MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5, at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Politics Hour," starring Tom Sherwood. I'm Kojo Nnamdi. Tom Sherwood is our resident analyst. He's an NBC 4 reporter and a columnist for the Current Newspapers. Tom, how are you doing?

MR. TOM SHERWOODOh, I'm just so happy it's Friday.

NNAMDII want to test your response to this story, so I won't waste any more time. The United States Capitol Police on Thursday -- this from The New York Times -- the United States Capitol Police on Thursday said they were investigating The Onion, a satiric media organization for making false reports on Twitter, claiming that there was a hostage situation inside the Capitol building.

NNAMDIStarting at 10:33 a.m., The Onion's Twitter account began spewing the fake messages that begin with this post: Breaking, witnesses reporting screams and gunfire heard inside the Capitol building. Ten minutes later, the Twitter account posted: Breaking, Capitol Hill being evacuated. Twelve children held hostage by group of armed congressmen. The posts are related to a satiric article and doctored photo on The Onion's website that describes a fake hostage situation.

NNAMDIThe photos portray Speaker John Boehner holding a gun to a young schoolgirl's head. The article begins with: Brandishing shotguns and semiautomatic pistols, members of the 112th U.S. Congress took a class of visiting schoolchildren hostage today, barricading themselves inside the Capitol Rotunda and demanding $12 trillion in cash.

NNAMDIYou shouldn't laugh. The posts, which were widely shared around the Web, prompted the Capitol Police to issue a statement declaring them fake. Twitter feeds are reporting false information concerning current conditions at the U.S. Capitol. Conditions at the Capitol are currently normal. There is no credibility to these stories or the Twitter feeds. But they're investigating The Onion, Tom Sherwood?

SHERWOODWell, I think the -- are you -- do you want to find out what The Onion did? Call them up, and they'll tell you. You know, I'm a big fan of freedom. Of course, there's a but in here. And I think people should just be aware that it's a Wild West when it comes to Twitter and emails and all kinds of other electronic communications, digital or otherwise.

SHERWOODI think it was a little too much for the very first tweet, if you want to read it again, where it talks about screams and gunfire coming from the Capitol.

NNAMDIThe Onion's Twitter account began with this post: Witnesses reporting screams and gunfire heard inside the Capitol building.

SHERWOODBecause there has been an attack on the Capitol where some Capitol police officers were killed, because there is an almost -- I started to say ludicrous -- hypersensitivity to security issues, I think the first tweet should have been more like the congressmen taking children hostage or something, which has strange credulity in some way. But, you know, I'm a big...

NNAMDII beg to differ. I think as soon as you see The Onion, you say to yourself, wait a minute, we've got to check this out. There's something wrong.

SHERWOODWell, you know, The Onion -- well, there are a lot of people, sophisticated readers and others who know about The Onion. Some people don't. And people who get the tweet and then someone retweets it. If you send me a tweet that says something about our first guest, for example, and it's a joke, and then I retweet it, and people don't know that -- who the guest is, well, then, they won't know it's a joke.

SHERWOODIt's a very -- we're, again, a Wild West world here when it comes to the digital flow of information.

NNAMDII can only remember Jon Stewart several years ago -- it was during the time of the 2004 convention -- being chastised for what he was reporting or not reporting on the show that he does. And he says, it's a fake news show.

NNAMDIWhat is there about that that you don't get?

SHERWOODWell, again, in this wacky world of what is news, you know, sometimes, Jon Stewart gets on his high horse and acts out on things that are serious. So you just don't know when he's joking, but that's part of the show. That's why he has the coveted demographic of 18 to 34 young males listening to his show.

NNAMDIWell, I am going to assume that most people know -- and I could be wrong -- that you don't expect The Onion to be breaking a story about gunfire at the Capitol.

SHERWOODOkay. Well, I think we've onioned (sic) this one enough. We've peeled this story back enough.

NNAMDIYes. And they say that politics is a contact sport, but even in professional football, you can get a penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct. Last week, before the D.C. Council voted on a plan to raise taxes on high-income residents, some council members hurled insults at each other and even used profanity. That said, joining us now in studio is David Catania.

NNAMDIDavid Catania. He is...

SHERWOODI think he was cursing under his breath as you were reading that.

MR. DAVID CATANIATom's got this new German intern, so is this going to turn into the Nuremberg Trials? Do I have a translator?

SHERWOODYes, it is.

NNAMDIIndeed, it is.

CATANIA(unintelligible)

NNAMDIThat's what we had in mind. David Catania is an at-large member...

CATANIAGuilty.

NNAMDI...of the D.C. Council. He's an independent and the chairman of the committee on health.

CATANIAThat's right.

NNAMDIDavid Catania, thank you so much for joining us.

CATANIAKojo, thank you for having me.

SHERWOODAnd now, you know, as you know, he wants to talk about the good news at the United Medical Health Center, at least what he calls good news. But before that, can we talk about the decorum? 'Cause that, as you know...

CATANIANo.

SHERWOOD...despite...

CATANIAI can talk about United Medical Center.

SHERWOODWell, (unintelligible)...

NNAMDIWe will.

SHERWOODI'll ask that question and you weave in the United Medical Center (unintelligible)...

CATANIALook, Tom, I only have 30 minutes. And I can't simply be an experiment for you. Would you let me put this news out?

SHERWOODWell, yes.

CATANIASomeone has got to do your job.

SHERWOODIt's really -- we'll let you do it, but the news that reporters have focused on, and you did not come to the mayor's breakfast with the council members. We were all standing there waiting for you to come in and hurl a grenade or two -- oral grenade, an onion grenade.

CATANIA(unintelligible)...

SHERWOOD(unintelligible) it was very boring. You weren't there.

CATANIAYou know, just -- I'm continuing to disappoint you. I apologize for that in advance. I will do it again in the future, I assure you (unintelligible) Tom.

SHERWOODHave you agreed with the chairman that you're going to be more...

CATANIANo.

SHERWOOD...collegial and all that in these deeds?

CATANIANo, you know, listen, I...

NNAMDIWhy do you think the atmosphere has gotten this way at the council?

CATANIAWell, let me tell you why...

NNAMDIWhat do you think needs to be done about that?

CATANIAWell, let me tell you why. In all honesty, I think, you know, we used to have council breakfasts where we'd have administrative meetings, where we would have kind of open, free and frank discussions. When we changed our open meeting laws to make it, frankly, illegal for us to meet and talk about noncity business, you know, the ability to have kind of an ongoing free dialogue has disappeared, diminished entirely.

