMDIOne last response from Delegate Kaiser on that issue.

KAISERI think I have already answered the question, how many people do get this I-10 and how this has worked, this process has worked in other states. So I thought the question was answered.

NNAMDISuffice it to say, Green apparently doesn't believe that that is possible. Tom Fitton, your organization is involved in a separate lawsuit against the Montgomery Community College. Tell us about that.

FITTONWell, we sued on behalf of taxpayers in Montgomery County who -- Montgomery County Community College, the community college there didn't bother to wait for the law to catch up with its progressive views and decided to hand out in-state tuition to illegal aliens, absent any support from state or federal law. So we sued to stop that. Unfortunately, the lower court appended 150 years of Maryland legal tradition that allows taxpayers to challenge illegal expenditures like that.

FITTONAnd it is under appeal. But there are millions and millions of dollars in tax dollars that went to subsidize this illegal activity in Montgomery College. And it makes the numbers that are thrown around by the proponents of the Maryland Dream Act...

NNAMDIWhere is that lawsuit?

FITTONIt seem really quite small than what the actual impact will be in terms of tax dollars.

NNAMDIWhere is that lawsuit right now?

FITTONIt's on appeal.

NNAMDIOkay. I'm afraid that's all the time we have in this segment. Tom Fitton, thank you for joining us.

FITTONYou're welcome, Kojo. Thank you.

NNAMDITom Fitton is the president of Judicial Watch. It's a conservative foundation that promotes transparency and accountability in government, politics and law. Anne Kaiser, thank you for joining us.

KAISERThank you for having me. Have a good day.

NNAMDIAnne Kaiser is a Maryland State delegate. She's a Democrat from Montgomery County. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, the Dream Act will be taking you around the country to see what's going on in states around the country on this kind of legislation. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're now going to talk about how the Dream Act or laws like the Dream Act are doing at state levels around the country. Joining us in studio is Wendy Cervantes. She is the vice president for Immigration and Child Rights Policy at First Focus. That's a bipartisan organization that advocates for children and families in federal policy and budget decisions. Wendy Cervantes, thank you for joining us.

MS. WENDY CERVANTESThank you for having me.

NNAMDIAnd joining us by phone from New York is Muzaffar Chishti. He is the director of the Migration Policy Institute at New York University School of Law. Muzaffar Chishti, thank you for joining us.

MR. MUZAFFAR CHISHTIThank you for having me.

NNAMDIWe invite you again to join the conversation by calling us at 800-433-8850 or by sending email to kojo@wamu.org. Do you think people without legal status should be offered in-state tuition? Do you think they should get financial aid? Do you think undocumented children who were brought here as children should be given access to state colleges and financial aid? 800-433-8850. Or you can simply go to our website, kojoshow.org, join the conversation there.

NNAMDIOr send us a tweet @kojoshow. Wendy Cervantes, the fight in Maryland is something of a microcosm of what's been happening around the country. What does the state level Dream Act picture look like around the country right now?

CERVANTESWell, as was mentioned earlier, state level, in-state tuition bills have actually been around for quite some time, since 2001, as was mentioned. But since 2001, we've seen several states that have passed their own bills. And Texas and California were highlighted as two of the first states to enact such legislation. But I think it's important to note that states like Oklahoma, Kansas and Utah were some of the very first states to pass these types of bills.

CERVANTESAnd these are states that perhaps aren't typically thought of as states that have large immigrant populations, but yet they still recognize the importance of educating all students in their state. And we've seen an increase of these bills being introduced over the past year. Just in 2011, there were 12 separate bills introduced around the country on both sides of the issue.

NNAMDIMuzaffar, it seems there are extremes. Several states are seeing challenges to what many people call tuition equity laws. Some states now specifically bar people without legal status from getting in-state tuition and others are going farther. Can you tell us what's happening in that respect?

