MR. MARC FISHERFrom WAMU 88.5, at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your community with the world. I'm Marc Fisher sitting in for Kojo. Coming up this hour, it's a rare bright spot in the nation's employment picture.

MR. MARC FISHERWhile the overall employment -- unemployment rate remains stubbornly north of 9 percent, there's actually a shortage of developers creating new apps for mobile devices, such as cell phones and iPads. It's a field that didn't even exist five years ago. But now, mobile apps do everything from finding nearby restaurants to letting you check in at the airport.

MR. MARC FISHERName a company large or small. And chances are that they are developing new apps for their business, and they're looking to hire, making mobile application development the fastest growing area in tech jobs. What was once the realm of techie teenagers dreaming up games after school is now an exploding field of computer programmers, marketers and graphic designers.

MR. MARC FISHERAccording to our guests, there's now a shortage of developers for both big and small companies as Android looks for apps along with the iPad and other platforms. So here's a ray of hope for techies and non-techies alike. If you're considering career options or looking for a growing field in which China and India haven't yet become totally dominant, it might be worth taking a look at mobile app development.

MR. MARC FISHERAnd joining me to discuss this issue and opportunity, Adam Porter. He's a professor in the computer science department at the University of Maryland. Pete Erickson is founder and director of innovation at Disruptathon and founder of MoDevDC, a professional mobile developers organization. And joining us by phone from San Francisco, John Poore. He's regional vice president for Onward Search, an Internet marketing staffing company.

MR. MARC FISHERAnd let's start, if we can, with Adam Porter from the University of Maryland. This is a field -- obviously, it didn't exist five years ago, and now, everybody talks about their mobile apps. What -- give us a kind of an overview of the scope of this field. I mean, how -- is this something that's going to be alive and kicking for a long time to come? Or is this like an initial burst of activity and then it's done?

PROF. ADAM PORTERThanks, Marc. Thank you for having me. So, basically, you're right. This field didn't exist about five years ago. I can remember getting my first iPhone or seeing my first picture of and thinking, wow, that's really cool. And if you think about it, if you step back for a second, though, it's just part of a long-term trend we're seeing in computing, of miniaturization.

PROF. ADAM PORTERSo we have our mainframes, to the minicomputers, to our personal computers, to our laptops. And this is the next step. Our computers are getting lighter. They're getting more ubiquitous. We're able to carry them around. And, you know, every time we shift those form factors, there are new ways we can use it. There's new information that we can bring. There are new things that we can do.

PROF. ADAM PORTERSo I don't see this going anywhere. I think, you know, the devices will get smaller. They'll become more pervasive. But information is here to stay.

FISHERBut is it the kind of thing where, once the new technology comes along, everyone creates products for it, and then it sort of dies off? I mean, I think of the phenomenon we had with music. When CDs came out, everything gets transferred over into the new format. And then there's a tremendous drop-off in the production.

PORTERThis is true. Now, I think, though, that, as we're moving things in this online format, it's no longer about the physical format, okay? It's about the bits. And that's not going to change. Now, again, the details will, and the skills that we need are going to have to -- you know, as engineers, we're building the new apps.

PORTERThese are going to have to change over time. But, you know, this is a trend that's here to stay with us. And it's a great career opportunity for people.

FISHERPete Erickson, you are founder of a company called Disruptathon. Tell us what that is.

MR. PETE ERICKSONDisruptathon is a company that focuses solely on identifying creative and disruptive thinking across different industry segments. We do that through special events. Our next event is coming up on Sept. 27, looking at social media.

FISHERAnd so you are -- in this job, are you actually creating mobile apps?

ERICKSONYeah, we use -- so we created mobile applications to take audience feedback in real-time while presenters are presenting new ideas. We actually collect what the audience thinks of those ideas. And then we utilize that to -- we could either run events as contests or just gather really important information to see what people think of the various trends that are out there.

FISHERSo as you look at -- you get a new device. You get a new iPad. And there are all kinds of cools things you can do with it. But there are also all sorts of companies that you either do business with or entertainment sources that you're interested in, and you want the apps for those. So there's sort of a natural set of apps that you want on your device.

FISHERAnd then, I would imagine, the next step is the things you didn't know you wanted. And that's where the creativity comes in.

ERICKSONThat's right. That's right. And, you know, for the listeners out there, we just say that, you know, apps are software. Apps are software programs. What's changed is the delivery of that software to devices, and that's why it's become so pervasive. I'd just like to point out that, you know, this area of hyper-innovation growth is maybe looked at as -- by an example of Apple becoming the largest company in the world.

ERICKSONThe reason why Apple is the largest company in the world is they have figured out the content play relative to mobile apps and information in general. And that should be a good marker for us as a country. I mean, there are many ways that we are dominating this sector. And with companies like Apple and Google with Android, that should be a wake-up call, that this is an area of the economy that we can really capitalize on.

FISHERAnd tell me a little bit about the economics of this industry. I mean, some apps you have to pay for, some apps you don't. But, in general, as you look forward, is this -- is the model going to be one where the consumer is the one buying the app? Or, more generally, will apps be free, and then, you know, either advertising-supported or metered usage?