CATANIAAnd so you have a lot of pent-up anxiety. You have a lot of issues that are on people's minds that don't get addressed. And, look, everyone understands when you're doing government business, obviously, there needs to be some transparency and openness. That goes without saying.

CATANIABut in all seriousness, the way the law is structured and the way we are organized, we are not allowed to simply have conversations with each other about noncity business or things that are tangentially related, like ethics issues and so on. And so, you know, tempers are, obviously, flaring. And I want to say this...

NNAMDIDo you think if you were allowed to have the opportunity to have private meetings where Tom Sherwood does not insist on sitting in on and being forcibly removed, that you could air out a number of the grievances you might have?

CATANIAI think it's possible. I think that's possible. And in all seriousness, I mean -- and, Tom, if I could just finish -- I think, you know, in all seriousness, levity aside, this -- the political class of the entire country is on the verge of a nervous breakdown. After three years of constant cuts, after all that has been asked of -- and let's face it. People who go into public office are typically people who are pleasers and like to be liked.

CATANIAAnd when you have to dole out one year after another, more bad news, more bad, you know, circumstances, it does take its toll. And so, I think, to be very serious, across this country -- and I participate in national conferences, state legislatures, and I'm involved in a lot of this. I see it -- that the level of acrimony has just skyrocketed across the country. It's not simply here.

CATANIANow, we obviously should do a better job at doubling down and trying to control that seriously. I understand that. But I think it is the product of our times. Everyone is on, you know, seriously, on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

SHERWOODAnd before...

CATANIAExcept you, Tom.

SHERWOODWell, not me, because, you know, this is my bread and butter. But before we get to the United Medical Center, going forward on the -- keeping the same serious...

CATANIABut you're saying (unintelligible)...

SHERWOOD...no, this is a serious tone. I'm moving forward.

CATANIATom, listen, I'm really going to have to break in because I was asked to come and talk about United Medical Center. This is a subject where...

SHERWOODBut this is going to wrap us up.

CATANIANo, it's not because we're going to go through half of my time.

SHERWOODNo, we're not.

CATANIAYes, we are.

SHERWOODJust that you try to answer this question quick.

CATANIATom, we're going to (unintelligible) half of my time. We're not going to talk about that subject that's very important and the reason I was asked to be on the show. I was not asked to be on the show to be, like, the...

SHERWOODI just...

CATANIA...police of potty mouths. I was asked to be on the show to talk about United Medical Center.

SHERWOODNo, no. This is news. I'm moving on. I'm moving on. Here we go. The one thing you're going to do this fall is write an ethics bill. There are non-ethics bills going forward. And before we talk about the hospital, do you have any plans on that? Or are you just going to deal with that as it comes along?

CATANIAAs it comes along.

SHERWOOD'Cause most council members have some proposals they're going to make trying to get ahead of that issue.

NNAMDIOkay.

SHERWOODOkay, hospital.

NNAMDILet's talk about the United Medical Center. People have criticized you for getting too hands-on with that hospital, that you act like you're running the place, so since you're allegedly and accused of running the place, tell us the good news about the place.

CATANIASo this year, the hospital will turn its first profit in more than two decades, period. It is -- you know, according to the hospital association, the CEOs of the city, what has happened there is nothing short of a miracle. In 2010, the hospital lost almost $10 million. The city took it over, foreclosed in July 2010.

CATANIAAnd for this fiscal year, according to the latest financials we've seen, we'll have an operating surplus of in excess of $8 million, allows it to fully fund its operating capital -- or its capital expenditures. And we'll end the year with a profit of nearly $4 million. Now, you recall when Nat Gandhi, our CFO, testified before my committee in July of 2010, he said this hospital had a net deficit of $30 million...

NNAMDIIt's a drag on the city's finances.

CATANIA...and would lose -- right -- and would lose between $750 and $1.2 million a month. Essentially, $30 million in the hole and lose $15 million a year. I explained to him at the time that we had undertaken a number of actions. And, yes, I'll claim to be the architect of this. I brought Children's National Medical Center there with a world-class pediatric E.R. I brought Washington Hospital Center there to take over obstetrics.

CATANIAI brought Howard University there to take over HIV-AIDS and the National Institutes of Health and a bunch of other private partners -- public-private partnerships. We have turned that hospital around through increasing not only patient throughput but also quality of service. And so we will end this year with a hospital that is not a drag, not a drag, but one that actually makes money.

CATANIANow, as far as the $30 million hole, the entire amount that the hospital owes from the pre-July 9, 2010 operations is $3 million, period. So we have $3 million in a hospital that's generating enough money to not only pay for that, but service all of its operating needs going forward and can continue to expand.

NNAMDIIf you have questions...

SHERWOODWhen you...

NNAMDI...or comments about United Medical Center or anything else that Councilmember Catania is involved with, call us at 800-433-8850. Send us a -- you can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Join the conversation at our website, kojoshow.org.

SHERWOODAnd I don't want to get bogged down in the numbers too much. But when you say it's going to -- how much is the profit, $4 million?

CATANIAThe profit will be $4 million and about $103 million in operations. So that's a pretty hefty return.

SHERWOODWhat is the period of time -- is that...

CATANIAOne year.

SHERWOODAs of today, Sept. 30?

CATANIAYes, Oct. 1 of last year to Sept. 30 of this year.

SHERWOODAnd all of the bills have been -- all the bills -- there are not bills outstanding (unintelligible) ?

CATANIAWell, I mean, in any operation, you're going to have accounts payable and accounts receivables. You've got money that's due you and money you owe others.

SHERWOOD(unintelligible) the chief financial office, which I know you have great disagreements with, said one of the issues is whether or not the bills are being paid on time and (unintelligible)...

CATANIARight. Well, one of the issues I had with the chief financial officer is that he -- when he assumed the responsibility for the books, one of his first things he did last March 1 was to fire the director of patient financial services. This is the entity that actually aggressively goes out and collects your accounts receivable. Before he fired that particular entity, the Chappelle group, which is a District company, we were collecting $7.6 million a month.

CATANIAAfter he fired them, we were collecting 6.4. So we collect $1.2 million or less per month over a six-month period because he was responsible for hiring the person. He fired them, didn't replace them, allowed six months to go by. And so, I think, our bottom line would be much stronger had he not done that. He had as much as admitted it yesterday.

SHERWOODOn the bottom line then -- if the hospital is doing as well -- and I accept that you say it is doing well -- so it's doing well. This is -- is this an argument for the city to continue to run the hospital...

CATANIANo.

SHERWOOD...you know, the mayor...

CATANIANo, it's not.

SHERWOOD...and the chairman, and they all want to sell the hospital?

NNAMDIGood. I'm glad you said that. What do you say is the alternative?

