Local students have been back in school for weeks. But their teachers have been training and lesson-planning for the new school year for months. We talk with local teachers about their goals for the school year ahead. We also explore how education policy debates– about the uses (and abuses) of testing and the future of No Child Left Behind — end up affecting classroom dynamics.

Guests

  • Angela Benjamin Lead Teacher, Science, Math and Technology (SciMaTech) Academy, Woodrow Wilson High School (Washington, DC)
  • Dan Brown English Teacher, the SEED School of Washington, D.C.; Author, "The Great Expectations School: A Rookie Year in the New Blackboard Jungle" (Arcade)
  • Matthew Tosiello 3rd Grade Teacher and ESOL Specialist, Randolph Elementary School (Arlington, VA)

Transcript

  • 14:06:44

    MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5, at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Few public figures are more celebrated than the school teacher. In one corner of our public imagination, we think of educators as kind of miracle workers, the adults we trust to mold young minds and inspire kids to learn. Then again, few public figures are more vilified than teachers.

  • 14:07:21

    MR. KOJO NNAMDIIn another corner of our imagination, our schools are prowled by incompetent instructors more concerned with their jobs than the faiths of their students. Of course, both views are mostly caricatures of who teachers are and what they do. Today's teachers are tasked with a mindboggling array of short-term and long-term challenges.

  • 14:07:41

    MR. KOJO NNAMDIThey're also facing a whole host of new carrots and sticks: better pay, more standardized testing and less job security. This hour, we're getting a classroom perspective on the new school year and the evolving expectations placed on teachers. Joining us in studio is Angela Benjamin. She's a physics teacher at Woodrow Wilson High School in Washington and lead teacher at Wilson's Science, Math and Technology Academy.

  • 14:08:09

    MR. KOJO NNAMDIShe won a 2010 Excellence in Teaching Award from D.C. Public Schools, and she has been rated highly effective for two straight years on the system's IMPACT evaluation system. Angela Benjamin, thank you for joining us.

  • 14:08:24

    MS. ANGELA BENJAMINThank you very much, Kojo.

  • 14:08:26

    NNAMDIAlso with us is Dan Brown. He is an English teacher at the SEED School of Washington, D.C., which is a public charter school. He's also the author of "Great Expectations School: A Rookie Year in the New Blackboard Jungle." He's a contributor at The Huffington Post. Dan Brown, thank you for joining us.

  • 14:08:43

    MR. DAN BROWNThank you, Kojo.

  • 14:08:45

    NNAMDIAnd also with us in studio is Matthew Tosiello. He is a third grade SOL teacher at Randolph Elementary School in Arlington, Va. He is the Arlington Public Schools' 2011 Teacher of the Year and a winner of the Agnes Meyer Outstanding Teacher Award for 2011. Matthew Tosiello, thank you for joining us.

  • 14:09:04

    MR. MATTHEW TOSIELLOThanks so much for having me.

  • 14:09:05

    NNAMDIOf course, you, too, can join the conversation, 800-433-8850. Are you a teacher? Have you been a teacher? What aspects of the challenge of teaching do you think are most misunderstood? 800-433-8850. Send us a tweet, @kojoshow, or email to kojo@wamu.org, or simply go to our website, kojoshow.org, and join the conversation there.

  • 14:09:28

    NNAMDIThe school year began a couple of weeks ago for students and parents. But, for teachers, the legwork started months ago, not too long after the school year ended. Give us a sense of what kind of preparation you make for a new year and how your year is going so far. Dan Brown, I'll start with you.

  • 14:09:48

    BROWNOkay. I had one week off after the school year ended, and then I taught summer school this year, which was an adventure from -- I taught English from 9 to 12 and then history from 1 to 4 each day. So that was my July. Had a week off, and then it was back at it, I think, August 8, creating curriculum maps, meeting with my grade-level teams. I teach 11 and 12th grade English, so I'm meeting with the other 11 to 12th grade teachers.

  • 14:10:15

    BROWNI'm meeting with the other English teachers. We're aligning the curriculum, introducing new texts, figuring out what we can do better this year, checking in about all of our students. So it really hasn't stopped.

  • 14:10:29

    NNAMDIPoof. And he explodes the myth of teachers having the summer off. Angela Benjamin, what has your preparation been like?

  • 14:10:36

    BENJAMINWell, as my colleague said, we don't have that long for summer vacation. We had eight weeks. I spent two of those weeks at a professional training, for project Lead the Way, at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, where I went to class from 8 to 5, with homework, for two solid weeks. And I also spent a lot of time researching modeling physics because I wanted to implement that in my curriculum.

  • 14:11:00

    BENJAMINSo I went online. I talked to people, and I kind of stole from them. But I'm using that methodology in my class. So I spent a lot of time perfecting that.

  • 14:11:11

    NNAMDITwo weeks, 8 to 5, with homework?

  • 14:11:13

    BENJAMINYes.

  • 14:11:14

    NNAMDIWhat was that, intending to make you feel a little more like your students?

  • 14:11:17

    BENJAMINWell, I teach engineering classes, and that was computer integrated manufacturing, where I learned about machines and producing products from a CAD program and programming the computer to produce an object that is milled.

  • 14:11:34

    NNAMDIMatthew Tosiello, what was your preparation like this summer?

  • 14:11:37

    TOSIELLOWell, you know, at our school, traditionally, the school year is not even over, just like my colleagues, and we're already planning for the next year. We have summer planning over the summer break, and teachers actually come in from all the different grade levels. But, personally, I actually missed the last week of school this year 'cause I was out with an organization that I work with, the Sally Ride Academy presented by ExxonMobil.

