MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Roger Lewis is here. The great suburban shopping mall is on the endangered species list. There was probably one where you grew up, the massive indoor shopping complex with the food court in the middle and the department stores on the bookends, the cookie-cutter kind of mall where you can take your kids to take pictures with Santa Claus and then load up on the calories at Boardwalk Fries or Cinnabon.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIBut developers in the United States are all but giving up on the great indoor mall. By one count, only two such malls have been built anywhere in America during the past two years. Instead, developers are turning their attention to building town center-style complexes, shopping centers that more closely resemble small villages, places with their own streets, sidewalks, squares and fountains.

MR. KOJO NNAMDISome developers in our region are even trying to demallify (sic) indoor malls that already exist, like a project at White Flint Mall in Rockville that calls for enclosed space and replacing it with a mixed use town center-style shopping destination. So why is America falling out of love with the shopping mall that so many of us came to know it? Joining us to help explain this is Roger Lewis. He's an architect who writes the "Shaping the City" column for The Washington Post. He's also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland, College Park. Roger, always a pleasure.

MR. ROGER LEWISAlways a pleasure to join you. Thank you.

NNAMDIAnd always a pleasure to have you join the conversation by calling 800-433-8850, sending us a tweet, @kojoshow. Why do you think it seems that America has fallen out of love with the indoor shopping mall as we know it? 800-433-8850 or go to our website, kojoshow.org. Roger, millions and millions of Americans are going to spend a disproportionate amount of their time in the coming weeks in the kinds of shopping malls that have become staples of our popular culture.

NNAMDIBut our holiday shopping seasons may be spent in very different places in the years to come because it seems that nobody is building indoor shopping malls anymore, the Washington Post reporting last week that only two large-scale shopping malls have been built in America since 2009. Why are we falling out of love with shopping malls?

LEWISVery good question. Lots of answers. I hope our listeners will provide some of them. I think the -- what's interesting, I'm old enough to remember when there were no regional shopping malls.

NNAMDIOh, yeah.

LEWISI mean, I -- when I grew up as a kid in Houston, Texas, where there are now lots of them, you went shopping downtown. People would actually go downtown to the department stores or go to the local strip centers. I think the -- I think part of it is that the generational shifts -- I mean, I -- my perception is in part that people of -- not the boomers so much, but their children actually have turned away from the mall because they want to live a different lifestyle.

LEWISThey enjoy walking around outside, even if it's -- even if they have to carry an umbrella occasionally. I think they -- I think there are more and more people who are not particularly fond of the ritual of driving into -- particularly on weekends, into the congested areas around shopping malls, which can be worse than rush hour during weekdays, finding a parking space, hoping to remember where the parking space is, walking through the parking lot, getting into the structure, trying to then navigate, which isn't always easy.

LEWISI mean, I think that the -- for a long time, the shopping malls seemed to be the idea because everything was in one place. But they've now discovered that you can still have everything in one place, but you can do it in streets and blocks with sidewalks and people eating outdoors, et cetera.

NNAMDISo if the indoor mall is going the way of the dodo here, is it fair to say that the town center shopping complex is what's taking its place? What is the appeal of the town center-style approach?

LEWISWell, I think we ought to clarify that. Not all shopping centers are going to go away, and I think there are a lot regional shopping malls that will be around for a long time, probably because there are no alternatives. I mean, once you move out of the central city and beyond the inner ring of suburbs...

NNAMDIOf suburbs. When you get to the exurbs then...

LEWISYeah. When you start getting a peripheral, there are a lot -- the shopping malls, the regional interior malls that we know that -- they're not going to disappear. I don't think all of them are going to disappear. A lot of them will be transformed. We know there's a turnover in retailers. I think the -- I think we -- so we have to recognize that there is some selectivity going on. For example, the mall at Columbia, the regional shopping mall that Rouse built in the late '60s in Columbia, much of that mall is going to stay where it is, but the context is going to change.

LEWISInstead of it being surrounded by parking, acres and acres of parking, the owners currently are going to -- who own it currently, are going to impose a whole new pattern of blocks and streets...

NNAMDIYep.

LEWIS...so the mall will -- 25 years from now will actually be embedded in urban fabric that will make the place feel like a city or part of a city.

NNAMDIEven if it's in the exurbs?

LEWISYeah.

NNAMDIOkay.

LEWISEven if it's in the exurbs. We have seen -- you have to be very site specific. We've seen the big-box phenomenon over the last 25 years.

NNAMDIYeah. I was thinking about -- isn't Wal-Mart basically a small enclosed mall?

LEWISIn effect, it is. On the other hand, Wal-Mart is now talking about building smaller...