SHERWOODIs this an -- or an argument you say the hospital is in a better position now to attract buyers?

CATANIAThat's right. Look, I've said, you know, the mayor uses the term one city all the time. But if we are going to be one city, then it needs to be one city, which means if I get in a car accident on Western Ave., I have the same expectation of health care if I get in a car accident on Southern Ave. If I live on North Capitol or South Capitol, it shouldn't matter. And for years, politicians have talked about this institution.

CATANIAThey pretend to care about the residents of 7 and 8. By the way, last year, 100 -- this last fiscal year, 107,000 patients went through that hospital. There's no entity that touches the residents of that community more than that one hospital. And so, you know, I believe it should have world-class pediatrics and obstetrics, as well as wound care, as well as mental health services, et cetera. That's why we brought these marquee partners.

CATANIAAt the same time, I'm also mindful of my responsibility to the treasury. What I want to do -- and I'll wrap up, Tom -- is I want to make sure we get one, hopefully, two years of good financials where we can show, through audited financials, that we have turned the corner. And how did we do this on the revenue side? We aggressively went after increased reimbursements for Medicaid.

CATANIAWe redistributed the DISH dollars, which are disproportionate share hospital dollars that Medicaid gives cities to pay for the uncompensated care. Before I came along, that hospital received 10 percent of the city's DISH allocations. Our latest audit shows they provide 40 percent of the care. Now, how was that fair? And so by fighting for a level playing field, we've leveled the financial situation. We've improved the scope and quality of services.

CATANIAAnd I believe in one year or two, this hospital will be so attractive, it will be the kind of facility that a MedStar wishes to have in its constellation. But it isn't there yet. And I fear that if we sell it before we have audited financials, it's an invitation to mischief for those who would just come and actually...

SHERWOODBleed it.

CATANIARight.

NNAMDIDavid Catania is an at-large member of the D.C. Council. He's an independent and the chairman of the Committee on Health. If you have questions or comments for him, call us at 800-433-8850 or go to our website, kojoshow.org. Send us a tweet, @kojoshow. On United Medical Center, there seems to remain some controversy about the man that Mayor Vincent Gray put in charge of the city's hospital board, the -- Bishop Charles Matthew Hudson.

NNAMDI"Loose Lips" had reported earlier this summer that Hudson referred to himself as UMC's general manager. More recently, he tried to negotiate a lease and a hiring and freeze hiring on his own. What's your opinion of the leadership of the hospital board? And what are your immediate concerns about its future?

CATANIAIt's -- the board is a new board, and it's a work in progress. And I think they've made a lot of progress in the last year coming together. The management of the hospital is top notch, and so I'm very pleased with where we're going. You know, look, there's going to be bumps along the road. Again, I want to reiterate that I don't believe we should be long-term in the hospital business.

CATANIAI want us to make it as attractive an institution as possible for purposes of selling. You know, there are a lot of other bright spots. In the realm of employment, for instance, since last year, we've added 148 full-time equivalents. We've gone from 679 people to 827, and that's a bright spot in the community that needs employment. We've also introduced the community college.

CATANIAUDC is now on that campus providing allied health training courses. And we had our first graduation in August. And so it is meeting the needs of THE community, both in terms of health care and employment, job opportunities. And, look, I just -- I feel very strongly about my responsibility to make sure that every resident in the city has access to high quality care.

NNAMDISo you don't think that the controversy over the chair of the board -- you think that's a tempest in a teapot? It doesn't really affect the big picture?

CATANIAWell, I do think he has not made it easy on himself. And I attend most of the board meetings, and I think he has not made it necessarily easy on himself. I do believe his heart is in the right place, and he has to appreciate that he is, you know, one of 11, and that this has -- there has to be more cooperation.

SHERWOODAre you talking to Mayor Gray about this hospital and make -- to a lesser extent, I know that you and Gandhi have a long history now of clashing with each other. But in terms...

CATANIAI think that's -- I just think we blow kisses. I mean...

SHERWOODWell, I think it dates back to 1997 or something.

NNAMDIYou don't want me to give you some of the (word?).

SHERWOODBut I think it's important. I mean, is Mayor Gray -- I mean, this is his part of the city. He's from Ward 7. There seems to be some tension between you and the mayor about the hospital, but maybe I'm wrong. Are you guys talking about it? Is he up to speed on it?

CATANIAHe's very concerned and has bought in, I think, improperly into the notion that this one hospital will make or break our bond rating. On its face, that's ridiculous. You have a hospital that is making money, not losing money. It should not impact our bond rating.

CATANIAYou have, across state line, you have the Dimension System in Prince George's County, which is hemorrhaging money from the county and the state but has not affected Prince George's County's bond rating one bit. No one has said boo about it. And that is, actually, a bigger impact on their budget than this would be on ours.

CATANIASo I think, frankly, that this whole notion -- I really think that there are some individuals who want to use the hospital as the excuse for when our bond rating eventually does go down because we've gone on a spending spree and we spent down our bond reserves, and this makes a convenient scapegoat because there's already a narrative that this hospital will lose money.

NNAMDIRacial tension has become part of the narrative with a lot of the business facing the council, including a proposal that has been floated to force wholesalers of gas to, as "Loose Lips" put it, divorce themselves from the gas station business. It's a bill that directly targets Joe Mamo, an Ethiopian immigrant who owns many of the city's gas stations and doubles as a wholesaler.

NNAMDIMany high profile African-American politicians and advocates have come to his defense. And it seems to have become a situation where people are pitting the civil rights ideological tendency up against the antitrust ideological tendency. How do you see it?

CATANIAWell, I think this is about money, frankly. You know, yesterday we had a perfect example. We had a hearing on UMC -- just to return to the subject for a second -- we had the group called The Chappelle Group, which was the director of our patient financial services that had done an outstanding job for the city. It's a local small disadvantaged business. The owner lives in Ward 7. The principal deputy lives in Ward 8.

CATANIAIt is -- you know, what better facility, what better expertise could you have than these individuals who are committed to that institution? And they were replaced by Nat Gandhi and replaced with a gentleman from Chattanooga, Tenn., a Caucasian from Chattanooga who knows not one thing about the facility or the community. And so, will the same allegations be made there that are made here?

CATANIANo, because The Chappelle Group does not have the kind of money to ladle around to buy friends. And that's what has happened. I mean, I think if you looked for contributions from this particular entity, you will see that, you know, there are contributions and support to these very entities that are now coming to his defense. And this is about political power, not about racial discrimination.