CHISHTIWell, you know, what's happening, as your earlier discussion indicates, is that this is a clearly divided country on immigration in general and on unauthorized immigration in particular. The country is really completely divided in half. Half the people think that this is a no-brainer. That the only issue at stake is the legality, as one of your guests was pointing out. And the other thing that this is important, moral and philosophical issue on one hand, but ultimately more pragmatic issues that once you have this number of unauthorized young people in your midst, what's the most pragmatic thing we can do?

CHISHTIYou can let them squander away, the youth in the streets, or make it possible for them to go ahead and get educational attainment. And states are really falling on the whole spectrum. There are 12 states in the country now, which call these legislations which I think oddly are called Dream Acts because they don't necessarily anything to do with how we call the Dream Act and the federal legislation. They offer in-state tuition.

CHISHTIThere are four states in the country which prohibit in-state tuition and there are two states in the country, South Carolina and Alabama, which prohibit unauthorized kids even to enter public institutions after high school. So you have the whole spectrum and it's divided of course by the politics in the states and it's divided by how the, you know, individual lawmakers are perceiving this at the local level.

NNAMDIJudging from some of the calls we get, there is a third option that some people would like and that is round them up and send them home. Why is that not a reasonable option?

CHISHTIWell, because, you know, we have been hearing other options since unauthorized immigration has been a sore political point since the late 1970s. The simple fact is that we don't have the moral will, we don't have the political will, and we certainly don't have the resources to round up 11 million people and return them home. I think that no one believes is a realistic possibility. The issue is that if that's not going to happen at a legal level or at a practical level, then what is the smart thing for the country to do for the unauthorized among our midst, especially the kids?

NNAMDIWendy Cervantes?

CERVANTESAnd I would just add with respect to the young undocumented immigrants is that where are we going to deport them to? Many of these kids came here at a very young age, some were here as young as one-year-olds. And to deport them to a country where they no longer may have family ties...

NNAMDIThe response to that generally is that's not our business. We are not the ones who brought them here illegally. Why should we be responsible for where they are deported to?

CERVANTESBecause I think that's a question about the kind of America we want to be. And I think that -- I would like to think that we're the kind of America that doesn't pick and choose which children we want to take care of.

NNAMDIIn Virginia, a tuition equity bill was recently proposed. But with Republicans in control of both chambers, does that now look likely? Wendy?

CERVANTESCan you repeat the question?

NNAMDIIn Virginia, where they recently introduced an in-state tuition bill, Republicans now happen to control both houses of the general assembly in the Commonwealth of Virginia. So, is passage of such a bill likely?

CERVANTESI think it would a very tough uphill battle, given the current political climate/

NNAMDIIn Virginia. There are really two steps to tuition equity. Tell us about California and Illinois.

CERVANTESYes. Well, California and Illinois are actually two of the states that have expanded their in-state tuition bills in order to also provide certain types of financial aid and some scholarships for their students. And the reason that this has been taken up as a strategy is because we know that many of these undocumented students come from low income families to begin with. And many also are first generation college students.

CERVANTESSo the ability to be able to afford to pay for college is already an incredible challenge. Having in-state tuition is one step in the right direction. But being able to have access to work study and financial aid and scholarships is also very critical.

NNAMDI800-433-8850. Do you worry about the cost of providing in-state tuition to undocumented students? 800-433-8850. Should there be a path to citizenship for undocumented students who came here as children? Send us a tweet @kojoshow. You can also go to our website, kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there. Why is financial aid, Wendy, so important?

CERVANTESWell, as I mentioned before, many -- I mean, financial aid is important to all low income students, particularly first generation college students. And so, without having access to financial aid, college would simply not be affordable for many of these students.

NNAMDICalifornia is also an example of a state that seen legislation pass. And then face a challenge. What's been happening -- tell us what's been happening in California.