NNAMDIYep.

LEWIS...more atomized structures here in Washington. We see a giant, a very large giant embedded in Columbia Heights in Washington, D.C. in a mixed-use building. We -- for years, if you get down to the strip center, we've seen -- strip centers anchored by usually a drugstore and a supermarket, that's probably going to disappear. Those buildings, by the way, are always built to be obsolete within 20 years. They're cheaply built. They're ugly. We'll talk about ugly later.

NNAMDISure, yeah.

LEWISBut we now see in Alexandria, there's a Whole Foods and a -- in a building on top of which -- on top of the Whole Foods are condominium apartments. We -- I think that -- on the other hand, when you get out to Tysons Corner, there's also going to be -- it's 1,700 acres, going to be redone.

NNAMDIYep.

LEWISThose -- the Tysons I and Tysons II Malls will probably stay, unlike White Flint, where they're going to -- that whole area is being redone. But, again, Tysons is going to look very different, if all goes according to plan, in 25 years. It will look more like a city.

NNAMDII know that you have been at least peripherally involved, probably more involved than peripherally with what's going on out on Rockville Pike at White Flint. What is your first (word?) opinion of what's being planned there?

LEWISOh, I think they're doing the right thing. I mean, I think the county's plan is the correct one, which is to take advantage of the fact that the White Flint area -- it's actually very strategically located. They have a Metro transit access there. It's seconds -- if the traffic is good, it's only a few dozen seconds from a number of regional highways. The Beltway is not far away. The -- if you go look at the -- if you look at it from 30,000 feet, it's a hodgepodge of densities and uses.

LEWISIt's ugly. I don't want to diminish, by the way, the -- at least my feeling that a lot of the reaction, a lot of the changes are coming because an awful lot of the retail environment is visually architecturally unattractive. I think what they're doing at White Flint is saying to the world, this is a place that has developed under suburban concept, suburban ideas, but it really needs to be an urban place.

LEWISAnd then, they ask the question: Well, what does that mean to be urban? Well, it means having streets and blocks, higher density, mixed uses, vibrancy, 24/7 activity. I mean, it means a lot of things, and that's why I think the county is pursuing it.

NNAMDIAnd even if the malls that are not in the -- close in suburbs are likely to be changing their design in order to have more of the appearance of streetscapes and the like, what do you think is driving that?

LEWISI think it's probably, again, a combination of trying to make a place that's kind -- on the downslope come back to life, and one of the things that you can do is change the look of the place. Turn it -- turn your sedan into a convertible. By the way, one sees a lot of those kinds of facilities in places like California, Southern California, Texas, Florida. Basically, they're malls without roofs on the concourses. You know, the...

NNAMDIYeah.

LEWISBut the formula still stays the same. I mean, that's not changing. You want two or three big anchor stores. You want a whole lot of other fine-grain retail strung in between the anchors. That is a retail formula that's probably not going to change very much, but the form of it, the architectural form of it could change.

NNAMDIWe're talking about malls and the increasing attractiveness of town center-like shopping areas as opposed to enclosed malls. We're talking with Roger Lewis and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. In what kinds of places do you plan on doing your holiday shopping this year? Are there types of malls or shopping complexes that you plan on avoiding, and, if so, why? 800-433-8850. You can send us a tweet, @kojoshow. Here is Jonathan in Dumfries, Va. Hi, Jonathan.

JONATHANYeah. Hi, Kojo. Thanks for having me on your show. I was calling out here in the exurbs, a town of (word?) out here in Prince William County was pretty much bulldozed over for town centers. They're going to incorporate the Quantico Marine base, the Iwo Jima statue out there into, like, a traffic circle. From what I understand, they're going to, you know, build a town center, you know, where the town used to be and also increase the lanes on Route 1 there where the town is located for more traffic convenience.

NNAMDIWhat do you think about that idea, Jonathan?

JONATHANI think it's a great idea. Route 1 is not the best-looking place 'cause, you know, all the strip malls and stuff...

NNAMDIOh, yeah.

JONATHAN...so that will be a type of, you know, thing that can draw people in, I think.

NNAMDIAnd you're not a big fan of the enclosed mall anymore?

JONATHANI think we probably need a mix of both.

NNAMDIOh, okay. Roger, from the aesthetic perspective, or an architectural perspective, have you ever run across an enclosed shopping mall where you were impressed by the building from an architectural or an artistic perspective?