  • 14:12:01

    TOSIELLOAnd so I actually missed the last week of school. So I spent a lot of time, once I got back from being on the West Coast for eight days, you know, transitioning my classroom and looking at all the different things that I'd be doing this year. So it is a short window of time.

  • 14:12:18

    NNAMDIOver the last decade, there has been a rapid expansion in standardized testing. How do tests end up affecting the way you do your job? I'll start with you this time, Matthew.

  • 14:12:29

    TOSIELLOWell, you know, the test is -- in Virginia it's the Virginia Standards of Learning tests, the SOL. You know, it's one indicator of, you know, what is happening in a given school. But, as my principal likes to say, you know, like, the test doesn't define us. However, it is a reality that we have to deal with. And, you know, basically -- and this is my fifth year of teaching.

  • 14:12:53

    TOSIELLOIt seems -- and I can literally count that there are more and more assessments with each passing year. And since I teach English language with learners, they have an additional burden of testing that's imposed on them compared to students who are native speakers. So it has a huge effect on everybody, but specifically different parts of the student population.

  • 14:13:20

    NNAMDIAngela Benjamin, at what time do you start thinking about the test?

  • 14:13:25

    BENJAMINWell, with the DC-CAS exam, it's limited to the 10th grade, so we contribute -- as a physics teacher, I contribute kind of in a circular way, right, by working with vocabulary and working with mathematics inside my classroom. The thing with the testing is that in D.C. -- or I'm not sure about the other areas. But in D.C., the students have no consequences for the tests.

  • 14:13:56

    BENJAMINThey have no incentive, other than a personal incentive to do well on the exam. All of the consequences are on the school, the administrators and the teachers.

  • 14:14:07

    NNAMDIThe DC-CAS -- I guess we need to explain a little bit more -- is given to all public and public charter school students in the District of Columbia. In what grades, Dan Brown?

  • 14:14:20

    BROWNWell, the SEED School goes sixth through 12th grade, and students in the sixth, seventh, eighth and 10th grade take the DC-CAS, and it's a whole weeklong adventure.

  • 14:14:28

    NNAMDII got to get back to that for a second because we were talking about when you start thinking about the tests because, Angela Benjamin, when you made the point that DC-CAS may be a huge test in terms of the faith of the schools and the teachers, but you say the kids don't really have a whole lot of incentive to take it very seriously.

  • 14:14:45

    BENJAMINWell, they're encouraged to take it seriously, but it does -- it's not -- never inflected -- it's never reflected in their grades or their requirements for graduation. So if they choose to apply themselves 100 percent to the exam, it's from personal initiative. Right?

  • 14:15:04

    NNAMDISo it is probably more important to the teachers than it is to the students.

  • 14:15:07

    BENJAMINAbsolutely. It's more important to the teachers and the administrators because we're being judged on the results of a test that the kids are not being judged on.

  • 14:15:15

    NNAMDISame thing in your case, Dan Brown?

  • 14:15:18

    BROWNWell, yeah, that's how the DC-CAS works. But I -- so the impulse, when we look at the data sometimes -- and we're frustrated by some of it -- is to -- want to advocate for attaching more stakes to the students, that they'll have more of an incentive to try. But I think that's kind of a dangerous road. Before I taught in D.C., I taught in New York City, and that's where I got my start in the Bronx at PS85.

  • 14:15:43

    NNAMDIThat's why the book "The Great Expectations School: A Rookie Year in the New Blackboard Jungle" comes from. Go ahead.

  • 14:15:48

    BROWNIndeed. Thank you. And I taught fourth graders, which was a testing grade, and, there, the students did have stakes. And Mayor Bloomberg and then-Chancellor Joel Klein earned a lot of plaudits in the media for ending social promotion, which meant, if you don't pass these tests, you're not moving forward another grade level.

  • 14:16:07

    BROWNAnd the amount of mind-bending stress on the students and the parents and the teachers for these high-stakes, largely multiple-choice exams utterly distorted the curriculum and was just a negative.

  • 14:16:23

    BROWNAnd when you think about education as this long-term campaign and at the end of grade 12, the students are now supposed to be going off on their own into this 21st century global economy, you have to wonder what the long-term effects are of having that sort of atmosphere in schools where it's so tense. And now, you see all these cheating scandals coming to light in different places.

  • 14:16:44

    NNAMDIIndeed, we'll talk about -- indeed, I guess, the question is, what should happen with No Child Left Behind? When No Child Left Behind was signed in 2001, it kick-started a public debate about education reform. It created a benchmark or benchmarks for determining whether schools were improving. The SEED School, for instance, is currently on track according to the adequate yearly progress benchmark.

  • 14:17:03

    NNAMDIBut both Wilson High School and Randolph Elementary have failed to hit the targets laid out. Tell us about your schools. First you, Dan Brown, 'cause you're on target.

  • 14:17:15

    BROWNWell, it was a big point of pride for the SEED School to score significantly higher on the DC-CAS this year than in previous years. So making AYP was great. However, AYP is a sort of strange indicator when -- and a problematic one for a lot of reasons.

  • 14:17:32

    BROWNWhen the No Child Left Behind was passed in 2002, this idea was that in 12 years -- so by 2014 -- all schools, all subgroups, English language learners, students with IEPs, special education students, everybody would be 100 percent proficiency. And to argue against that would be the soft bigotry of low expectations in then-President Bush's words.

  • 14:17:55

    BROWNSo there's this insanely unachievable pie-in-the-sky objective that everyone is moving towards by 2014 when, really, no schools will meet AYP. So it's good for the SEED School that we're doing well on this test and, more importantly, is if you visit the SEED School, you see really good things going on in the classrooms and motivated students and kids going off to college and succeeding. And I know that's happening with graduates of Wilson.