NNAMDIHowever, what evidence can you and other supporters -- you're a co-sponsor of the bill -- point to that proves that the link between wholesaling and owning gas station is what is driving up gas prices in the District? I suspect that if we could get the evidence, whether we get it from the attorney general or from the city council, that there's a direct relationship between his ownership of wholesaling enterprises and gas stations and the increase in prices, then it would be understandable. But...

CATANIAWell, it's classic -- it's a classical vertical integration.

NNAMDIBut if people think that you're guessing at what's...

CATANIANo. It's a classic example of a vertically integrated monopoly where you control, from soup to nuts, the product. And that's what happens, and there's simply not enough competition in the city, not enough gas stations. And I apologize. I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, Kojo. But you have one entity controlling the vast majority of retail distributions in the city in controlling the gas that goes to them.

CATANIANaturally, it's going to have an effect on price.

NNAMDIWell, you seem to be saying that, but not providing any evidence of it. You seem to be saying it's logical that that would happen...

CATANIAWe actually have a committee report.

NNAMDI...and that the argument seems to be -- allow me to finish. The argument seems to be, in the absence of any other evidence about what's driving up gas prices, let's just put in on Joe Mamo.

CATANIAWell, you know, frankly, had your producers indicated an interest in discussing this, I would've been happy to prepare.

NNAMDIYou've been boned up on it.

CATANIANo. I would've been happy to bring the memo that we produced on the subject that discusses how vertical integration impacts prices, very specifically lays out, you know, what his concentration is, compares it to other examples of antitrust. And we would've been able -- I would've been able to have a more intelligent conversation.

NNAMDII think that's what the public would like to see. But here's Tom Sherwood.

CATANIAI'd be happy to come back next week with that memo and discuss it.

NNAMDINo, you can't.

SHERWOODI'll be happy. I'll move on with it.

NNAMDIHe'll be happy to come back every week.

SHERWOODWell, broadly -- more broadly, because you're a politician in the city, a white guy who gets around the entire city, you've worked very hard in Ward 7 and 8 with the United Medical Center. But there is a racial current that's in the city now -- and now, just generally address it if you can -- that, you know, as Harry Thomas Jr., Tommy Thomas, as Kwame Brown, the chairman, as Mayor Gray has various issues before the U.S. attorney, there are some allegations.

SHERWOODPeople are saying, well, you know, only the black politicians are being -- people are going only after the black politicians. Marion Barry, this week, says he wants a gentrification commission to study the impact of gentrification on African-Americans. I'm just wondering, do you get any sense that, in all this, there's some racial tension that goes along with criticisms? You mentioned earlier about the decorum of people.

CATANIAWell, I think, some individuals, some members who are in trouble would like to create that impression as a way to deflect attention from their own irresponsible actions. I am not -- I don't see it, and, candidly, you know, I'll go back and, you know, again, once again to United Medical Center.

CATANIAI think if every one of us -- to just use this as an illustration of larger issues -- if every one of us got up every day and did our level best to deliver, right, I don't believe that our population is predisposed to believe that everything is -- there's a racial issue behind everything. You know what the 600,000 residents of the city want? They want good, honest government. They want us to get up and deliver for them.

CATANIAYou know, and they're not interested in these discussions. I know that among the political class, people talk about this being racially motivated, but people are embarrassed and ashamed of this government right now. And so -- and we...

SHERWOODThat's what I generally find. I find that out myself when I go around town.

NNAMDIIndeed, not only go to -- I want to go to...

CATANIAThat's right.

NNAMDII want to go to a specific issue on that because last week you spoke out very strongly during the vote on taxes.

CATANIAThat's right.

NNAMDIYou said the council is losing its moral authority, and you brought up the fact that some of your colleagues who voted to raise taxes have had trouble paying their own.

CATANIAI should have a tooth in my mouth. I should have nerve like some of these. I'm serious. You know, to -- with a straight face, you know, and some of these members have very flush incomes and to, for some reason, not be able to get around to pay their taxes on time or choose not to, it's really inexcusable. And how do we go to the residents and say, do as we say, not as we do? And I was really quite upset with the tax increase because...

NNAMDIWhat do you expect are going to be the consequences of the vote on taxes?

CATANIAWell, you know, I think it's -- it is an illustration of laziness. You know, we have a revenue that grew 8 percent last year to next year. This current year, '11, to the one we're going in, '12, we have revenue growing by 8 percent. In the last two years, spending has increased in the city by 18 percent. There's no other jurisdiction in the country that is as well-off financially as we are.

CATANIAMost states in this country still have not returned to their 2008 revenue levels, and we are double digits past that. And so to have that contentious debate over a $13 million issue, when you're more than $10 billion budget -- when the mayor pocket vetoed the budget on the last day of council period, you know, and basically took two months off instead of rolling up his sleeves and saying, I can find $13 million and a $10-billion government, let me just say that between this year, '11, and next year, '12, spending is going to increase $482 million.

CATANIACouldn't it have increased $470 million, and would anyone have known the difference? And was it necessary to actually incite that kind of acrimony in the council 'cause the mayor knew exactly what would happen. And I think -- another thing I want to point out is the mayor weakened the chairman by that action, and that is regrettable.

CATANIAAs a person who cherishes the council as an institution, when the mayor failed to do the proper lifting, to carve out $13 million of a budget that he vetoed -- he knew where the chairman was on this issue. He knew that the chairman was against the tax increase. He knew that chairman was under certain duress from other issues affecting his own political career.

CATANIAAnd yet he chose to whip the votes to make sure that tax increase would happen, which underminded (sic) the chairman and underminded his ability to govern.

SHERWOODWell, politically speaking, because you can go forward -- there's discussions about you possibly running for the attorney general job, which is on the ballot for the first time in 2014. There's some discussion that you might run or are, in fact, running for mayor now for 2014. Just tell me, politically, where are you?

CATANIAAll right. All you have to do is -- Tom, all you have to do is to note, you know, how contentious I've been with you during this. I mean, would I be -- seriously?

SHERWOODWell, this is the commonsense, hardnosed, let's-just-get-the-work-done approach Catania campaign posture. Well, the mayor just announced today -- people don't know this.

NNAMDIYou notice I'm not saying anything.

SHERWOODThis is actually good news. We should tell people. The mayor just announced this very day that he has found $300-and-some-odd thousand dollars, and the Martin Luther King library will be open on Sundays after all. Do you like that?

CATANIAYeah, but here's my point. I mean, you have a budget that is growing, you know, from this year, '11, to next year, '12, 6.2 percent in terms of, again, $482 million more in '12 than this year. The fact that you can maintain your current level of operations and spend nearly half a billion dollars more -- what? I mean, come on. That's not a cause to celebrate. That's like, are you kidding me?