ERICKSONYeah, that's a great question. There's going to be many different types of apps. So there are going to be consumer-based apps that we can buy for our own personal use. And that's, you know, largely what the sort of the app revolution has become famous for, thus far, is consumer base apps. But now, there's the -- you know, the entire business enterprise, if you will, the different sectors of the economy: retail, manufacturing, health care.

ERICKSONThey are all being greatly impacted by the ability to get apps out there and improve this industry. And that's the big opportunity for this economy. That's letting people come into the mobile space through various different channels and, you know, create great careers around getting involved.

FISHERSo we already have people calling and saying they don't know what a mobile app is. So, Adam, you want to give us the quick definition?

PORTERSure, sure. So, I mean, I think many of us have seen examples of smartphones, your iPhone. There are a number of Android phones. Recently, we've seen a big explosion in tablets, so the iPad, the iPad 2. There are a number of Android tablets now. Samsung has something called the Galaxy. So those are, you know, computers that are about the size of a clipboard.

PORTEROkay. They have a display screen, and you can use them, but with -- through touch and things like that. So, basically, we're talking about software. Peter mentioned this here. Mobile apps are software that run on one of these handheld devices, so a phone, a smartphone or a tablet in particular.

FISHEROkay. You can join our conversation by calling 1-800-433-8850, or email us at kojo -- K-O-J-O -- @wamu.org. If you're thinking about a career in technology or considering developing mobile apps, maybe you have an idea for an app that you think could go viral, give us a call. What interesting new apps have you downloaded lately? Let us know at 1-800-433-8850. And let's bring John Poore into the conversation now.

FISHERHe's regional vice president for Onward Search, joining us by phone from San Francisco. And, John, welcome. Can you give us some sense of how much this field of mobile applications is growing?

MR. JOHN POOREYeah. Definitely, Marc. I think that, you know, as you look at the industry as a whole, some, you know, important statistics to really keep in mind, as far as what's driving it, is, you know, we're -- I think Mary Meeker put out a -- with Morgan Stanley last year, had put out a speech saying, hey, gosh, you know, if you look at the Internet usage from global to -- you know, from global mobile to global desktop, we expected more people will be, you know, using mobile to access their desktop than -- or access the Internet than the desktop by 2014.

MR. JOHN POORESo what you're seeing in growth there is not just the application developers, but, certainly, interaction designers, you know, the folks that spend time looking at how an app gets used or how a specific device gets used in -- you know, in line with an application. You're looking at mobile marketers, and you're looking at, you know, a job category creation of folks that are measuring the analytics of how people are, you know, accessing the Web and what they're doing.

MR. JOHN POORESo, you know, it looks -- right now, I would say that the vast number of requests that we see across the organization are, you know, either directly related to mobile app development or are really geared towards the supporting analytic marketing and interaction that comes along with it. And I would say, at this point, it's -- you know, we're probably growing in that space at, oh, you know, 2-1 over any other market category that we cover.

FISHERWow. Well, you know, there was just news a little while back about Google planning to hire dozens of software developers to create apps for smartphones and other mobile devices. They're looking for software engineers, product managers, user-interface experts and just, basically, people who have ideas for mobile apps.

FISHERSo how much of this is a quest for creative minds who might otherwise, in previous years, have gone into magazines or movies or something like that? And how much of this is a very specific technical skill set that employers are looking for? Pete?

ERICKSONYeah, I would say -- Marc, I would say that probably about 20 percent of the jobs that are out there are actually coding jobs, where it's, you know, hardcore development. The rest of the jobs, they're around the ecosystem of mobile. UX designers is a big growth area, where people, you know, design what the interface looks like, a lot of right-brain jobs and then also some really good left-brain jobs, so jobs that involve program management.

ERICKSONIf I may, there are near -- there are literally hundreds of jobs available in the D.C. region right now. I've been talking with companies the last -- over the last week. To give you some examples here, a company called Synergy Systems out of -- based out of D.C. has 32 current openings. They're a software concept and design agency.

ERICKSONOther companies that are hiring right now,-- Mobilemo, Aegis Mobile, Hook Wireless, BoxTone, iFormBuilder, Socialize, USA Today, Washington Post are all hiring mobile developers. And yesterday, I was on a call with eBay and PayPal. They have over 1,000 current job openings...

FISHERWow.

ERICKSON...in their company. So this sector of the economy is really booming, and there are a lot of great jobs out there. But I would also temper it with, this is not a gold rush. This is a great career move for folks out there that are thinking about where to go to work in the long term. Go back, get training. If you're a developer, go get trained in mobile. If you've got a creative vent, go learn UX design in mobile.

ERICKSONAnd, you know, there are no 100 percent guarantees. But I can tell you, with strong conviction, that it would be a great career move for you and very good for this economy.

FISHERLet's go to Todd in Bowie. Here's a question. Todd, you're on the air.

TODDHey. How are you doing?

FISHERGood. Go ahead.