  • 14:18:20

    BROWNAnd at Matthew's school, there's great stuff going on. So it's sort of like, I think, it's a Groucho Marx line, who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?

  • 14:18:30

    NNAMDIAngela Benjamin, your own take on the adequate yearly progress benchmark on the CAS test?

  • 14:18:36

    BENJAMINWell, at Wilson, we have been working towards AYP for a few years and always missing it by a small amount. In the past, we've missed by one student or two students in a particular category because they break the kids down into categories. And we've missed by categories in the past. But this past year, we missed on mathematics.

  • 14:18:55

    BENJAMINAnd so it gives us a chance to look at our students and our teaching and see if there's a way to address what just appeared in the numbers this past year. But we work hard towards this goal. But if you don't make AYP, then they, like, flip the cart of the school. They'll try to give you new principals, and all the teachers will have to reapply for their jobs. So it can be very intense as we get towards our fifth year.

  • 14:19:27

    NNAMDIMatthew, your experience at Randolph with AYP. I know you have not met AYP at Randolph in a few years now.

  • 14:19:33

    TOSIELLOWell, it really is a conundrum, as Dan said, because, you know, you have this idea that everybody needs to reach 100 percent, which almost, I think, is statistically impossible 'cause there's always going to be something that happens. But, I think, what's frustrating in what you just alluded to at Wilson is that, you know, you can get -- we've gotten very, very close, and in some cases, we've not.

  • 14:19:57

    TOSIELLOYou know, like, if you look at it, it's probably not even a full student that you might miss your target -- your measurable objective. And even though, for example, in mathematics, we've been making steady progress every year, the goal -- you know, the goal lines are moved. And it's -- it really is a moving target.

  • 14:20:17

    TOSIELLOAnd it's, you know, quite difficult when you -- I think, when you look at, you know, all the -- we have pretty much every subgroup that exists. And you have to make it in all areas. And if you don't make it in one, you know, it can sink everybody. So, you know, it is definitely something that kind of hangs over you. And, you know, it really counteracts what is actually happening in the schools.

  • 14:20:42

    TOSIELLODan said, you know, we're fully accredited by the state of Virginia. You know, people love the school. If you come into the school and see the teachers and you see the kids and you see the involvement of the community, and then you, you know, look at the numbers, you'll say, well, wait a minute, this doesn't really add up. And that's the big problem.

  • 14:21:00

    NNAMDIGot to take a short break. When we come back, we'll learn a little bit more about Randolph School and about the SEED program, and -- 'cause a lot of people may not be familiar with that. If you have already called, stay on the line. We will get to your call. If you'd like to call, the number is 800-433-8850. You can also send us a tweet, @kojoshow, or go to our website, kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there.

  • 14:21:20

    NNAMDIWhat aspects of the challenge of teaching do you think are the most misunderstood? 800-433-8850. What role should testing and data play? Is it possible to design a test that accurately reflects what teachers do? 800-433-8850. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

  • 14:23:40

    NNAMDIWelcome back. We're getting teacher's perspectives on the school year ahead and what they have to deal with. We're talking with Matthew Tosiello. He's a third grade ESL teacher at Randolph Elementary School in Arlington, Va. He's the Arlington Public Schools 2011 Teacher of the Year and the winner of The Agnes Meyer Outstanding Teacher Award for 2011. Dan Brown is an English teacher at the SEED School of Washington, D.C.

  • 14:24:01

    NNAMDIThat's a public charter school. He's also author of the book, "The Great Expectations School: A Rookie Year in the New Blackboard Jungle." He's a contributor at The Huffington Post. And Angela Benjamin is a physics teacher at Woodrow Wilson High School in Washington, D.C. She won a 2010 Excellence in Teaching Award from D.C. Public Schools and has been rated highly effective for two straight years on the systems IMPACT evaluation.

  • 14:24:25

    NNAMDIShe's also a lead teacher at Wilson's Science, Math and Technology Academy. Angela Benjamin, you're the only one who was teaching in a classroom before the advent of No Child Left Behind. How have things changed in your life?

  • 14:24:41

    BENJAMINWell, that's an interesting question. When I first came to D.C., I felt like I had the freedom to do whatever I wanted in my classroom. You would be observed, and word of mouth would get out about you. And you would be evaluated as effective, whatever terms they used back then when we had the (word?). So that was pretty calm.

  • 14:25:01

    BENJAMINBut with the -- the advent of the IMPACT system has changed us, but the No Child Left Behind -- you know, each year, the stats come out, and you try to meet those goals, okay? But, like I said in the past, we kept missing it just by a little bit. And then we got taken over and rearranged with new principal, and everybody had to apply for their job again. But, really, you only had to apply if you were not doing your job.

  • 14:25:33

    NNAMDIDan Brown, what would you say are any advantages to No Child Left Behind?

  • 14:25:40

    BROWNWell, I think, you know, our school system desperately needs attention and improvement. I don't think we're -- you know, we're here criticizing AYP, but we're not going to defend the status quo of, you know, what was there before it. And I think that's, like, the sort of false dichotomy that's been made.

  • 14:25:58

    BROWNYou know, you're either with this crowd of education reformers that support the No Child Left Behind, sort of assessment regime, or you're with the status quo. And the teachers' unions have been shunted into that. So I think that's problematic. No Child Left Behind brought a lot of attention and headline news to education. So that's really important. We just need to get it right.

  • 14:26:21

    BROWNGive us -- you know, teachers are crying out, give us something realistic, and give us the resources to help our students instead of distort the curriculum.