LEWISYes. I mean, I've seen some. Some of them are actually in cities. I mean, I -- one of the most impressive I remember -- I haven't been there in a long time -- is in Toronto. There's an immense shopping complex in Toronto that's, I think, quite interesting architecturally. There -- I think, I was talking with our producer, Michael Martinez, about South Point down in Durham, N.C., that I've been to, which has some very nice places. I mean, it feels good. It's really laid out a lot like the California malls. Again, it's roofless. You walk outside. It feels a little bit like a traditional townscape.

LEWISI think there are some -- not a lot -- that are not bad. And, of course, often the stores if you -- depending on what store you walk in, sometimes a great deal of architectural thought and money has gone into the interior design of the stores themselves, the individual retail operations. On the other hand, just this past week, I had to go to a mall near the University of Maryland. Beltway Plaza Mall, it's on Greenbelt Road. It's sad. I mean, the whole experience is so dismal, visually and aesthetically. You know, it's been added to piecemeal.

LEWISThe parking lot has some structure in it that's -- they added decorative, but the whole place is frightfully ugly. It was -- there weren't very many people in it. It -- it's...

NNAMDIIt clearly had to go.

LEWISIt's going to go. I mean, I don't know when it's going to go. I'm -- you know, the real estate, again, is strategically located. It can't survive. Montgomery County has over 100 strip shopping centers that -- many of which are actually not doing well economically. They're going to go. They're going to be taken down, and something else is going to have to happen on those sites.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. If you have called, stay on the line. When we come back, we'll continue this conversation on the changing face of indoor malls and the attractiveness of town center-type shopping-scapes, and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. What do you make of this trend toward town center-style shopping complexes that have streets and sidewalks? Do you prefer spending time at them over traditional indoor malls? You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Go to our website, kojoshow.org, and join the conversation there. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation with Roger Lewis. We're talking about what's happening with enclosed malls, with only two of them being built in the United States since 2009, and taking your calls at 800-433-8850, or you can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Roger, in many ways, the shopping mall, whether indoors or in the town center style, is a pretty ancient concept. You can go to countries in Northern Africa and the Middle East and cruise through what are known as souks that have been central markets for hundreds, even thousands of years, no?

LEWISWell, I just was in one in October. My wife and I went to Morocco, and we were in a number of souks. And, of course, when I was in the Peace Corps in Tunisia, I went to souks weekly to buy things. Souks are essentially -- they're sometimes indoors, and it's covered. The passageways bordered by these very fine grain texture of shops that might only be 8 feet wide and 15 or 20 feet deep. Those have been around for a long time. What's great about them is they tend to be organized, in many cases, by type of merchandise.

LEWISSo you go into the spice area, or you can go into the sheet metal and metal working area. And you go into another area where you get the butchered meats, and another area is vegetables, another area is the olives. That's very convenient actually.

NNAMDII was about to say that helps you to not get lost.

LEWISExactly. Exactly. Well, you can still get lost in them. But, I mean, the -- but the -- certainly, the tradition in many, many cultures over thousands of years is to create shopping complexes, souks, and you do find also within these medinas and souks, occasionally, larger shops. I mean, in Fez, my wife and I visited a couple of places that are really -- their version of a big-box store, which, instead of it being 8 by 15 or 20 feet, was actually a multi-leveled space that might have as much as 4- or 5,000 square feet in it.

LEWISAgain, the experience -- and you're often walking on very narrow passages through these souks that might only be 2 meters wide, along with, in some places, donkeys and animals. I think the idea is the same that you walk through the souk, you walk past a bunch of storefronts, you stop where you need to buy something or just to look. I mean, that's still a valid concept.

LEWISI mean, walking around Bethesda Row, you walk down the sidewalk, and there's a bunch of restaurants and a bunch of shops. That is not going to change. I mean, that is how we like to shop. Now, we haven't talked about virtual -- e-shopping.

NNAMDIOh, this true.

LEWISIt's another factor, another force. Cyber shopping is certainly going to change some of our behaviors.

NNAMDIIndeed, and we have a lot of people who'd like to address this subject, so let's start with Erin in Alexandria, Va. Erin, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ERINHi. Thank you for taking my call. I don't -- I'm not too familiar with the malls in the D.C. Metro area, but I am very familiar with the malls in Tampa. And these conversations kind of sparked my memory about hanging out in those big-box indoor malls -- and they're loud, and the lighting is terrible -- and then how recently in Tampa, they just built an outdoor mall, and it is beautiful. And it's hard to think of it as a mall, though, because it's all outside, but it's really great 'cause if you don't want to go downtown, you can go there. And I was thinking about the (unintelligible).

NNAMDIThey built it just in time for the National Political Convention that's coming to Tampa next year.