CERVANTESWell, in California there has been several challenges to their legislation. But in 2010 the California Supreme Court upheld the state's method for providing in-state tuition to their students. And this basically to say that it's not in conflict with federal law and the Supreme Court has, to this date, still decline to review that ruling.

NNAMDIMuzaffar, can we back up for a moment. The Dream Act has been around for a long time. When was the Dream Act first passed at the state level?

CHISHTIWell, I think the first -- it depends on really what you mean by Dream Act.

NNAMDIThis is true. They're not all called Dream Acts.

CHISHTIIn fact, there's a lot of confusion about it. At the federal -- let's just settle that confusion.

NNAMDIPlease do.

CHISHTIAt the federal level, Dream Act has always been associated with granting legal status to unauthorized kids. At the state level, we know state legislatures have no authority to grant legal status. But bills which either grants in-state tuition all provide access to state grants, like we just heard about. These are sort of call to the state Dream Act.

CHISHTISo, I mean, I think Texas was the first state in the country to pass in 2001, I think, a Texas law which allowed unauthorized kids to get in-state tuition. And since then, it was mentioned earlier, there are about 12 states in the country to do that. New York, Illinois and California have gotten the most attention of the more activist work on the Dream Act. But, you know, other states have actually done it much more quietly.

NNAMDIWendy, Dream Act, one should remember, is an acronym, is it not? Remind us what Dream Act stands for.

CERVANTESYeah. It's the Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors. And that's the acronym at the federal level.

NNAMDISpeaking of the federal level, we've been talking so far about state-level legislation. The federal legislation is quite different than the state level. What is the federal DREAM Act?

CERVANTESWell, the federal DREAM Act is a bill that would actually provide a pathway to citizenship for these undocumented students. So these would be students that would have to have arrived in the U.S. before the age of 15, have resided in the country for at least five years on the day of enactment of the bill, should it be enacted and who are of good moral character and graduate from high school. You know, get a high school diploma or receive a GED and then go on to complete two years of college or military service in order to qualify for citizenship.

NNAMDIWhich brings me to Kevin in Talbot County, MD. Kevin, you're on the air, go ahead please.

KEVINHi, Kojo. Thank you for taking my call. I'm an immigration attorney on the eastern shore of Maryland. It's a rural community in Public County. And I'm a big supporter of this bill, but it doesn't provide a road to work authorization or Social Security numbers and there's a lot of things that even one of the students who will take advantage of the Maryland Dream Act, they couldn't get a driver's license because they don't a social security number, they don't have federal work authorizations.

KEVINI'm wondering how both the supporters or detractors of this bill can, you know, how does that conflict with federal law and the work authorization, and basically, what good is an education that you can't use.

NNAMDISupporters of…

KEVINAnd (unintelligible) answer off the air, thank you.

NNAMDIYou're more than welcome, Kevin. It's my understanding that supporters of the Dream Act, therefore, feel, Wendy, that's why federal legislation is in their view not just important, but crucial.

CERVANTESAnd absolutely. And that's a great question, and that's why at the federal level we're gonna keep up this fight. But I think in the meantime, these in-state tuition bills are critical in order to make sure that these kids are, you know, have this access to an education as they will need to complete, you know, their high school education and their college degree, and to have the incentive to go onto college by having access to in-state tuition, it just helps pave the road for them to qualify for their citizenship.

NNAMDIWe got -- oh, please go ahead.

CHISHTII'm sorry. Just one small -- in New York State there is bill that would all unauthorized kids to get driver's license. But beyond that, you know, anything which has to do with the right to work in the United States, state legislatures just do not have the authority to do that, and that's why they're scrambling to do things which are short of granting people legal status, and that effort falls in the entire spectrum.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. When we come back, we will continue this conversation. We are looking at legislation that is loosely called Dream Act legislation in several states across the country, and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. You can also send email to kojo@wamu.org. What do you think of Dream Act or Dream Act type legislation for your state? You can also go to our website kojoshow.org, join the conversation there. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking about what some refer to as tuition equity legislation, others as Dream Act legislation in various states around the country. Our guests are Muzaffar Chishti. He is the director of the Migration Policy Institute at New York University's School of Law. He joins us by telephone from New York, and Wendy Cervantes is the Vice President for Immigration and Child Rights Policy at First Focus, a bipartisan organization that advocates for children and families in federal policy and budget decisions.