  • 14:26:30

    NNAMDIOn to the telephones. Here's Pamela in Quantico, Va. Pamela, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

  • 14:26:37

    PAMELAHi. I was just calling -- first of all, thanks for taking my call. And I really appreciate that you have teachers on the air 'cause there are so many times where you don't hear from the teacher. I was a first year teacher last year. And this year -- obviously, calling from Quantico, Va., we're over at the Marine Corps Base. We got surprise orders to come here, so couldn't exactly get into a school right away.

  • 14:26:58

    PAMELABut I was certified in New York and then, you know, got military orders to North Carolina and then moved to Virginia. And I would just really love for any of your people there to comment on the differences between state curriculums. A lot of people aren't aware, I think, in the United States that, when you move from one state to another, everything changes. I mean, you basically are coming -- starting from scratch.

  • 14:27:24

    PAMELAA lot of times, if you were tenured as a teacher, you're not going to start off tenured. You have to go through the whole process all over again. So if they could just comment on that, I think that would be really important for the listeners to hear.

  • 14:27:35

    NNAMDIWell, we know that Dan Brown had his baptism of fire in New York and then at a later point moved to D.C., so you are in a position to comment on the difference between different states.

  • 14:27:44

    BROWNIt's true, and it's a big difference. And thanks for mentioning this. Yeah, in New York, I mean, there's different lists of standards that you draw from different types of classes. You know, in D.C., the kids take a D.C. history class. In New York, they learn about Iroquois longhouses. And the paperwork involved in certification, transferring between states and the lack of reciprocity, it really is insane.

  • 14:28:09

    BROWNAnd this is something that never gets talked about. But when I was moving from New York to D.C. in 2008, I had a master's degree in education from Columbia, and I was employable. And I applied through the DCPS paperwork to get my certification. I had all the tests. I had the Praxis test, and it just never happened. Like, it never came through.

  • 14:28:35

    BROWNAnd I ended up taking the most interesting job opportunity at the public charter school, not because of any pro-charter ideology, but it was a great job. And DCPS, you know, there was nothing there, bureaucratically, for me. And I think a lot of people fall through this paperwork -- these cracks in the system with the paperwork. It's madness.

  • 14:28:55

    NNAMDIPamela, thank you so much for your call. Pamela also spoke about being a first year teacher. Right now, we know that we need more new teachers to meet our education challenges. But first year teachers, apparently, face a crazy learning curve. And many teachers end up dropping out before they get their sea legs. That was almost your experience, right, Dan?

  • 14:29:14

    BROWNThat was. I mean we need to recruit 2 million new teachers in the next decade because of retirements and people leaving the profession in droves. And half of new teachers leave within their first five years, and I did that. I left after one year in the Bronx, and then I came back to teaching. But it's true. It is -- there is a real learning curve because, first of all, you're new.

  • 14:29:34

    BROWNIf you're not from the community that you're teaching in, you know, you're a new member of the community. There's a lot to learn about who's there. Teaching is a craft. It's an art and a science, and doesn't matter where your degree is from. There are a million different micro-decisions that you make per day in the classroom.

  • 14:29:51

    BROWNAnd you have to get a feel for that to balance out crafting the curriculum, handling the routines, dealing with all sorts of students. And it's a personal thing.

  • 14:30:00

    NNAMDIThank you very much for you call, Pamela. Angela, you're going to say?

  • 14:30:03

    BENJAMINOne of the things that young teachers face is often maintaining discipline in their classroom and isolation. And so, you know, some things are in place. I know D.C. has things in place that support the new teachers learning curve with the IMPACT and that all of the things that are associated with that. But becoming comfortable in the classroom is very difficult. As he said, it's an art form. I have often thought it's an art form.

  • 14:30:29

    BENJAMINIt takes four to five years to really get -- to become a master, and you need support for that. And then, also, some teachers come in just -- through the new programs, like Teach for America, where they come in as a resume builder. And...

  • 14:30:46

    NNAMDIAnd they're only going to stick around for, at most, maybe three years?

  • 14:30:48

    BENJAMINRight. And when you -- when those teachers take up positions, there could be another teacher in there who was going to plan on staying for a long time. And I don't want to say that they're denied that position. But when you build your system on that, it can lead to problems down the road.

  • 14:31:06

    NNAMDIWe're going to get to that a little later, too. Matthew, your students come from at least 22 countries and speak 19 different languages at home. So that presents some unique challenges in terms of getting kids up to full proficiency. It also presents unique challenges when it comes to engaging parents, doesn't it?

  • 14:31:24

    TOSIELLOYes. It's probably one of the best aspects of teaching at my particular school. And even as a county, Arlington, which a lot of people may not know, we have -- I wrote my little stats down. We've got 98 languages and 126 countries in the county. And we've got -- actually, 19 and 40 countries as of last -- as of this morning. So our diversity is what makes it interesting and makes us, you know, very, very vibrant, and it makes it interesting for everybody.

  • 14:31:56

    TOSIELLOWhen -- specifically to your point, when interacting with parents, I mean, it can be very tricky. Now, luckily, you know, Arlington public schools has been one of the pioneers in English language education for new language learners. And we're very lucky to have a lot interpretation support. So when we have parent conferences in October, you know, one of the things that is provided to parents is interpretation.

  • 14:32:24

    TOSIELLOAnd we just had our meeting on Friday, where we go ahead and we kind of plan to see -- we try to back up all -- you know, make blocks of, say, for example -- you know, Spanish is the predominant language, and we have a lot of that ability in house. But, you know, we have other languages, like Thai and Mongolian and Urdu and Bengali.