ERINOh, perfect timing, perfect timing. If you want to be perfect -- it's perfect. It's a really great place, but I was thinking about the specialty shopping you were talking about in different countries. And it's, you know, not that special here, but the shopping -- I realize that, with these outdoor malls, the shopping has kind of changed. Like, for instance, there's no more Spencer Gifts, you know?

ERINThere's no more of that tackiness, and they're not trying to appeal to -- like, they're trying appeal to everyone, not just teenagers that are just going to sit around, you know? I don't know if that makes much sense, but it got me thinking about that.

NNAMDIWell, let me ask Roger. Is our shopping habits, in part, driving the new design of malls?

LEWISProbably, to some extent. I mean, I think, there's -- there are two things at work. There are these many familiar national chains that -- where the stores appear over and over again. You see the same brands, the same products. And we've talked in the previous show about comfort and sameness and being able to go from one place to another and find the same, familiar things. The problem is that in many communities, historically, there have been -- there's been a mix of those kinds of places and also what we call community convenience retail outlets.

LEWISPlaces that are not part of national chain, well-financed, well-capitalized retailers, but rather are stores owned by locals that are selling things that are -- everything from dry cleaners to used bookstores to places that sell sporting goods that -- but not one of the chains, these places are struggling to come up with the rents that they need to be in some of these newly developed areas and new -- either redeveloped or new construction.

LEWISWhen you run the numbers and the rents are much higher than they had been historically -- this is -- plagues over spring in Bethesda. This is an issue in Alexandria. It's an issue all over the country for that part of the retail industry. So where do I go if -- where would I find the beauty parlor if I'm in the salon usage? I think that's going to be a problem, especially since a lot of that you can't do online. You can't get your haircut online.

NNAMDIOne can only wish. Here is Malcolm in Germantown, Md. Malcolm, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MALCOLMThank you, Kojo. I'm really enjoying your show. I am old enough to remember when Boston had an active downtown region. Everyone went downtown for the shopping, even people in outlying suburbs. And I remember before the Boston area had it's first shopping mall. But what I really miss is when we used to have cities not with just -- with commercial areas and residential areas, but we had cities where the buildings were mixed use.

MALCOLMNow, we still have that, I believe, in Paris where the building -- there may be six-story apartment buildings, and their first floor is always for commercial use. So there are people living where the stores are. The cities aren't deserts at night, full of crime. And people can shop, and they have the comfort there, the feeling of belonging. And they have neighborhoods, and leasing have spread throughout the city everywhere, not just in a few commercial areas. What stops us from returning to such a model in the United States? And by the...

NNAMDIRoger.

LEWISWell, first, I can't help but share with you, Malcolm, my memories of Boston in 19 -- early '60s when I was there. And I remember going to Jordan Marsh downtown. I mean, you went shopping downtown. I remember buying my first pair of wooden skis for $25 in downtown Boston.

NNAMDIGood luck with that then.

LEWISYeah. Well, I worked. I actually worked it when I was in high school in Houston. I worked in a downtown department store. What has happened? Let's get back to causes. When Eisenhower created the Interstate Highway System, after World War II -- I mean, the pattern you're describing is a pre-World War II pattern. After the World War II, America built this Interstate Highway System.

LEWISThat system, to accommodate automobiles, is a major, major influence on the pattern of retail, real estate development in the -- over the last half century because, once you set up the Interstate Highway System, you make the exurbs -- the suburbs and the exurbs accessible. And, of course, where do you want to locate a place to shop if it's going to serve a large area of low-density development? You want to be near the highway network.

LEWISAnd so what happened is, starting in the '50s, hundreds, literally hundreds, of these shopping malls sprung up almost always located very close to a highway ramp leading to the network. It made complete sense. I get in my car at my house. I drive whatever the distance is on this network. I pull into the parking lot. I go shop. It was the formula. It was the logic. What the next 100 years will bring us, I think, is a work in progress.

NNAMDIMalcolm, thank you very much for your call.

MALCOLMThank you.

NNAMDIHere's what we got in the form an email from Kitty Bell. "One of the aspects of mall blight to my eyes is the size of the parking area. Regardless of whether a mall is enclosed or the town center-type, what can be done to change what I assume is an outdated, possibly never accurate or necessary, formula that mandates excessive parking lots?"

LEWISWell, that's -- that is still very much a matter of discussion debated among planners and people who finance real -- retail real estate. The parking ratios, they're predicated on assumptions. They're mandated usually by zoning ordinances -- so many spaces for so many thousand square feet. It's true. There are many, many, many times in here when you can drive out to these shopping centers, and the parking lot is mostly empty. What they've done, generally, is size the parking lots for peak load, Christmas -- you know, what's happening right now. Right now is, I mean...