NNAMDIWe got a Facebook post from Coqui that I'd like to throw out. "How can Marylanders punish kids who grew up in Maryland, attended Maryland schools and are Marylanders because their parents brought them there?" 800-433-8850. I'd be interested to hear what you think about that. Wendy Cervantes, the intention with the federal bill is that it would apply to people who came here as minors, correct? What's the idea?

CERVANTESYes. So it would apply only to children that were brought to the United States before the age -- 15 years old and younger.

NNAMDIWhere does that federal Dream Act stand now?

CERVANTESWell, it was reintroduced last year, in March of last year, and it had its first hearing on the Senate side, June of last year, and it actually came very, very close to passing and during the lame duck session in December of 2010, actually it received a majority vote in both the House and the Senate, with bipartisan support I should mention. And it continues to have bipartisan support, and while we don't see a lot of opportunity for it to be brought up this year, we do...

NNAMDIWhy, because it's a presidential election year and heated rhetoric is flying on both sides?

CERVANTESPossibly.

NNAMDIYou'd let a little thing like that stop you? No. Go ahead, please.

CERVANTESNo. That's actually exactly why.

NNAMDIYeah. Muzaffar, states can grant in-state tuition and even financial aid, but only a federal Dream Act as has been pointed out earlier, can give students a path to legal status. Without that, what can students who get degrees do with their education?

CHISHTIWell, that's exactly the point. I mean, I think, you know, basically states of today confronting what the Supreme Court confronted in 1982. It took a Supreme Court decision in 1982 to grant unauthorized kids the rights to basic public education K to 12. It was a sharply divided code, but codes finally said that, look, if they are in our midst, it's better to have them in classrooms than in the streets. And I think today the state set a practical level of (unintelligible) .

CHISHTIThat these are people who were brought in as kids, no fault of theirs, have attended schools, are on their way to becoming productive citizens, and we stop them, and that's not in the interest of society, especially if there's a possibility for them to become permanent residents in the future. So therefore, these are sort of all attempts to help them get over that hump, access to grants would let them finish their education. In-state tuition will make it easier for them to get their education. But even after they get their education, if they don't have legal status, they have very, very difficult time entering the labor market.

NNAMDIBut Muzaffar, some legal immigrants oppose the Dream Act. Why is that?

CHISHTII'm sorry, many legal immigrants?

NNAMDIMany legal immigrants oppose the Dream Act.

CHISHTIWell, you know, it's the same thing about our -- this is the story about our immigration. You know, we have always been an ambivalent country about immigrants. We always love and hate immigrants at the same time, and sometimes the most anti-immigrant people are people who have been here just recently. They want to come and lift the plank for everyone else. It's as much a part of the American ambivalent sentiment as everyone else.

CHISHTILike if we made it legally why are these people not making it legally, and, you know, that's a very interesting philosophical question. The most -- I think the quick response to that is that I think if these people had the legal means of coming in, they will come legally. The way our immigration system today is that a lot of people who we meeting in our labor market have almost no legal opportunities to enter.

CHISHTIBut they are highly in demand in the country. So the laws of supply and demand are working in many ways magically except that given our immigration structure, people have to use the legal channels as against legal channels to use them.

NNAMDIWendy Cervantes, Alabama has seen the strongest immigrations laws so far, even harsher than Arizona's. Tell us about what passed there last year.