TODDYeah, so I'm a teacher. And, you know, I've been having this kind of pipedream of this kind of wired-in classroom. And with the iPad, it's starting to look like it could be possible just to present information in a very visual and very quick way and just -- so I have this concept for an app that I'm really kind of itching to try out. But I'm slightly paranoid. And so...

FISHERYou're not going to tell us about it here, I guess.

TODDMy question is, is that, you know, I'd love to link up with a developer and kind of, you know, be the creative end of things and kind of the logistical feature input to things. But, you know, I don't know whether I need to link up with a big old company who -- you know, I don't know how the business world sector works.

TODDYou know, I'd love to think that everyone is altruistic out there. But, you know, I want my idea to come to fruition and, hopefully, help the family out also, so...

FISHERI think Pete Erickson's going to tell you to hold close to that idea.

ERICKSONThat's right. So I would encourage you to join the MoDevDC group. It's on meetup.com. We have folks come to our meetups -- we have two of them a week, looking for cofounders and developers of ideas. That's a great way to get started. It's actually why I started MoDevDC. I was looking for mobile developers. And I started a group, so they could come to me.

FISHERAnd we a link to MoDevDC on our website if you'd like to check that out. Thanks for the call, Todd.

PORTERRight. If I could...

TODDSure.

PORTERIf I could follow up there...

FISHERYes, Adam.

PORTERSo I would just like to point out that the use of mobile applications in education is also a booming area. This is an area where we still haven't quite gotten it figured out. There are a lot of opportunities, a lot of interesting ways to use mobile devices. You know, I'm very interested myself, for example, of trying to do teaching outside the four walls of the classroom.

PORTERSo I've got a student right now at the University of Maryland who's working with our plant sciences department. They have classes -- so the University of Maryland is an arboretum. We have 7,000 trees on campus with GPS coordinates. They're all tagged. And when they have classes where they go and look at trees and assess trees, somebody, a TA or a professor, has to physically walk these students around campus. So it's slow. It's expensive.

PORTERThe students can't try it on their own, but we're working on a mobile app where the student can walk up, figure out -- the phone knows where they are. They can look at the tree, and they can start to do one of these assessments -- fill it out, you know, what's the quality of the tree, the bark, the leaves, you know, what animals live in its soil quality -- and then submit that back to the professor for grading.

PORTERSo there is -- there are all kinds of opportunities to think in different ways about mobile applications because these are things -- they're lightweight. They have lots of sensors on them. They know where they are. They know the temperature. They know the direction. There's a lot of things that are not present in your typical desktop. So I would encourage the caller to really look into that and push forward on it.

FISHERAnd, Adam Porter from the University of Maryland, Eric was talking earlier -- I'm sorry. Pete was talking earlier about the kinds of jobs that are out there. And it was a nice, long list, which is encouraging to people. On the other hand, it sounded a little bit technical. And so how difficult is it to prepare for those kinds of jobs? What kind of -- how extensive is the education that you need to qualify for those kinds of positions?

PORTEROkay. Well, in the computer field -- obviously, we have people who drop out of high school and become programmers. There's all kinds of different stories of the ways in which people learn to become programmers or learn to be good at their jobs. You know, as a college professor, I would suggest people look at undergraduate-level training, at least. Normally, that's a four-year program.

PORTERIt's going to require a little bit of math, a little bit of programming technology, other kinds of things like that. And so -- and I think one thing that's really important to understand is that being a good mobile -- to be a good mobile programmer, first and foremost, I think you need to be a good programmer.

PORTERYou need to understand your core concepts, your fundamentals because, you know, right now, there's a big focus on what are called native apps. These are apps that are programmed, you know, sort of directly in the libraries that are provided by Apple or Android or something like that. But we don't know in the future. There may be content delivered through the Web with HTML5.

PORTERThere's -- it's a very fluid and dynamic time right now. So people need to focus on the fundamentals, the patterns, the architectures, the programming languages, and then they'll be in a good position to go forward in the future.

FISHERWe will continue our conversation about mobile app development and find out what goes into creating an app after a short break. Stay tuned.

FISHERWelcome back. I'm Marc Fisher of The Washington Post, sitting in for Kojo Nnamdi. And we are talking on this Tech Tuesday about mobile app development. We are joined in studio by Adam Porter from the University of Maryland, Pete Erickson, founder of Disrupthaton and also founder of MoDevDC, a professional mobile developers organization.

FISHERAnd joining us by phone, John Poore from Onward Search, an Internet marketing staffing company, and, John Poore, tell us a little bit about how a business starts when they're looking to develop a mobile application. I mean, somebody like the caller we just had who has an idea, how does it get from that idea to being on my iPad?

POOREGenerally, what we see is, you know, the organization working with their -- generally, their product designer, product managers and really, you know, trying to dive into how the customer, their end customers or end users use their product or service. So I always like to use the example of -- you know, of the Chase Mobile folks, right? They built a really nice app that allows very basic banking.

POOREAnd so what -- you know, where it goes from there is essentially what -- really delving into what specifically do their end users want to use, not, you know, not the same desktop experience that they have. But what are the core features that they typically use? That information then typically goes into a user-experience cycle, where they're looking at, you know, different interactions.