NNAMDIExactly right. What those parking lots are built for.

LEWISI can remember not long after the Tysons malls were built -- I remember my wife and I going out there once, and we couldn't find a parking space, whatever it was, a week before Christmas. I mean, we drove around and around -- and this is a place where they have garages, where they have not just service parking lot. So what's happened -- and Wal-Mart does the same thing. They all do the same thing.

LEWISThey want their parking lots sized on the assumption that it's cheap to provide this parking space since it's on grade, it's just bituminous paving. They want it sized for peak load conditions, and that's -- so that's why we have these funny -- 98 percent of the year, the parking lots are under-utilized.

NNAMDIOn to Arlene in Springdale, Md. Arlene, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ARLENEHello.

NNAMDIHi, Arlene. We can hear you.

ARLENEHi, Kojo. Okay. Well, good. I had to take my speaker off, so I thought I had lost you when I did that. Mr. Lewis, I just want to say that I ditto your remarks on Beltway Plaza. Funny, I didn't run into you yesterday. I was there all day...

NNAMDIYou all were the only two people there, huh?

ARLENENot many. It is a dismal place, and I was surprised when I saw the big buses coming up under the sheltered area. But I went in to go to JoAnn's, and I went upstairs on the escalator. I got upstairs, and I was shocked. There was this big lot. I have seen them in shopping centers and so forth, but I was really shocked to see all this area up there. Turned out JoAnn's was downstairs, and I had to come back downstairs.

ARLENEIt is strange, but, you know, I've noticed these changes, too, with malls. I used to go to Capital Plaza, which is not too far from me, but then Wal-Mart took it over. And since I'm not a fan of Wal-Mart, all the little shops left, and so I don't go there anymore. I remember Iverson Mall. I don't know if you know about that one.

NNAMDISure, out on Branch Avenue. Sure.

ARLENEBranch Avenue, yeah, and I think that turned into something else when (word?) and other big stores left. And, of course, I'm very close to what was Landover Mall, and, you know, they had good (word?) stores. And then they all left. There's only Sears there.

NNAMDIThat's RFK Stadium's area now.

ARLENEYeah, exactly.

NNAMDIBut what do you like today?

ARLENEWell, my favorite is Downtown Silver Spring. I don't know what you think of that, but I drive down here in Springdale quite often to go to Downtown Silver Spring. Of course, you've got to have some...

NNAMDIThe increasing popularity of Downtown Silver Spring. You go there on a Saturday afternoon. You see people pouring out of the Metro, and you say, where are all these people going? Half of them are going just to hang out.

LEWISYeah, I mean, so Downtown Silver Spring, again, is a good example of what a combination of planning and private investment and bringing in the right mix of retail and restaurants and theaters -- I mean, what makes these places, like Silver Spring, work, again, is that they are -- it feels like a city. You're basically -- you're not inside a mall where you don't know if it's raining or winter or summer, or the sun's out or hail is falling.

LEWISYou walk around on the streets. You encounter people in a different way than you do in a shopping mall concourse. I mean, I think that Silver Spring is a very good example of how a place that was moribund 25 years ago -- and, by the way, some of you may remember when the people who -- out in the Midwest who did Mall of America wanted -- were proposing this gigantic, really quite ridiculous idea of building an immense, a totally interior mall that would just kind of eat Silver Spring. That was fortunately stopped.

LEWISI mean, that got stopped. And we see now why it should have been stopped because what's there now, I think, is far more interesting and far more appropriate than what was proposed...

NNAMDIWell, I'm glad you brought that up. And if you've called, stay on the line. Arlene, thank you very much for your call, but you brought up the Mall of America. It wasn't 20 years ago that the ginormous Mall of America opened outside of Minneapolis, Minn. It's an indoor mall, so big that an amusement park actually fits inside of it. Google just announced partnership with that mall this week, so that people can use Google maps to find their way indoors from shop to shop or, I guess, to the bathroom. What do you think it's going to take before anyone tries to attempt a project that big again?

LEWISIt's unlikely to happen again. I mean, I just think the whole -- today, right now, in real estate investment, the notion is to build incrementally, phase things. I mean, the advantage, again, of creating a traditional network pattern of blocks, streets with lots, is you can -- that's a much more flexible pattern of land use than a shopping mall. Once you build a shopping mall with the anchors and the stores in between, that structure is pretty much fixed and not easily modified.