CERVANTESYes. It actually was one of the most -- one of the toughest bills we've seen around the country, and specifically because it actually went -- I mean, there's a lot of reasons. It actually did things as extreme as restricting access to things like water and electricity without having a social security number, but I think one of the most extreme provisions with regards to education is that it actually required schools to document the immigration status of both students and parents, and when that provision of the law did go into effect for two weeks before it being enjoined, we did see over 2,000 Latino children stop arriving -- stop showing up to school.

NNAMDIAnd Muzaffar, Alabama is not the only state to pass laws restricting access to state schools, but it's my understanding that the Obama administration is challenging these provisions.

CHISHTIYes. Obama administration is challenging the Alabama. Alabama's law is very, very I think stand on its own. It's unique in the sense that it allows, or it would allow, school officials to look at the legal status of the parents or people who put their kids there. Now that the Obama administration has strongly challenged because it, they believe, conflicts with the 1982 Supreme Court decision which allowed, as I said earlier, the right of kids to go into public schools, because it's a chilling effect, and that's why I think that the case has been challenged.

CHISHTIAs I said earlier, South Carolina has become another state which forbids unauthorized (word?) institutions of learning after high school, which means, you know, community colleges and colleges beyond.

NNAMDII mentioned earlier that there are legal immigrants who oppose tuition equity or Dream Act type laws. Here is Sophia in Ashton, Md. Sophia, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

SOPHIAHello, thank you for taking my call. Yes. I'm calling as an immigrant family, one American-born citizen is a parent, the children were naturalized. We jumped through a lot of hoops, and it wasn't easy, and it was very infuriating on top of the fact with one parent being an American citizen natural born. Anyway, now we have a child approaching college age, and we know he's a great student, great kid, never gets in any trouble. He's not gonna get into University of Maryland because he's a Maryland resident, and...

NNAMDIHe is or is not a Maryland resident?

SOPHIAHe is, but he's not going to get in because it is word on the street, so to speak, that the out-of-state resident is much more attractive at his grade point average because the tuition is quite higher for them to pay. So in order for a Maryland student to get into University of Maryland, their grades and scores have to be much higher than an out-of-state, and that is because the money is tight.

SOPHIASo at this point, now we're going to give more money to people who aren't even U.S. residents. Is that my understanding under this act?

NNAMDIWell, Wendy is probably more familiar with it than I am, but it is my understanding that the students who will be displaced, if you will, if the Maryland Dream Act becomes law are out-of-state students and not in-state students, but here is Wendy Cervantes.

CERVANTESYeah. I think that's exactly right, and, I mean, I completely sympathize with the issues being raised. I don't think those are issues that are really relevant to this specific law because it is those -- the burden would fall on out-of-state students.

SOPHIAI'm not sure I follow you. From my understanding, these students would be able to get in-state tuition rates. Is that correct?

CERVANTESYes.

NNAMDIIf they...

SOPHIAYeah. So then that's money...

NNAMDIYou know, I think Delegate Anne Kaiser might still be available, and she is the one who has the expertise on this. So if we can pull her up and hear her voice, then Delegate Kaiser, can you clarify for Sophia?

KAISERYes. All of our four-year colleges in Maryland have a standard of how many students they accept from in-state and out-of-state. College Park, our flagship, accepts about 25 percent out-of-state students. That will remain the same, but while -- here's the nuance. While these undocumented immigrants will have -- get to pay in-state tuition rates, they will be essentially coming out of the bucket of out-of-students. So they're not taking the spot of any documented student.

KAISERWe simplified that in the bill, that that would not happen. And along with College Park, we do have 11 other four-year schools in the state that are public schools that are excellent institutions as well.

NNAMDISophia?

SOPHIAI understood they wouldn't be taking anybody's spot. I'm talking about if there is a pot of money and the money has a finite amount to it, that money will run dry. Is that correct? And it will run dry if it -- when it goes, so whether it goes to students who are Maryland residents legally, or who are not Maryland residents legally, that's what I take issue with.

NNAMDIDelegate Kaiser?