POOREThey're looking at how the design should impact navigation, what that navigation should include. All the way along, you know, you're working with the development and content team to ensure that that user experience stays true to what they want to deliver to their end clients through release.

POOREAnd in that, of course, you've got, you know, folks doing quality assurance. You've got the developers. You've got the user experience folks, the information architects, working all in conjunction. And as it's released, obviously, you know, you're engaging in, you know, the marketing PR so that it's out there, it's seen, it's easy to be downloaded and that, you know, that it's getting engagement to their clients.

POOREAnd then, you know, from there, you generally see the product manager staying involved. Is it -- you know, is it providing the experience that their customers are looking for, their end users are looking for? And you generally see, you know, small product revisions or small app revisions to really support what, you know, the intended goals for the end user.

POOREVery, you know, very simplified view of that, but in terms of getting it built, it really is working right along with the product folks, user experience folks and developers to create an experience for the end users.

FISHERIf you have a mobile app experience you'd like to tell us about, give us a call at 1-800-433-8850. Eric in Del Mar, it's your turn.

ERICHey, guys. Interesting topic, really enjoy it. But I have a question. I'm not in the field at all. I've never been a part of the field at all, but I'm really interested in getting into it. And I have no idea exactly where to start. Any recommendations for me?

ERICKSONEric, what do you do currently?

ERICWhat's that?

ERICKSONWhat do you do currently? What's your current occupation?

ERICCurrently, I'm actually a delivery driver for an auto parts company. And I've been in the construction industry for the last 20 years. But I do have a lot of, you know, personal play enjoyment, as far as being on the computers. And, you know, so I do have basic knowledge of it, but not extensive.

ERICKSONWell, it's interesting to hear you say that because I happen to know that that space, the -- you know, the delivery space and anything that involves collection of information and delivery of information out to work sites is really experiencing a great transformation through mobile applications.

ERICKSONI mean, one thing I would recommend, you could apply your knowledge of delivery and marry up with a company that is involved in -- you know, in helping to transform a mobile space for construction and delivery. You know, there are all kinds of angles for you to get involved in the mobile space.

FISHERGreat. Thank you. Yeah, go ahead.

ERICWhere, actually, would I start with that, though? And this...

ERICKSONWell, why don't go ahead and join the meetup group at MovDevDC and contact me? And I can maybe help point you in some directions.

FISHERGreat. And, Adam, or -- yeah.

POOREYou know, Marc, if I can jump in there, I do think that there are some basic things that people could learn to -- you know, to get ready for mobile app dev without a lot of experience. And there are certainly enough resources out there. What we're seeing is that, you know, a big move towards WebKit. And I'm sure, at some level, Adam will bristle with this.

POOREBut WebKit is sort of the open Web standards where you're seeing a lot more of the apps being built towards, you know, HTML5 and JavaScript, which are, you know, in my opinion, I think they're a little easier to learn than getting through, you know, the standard Objective-C or, you know, standard Java library, which is what you typically see when native apps are built.

POOREYou're seeing a lot more support from that, from not just -- you, know, from the Google folks and from Apple, but you're also seeing support from the chip makers. In fact, Qualcomm has -- have said that they're actively supporting HTML5 so that you could make the browser the center of the mobile Internet experience.

POOREAnd those skills are -- you know, there's enough resources available out on the Web and through standard, you know, education channels that it doesn't -- you know, the cycle to learn basic, good coding in those areas is, in many ways, shortened over going through, you know, a full CS degree. And just so Adam doesn't disagree with me entirely, it still requires that you learn good programming principles.

POOREBut there are more resources available through books, through the Web and, you know, outside of a standard degree track.

FISHERSo -- great. And thank you, Eric, for the call. So, Adam Porter, how essential is it that someone enroll in actual courses at a real university to learn this stuff versus sitting at home and finding out what they can online? And what kind of interest are you seeing in classes for developing mobile apps?

PORTERSure. So, first of all, no bristling here. I think it's one of the great things about the Internet is that, you know, we can all be learners. We can be all lifetime learners. We don't have to go to university or go to some, you know, some cathedral where, you know, the high priest will tell us, you know, the secrets, right? So it's -- we can -- there are things on YouTube. There are tons of tutorials out there, great books.

PORTERThere's all kinds of things in the O'Reilly series and all other areas where if you don't know if you -- how fit you are for this field, this would be a great place to start and to look around and see -- you know, to see what opportunities are out there. How does it resonate with you? How do you feel about it? Also, to follow up on Peter's discussion earlier, there are a lot jobs in the mobile space that are not programming jobs.

PORTERSo there are many other aspects where people could be involved, too. They might get into looking at interaction design or some of the graphic design areas and things like that. You know, and I agree with John, that the WebKit and some of the basic Web developer tools that people are used to using on the desktop might be an easier place to start for a lot of people.

PORTERIn fact, you know, I wrestle with this as a professor when I'm teaching iPhone versus Android, you know, teaching Objective-C, teaching this Apple-specific tooling, things like that. I may lose one-fourth of my class just getting the students up to speed. So it's definitely -- there is a learning curve, and you do have to put your time in earlier.