LEWISYou can change the tenants in each store, but you can't change the -- you can't do much more than that. I think the -- I don't think we're going to see any more Mall of America projects. I mean, I think that -- 'cause I've never been there. But my understanding, it's basically a theme park combined with a shopping mall. What we haven't mentioned, of course, what's happened to many airports. There are some airports that have turned into shopping malls.

LEWISAnd one I have seen in the course of changing some years back was the Pittsburgh -- airport in Pittsburgh, which, I think, now is almost -- it's sort of a shopping mall -- and, by the way, you can get a plane there. I mean, it's -- so that's an interesting phenomenon in a number of airports in this country.

NNAMDIHere is Mary in Tysons Corner, Va. Mary, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MARYHi, yes. Well, just following up on the airport. You know, when Union Station was refurbished, we used to call it the trains at Union Station Mall.

MARYAnd that's very recent. But I'm calling about the sort of manufactured town centers. I mean, we tend to go to Fairfax Corner, which has some little square-type area. There's usually some event going on. And I prefer it to the soul-sucking Tysons Corner anytime. But I still find that I don't like the piped-in music when I walk around from store to store. It's the same when you're walking on the sidewalk because one developer owns the entire thing. And what happens with that kind of situation is that the mom and pop search is squeezed out.

MARYAnd you don't really have a true vibrant town. What you have is just a developer who's put the mall outside. And I'd hate for places like Annandale, which are a real hodgepodge, when they try to renovate it and turn it into something like a town center that you get rid of all of those mom and pop, funky little places.

NNAMDIRoger?

LEWISYeah. That's what we were alluding to earlier when I was talking about the economic challenge.

NNAMDI(word?) yes.

LEWISAnd -- now, that's a real problem. And it's being discussed as an -- as a policy challenge in Montgomery County and other parts of this area and elsewhere. How do you keep -- how do you hang on to the funk? How do you keep the locals able to thrive? I mean, it's one of the reasons, I think, that you're seeing some resistance to Wal-Mart showing up in D.C. There's great -- there's anxiety that they're going to end up just driving out the local community-oriented retailers.

NNAMDIMary, thank you very much for your call. If you've called, stay on the line. We'll be taking a short break. If the lines are busy, go to our website, kojoshow.org. Ask a question there. Is there a shopping mall or complex in the Washington region that you think is in dire need of a facelift or maybe even demolition? Roger has mentioned at least one such already. 800-433-8850 or simply send us a tweet, @kojoshow. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation with Roger Lewis. He is an architect who writes the "Shaping the City" column for The Washington Post and professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland, College Park. We're talking about the declining popularity of enclosed malls and the increasing popularity of town center-type shopping areas. Roger, talk a little bit about what the attractiveness is of a variety of dining establishments in these areas.

LEWISYeah. I think that's another thing that has sort of run its course, the giant food court with -- ring by 15, 20, 30 little independent food sellers. I think that works all right with kids. But I think there are a lot of people who would prefer walking down the street where there's a -- where there are restaurants, bistros and cafes, and even a Starbucks or two, as opposed to making their way into a food court and -- especially in shopping in the holiday season when the shopping is intense, you're lucky to get into the food court. I mean, I, again, can remember going to these malls...

NNAMDIWhen you can get in and cannot find a chair.

LEWISYeah. I can remember many places where you just could barely make your way into them, much less find a place to sit. I think -- so I think -- it's not that the food court is going to disappear. And, for example, we were talking earlier about malls that are more successful than others architecturally. Pentagon City is a mall. It's a big interior shopping mall that, I think, is better done than many, particularly the interior. I don't mind that food court as much as some because it's actually the -- it's the public square of that place.

LEWISThey made a very good decision there at Pentagon City to make the food court, really, the courtyard of the building as opposed to being a destination that you have to go to and force your way in. I think -- nevertheless, I think, people, they're still -- there are going to be more and more people who say -- look around and say, I really would just assume walk along a street, look at the menus of restaurant options, pick one, whether it's lunch or dinner, go in and have a meal. And I think if you don't have those, a retail street is doomed to be very quiet, if not unsuccessful, economically.

NNAMDII've been accused of going to Pentagon City to go to the food court simply because that's where I tend to go first before I do my shopping. We got an email from Davis, who says, "All things said, I'd rather walk outside than hang out in the weirdo indoor lighting at a shopping mall. There is a mostly indoor mall in Santa Monica that was designed by Frank Gehry. It's right by the beach. You can sit on the roof of their outdoor food court and stare at the waves, way cool.

NNAMDI"But in most places, we're talking about trading weird indoor lighting for a fake-looking clock tower and cheesy fountain with the same old chain stores. You're going to be headed to the same stores and eating at Maggiano's or P.F. Chang's no matter where you go."