CATANIAWhy couldn't you keep the current operations going with half a billion more dollars?

SHERWOODWhat is the problem? Why can't you?

CATANIAWell, I think the problem is that, you know, we have...

NNAMDICould the problem be, since you are an independent, that at the nation level the Democratic Party is talking about raising...

CATANIAThat's right.

NNAMDI...taxes on higher income people...

CATANIAThat's it.

NNAMDI...and the Democrats on the D.C. City Council...

CATANIAThat's it exactly.

NNAMDI...and the mayor want to be a part of that?

CATANIAThat's right. Exactly. And I think that, you know, I can point to one of my colleagues, and I suspect that it is exactly the reason why he has so championed this because it's a way -- and, look -- and I don't -- I am not at all opposed. And when we started this process last year, I said, look, if we need additional money to close gaps, even though I have historically been against kind of gratuitous tax increases, I think we all should shoulder the burden, not just 1 percentage of the population.

CATANIABut we should -- we are -- if this is the community we want, then the community, as a whole, should pay for it. Yes, a higher burden on those who can pay more. But that's not what happened here. We raised taxes, and we didn't have to. We engaged in class warfare and demagoguery. And in the end, that's not making this a better place, right?

CATANIAAnd the biggest problem with government is when you simply add money and -- you're not turning your attention to the more efficient operations, and so you're accelerating inefficiency and you're rewarding inefficiency. And you're -- and I also think if I -- if you're one of these taxpayers who's going to be asked to pay more, you know, you have to ask yourself, you know, what? I...

NNAMDII have run out of time before Chris Zimmerman beats us up, but Tom Sherwood will prolong anything if he gets the opportunity.

SHERWOODWell, can I ask one more quick question?

CATANIASure.

SHERWOODLincoln Theatre has been getting subsidies...

NNAMDII was going to discuss that in between, but since you are bringing him into that conversation...

SHERWOODLincoln Theatre, it goes, we're out of money. It says it's going to close, wants a half million dollars at a minimum, $500,000 to stay open. Others are saying this is a well-meaning board, but it doesn't know what it's doing. Where are you?

CATANIAWell, I think, you know, what is in order is if we are going to bail it out -- and I think it's an important, you know, critically important part of the U Street Corridor -- then there has to be, you know, a change of regimes, a new board entirely and an entirely new management because we cannot -- I mean, you can't continue to put good money after bad.

NNAMDIWe have a caller on the line, Diane, who has a question for you. Diane, you're on the air. Go ahead, please. Diane, are you there? Diane, I hear you breathing in the background. Go ahead please, Diane. You're on the air.

DIANEHello. I'm Diane. Regarding the current requirement for the papillomavirus vaccination -- immunization for 11-year-old girls in the D.C. school system, possibly elsewhere, should not the parents be consulted? Thank you.

CATANIAI'd be happy to answer that question. The District is one of two jurisdictions -- Virginia being the other -- that has, as a prerequisite for enrolling in sixth grade, that the parent either vaccinate the child or opt out. We have spent more money than any other jurisdiction in educating the population about this. I'm very proud of that.

CATANIAThere is a -- it's very pronounced in the form that is given to parents that they have the option to opt out for any reason, whatsoever. But, you know, it's also a teachable moment because most parents are busy living their lives. They don't know the latest in cutting-edge technology and cutting-edge science. This gives them the chance. We tell them the pros and cons, and they have the option to opt in or opt out.

CATANIAAnd it's made this vaccination available for low-income girls where it's not available in other parts of the country. I believe that this is an enormously important scientific breakthrough and that we're going to save the lives of women who are not going to die from cervical cancer, vaginal cancer, throat cancer, et cetera.

CATANIAAnd I have no qualms -- and, listen, I understand it's very controversial, and people want to make a boogeyman out of it. I'm not going to back down on this.

NNAMDII'm not sure Diane was aware that parents have the opportunity to opt out if they want to.

CATANIAAbsolutely, for any reason. They simply sign their name.

NNAMDIDiane, thank for your call. David Catania, thank you for joining us.

CATANIAThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIDavid Catania...

SHERWOODDid we behave civilly here? Did we behave?

NNAMDIDavid Catania...

SHERWOODDid you get enough time on the hospital?

NNAMDIDavid Catania is an at-large member of the D.C. Council.

SHERWOODTo show his frowning face.

NNAMDIHe's an independent and the chairman of the Committee on Health. David, once again...

CATANIAKojo, thank you. What people don't know is I really like Tom, and so we --sometimes our personal relationship comes into the studio. So you all -- thank you very much.

SHERWOODTake me on a tour of the hospital soon.

NNAMDIGood thing we have a delay on this broadcast here because they have been trading profanities profusely on this (word?).

SHERWOODYou know, I haven't cursed on the air in a long time.

NNAMDIThat's why we...

SHERWOODBut maybe after this program.

NNAMDII have the delay. Joining us now in studio on The Politics Hour is Chris Zimmerman. He is the chairman of the Arlington County Board. And he is a Democrat. Chris Zimmerman, good to see you again.

MR. CHRIS ZIMMERMANGood to see you, Kojo.

SHERWOODDoes your board curse and scream at each other in private?

ZIMMERMANNot that we would ever admit to, no.

SHERWOODThere you go. I like that answer.

NNAMDINot that we would admit to.

SHERWOODStarted clear, open and transparent answer.

NNAMDIYou are a veteran of the Metro board. You hang your hat on a lot of transportation issues. Earlier this week, it was reported that the McDonnell administration has been withholding funds from localities in order to pressure them into giving the commonwealth the seats it wants on local transportation boards. What do you make of that power play?

ZIMMERMANWell, just to make clear, I'm a recovering WMATA board member.

NNAMDIThis is true.

ZIMMERMANSo, you know, I am no longer burdened with that. Someone else has got that responsibility. I do, as you say, serve on a number of other transportation bodies. You know, I have to say I'm a little perplexed because, of course, the fight that the governors made to, you know, take local control away from the localities up here on Metro really was affected through another piece of legislation, and so, you know, in a sense, that's done.

ZIMMERMANSo this isn't about Metro obviously.

NNAMDIMm hmm.

ZIMMERMANSo what is it about? Well, in Northern Virginia, the other major transportation bodies, the Northern Virginia Transportation Commission, which is actually the mechanism through which...

NNAMDICorrect.

ZIMMERMAN...Northern Virginia participates in Metro, and it already has a gubernatorial representative, has that all along. The state's director of rail and public transportation, that's the person in the administration who does this stuff, is a member of that body. So it isn't clear to me what this is really all about. I mean, for the most part, the governor is represented on these bodies.