PORTERBut there are so many resources out there on the Internet that you can kind of get a little taste first and see how you feel about it, learn slowly, play, and then if you feel like there is something more that you really want to get into, then, of course, I really think you should jump into it.

FISHERThe university stands ready, right?

PORTERSure. Exactly.

FISHERBut for the complete non-tech person who is -- you know, considers himself more of the creative kind and has an idea like the caller earlier, is that person good just for their idea? Does that then get sort of taken into the machine and developed and the creative person is finished with the process? Or are the creative people brought in and really become part of the development process, Pete?

ERICKSONWell, I would say that, you know, if you have an idea for an app that you want developed, you're going to have to own that idea from start to finish and seeing it through. You're going to have to become passionate about that idea. It is very hard work. It's a lot of management. You've got to team up with developers, designers, architects, other program management folks to get this completed.

ERICKSONI mean, it is a -- it's a serious undertaking to do an app. I would -- I'd recommend that if it is something you want to do, that you be prepared for a lot of long hours and the long haul. That said, I've watched this happen. I've watched the creator of -- and I was just talking with a creator of an idea this week, a guy named Ben Young, created the idea for an app called Nexercise.

ERICKSONI watched him, as part of MoDev community, find developers, designers and other folks. And now, they've got an app out there that's doing very well, and they've got a team of five people. Those are five jobs in this economy that were created through the creative means of the app development world.

FISHERAnd the person who came up with the idea, does he own a cut, a piece of that action? Or how does it work?

ERICKSONOh, absolutely. Well, this becomes a company. You know, it's just like any other startup. So, you know, founders, it's up to them to get good counsel. You need to -- you know, you probably need to find a good law firm to set up your company, to protect your IP. All the things that apply to starting any business apply to the world of apps. But, you know, it's a great area.

ERICKSONOne thing I would like to say relative to the education, there are some great programs cropping up for children. There's a program here in D.C., I just learned of, called Apps for Youth. And it's targeted to middle school children and about that age to get them involved in mobile apps.

ERICKSONSo, you know, if you're going out and getting your kid on a soccer team or a baseball team, get them involved in a program like Apps for Youth. And I think that, you know, they may find a great career path that they can get on for their life.

FISHERLet's hear from David in Columbia. David, it's your turn.

DAVIDGood afternoon. I just want to kind of comment on expanding the conversation a little bit around the creative side of things and whatnot. I happen to work for a company called Merkle Inc. in Columbia, Md., and we develop marketing programs around mobile application development and things like that.

DAVIDSo it's not just the application development, but it's the creative people that can come up with great marketing ideas that can be utilized by -- you know, by large companies. We recently did the earn more stripes program at T.G.I. Friday's, which is a mobile marketing and application. So you go into the store and you can text something -- go into the restaurant and you can text something.

DAVIDAnd you instantly become a member of their earn more stripes program, and, you know, you get a free dessert or a free appetizer, that type of thing. So it's building those types of loyalty programs and things like that as well.

FISHERJohn...

DAVIDAnd, you know, we're always looking for young talents and things like that in the local universities and whatnot. But, you know, people that have a business sense and people that are majoring in, you know, getting an MBA or, you know, undergraduate in business administration and things like that, those are great jobs in that area as well.

FISHERJohn Poore, what -- you work with a marketing company. What is the role of marketing in getting the word out about -- since we live in this sort of a blizzard of apps that are being developed at -- in every corner of cyberspace?

POOREYeah, you know, I think that you have to look -- it's not just getting the word out, Marc. I think you have to look at it as, you know, when you think about marketing, certainly, some of it is amplification, right? How do you get more people aware of the product that you have?

POOREBut in mobile, because you're seeing, you know, so much change in innovation as people come up with better ideas, as, you know, technologies changed, as the handsets themselves change, and, frankly, as, you know, as the tablets are entering the market, you're seeing, you know, not just the how do we get the word out, the PR, but how do we talk to our customers? How do we really understand what it is that they want from an application or from a service?

POOREOn top of that, how do we measure engagement, you know, analytics? If we think about, really, where the -- you know, where the next iteration of the Web as a whole is going, and largely, you know, our devices are Web-enabled and that -- and the Web becomes the experience that we have, whether it be through an app or through the browser, we need to understand -- you know, we need to be able to measure and understand what people's behaviors are.

POOREWe need to understand how to serve them the right kind of content. So, you know, I think where we're seeing a lot of growth in that space is looking at marketers who understand how to get, you know, the best organic search. You know, a little healthy (word?) there is something like, I believe, you know, currently it's about half of all local searches are performed on a mobile device.

POORESo for companies that need to see their product, you know, or their service seen, it's got to be optimized for mobile search, whether that be, you know, through location-based services or just through good, natural organic search or potentially through paid search. So you're seeing folks that are really specialists in those areas for mobile.