NNAMDIOn the other hand, in defense of the indoor shopping mall, we got a Facebook comment from Teresa, who says, "I've been complaining about these town centers for years now. I'm much more likely to leisurely walk around out of the elements and therefore possibly buy more than I am at the centers. At the town centers, I go only to the store I'm focused on, and then I'm out. Bring back the enclosed malls of yesterday."

NNAMDIAnd then we got a separate Facebook comment from Sylvia Brown who's a local ANC in Washington. "Is D.C. USA a town center? Are Fort Totten and Skyland following that model? I fear East Capitol and 58 might end up a strip mall or desolate, like land over hills." D.C. USA a town center, probably.

LEWISThat's -- I think that's the intention. Fort -- the mention of Fort Totten, which I also -- I happened to drive by there recently. I haven't seen the latest plans. But my understanding is, again, the plan there is to make that city-like as opposed to shopping mall-like. I mean, I think this illustrates two things. There's no question that there are -- for a lot of people, the shopping mall, the interior shopping mall is still something that they enjoy using, and it's convenient. And, as the reader points out, it is more comfortable.

LEWISIn my hometown of Houston, there's no question. In the summer, you don't want to be outside. I mean, it's so hot and humid. It's so nasty. They've actually built underground tunnels lacing all through downtown Houston so people in the summertime can get from one block to another without ever walking outside. And in Minneapolis, they have the same kind of system, only it's elevated a level above the streets.

LEWISSo you can walk between areas, shopping and going from one building to another 18 feet above the street, because it gets so cold. It's just so bloody cold. I -- you know, there's not one size fits all. I think what we're saying here today is that the pervasive model of 25 years ago is no longer as pervasive as it was.

NNAMDIHere is Meg in Silver Spring, Md. Meg, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MEGHi, Kojo. Hi, Mr. Lewis. I wanted to know about what's going on with Georgetown Mall. That's such a beautiful -- architecturally beautiful space. I actually like going in there just because of the space, but it's desolate as far as merchandising.

NNAMDIWell, so many of the successful enclosed malls seem to benefit from anchor tenants that draw customers. Georgetown Park Mall, which you're referring to, has been working overtime to rope in such an anchor tenant like Target to bring customers back. Should we interpret, Roger, the seeming reluctance of anchor tenants to come to an enclosed place like Georgetown Park as a sign that that model, which Meg apparently loves, is beyond repair?

LEWISWell, I don't think, necessarily, it's beyond repair. I mean, I -- again, I look at the success of the Target store at Columbia Heights as perhaps a model that might be applicable to Georgetown Park. Georgetown Park -- the problem with Georgetown Park is, in part, it's in Georgetown, where I don't need to tell listeners that the...

NNAMDIAbout the outdoor shopping.

LEWISWell -- and the traffic.

NNAMDIYes.

LEWISI mean, it can be just horrendous, horrendous, horrendous. I think it's -- I think that, probably, there is a right selection of tenants, retail tenants, and maybe eateries, for that matter, that could go into Georgetown Park and make it a success. I don't know what that mix should be. I mean, I think the people who own Georgetown Park are working very hard to try and figure that out.

NNAMDII find it interesting that the -- there seems to be steady tenants in all the places with street access in Georgetown Park.

LEWISWith -- yes, yes. Well, that -- that's the best of both worlds...

NNAMDIYeah.

LEWIS...so you can get in from both sides.

NNAMDIFrom M street, or you can...

LEWISI mean, I suspect that if there is -- I don't know where this -- what the status of negotiations is. I mean, I -- it would be interesting to see a Target store go into Georgetown Park and see what happens because there's no question Target has a retail audience, a retail customer base that, right now, if you live anywhere near Georgetown, you can't get to a Target very easily. You have to go over to Columbia Heights. And it might do very well there. I don't know. I don't know the answer.

NNAMDIMeg, thank you very much for your call. We move on to Sheila in Potomac, Md. Sheila, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

SHEILAHi. I'm calling -- I live in Potomac, and I'm calling about Potomac's village at the corner of Falls and River.

NNAMDIYes.

SHEILAI remember when I first went there about 20 years ago, I was expecting this charming village, and I was shocked, really, just a huge parking lot and really pretty unattractive. And now that I live in Potomac, I continue to be amazed. The money in that area, I think it could support some more than what we have. The grocery stores are awful, and banks just keep moving there. And it's just this big parking lot where you take your life into your hands battling the old ladies.

LEWISIt's one of those places I know from driving by it en route to some place in Potomac. I...

NNAMDISame here.