  • 14:32:44

    TOSIELLOAnd, you know -- for example, there is only Thai interpreter for the whole county, so you have to be kind of strategic. But we really feel at our school -- and I know we feel as a county -- that it's important that we engage all of our parents, regardless of their origin or what language they speak, because we know parent involvement is -- I mean, it's huge.

  • 14:33:04

    NNAMDIBack to the telephones. Here is Ali in Warrenton, Va. Ali, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

  • 14:33:10

    ALIThank you so much for taking my call, Kojo. I'm a parent of two elementary school children in Fauquier County, one of the best elementary schools in the town of Warrenton. And as a very involved parent, both on a school level and also in advisory committees in partnership with the school division, our school, Brumfield Elementary, for a couple of years, was not able to meet the AYP.

  • 14:33:43

    ALIAnd one of the most wonderful programs that the commonwealth of Virginia was piloting, which did benefit Brumfield tremendously, was this false notion, that the children are unhappy and they are not in a healthy, learning environment. It's absolutely false. The kids at Brumfield Elementary are ecstatic. They are full of high energy, very, very happy.

  • 14:34:12

    ALIUnfortunately -- and I think some of your guests have eluded to this -- some of the kids, unfortunately, come to school already unprepared and not being able to adequately keep up with a majority of the students. And part of that, unfortunately, is due to the dynamics at home, inability for the parents to supplement their education before and after school. So this is what this pilot program did.

  • 14:34:43

    ALIIt said, look, we recognize the administrators and the teachers are outstanding in your local school, and you don't really want to leave that school to be taken because, you know, of course, as you know, they were given choice of going to a school that was meeting the standards.

  • 14:34:57

    ALIAnd they said that we're going to spend those resources, which end up being a very small price to pay for the parents and the administrators combined, as the community partners in our children's success select tutoring companies that would come to your school. The most schools...

  • 14:35:17

    NNAMDII think you're talking about the kind of situation that Matthew Tosiello would be intimately familiar with, correct?

  • 14:35:23

    TOSIELLOYes. No, that's definitely -- that would describe our school. Our kids love to be at school, and it's -- you know, sometimes you hesitate and say, well, do all the -- I can really generalize and say that our kids love being at school. They don't want to leave at the end of the day. It's not uncommon to hear, you know, can we come in over the summer? The kids are really engaged.

  • 14:35:45

    TOSIELLOI mean, they're -- they have -- and it's not just a social aspect. I mean, there is that being, you know, with your peers, but...

  • 14:35:53

    NNAMDISo the AYP does not necessarily give you an indication of what is going on in that school?

  • 14:35:57

    TOSIELLOI definitely do not think so. And I drive -- you know, I live in the community, which I teach, and I'm very fortunate to be able to do so. And I drive up the little hill to school every morning. And there, I do see the children who are getting on the bus that are going to their transfer school. And I think, you know, how sad. Because I wonder, have they been in the school? Have they seen what's going on?

  • 14:36:21

    TOSIELLOBecause, you know, we have folks who have, you know, left and then come back because they say, wait a minute. We couldn't find the kind of school culture elsewhere that you have at yours, so...

  • 14:36:33

    NNAMDIAli, thank you so much for your call. The reason I'm taking all these calls now is because, well, teachers are just on their lunch hour right now. So here's Rio in Prince George's County, Md. Rio, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

  • 14:36:44

    RIOThank you, Kojo. I appreciate it. And, yeah, I'm on my lunch hour. I just want to hit on three topics very briefly, and if your guests can address those, I'd be quite happy. One goes back to the No Child Left Behind and its significance. With us having to re-author, make new decisions, do you really believe that we should continue on a path of No Child Left Behind based on those standardized testing?

  • 14:37:04

    RIOAs the gentleman just said, it does not paint an accurate picture of the school and the community of that school. It just paints an accurate picture of who may have had a good breakfast or who may have tested better that day generally. And that's no way to judge our students. Second is, can they address the parental support aspect? Every true educator knows that you must prepare the child before the child actually arrives at school.

  • 14:37:25

    RIOAnd, third, adequate and fair pay. I'm not talking about merit pay or anything. I'm talking about we are people who have higher educations. Most of us have to maintain a master's, if not above that, in order to be considered even credible. So with that being said, we haven't received most pay raises in almost 45 years in some counties. Can your guests address that? Thank you, Kojo.

  • 14:37:48

    NNAMDIThank you very much, Rio. I'll start with the first part of it, No Child Left Behind, and put it in a slightly different context. This has been the summer of teacher cheating scandals. We've learned about rampant cheating that took place in Atlanta, Ga., and there have been cheating scandals or allegations in D.C. and in Maryland. Is this, in your view, a product, maybe an inevitable product, of testing a byproduct of testing, Angela Benjamin?

  • 14:38:14

    BENJAMINWell, unfortunately, it appears to be a byproduct of the testing since it's a reality. When things are high stakes, people make compromises that they should not make. The education of our students is our number one priority. And to educate them for the 21st century, where learning is totally different than it was in the past, perhaps a high stakes test is not the correct path to take, especially one that is not funded and only judged.

  • 14:38:44

    BENJAMINSo I think that perhaps it is time to revisit what we should use to measure our students. Also, everybody knows that parental support -- to address what the young man said, parental support is critical to student success. But you can -- you know, a good teacher is also important to student success. And you can make a difference in a child's life by being there every day and by holding that child to high standards.

  • 14:39:12

    BENJAMINAnd, finally, as far salaries go, I know that there are teachers in the United States that don't make very much money. Now, D.C. had been set up by Michelle Rhee and the people in -- who support -- outside supporters and contributors to our income. So we are -- we're doing pretty well right now. But he's right that teachers have a lot education and not a lot of compensation.