POOREAgain, you're seeing that need to be able to, you know, measure behaviors and turn that into conversions, whether that be conversions to clients or, you know, conversions to sales for a particular product that are -- however that may be viewed. And then you've got the products folks, the folks that are really looking at, what's the next generation?

POOREHow do we service, you know, our end clients? How do we service the clients or the, you know, the potential end users that we want to gain?

FISHERYou know, it's fascinating that, with the explosion in mobile app development, the fact remains that a good portion of the time when you are visiting a site or checking out a business, there is no app, there is no mobile. Their site has not been optimized for mobile. Is there still a big gap in terms of the number of businesses out there that just don't understand the need to be available on people's devices, Pete?

ERICKSONYeah, I think the gap is in having local retailers and other businesses figure out how to take advantage of the existing channels that have cropped up in mobile. How do you utilize Facebook and foursquare, Twitter and all the other apps that are out there to reach your customers? Because the -- it's incumbent now on businesses to be where their customers are. And that also opens up more job opportunities.

ERICKSONIt's helping businesses understand, okay, where do I need to be? A business may not need to develop their own app. In fact, I would recommend that a lot of businesses don't invest in developing their own app. They need to be on the apps that are out there. And that's a big challenge. That's over and above what they're already doing as a small business.

ERICKSONBut finding somebody that can help them navigate those waters and be a success is, I think, the definite call right now.

FISHERThat's Pete Erickson. He's founder and director of innovation at Disruptathon and founder of MoDevDC, a professional mobile developers organization. We have an email from Jonathan, saying that, "I work with a government agency that would love to help develop an app for public safety. Who would we even approach? What kind of cost would we be looking at? Can the guests provide any light or recommendations?" Adam Porter.

PORTERWell, that's -- yeah, that's a tough question. We have -- I get contacted all the time by people who are looking to prototype applications. So we have classes that we run, and we do projects. And so I'm always out there, looking to talk to people. We did some work with the folks at data.gov, so there is -- you know, this is -- there's a lot of open data set -- put out by the federal government, by state governments, local governments, things like that.

PORTERIntegrating those things into new creative apps is very interesting. I think maybe -- you know, maybe I'll toss over to Pete in terms of finding the right organization to help you build something.

ERICKSONThere are a lot of resources locally. This is a big growth area for companies, but there are companies that, you know, focus specifically on mobile applications for governments, companies like MobileMo, Rock Creek Strategic Marketing, Three Pillar Global. I know all these companies are helping government agencies, you know, get into the mobile space with applications. But the list just starts there.

FISHERWell, when we come back after a short break, we'll get into the question of what happens when American app developers seek to compete with those in India and China when you have developers in India earning $15 -- charging clients $15 an hour versus several times that amount here in the States. That's after a short break.

FISHERYou're listening to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show." I'm Marc Fisher, sitting in for Kojo. We'll be back in a moment. Stay with us.

FISHERWelcome back. I'm Marc Fisher of The Washington Post, sitting in for Kojo Nnamdi. We are talking on this Tech Tuesday about mobile app development, how mobile apps are developed and what new jobs are being created in this field -- a rare bright spot in the national economy. And we have a comment on our website by Jeff in Bethesda, saying, "I'm a 50-year-old IT person.

FISHER"My 25-year experience and background is in mainframe programming and systems analysis, mostly in the banking and financial sectors. I desperately want to make a slight career change and get into the mobile apps development area. What advice can you give me? What programming languages should I be studying? What development platforms are most popular?

FISHER"And how can I, as a 50-year-old, compete against the young guns coming out of college these days? Or should I not even try?" Adam Porter from University of Maryland.

PORTERWell, I would say you should surely try. I mean, the fact is that there are many, many more jobs open than there are people to fill them. So whatever age you are, there is -- it doesn't matter, right?

FISHERWe don't hear that too often these days.

PORTERWe have -- our graduates at the University of Maryland have jobs locked up before their senior year starts. And there are -- I think there is -- or I've seen numbers recently, but there are huge amounts of jobs that are open. They're waiting for people with skills to fill them. If you've got 25 years of computing experience, well, you know, maybe it'll take a little while to retool yourself, but it's still programming.

PORTERYou know, they're still the same basic concepts, and there are differences. But, you know, Jeff can learn those things. My suggestion is go to some of the big websites, developer.apple.com, developer.android.com. You may be interested in looking at JavaScript and HTML5. There are plenty of resources. You can take it at your own pace.

PORTERIf you want something a little more structured, there are night schools for adult education, continuing education programs. For example, University of Maryland University College has a number of courses related to Web technology and other things. So I think there is -- it's a burgeoning area with a lot of open capacity. So I wouldn't be afraid to dive on -- to dive in there.

FISHERAnd John Poore at Onward Search, has -- these jobs that are out there in our country, obviously, there's also a competition for talent in other countries in the world as -- since we live in this global society now. When clients are paying $15 an hour in India and getting charged $50 to $100 an hour here, aren't Americans at a huge disadvantage?