ZIMMERMANI don't know what body he's not on that he would want to be on, unless it's the local governments. You know, Arlington is a transit board itself since it runs a transit agency, a bus service, ART, Arlington Transit. Fairfax has the connector service. Is he asking that the governor be able to put a member on to those local governing boards? I really -- I don't really understand what this is about, to be honest.

NNAMDISo there is already statewide representation on the boards you mentioned here?

ZIMMERMANAll around the state, as far as I know.

SHERWOODThat's a mystery. I mean, I was hoping you would explain it to us.

NNAMDISame here.

SHERWOODYou just told us you don't know.

NNAMDIAnd you don't think it's also...

ZIMMERMANI don't get it.

NNAMDIAnd you don't think there's a power play here to get a second seat on the Metro board? The governor's office said that it's not doing that.

ZIMMERMANYou know, that certainly is absolutely possible, and I think that's part of the reason people are suspicious. There is also questions about the legality of some of it. Frankly, the action on the Metro board seat itself is subject to much question about whether it's consistent with the compact, which, you know, it's a federally authorized compact. And, you know, all this mucking about in the system is something that people here are very concerned about.

SHERWOODDoesn't it mean that it would make sense for the governor of Maryland and Virginia? I mean, the Board of Trade, the Greater Washington Board of Trade is -- or I'd say a redo of the entire Metro operation system. And it does make sense to me that the governor of the two states would have representation on the Metro system. So what am I missing?

ZIMMERMANYou got to remember a couple of differences. In Maryland, the state, years ago, took over funding for Metro. So the bills from Montgomery County and Prince George's County are paid directly by the State of Maryland in their annual budget.

SHERWOODOkay.

ZIMMERMANThat's why the governor of Maryland appoints the members. On the Virginia side, the responsibility for public transportation has remained locally. Every year, when the Metro budget has to be met, the question is, will the jurisdictions pay? On the Maryland side, the question goes to Annapolis. On the Virginia side, the question goes to Fairfax, to Arlington and to Alexandria.

ZIMMERMANAnd it's the homeowners in those jurisdictions whose annual taxes for real estate determine whether they're going to make up whatever is necessary to make the budget for the year for Metro. And so, you know, the question is, where should accountability lie?

ZIMMERMANShould it lie with the people who are most directly responsible to the folks whose tax dollars every year determine whether we make the budget or not, as well as being the people who ride the system, as well as being the people in whose jurisdictions the facilities are? O should it be in Richmond with politicians who aren't even from Northern Virginia necessarily, and who don't have a longstanding stake?

SHERWOODThat makes sense. All right.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is the number to call if you'd like to participate in this conversation with Chris Zimmerman. He's the chairman of the Arlington County Board. He's a Democrat. And Tom Sherwood, our resident analyst, he's an NBC 4 reporter and a columnist for The Current Newspapers. 800-433-8850 or send email to kojo@wamu.org.

NNAMDIIf we don't understand why the McDonnell administration has been withholding funds from the localities, do we understand what kinds of services will be affected without these funds?

ZIMMERMANWell, in particular, local bus service, you know, clearly is at stake. The local bus systems all depend, to some -- in a certain degree, on those state funds. And let me point out that when we say state funds, we mean funds that come largely through formula, based on agreements that Northern Virginia legislators made years ago with their counterparts around the state to get some money back, because, of course, Northern Virginia generates most of that money.

ZIMMERMANWe're mostly talking about money that gets paid by people at the pump when they buy gas and, you know, disproportionately from Northern Virginia. And, you know, some of it comes back. And because we're so dependent on public transportation, Northern Virginia was able to negotiate something, you know, that is, on the public transportation side, you know, somewhat favorable to local transportation systems.

ZIMMERMANIt's, overall, not necessarily what we consider a great deal, but that's what we got. And so now you have, again, you know, state politicians coming in, essentially messing around with money that are paid by Northern Virginia that is supposed to come back to Northern Virginia.

ZIMMERMANAnd if it continues like this, of course, then people who suffer will be people -- not only who ride buses, but people who drive cars because when people can't ride buses, more of them wind up in cars. And that means if you have to drive your car, you have more traffic to compete with.

SHERWOODI want to stay in the transportation world because Arlington loves this subject, transportation. We had that horrific sudden storm last January. Roads were clogged. People couldn't get anywhere -- hours. The Council of Governments, COG, said it would study the problem. It would announce in September that -- what it thought about -- what the region could do.

SHERWOODI checked with COG, the Council of Governments, this morning. Well, that report is not ready, and it might be ready until November. But it does seem that Arlington has a problem that it's on the other side of the river, and if the city can't get cars over the bridges -- Til Hazel, this week -- I think it was this week -- the developer from Northern Virginia, said there ought to be more bridges across the Potomac River into Maryland and into the District, that bridges were planned, and they were blocked.

SHERWOODWhat is your own view of the transportation issue to get traffic flowing freely between Arlington, Northern Virginia and the District in between American Legion Bridge? He said the bridge -- American Legion is going to have 50,000 more vehicles in the next 10 years or so, and there's just no room for it. He said, we need more bridges. Your own view?

ZIMMERMANOkay. Well, keep in mind that much of the traffic -- most of the traffic that flows from Northern Virginia over to Maryland, the District of Columbia funnels through Arlington. About a million vehicles a day cross our borders on their way. Of the seven bridges across the river, five of them are in Arlington. Now, there have been proposals, of course, many times over the years.

ZIMMERMANYou know, more than 10 years ago or so, they were talking about -- frankly, the one that Mr. Hazel is advocating now, he was advocating then to the west that, you know, would cross into Montgomery County. The Virginia Department of Transportation did a study.

ZIMMERMANAnd, interestingly enough and clearly not what they were expecting, the study showed that it wouldn't actually provide much relief to the American Legion Bridge, that, because of travel patterns, it really wouldn't help very much. What it would do is open up a bunch of land for development. It would become more valuable on either side of that bridge.

SHERWOODYou don't think that's Til Hazel's goal?

ZIMMERMANI would never suggest anything, but I assume the people who have land on either side of that would benefit. The question is, how do we move more people more efficiently? And the answer is, we move more people more efficiently by, A, moving them in fewer vehicles using the existing infrastructure we have or a new infrastructure very efficiently, or -- and at the same time, also by making sure we have people locating -- businesses locating closer to where those transportation assets are.

ZIMMERMANWe need more compact development, wherever it is, so that it is more in reach of the key transportation conduits. We move people very efficiently on a few facilities. We have just two ways to get Metro over the river right now, the tunnel at Rosslyn -- the bridge that carries the yellow line -- that moves a lot of people.