  • 14:39:39

    NNAMDIWhich brings me, Dan Brown, to the SEED model I mentioned earlier that I'd like to have you discuss that for our listeners or explain that for our listeners.

  • 14:39:46

    BROWNSure. The SEED school is an innovative charter school model where it's a public boarding school in Southeast D.C. for students who live in the District. It's an -- tuition-free, college prep, 24-hour supportive boarding school, 24 hours a day, five days a week. So the kids live on a five-acre campus. There's a boys' dorm and a girls' dorm, grades six through 12, and it's very intensively geared towards college prep.

  • 14:40:12

    BROWNIt was started by Eric Adler and Rajiv Vinnakota, two social entrepreneurs that stepped out of the private sector and came up with this model. And it does well to send kids to college. And the college graduations rates are significantly higher than comparable around the District, and its expanding. There's a SEED school in Maryland now that's scaling up, and there's other SEED schools on the way.

  • 14:40:36

    NNAMDIOn to the telephones. Again, Rio, thank you for your call. Here is Theodore in Beltsville, Md. Theodore, your turn.

  • 14:40:44

    THEODOREThank you for taking my call, Koji. (sic) I have two question, but I'm going to ask you the question number two first because you just mentioned about lunch hour.

  • 14:40:53

    NNAMDIYes.

  • 14:40:54

    THEODOREMy son is in the first grade at the Beltsville Academy in Prince George's County, Md.

  • 14:41:01

    NNAMDIYes.

  • 14:41:01

    THEODOREIts lunchtime start at 10 o'clock, and we've been sending emails asking the administration about what's going on with lunch starting at 10 o'clock for more than a week now. And we still haven't heard anything from the administration.

  • 14:41:19

    NNAMDIWhat has your son told you about why lunch is that early?

  • 14:41:24

    THEODOREBeltsville Academy has a history. It used to be Beltsville Elementary School up to sixth grade. But for the last couple year they upgrade to, I believe, middle school now. So because of the conflict of schedule and the capacity of the school, they put first grade children have lunch first. I would rather think that maybe the older kids have lunch first, but not for the first grade kids. But, anyway, 10 o'clock is so early to have lunch.

  • 14:41:58

    NNAMDIIt certainly sounds like it, and we can't address that question here because we have -- oh, I'm sorry. Here's Dan Brown.

  • 14:42:05

    BROWNHi, Theodore. I think, you know, it's a capacity issue that the cafeteria isn't big enough to accommodate kids. They have to start lunch on -- ultra early. And this is something that goes on everywhere. You know, the infrastructure of schools across the country, so many schools are, like, crumbling. I mean, if you walk into like a student bathroom in a neighborhood school in the Bronx, you know, it's squalid a lot of the times.

  • 14:42:27

    BROWNI mean, it's crazy. So, you know, there's a bill out right now, part of the Obama plan to invest in school infrastructure. And I don't know if that will change your son's lunchtime, but it's something. It's direly needed.

  • 14:42:41

    NNAMDITheodore, thank you very much for your call. We have to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue our conversation with teachers about teaching today. Taking your calls at 800-433-8850, or you can send email to kojo@wamu.org. What do you think is a fair and accurate way to assess students or schools? 800-433-8850. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

  • 14:45:10

    NNAMDIWe're getting teachers' perspectives on the school year ahead from Dan Brown. He's an English teacher at the SEED School of Washington, D.C., a public charter school. He's also author of the book "The Great Expectations School: A Rookie Year in the New Blackboard Jungle." Dan Brown is also a contributor to the Huffington Post. Matthew Tosiello is a third grade ESL teacher at Randolph Elementary School in Arlington, Va.

  • 14:45:33

    NNAMDIHe is the Arlington Public Schools 2011 Teacher of the Year. He's also a winner of the Agnes Meyer Outstanding Teacher Award for 2011. And Angela Benjamin is a physics teacher at Woodrow Wilson High School in Washington and lead teacher at Wilson Science, Math and Technology Academy. She won a 2010 Excellence in Teaching Award from DC Public Schools.

  • 14:45:53

    NNAMDIShe's been rated highly effective for two straight years on the systems IMPACT evaluation system, which brings me to questions being raised about aforementioned IMPACT system. Angela Benjamin, The Washington Post recently posted an opinion piece by Stephanie Black on its education website. She taught at a D.C. public school for four years but took a break because of the pressure.

  • 14:46:14

    NNAMDIIt's an interesting read. But one of her suggestions sticks out. She said IMPACT should be changed to just two categories: ineffective and effective. What do you think?

  • 14:46:24

    BENJAMINI read that article, Kojo.

  • 14:46:26

    NNAMDII figure you did.

  • 14:46:27

    BENJAMINAnd, you know, at first I thought, well, maybe she's off. But, really, when I thought about it, maybe she's on because the pressure to perform is tremendous. And once you become highly effective, you've set the bar so high that you have to maintain that. And then you win an award, and then you have to maintain that. So you feel more pressure and more pressure, and it's very intense.

  • 14:46:52

    BENJAMINNow, I appreciate the bonuses and the perks that come from the -- being a highly effective teacher. But if there were only two categories of effective and ineffective, I would be like...

  • 14:47:06

    NNAMDIWe got a tweet here from Sekou Biddle, who used to sit on the Board of Education in D.C. and, for a while, on the city -- on the council. "What do your guests believe would be a more fair or accurate way to assess students or schools?" Matthew.