POOREYou know, I really don't think so in this case. You're seeing that movement interface happen so quickly, and there's such a desire to keep the talent in-house that, you know, we certainly know of organizations that have pushed out projects to other countries. But I will tell you -- and I, unfortunately, can't share the company name -- but we know an organization that shipped out five projects at about $5 million apiece offshore. They came back.

POOREUnfortunately, the -- you know, the development was not very good, and the company ended up spending, you know, double that to fix each of those apps in-house. More often than not, the reason that those -- you know, that those applications get shipped out is they -- there just is not enough talent to fulfill them locally. It's not necessarily out of a desire to be less expensive, although that plays into it.

POOREIt truly is just how much bandwidth there is, you know, to find the kind of talent to build the applications. So I don't -- you know, with the growth of the space overall and, again, the ancillary positions, it's not just about mobile application development. This is not something that I expect to see move, you know, wholesale to India, China and long term have impacts on U.S. developers.

FISHERAnd, Pete Erickson, are you seeing the competition from abroad having any impact on the kind of pay that people are getting in this field in our country?

ERICKSONActually, no. I think -- you know, I've watched a lot of folks spin cycles on this as well, as John was mentioning, you know, some bad experiences. But I think that those bad experiences are related to having the wrong kind of expectations relative to outsourcing. The outsourcing component should only be about 20 percent of your overall project.

ERICKSONSo if you're going to save some money on that 20 percent, I don't know, you know, how worth it that would be. But it can be done. And I think that, you know, we are at an age of global development. So if you're going to use outsourcing, I think it is not always a bad idea. But it needs to be a part of an overall strategy. It needs to be managed very well and very closely. So I've seen bad experiences.

ERICKSONI've also seen good experiences. And the companies now that are offering outsources -- outsourcing overseas are having stronger and stronger presence in the U.S. with more quality control relative to that outsourcing.

FISHERLet's go to Chaz (sp?) in Washington, a question about security. Chaz, it's your turn.

CHAZYeah, how are you doing? Thanks for taking the call. As a consumer, what risks do I run in downloading apps, in terms of security, security of (word?) ID, and how prone are these for hacking and -- or what measures are there being taken, you know, to stop this or to make the apps secure for consumers' use?

FISHERAdam Porter.

PORTERYeah, oh, sure. So -- no, I -- and so security is an issue. The -- and a lot of people are spending a lot of time thinking very hard about this. You know, you -- just like any website, you should be -- I mean, I don't click through emails, right? I don't -- there's a lot of the basic things I do, whether I'm on a laptop or on a mobile phone that I, you know, don't do. I'm very careful about, you know, where I do my banking and things like that.

PORTERSo I don't think that's necessarily limited to mobile. Those are same security concerns you have on the desktop as well. But people are spending a lot of time working on this, and there are a lot of good technologies for that. But, just like anything, if you're concerned about particular pieces of information, you should, you know, maybe make a phone call instead of using the app, some of those basic ideas. You know, don't give out your information

FISHERPete Erickson...

ERICKSONI'd just like to add that, you know, Chaz brings up a great example of an area of growth in the mobile sector. You know, security is another area where there are many, many jobs available. So if you've got a security background relative to the Web technologies, then, you know, the mobile space is a great place for you to go. Or if you're looking for a job growth area, security is going to be it.

FISHERAnd, I guess, with all of the new financial products available through mobile apps, allowing you to deposit checks via phone, that it certainly opens up an enormous opportunity for the criminals in that part of the world.

ERICKSONWell, you know, there's always going to be that element. But I'd say that the -- you know, the opportunity for, you know, for...

FISHERFor security.

ERICKSON...a great career, jobs, to get involved, you know, protecting our financial data, protecting our health care data, protecting other types of data, consumer data, is -- you know, it's a growth field. It is an industry. It's unfortunate we have to have that industry. But it's going to part of this process as well.

FISHERLet's go to...

PORTERIf I could...

FISHERYeah. Go ahead.

PORTER...just jump in there to amplify on what Pete said. I've been doing a lot of speaking with people in government -- various government agencies. And so what's happening is people are bringing their phones to work. And this is -- well, not just government agencies, but the companies in general. People are bringing their phones to work. They want to be able to use their mobile devices in carrying out their jobs.

PORTERBut companies are really sitting there and saying, well, what happened? How do we now protect our data? How do we, you know, carry through the same security processes that we had before? So again, just to amplify with Pete, this is a -- this is something that's going to happen, and there are going to be, again, big jobs, opportunities in that area because, you know, there's just a shift in how we expect to do our work.

FISHERWe've seen that with the relative caution that the federal government has had in adopting iPads, where, you know, they've basically been sticking to the BlackBerry because of those security concerns. All right. Let's go to Aaron in Alexandria. Aaron, you're on the air.

AARONHi there. I want to suggest for people who have app ideas that the number one thing they can do is draw them out and draw them very thoroughly. I find that every time I do that, it really helps me figure out whether I actually have a decent idea or not. And that way, when they're waiting to -- trying to learn the skills they need for development and to meet the right people, they can at least really hone that idea simply by drawing and prototyping.

FISHERAnd so -- you mean literally drawing it out on a piece -- big piece of paper or something?