LEWISI've never really taken a look at it the way you have, Sheila, but it's interesting to hear this. I mean, you're describing something that's very common, which is that a lot of these places have grown by accretion. They haven't really been designed. No one sat down, whatever, 50, 60, 70 years ago and said, what -- how would we really make a wonderful town center here for the -- for Potomac? How would we shape it? What will we do to make that?

LEWISIt hasn't worked that way. I think that there's a lot of disparate property interest. They've developed. Things have sprung up as the market needs. I mean, that's what's driven the development. It's not been coordinated. It's not coherent. It's not architecturally or aesthetically unified in any way. And we -- that's typical. That would -- that's what's happened in 98 percent of the kinds of centers that you have in Potomac.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Sheila. We'll go to Will in Washington. Will, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

WILLHi, Kojo. Great to be on with you, really interesting show. I wondered if you might have some experience or there are memories with one of the oldest shopping malls I've ever been in, where my wife and I purchased our wedding ring, the Stabroek Market in Georgetown.

NNAMDIOh, yeah, the Stabroek Market in Georgetown, Guyana, where I am from. It is not unlike markets that you will find in several parts of the world. How long ago did you buy your wedding ring there? You found a jeweler in Stabroek Market.

WILLThis was, I guess, four years ago. It's actually our ring we bought on our first anniversary trip down there. Her family is all Guyanese.

NNAMDIOh, good. Well, congratulations to you. And I suspect, Roger, that that's more comparable to the souks that you mentioned earlier...

LEWISYeah, probably.

NNAMDI...where you can find certain stores in certain parts of the market. I certainly grew up at Stabroek Market and took my sons there some years ago. I took my sons to Guyana. And while I was having my meals in the hotel, they went off to Stabroek Market and had their meals every day in the market and saved a great deal of money. Did you have meals there at all, Will?

WILLWe did get a bite there, but we actually tended to go to the Coal Pot -- I don't know if you know -- which was just down here at St. George's.

NNAMDIYeah. Yeah.

WILLSo that was one of our favorite lunch places.

NNAMDIAnd George is the oldest wooden cathedral in the world. Thank you very much for your call, Will. Roger, it's my understanding that you feel the suburban office park is kind of like the cousin of the giant enclosed suburban mall. Do you think the office park will eventually suffer the same fate?

LEWISTo some extent. I was reading earlier this week a -- an op-ed in the -- I think it was in The Wall Street Journal, written by an architect out in the west, lamenting how we've created these office parks, many of which are -- again, everyone's familiar with them -- a building or two or three or four, surrounded by surface parking, maybe with some parking structures, but, overall, very low-density, isolated from anything. You can't walk to anything. You have to get in your car even to go buy a loaf of bread.

LEWISThey're very -- they're unsustainable from an energy point of view. That is, they're very inefficient from an energy point of view. They, too, could start looking a little bit sad if, in fact, the people who would ordinarily occupy them, the tenants that depend on businesses occupying them, decide to go elsewhere or decide they want to be back in town or decide to work virtually -- I mean, what could change the fate of office parks is increasingly -- increasing use of remote -- or what I should say, virtual adjacent city...

NNAMDICorrect.

LEWIS...to use a term of a colleague so that the -- if you get the demand for that space falling off, something will have to happen to all these office parks. But that started, again, after World War II, when it was decided by corporate America that it would be nicer to be out in the suburbs where the parking was free and cheap.

NNAMDITo what degree do you think that some of the malls that are on life support can be retrofitted or reinvented, comparable to what's going on at White Flint? Are there some enclosed malls and strip malls in Washington that you think can -- that can work with or...

LEWISWell, I think a lot of the strip malls are just going to get demolished. I think as far as the larger structures or the regional malls, they're all capable of being transformed or changed. And I think there's discussion -- I think there's a plan afoot out in Virginia. I forget which mall it is, somewhere off of 90 -- 3-95 that -- where they're also envisioning doing the same thing that White Flint is envisioning.

LEWISThey're all -- and, actually, the Columbia Mall, while that's going to stay, they -- there's been talk about eventually pulling the roof off the concourse and making it an outdoor pedestrian promenade. I think, again, each case has to be taken on its own. Probably all malls are capable of some degree of transformation. The question is how much. I've also thought the air rights. I mean, they -- you know, you could start building things over, on top of, start using air rights of these malls since they're so strategically located, in many cases.

NNAMDIAfraid that's all the time we have. Roger Lewis is an architect. He writes the Shaping the City column for The Washington Post. He's also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland, College Park. Roger, thank you so much for joining us.

LEWISThank you.

NNAMDIAnd thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.