ZIMMERMANWe have the facility that people think of as the Shirley Highway HOV lanes, which, of course, was built as a busway and then became an HOV facility. It moves way more people, you know, per lane, per hour than any other facility around because so many of the people are moving in buses, in coaches, in shuttles, vans and that kind of thing. And those are the ways that we can move people more efficiently.

ZIMMERMANWe just don't have billions of dollars to put into new, you know, large new bridges and new highways. Even if it was a good idea, we don't have it. So we have to find ways to use the assets we have more efficiently.

SHERWOODThe city is -- had just this week announced the beginning of planning for the new South Capitol Street Bridge, or replace the South Capitol Street Bridge. It's nearing completion of the interchange at 11th Street, which, looks to me like something that ought to belong in Northern Virginia. It's got so many on and off ramps. But it will allow a significant traffic flow on that side.

SHERWOODIt just seems to me you're saying mass transit of some type is more important than new bridges.

ZIMMERMANWell, bridges serve both purpose, for public transportation as well as for private transportation, and I'm not familiar with the specifics on the one you talked about. But I will say that I can see where it might make perfect sense. Investing in assets where we already have jobs and people, like in the District of Columbia, probably make sense. And places farther out, there should be investment, but where it is.

ZIMMERMANWhat it means is, where you've got a job center, you should work on making that work better. The pattern we had for 50 or 60 years, here and all over the country, of continually going out for the next new empty piece of land and throwing something up and thereby impoverishing the one we left behind and having people drive farther and farther and spreading them out farther and farther doesn't work.

ZIMMERMANAnd it's already collapsing. And it's not coming back because all the factors that drove this tremendous sort of centrifugal force in the region for half a century have been reversing. And we're seeing just the opposite. We have overbuilt places farther out, and that's part of the reason people on that land, you know, in many ways, are suffering. They have housing they can't sell.

ZIMMERMANThey have office parks they can't rent. But the demand, on the other hand, for places that are near transportation is driving prices up tremendously. The market is telling us something. People want walkable places. They want places with good access to public transportation. Even those who drive want places where they don't drive as far, where they don't have to drive as much. So we really should be responding to the market in creating what it's telling us people want.

NNAMDIHere is Stewart in Washington, D.C. Stewart, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MR. STEWART SCHWARTZHi, Kojo. This is Stewart Schwartz. I'm with the Coalition for Smarter Growth.

NNAMDIHey. Hi, Stewart.

SCHWARTZI honestly couldn't have said it any better than Chris just said it. He hit every point that really respond effectively (unintelligible)...

NNAMDIOkay. Goodbye, Stewart.

SCHWARTZBut I will add just -- first of all, echo the bridge study that DDOT did. There was a very small percentage of vehicles that would make the so-called big U-shaped commute. Everybody else's commute pattern would still depend on the American Legion Bridge. So we need to target a fix there.

SCHWARTZThe other thing I would add is we're very concerned that Mr. Hazel, working very closely with Secretary Connaughton, are really pushing for an outer beltway in addition to the two Potomac bridges, an outer beltway out there by Manassas, at a time when they're not investing in Dulles Rail. So they're setting the wrong priorities.

SCHWARTZAs Chris said, they're not fixing congestion where it exists, and they're proposing a sort of a 1950s pattern of development.

NNAMDIOkay. Stewart, thank you very much for your call.

SCHWARTZThank you.

NNAMDIChris Zimmerman, one of the longest running drawn-out sagas in D.C. politics involves streetcars. The streetcar program even became a symbol for racial tension in last year's mayoral campaign. But these days, everything in the city becomes a symbol for racial tension. But people have been paying far less attention to the streetcar program you're trying to get off the ground in Arlington along with Fairfax, which was written about in today's Washington Post.

NNAMDIWhere do streetcars fit into your vision for Arlington and Columbia Pike?

ZIMMERMANTo really work as a transit-oriented community, a place where people have real choices, it doesn't mean they're not going to drive or not going to have cars but to have real choices, so they're not entirely dependent on their cars. So they can, in fact, live without having to drive everywhere, you need a range of options, and you need an interconnected network with different layers.

ZIMMERMANSo you need, you know, long-haul transportation like commuter rail or like Metrorail, which carries high volumes of people over fairly good distances, and local bus services that carries people short distances. And you need stuff in between as well. Streetcars are kind of light rail that basically fits in between local bus service and heavier rail, like Metro and commuter rail.

ZIMMERMANIn the cities that work that have, you know, very compact development and have fairly high densities around the world, they function because they have these multiple layers of transit available, and interconnected so you can transfer from one to another. We have a lot of places the Metro system just doesn't go. But there's development, and people need to get around.

ZIMMERMANAnd it's too expensive for us to, you know, built subway everywhere. And we don't necessarily even want the volumes in all those places. Streetcar is a way of connecting those, to helping traffic circulate. Many places people can get to on, you know, let's say, VRE or MARC or Metro, but then they get there and, you know, what happens during the day and they're in a place where, you know, if they need to go out to lunch, if they need to go out to buy something, they say, well, I need my car.

ZIMMERMANBy having these kind of connections, we extend the reach of the heavier rail systems, and we give people more alternatives so that, you know, they can get around at any time during the day.

SHERWOODIf you had your way, where would the streetcars first be?

ZIMMERMANWell, we're working right now on a line that is -- we're working with Fairfax on one side on the Columbia Pike corridor. For us, it's Columbia Pike. It goes over to Skyline, which is a concentration of jobs and density that was built there because Metro was anticipated, and then it got rerouted and didn't go there, through our Columbia Pike corridor, which is one of the densest places in the region that doesn't have Metro, over to Pentagon City and Crystal City on down through Crystal City to Potomac Yard.

ZIMMERMANThat line will connect jobs at one end with jobs at the other end and a whole lot of residents in between and a lot of places people, you know, can get off and shop. That's the beginning of a network that can ultimately extend throughout Northern Virginia.

NNAMDIWhat timeframe are you looking at?

ZIMMERMANWe're hoping, you know, within about five or six years to have them operating. I think the District should be going before then. And I think that as soon as people see one of these lines operating anywhere and understand a little better what it is, that it's going to change the whole conversation that, really, what you got to do is see what this is because it's different than, you know, I think, what a lot of people imagine. It's not 19th century trolley.

ZIMMERMANIt's 21st century light rail, and it's a very comfortable ride. It's very convenient. And it fills a really important niche in a community that is going to have to be growing in its urban centers.

NNAMDI800-433-8850. Tom?

SHERWOODI was thinking Michelle Obama could have ridden a train when she went to the Target in Potomac Yard yesterday.