  • 14:47:21

    TOSIELLOWell, I think -- you know, I'm a big believer in authentic assessment, you know, evaluating student work, work sampling. In Virginia, we have something that is actually being phased out for some students, the Virginia Grade Level Alternative.

  • 14:47:36

    TOSIELLOYou know, looking at student's actual work on a day-to-day basis, as opposed to a one -- you know, a one-time snapshot, like the gentleman said, of maybe you had breakfast, maybe you didn't, maybe you had a good day, maybe you didn't. You know, authentic assessment is a much better route. The problem is it's labor intensive. And it's very expensive.

  • 14:47:57

    TOSIELLOAnd I think one of the biggest problems that we have of assessing students is that, you know, it really is lowest common denominator, lowest cost. And a multiple choice test, whether it's given, you know, on a bubble sheet or on a computer is, economically, the most viable compared to all the other means because, you know, authentic assessment requires authentic human eyes to look at it.

  • 14:48:21

    TOSIELLOAnd the more human eyes you put, the more cost goes into it. And I just want to make a quick observation about the cheating that was brought up.

  • 14:48:26

    NNAMDISure.

  • 14:48:30

    TOSIELLOYou know, I wasn't terribly surprised to hear about cheating, you know, come to the national forefront because if you look at -- you know, I don't know if it gets more scorned because it's teachers or maybe just 'cause it's the news of the moment. But if you look at, you know, other parts of our economy, you know, there's all kinds of cheating going on.

  • 14:48:50

    TOSIELLOAnd when it comes down to, you know, pressure and economics, people seem to inevitably, you know, move to that at some point. You know, look at the financial sector, you know? And they're -- if you think about it, teachers are much more regulated than Wall Street. But I'll say one thing that I like. If we have to give standardized tests -- and we've done it at my school. I know it's not for everybody.

  • 14:49:15

    TOSIELLOBut computer-based testing, you know, it takes a lot of the -- you know, it takes a lot of the guesswork and the opportunity out of it because they are secure exams. There are no -- there's nothing to erase with a pencil eraser.

  • 14:49:28

    NNAMDIWell, this show -- and I'm glad you raised that question about how these things are presented in the media, comparing the financial sector to teachers because this show, like a lot of other media outlet, talks about education a lot. We often hear from people who are former teachers who move from the classroom to become administrators or union officials.

  • 14:49:48

    NNAMDIAnd I suspect that ends up affecting the way we discuss the challenges facing teachers day-to-day and over a whole school year. How would you assess the way teachers and the work of teaching is presented in the media, Dan Brown?

  • 14:50:03

    BROWNThank you for asking that, and thanks for having teachers on. Thank you.

  • 14:50:05

    NNAMDIGod, looks like he was waiting for that. I'm leaving the room.

  • 14:50:07

    BROWNWell, I think teachers do have a bit of, like, a chip on our shoulder about, we get talked about a lot, but we don't get to speak that much. So I really appreciate you having us on. And I think the test scores do get outsized attention in turn, and AYP makes for an easy headline.

  • 14:50:23

    BROWNAnd I was actually at a Carnegie corporation event for the Education Writers Association, where there were a few teachers and all these education journalists from all over the country. And one thing they said over and over again is that we want more teachers' voices. We want more sources that are teachers. We want to do more stories about the nuts and bolts of teachers' lives.

  • 14:50:46

    BROWNBut teachers are so often prohibited from talking to us by their administrators, or they fear reprisals from their districts or their administrators, so we can't get those stories. So in that absence, we have to go with these press releases that are put out by corporations or put out by city hall. And so teachers are sort of relegated to the blogs or organizing on their own.

  • 14:51:07

    BROWNI blog for this website called teacherleaders.org run by the Center for Teaching Quality that does great work in putting together teachers from all over the country to share good practices and also to become policy advocates. So there is stuff going on.

  • 14:51:21

    BROWNBut teachers in the media -- well, you know, if you watch "Waiting for 'Superman,'" which the SEED school is in, you know, you get a very sort of black-and-white picture where there are -- there's hero, savior teachers. And then there are the evil, villainous, complacent, unionized, demon teachers that are reading their newspaper and watching kids' futures go down the drain. And that's a problematic caricature as you pointed out in the opening.

  • 14:51:50

    NNAMDIThat's a skewed picture, Angela Benjamin?

  • 14:51:52

    BENJAMINAbsolutely. That picture is totally untrue. I mean, there is -- there will always be bad apples in every bunch, but teachers are hardworking, dedicated citizens who are trying to do their best for kids. We love children. That's why we teach. Our work is reflective. We always have to think about what we're doing. We always have to face failure and lift our heads up and continue.

  • 14:52:14

    BENJAMINWe have to get to Johnny in the back of the classroom who doesn't understand, and we have a lot of responsibility. And then you look at the media, and there are movies like "Bad Teacher."

  • 14:52:24

    TOSIELLOMm hmm.

  • 14:52:25

    BENJAMINAnd, you know...

  • 14:52:26

    NNAMDIYeah, I saw the previews for that one, which made me knew I wasn't going to see it. Here is Jimmy in Arlington, Va. Jimmy, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

  • 14:52:35

    JIMMYHi, Kojo. Thanks for taking my call. And thanks to your panel for this lively discussion. My question was just to talk a lot about pressures that are on teachers. I wanted to know whether they've seen among their colleagues in their respective schools whether there -- they've seen brain drain in schools and whether they see young and invigorated teachers being driven out sort of too quickly and too early because of all the pressures on them.

  • 14:53:01

    JIMMYAnd I'll take my call off the air. Thank you.

  • 14:53:03

    NNAMDIAngela, you nodded yes?