KAISERI'm not sure what pot of money Sophia is referring to. The same percentage of in-state citizens will be accepted at the University of Maryland College Park, and these undocumented students are taking the spot of an out-of-state student, and I'm not sure what pot of money she's referring to.

NNAMDIWell, allow me to broad...

KAISERWe can afford this as a state. The other states who have done this have shown that fewer than one percent of their students fit in this category and that it's not a big expense.

NNAMDISophia, thank you for your call. Muzaffar Chishti, let me raise the broader question with you that Sophia was raising, and that is, opponents of Dream Act laws point to the cost to tax payers of subsidizing the education of those who are not here legally, especially at a time when so many states are struggling financially. That's what Sophia seems to be getting to. Care to comment?

CHISHTII guess so. And I think, you know, frankly we will see the fiscal analysis of the Maryland law. The only fiscal analysis, you know, is from the state of Texas, which in 2010 first of all concluded two things. This is from the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board. It said the vast majority of the people who are eligible under the Texas bill attend community colleges or technical schools. They don't go into the high flying, you know, highbrow colleges.

CHISHTIAnd those students, if you look at their tuition and fees based in 2010, there was 32.7 million in 2010, and the state spent 21.6 million in educating them. So in federal taxes, this is a net gain. So the cost issue is always I think skewed because people don't understand that even when we give in-state tuition to the unauthorized, they're paying tuition, and they're parents are paying taxes, so if you look at the overall cost and benefit analysis, it is not harmful to the state of Texas, or potentially in this case, Maryland.

NNAMDIHere is John in Lorton, Va. John, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOHNHello, Kojo, how are you?

NNAMDII'm well.

JOHNHey everybody. Hey I just had a quick question. You know, I think that the critics of these programs should be very much a key of focus should be getting the best students, and giving the best students the best chance for success. So my question really hinges around -- and I understand now about the in-state, out-of-state tuition pot where it comes from, but is it possible that this program actually will undermine the competition, which is very intense to get into colleges whether you're in-state or out-of state, are students competing turn, per se, where a less qualified student in the state of Maryland that's documented would actually pull out a more academically qualified student who wants to pay out-of-state tuition.

JOHNIt seems like we're trying this meritocracy. We really want to work on getting the best students, and again have…

NNAMDIAllow me to have Wendy Cervantes respond because we're running out of time.

CERVANTESWell, I'm not sure I completely understand the point that was trying to be made. I think it's about trying to get the best students, and I think a lot of -- I mean, I've worked with a lot of students that would qualify for the Dream Act, and who would benefit from these bills, and some of these are some of the hardest working students. Some of these are valedictorians of their class. These are kids who have done a lot of community service, who are, you know, I think do represent the best of the best.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call. We're running out of time very quickly, but if you can just let us know in your view, Muzaffar, why do you think the Dream Act has becomes o controversial over the last couple of years as opposed to say, oh, a decade ago?

CHISHTIThat's a good question. I think a decade ago this was seen to be a highly, you know, sympathetic group of people that were going to be beneficiaries of this bill. I think beginning in 2006 and 2007, Dream Act became sort of embroiled in our larger debate on illegal immigration, and I think the country is highly polarized on illegal immigration, so it became very difficult to disintegrate dream kids from the rest of the legal alien problem.

CHISHTIAnd now it has gotten embroiled in politics, clearly, and we're not generous in our immigration, especially in difficult political times, especially in an election time, and that's I think why it has sort of gotten….

NNAMDIMuzaffar Chishti is the director of the Migration Policy Institute at New York University's School of Law. Thank you for joining us.

CHISHTIThank you.

NNAMDIWendy Cervantes is the Vice President for Immigration and Child Rights Policy at First Focus, which advocates for children and families in federal policy and budget decisions. Wendy, thank you for joining us.

CERVANTESThank you.

NNAMDIHappy birthday, Kaitlin Langford, our former intern. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.