NNAMDIYes, indeed. It would have been...

ZIMMERMANIf it were running there, and some day that will be possible.

NNAMDIIt's my understanding that you and Fairfax have set up your own funding streams for this. What concerns do you have about keeping those funding streams intact in these tight budget times?

ZIMMERMANWell, I mean, obviously, with the Congress not having reauthorized transportation legislation, and -- you know, let's face it. Transportation in this country depends on two big funding sources: the federal government through the federal gas tax and state governments through state gas taxes. That's the way we've funded transportation for, you know, more than half a century in this country.

ZIMMERMANAt the federal level, they haven't raised the gas tax, and it's a fixed unit tax. It's not like a percentage sales tax. It's per gallon. They haven't raised it since 1993. And then the state level in Virginia hasn't raised it since 1986. Now, how many things do you buy that are the same price they were a quarter of a century ago? But, basically, we have a fund that's effectively been fixed as we've added a million people and had 25 years of inflation.

ZIMMERMANSo that's clearly a problem for all aspects of transportation, whether, you know, roads and bridges, you know, buses and trains -- we got to do something about it, both at the state level and nationally.

NNAMDIWait a minute. I'm still trying to figure out what I bought 25 years ago that I can still pay the same price for. Okay.

SHERWOODIt's roughly $1 back in, what, '75 or '80. It's now -- it's, like, $4 now.

ZIMMERMANYes.

SHERWOODIt's quite a significant inflation.

ZIMMERMANAnd if you look at it in terms of when the interstate highway system started in the Eisenhower administration, I think that the federal tax alone was about a quarter of the price of a gallon a gas. If you look at it now, it's something like 5 percent. So, clearly, we're putting a whole lot less in, you know, to our transportation system when we fill up a tank than we were back then.

SHERWOODAnd cars are getting more efficient so that you use fewer gallons...

ZIMMERMANExactly.

SHERWOOD...and you collect less money.

ZIMMERMANExactly.

NNAMDIHere is Wick (sp?) in Manassas, Va. Wick, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

WICKYeah. Hi. The HOT lanes project on 495 seems like a great idea not just to alleviate traffic off the main part of 495, but also if there's an accident on the main part, you have an avenue to go to. You could jump into the HOT lanes to get around it. Arlington County voted that project down, the one on 95 they're going to do, and it seems to me like it was a good idea. I was wondering why they felt it necessary to vote that down through their jurisdiction.

ZIMMERMANWell, let me correct two things here. First, the 495 project, which is the Beltway project, we didn't have any position on. We didn't oppose it. The project on I-95 and 395, we also didn't oppose, and we didn't vote down. What we opposed along with, frankly, other local governments -- Alexandria and Fairfax and the Northern Virginia Transportation Commission -- was proceeding with it in a way that ignored the potential impact on the services now running in what is an existing facility.

ZIMMERMANLet me make a distinction here. 495, the project adds new lanes. It builds a new highway that you'll be able to pay a toll to get on. Some people think that's a good idea. Some people think it's a bad idea. But it's new capacity. On I-95, 395, a facility that taxpayers built with their money, is going to be handed over to an Australian company, which will effectively own it for the next 100 years or whatever and charge people to use it.

ZIMMERMANThis is a facility we're using now. It's the one I mentioned earlier, originally built for buses, that carries way more people per hour than any other lanes of highway. Now, part of the reason that we are concerned is that, as the history went on with that facility, it went from buses to HOV-4.

ZIMMERMANThen it went to the HOV-3. And about a dozen years ago or so, the question was, why don't we lower the HOV to two? And again VDOT did a study. They did all this analysis, and they basically said, can't do it because if you do, it's going to shut down Northern Virginia, essentially, and you don't have the capacity. And they looked at all the ways you could get it -- you could just squeeze another lane in. They had all kinds of reasons.

ZIMMERMANThat wasn't a good idea. So now we have a proposal -- people seem to have forgotten about that analysis -- that's going to put single-occupant vehicles on there. And the question is, how can you do that without impacting the high-capacity service on which mobility in the region depends? Maybe it's possible. But what Arlington said was, you got to do the analysis, and if it shows problems, you got to tell us how you'd mitigate it.

ZIMMERMANBecause, unlike any other transportation project, this isn't one you can go back to the state and say, wait a minute, we got it wrong. We got to dial it back. You're handing it over, contractually, to a private party that's going to own it, that's going to have the right to run it for generations, and they're only responsible to their stockholders.

SHERWOODAnd will they be able to charge what they want to charge?

ZIMMERMANExactly. Whatever the market will bear. And that -- you know, that may be good or bad, but we don't know how that's going to affect all the people who take OmniRide from down in, you know, Prince William County, all the people who are on our informal ride-sharing program that people call slugging.

ZIMMERMANThere are a whole lot of people in the region who'll be impacted, and, therefore, the rest of the road system all throughout the region could be affected if we get it wrong. And what Arlington said was, we need to make sure we get this right because what you're doing is irreversible. Let's make sure we don't mess it up.

NNAMDITom, you should know that in Businessweek's list of America's 50 best cities, Arlington was named the second...

SHERWOODIt's not even a city.

NNAMDIArlington was named the second best city in America...

SHERWOODIt's a county.

NNAMDI...edged out only by Washington, D.C. No, edged out only by Raleigh, N.C.

SHERWOODRaleigh, N.C.

ZIMMERMANYeah, we're really smarting from that. We really don't understand how we could have come in second, but...

SHERWOODWell, Raleigh is a beautiful place.

ZIMMERMANYou know, it's not bad, but...

SHERWOODYou know, the Research Triangle down there is really terrific. It doesn't have all the traffic problems of Arlington either.

ZIMMERMANActually, Arlington does just fine on traffic. You know, come on over. I'll take you on the ART bus, and we'll go all over the county.

SHERWOODI don't know about that.

NNAMDIHow about Southeast Washington, D.C.?

ZIMMERMANBicycling? All over the place.

SHERWOODYou guys are having bike share now. Don't you have bike share?

ZIMMERMANYeah, well, we work with the District of Columbia. We got a bike share program that has over 17,000 members after just one year.

NNAMDIChris Zimmerman, head of the tourist board and chairman of the Arlington County Board.

SHERWOODWe didn't say -- in this whole program, we didn't say BRAC.

ZIMMERMANThank you.

NNAMDIChris Zimmerman, thank you so much for joining us.

ZIMMERMANThanks, Kojo.

NNAMDITom Sherwood is our resident analyst. He's an NBC4 reporter and a columnist for The Current Newspapers. Always a pleasure. Thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.