  • 14:53:04

    BENJAMINYes, I am. I'm nodding my head because the brain drain in DCPS has been tremendous. But most of the brain drain was the more experienced teachers. A lot of experienced teachers in the face of criticism and lack of faith that they could do what they wanted to -- that they were good teachers and lack of respect, a lot of those teachers left the system.

  • 14:53:26

    NNAMDIWhat kinds of incentives and penalties are therefore appropriate for teachers? One of the ideas that has taken hold within education reform is this idea of carrots and sticks. Sticks are the ability to fire ineffective teachers more quickly and efficiently. The carrots are typically financial rewards. What do you think about this, Matthew?

  • 14:53:43

    TOSIELLOWell, to be -- personally -- this is my personal opinion, not that of my school district or, you know, my school. But the idea of carrots and sticks, I just don't like, and I'll tell you what. I work very hard. My colleagues work very, very hard, my administrators. I mean, everybody works hard. And, you know, there are many factors that are not under my control, much as I would like them to be.

  • 14:54:05

    TOSIELLOYou know, I can't control poverty. I can work around it. I can try to give -- support it. But there are some things that can't be resolved. There's all kinds -- transiency. There's all these things. And the reality is, you know, if you offer to double my salary tomorrow and say, I'll pay you, you know, $104,000 to do your job, as opposed to the -- whatever, the $52,000, I would turn that down because, honestly, like, if I'm giving -- you know, I give 110 percent.

  • 14:54:34

    TOSIELLOI only teach during the school year. I don't tutor. I really have no life during the week. I try to cobble...

  • 14:54:40

    NNAMDIYou used to make more money on a previous job, didn't you?

  • 14:54:42

    TOSIELLOI made more money on my third job out of college, and I'm still not to that level yet. And I was not making relatively that much. So -- but the idea that more money, you know, will just improve things, I think, is foolish and false because, at least in my personal experience, you get what you get.

  • 14:55:01

    NNAMDII'd like all of you to answer this question, starting with you. If you were making more money in a previous job, what is it that brought you to this profession? Why are you a teacher?

  • 14:55:10

    TOSIELLOWell, you know, I have a personal journey to teaching in that both of my parents, you know, are teachers. And as a teacher's child, I said I would never ever teach. And then I've eaten my words since then. But, you know, I worked in the corporate world. I really had cool jobs, and I worked in marketing and public relations. And, you know, my dad passed away. And, you know, he was 61, and he never got his retirement.

  • 14:55:32

    TOSIELLOBut as kids, we used to go away every summer for two months 'cause both of my parents had the summers off, which is unpaid leave, I might add, for those listening who think teachers get a paid vacation in the summer. They don't. It's unpaid. But, you know, we got time with my parents. And I think that was, you know -- having to reflect after losing one's father, you know, it was -- I really wanted to do something where I could make, you know, somewhat of a difference.

  • 14:56:00

    TOSIELLOBut also, you know, I really enjoyed, you know, seeing them working, growing up, and I felt like I had something to offer. And I think I actually use my marketing and my PR skills more in my current job than I maybe have in the past.

  • 14:56:13

    NNAMDIAngela Benjamin.

  • 14:56:15

    BENJAMINWell, on the side where we're being paid for better performance or, what is it, called better performance, with more money comes more pressure. So you're scrutinized more. And, you know, even being highly effective for two years and being effective even before that, it still makes my stomach hurt when someone comes in my classroom to grade me.

  • 14:56:38

    BENJAMINPeople can come in anytime to watch me. I have no problem with that. But if you're coming in to grade me, it makes my stomach hurt.

  • 14:56:46

    NNAMDIIt makes you nervous.

  • 14:56:48

    BENJAMINAbsolutely.

  • 14:56:49

    NNAMDIDan Brown.

  • 14:56:50

    BROWNOkay. To the why-be-a-teacher question, I didn't expect to be a career teacher. I just tried it straight out of NYU film school. I joined a program like Teach for America, and I was just going to do it for a couple of years. But -- and my mom was a career teacher, and this was right after 9/11. I wanted to work in New York City. But being a teacher is amazing.

  • 14:57:08

    BROWNI mean, we've spent this -- most of this hour talking about the extreme pressures and challenges, and there is so much to complain about. But the school year is so long. It is such a marathon journey. And when you see the palpable progress that you have a hand in and you form relationships with young people and you spend all day with them and you get to know each other, it's extraordinary. There's nothing like it.

  • 14:57:35

    NNAMDIAngela Benjamin, is that why you got into it?

  • 14:57:37

    BENJAMINTo be a teacher is an incredible experience. I love it so much. I came -- I was a -- I got my education, and then I was a housewife for 10 years. I stayed home with my children 'cause I figured I had children. It was my responsibility to raise them. So I went back to school with my kids. And I was doing daycare with a big education.

  • 14:57:56

    BENJAMINAnd my mentor teacher, she took me out of there and put me in a kindergarten classroom, where I first got my wings as a teacher, with hugs and sliding boards and swings and looking at the bugs and insects.

  • 14:58:06

    NNAMDIAnd the rest, as they say, is history...

  • 14:58:08

    BENJAMINIt was -- absolutely.

  • 14:58:09

    NNAMDI…'cause we're out of time. Angela Benjamin is a physics teacher at Woodrow Wilson High School in Washington, D.C. Dan Brown is an English teacher at the SEED School of Washington, D.C., a public charter school. And Matthew Tosiello is a third grade ESL teacher at Randolph Elementary School in Arlington, Va. Thank you all so much for joining us on a school day. Thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

Related Links

Topics + Tags

Most Recent Shows