AARONExactly. And draw out every single screen and every interaction, and you'll start to really hone your concept and see if you've really got something.

FISHERAdam Porter?

PORTERYeah, well, there are -- on the Web, you can get Photoshop templates and things like that that will show the actual form factors of the phones, the buttons, the standard icons and things like that. So I think the caller has a great idea. You can really lay this out and really ask yourself, how are you going to move from one screen to another? How is the user really going to get the data they want or input the data?

PORTERAnd you may realize that it's not going to work the way you thought because, again, a mobile device has a much smaller screen than your traditional, you know, laptop. And it requires that you reconstruct and re-architect your applications, so they really are usable. And that's something that, I think, really distinguishes bad apps from good apps in a lot of cases.

FISHERGreat. Let's go to another call. It's Bob in College Park. It's your turn, Bob.

BOBHi. I just -- earlier, someone asked, you know, what -- how does this older guy, you know, who's maybe not as quick and nimble and up to speed on things compete? And I'm sort of, I guess, like, interested in that topic 'cause I think that the answer may be not to think about it as competing. I think, you know, the thing that sort of drives why people get hired by these cutting-edge start-up companies a lot of times is what they've done.

BOBAnd, I think, rather than sort of, like, focus on, like, trying to learn a bunch of skills and getting a bunch of credentials or taking a bunch of classes is to pick some sort of, like, project. Build your own app and make that sort of your showcase. And, you know, I think, you know, Pete's got a great group that sort of, like, caters to that with the -- he's got in Tysons Corner.

BOBBut, you know, it's not something that you've got to sort of compete directly because there are tons of people looking for people who can build things. And it's...

FISHERI think we lost Bob there. Okay.

POOREHey, Mark, I think -- you know, this is John.

FISHERJohn. Go ahead.

POOREI think that he -- I think the caller brings up a really good point. A number of the folks that we place when it comes to mobile app development, they are people that have really thought about, how do I solve a problem? And then they take the -- you know, they take that sort of stance and say, okay, now, you know, if I'm going to solve a problem mobilely, (sp?) what does that look like?

POOREAnd an example I'll give you is we recently put to work a mobile app developer who is a concert attendee. And, you know, he was looking at how to really manage what was happening at a -- I think it was a three- or four-day concert. You know, what was where? So he built an app that, you know, people could download -- there was no cost to it -- that really showed, you know, okay, this day, this band is playing at this stage and at this location.

POOREIt became one of the top, oh, I think, 10 or 12 apps downloaded in the iTunes store for the period of time that the concert was going on. And where that translated is, when he was looking for work and we were looking to find work for him, the number one thing that companies asked for was, tell me a little bit about this guy, and then send me a link to his application in the iTunes store.

POORESo, you know, we can keep delving into the, you know, which skill sets does it take. But I think, ideally, what you're looking at, you know, if you really want to get into the space is, yes, get the basic knowledge, whether that be learning, you know -- whether that be going back to school and, you know, getting that degree and really learning how to develop in native, or going towards, you know, the more HTML5, JavaScript CSS solutions.

POOREBut the big thing is solve a problem. Don't be afraid to build something. You're going to find out how well you're doing, and you're going to learn new skills just from putting it out there and seeing how people rate the app, seeing how often it's downloaded. And that's going to be invaluable experience to going, you know, that next step.

FISHERWell, we've gone over a number of exciting possibilities in this hour. But to get people's creative juices flowing even more in our final minute or so, if each of you could just give me your -- the coolest app you've seen lately, something that will just get people thinking creatively. John, you want to go first?

POOREYou know, I think, it really just depends on what resonates with you. I tend to be pretty geeky, so I'm a big fan of the Yelp augmented reality app, you know, having that here in San Francisco, being able to have my camera really dictate what's going on around me. I just think that the technologies involved with that and some of the opportunities that it gives are pretty exciting.

FISHERGreat. And Pete Erickson.

ERICKSONWell, my 8-month-old daughter was using a rattle last night that we bought on the iTunes app store.

FISHERWow.

ERICKSONSo -- and it was really amazing to see...

FISHERAnd what is its advantage over an actual rattle?

ERICKSONJust sights and sounds like you can't believe. The creativity was amazing. But to watch her face and play with that was really a lot of joy as a parent.

FISHERThat's great. Adam Porter.

PORTERWell, so I had a student from one of my old iPhone classes who actually joined a contest that Peter's group put on. And he came up with a -- him and the people he works with came up with an app called Airindipity (sp?). So the idea is you write a note or a thought or an idea on your phone, and then you launch it like an airplane, right? So you just move your phone, and it takes off.

PORTERSo, virtually, you make a virtual paper airplane. You fly it off, and it travels around the world. And as it comes in contact with other people with the app, they can see your airplane. They can say that, you know, they like it, dislike it or whatever and things like that. So I think it's very creative.

FISHERWell, just be careful not to throw your iPad out the window. Thanks very much to John Poore, Pete Erickson and Adam Porter. I'm Marc Fisher, sitting in on "The Kojo Nnamdi Show." Thanks very much for listening.