MR. KOJO NNAMDI88.5 American University in Washington, welcome to the "Politics Hour," starring Tom Sherwood. I'm Kojo Nnamdi. Tom Sherwood is our resident analyst. He's an NBC full reporter and a columnist for The Current Newspaper, who is always prepared. He was the only person who was prepared for the earthquake on Tuesday. You knew it was coming didn't you?

MR. TOM SHERWOODYou know, like the animals in the zoo, I was having some odd feelings, you know. I'd only drank half a cup of coffee that morning. I thought something's up, if I'm already frazzled and the hurricane's not even here.

NNAMDIExactly right. The hurricane is on its way, supposed to strike this area sometime Saturday evening or Saturday night. Joining us also in studio, who we would normally introduce later, but since he is in a hurricane threatened zone, we thought he might want to join this part of the conversation, Governor Tim Kaine. He's a Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate. He's running for the seat currently occupied by Virginia's Jim Webb. He's, of course, the former governor of Virginia. Governor Kaine, good to see you. thank you for joining us.

GOVERNOR TIM KAINEKojo and Tom, great to be with you. Yes, I look forward to talking about politics, but also about preparedness.

NNAMDITom, what are we expecting with this hurricane here? We're not exactly sure are we?

SHERWOODWell, you were talking yesterday to Tom Kierein from our station. He comes in every morning. You know, people say the weather people always exaggerate to get viewers. They hype this and they hype that.

NNAMDINot Tom.

SHERWOODWhen he comes in to talk to us in the morning, he has almost a poker face because he's just telling you what's going on. And he says, well, we know parts of the storm is 700 miles wide and hurricane force winds, which are dangerous, are at least 300. He starts telling you, you start thinking I better have that tap water put in the bathtub in case I need to flush my commode. So he says the danger is quite real all along the East Coast from North Carolina up and he says he thinks New York may be worse off than any of us.

NNAMDIGovernor Kaine is a former chief executive. How do you deal with a situation like this?

KAINEWell, you know, you do all the advance preparation you can. You do a state of emergency declaration early, which I think Governor McDonnell has done. What that enables you to do is start to move assets, mobilize the Virginia Guard to come help in the areas likely to be affected. Then you have to make decisions about things like evacuations. During the time I was governor, we put some infrastructure in place on Interstate 64 so that we could run both sets of lanes westbound to evacuate if we need to.

KAINEBut the decision to give an evacuation order is kind of a tricky one. You watch the path, you have to give it sufficiently in advance to enable folks to leave. And if you, you know, if you do that, you know, you're encouraging people to go, but you'll never have everybody comply. A lot of -- there's some thrill-seekers and then there's also some folks who really don't have the access and really can't leave and so you have to have shelter beds and other infrastructure in place to take care of them.

SHERWOODAnd if you judge wrong, the condemnation, why didn't you, why did you? I mean, you can't win that battle, you just have to do what you think is right.

NNAMDISpeaking of...

KAINEAnd the judging wrong is a real problem because if you do an evacuation order and it doesn't work out, then the next time you do one, people say, I don't need to do it and then that would be the bad storm. So those are tough calls to make.

NNAMDITom Sherwood, how did we do after the earthquake, in terms of people in the city who needed to get out? We remember the snowstorm we had earlier this year that became really crazy for everybody involved. How'd we do on Tuesday?

SHERWOODWell, I'm sorry the governor's here because I could talk about this nonstop for 55 minutes. This city, this region, Jim Dinegar, the broad of trade president, who watches the entire region, said politely to me on the camera, this was a missed opportunity. I wished I could've put on the air what he said to me before I turned the camera on. Dave Snider, who's from Falls Church, who's very active in council of government, who has tried to work on emergency plans since 9/11, said this was a missed opportunity.

SHERWOODThat people run out into the streets and then they run to their cars and then they go nowhere because you can't get over the bridges and there's no lane changes, there are no police, there are no traffic control aids. It's chaotic and it's -- if I may say so, pretty ridiculous.

NNAMDISo we'll have to see if we...

SHERWOODAnd I feel too strongly about it.

NNAMDI…we'll have to see if we do. And then, of course, there's always Pepco. This morning millions of Pepco customers throughout the region received an automated robo-call from Pepco warning of widespread and continued outages resulting from hurricane Irene. They also encourage people to stay tuned to pepco.com even if they don't have power.

PEPCO ANNOUNCERThis is an important message from Pepco. With the approach of Hurricane Irene, Pepco is preparing for potential widespread and likely power outages across its service area this weekend. The company has mobilized expansive internal and out-of-state resources to be able to repair equipment and restore power as quickly and safely as possible. Due to the magnitude of this storm, the company expects the restoration effort to extend over multiple days. Just as Pepco is preparing for Hurricane Irene, we strongly urge you to prepare now for the very real possibility of power outages this weekend. For steps you can take, go to pepco.com or tune in to local newscasts. Thank you.

NNAMDINeedless to say, that was the subject of a lot of tweets. However, when "Politics Hour" producer, Michael Martinez, received his robo-call from Pepco this morning, apparently it sounded like this. Oh, we'll get to that sound later on in the broadcast.

SHERWOODWell, Pepco's not the only one that messes up. Let's be fair here.

NNAMDIYes, let's put on Martinez. Okay, here it is now.

NNAMDIPepco can rock, too. Okay.

SHERWOODRio Pepco's been on the air endlessly, particularly, on TOP radio saying they're making a lot of progress, trying to do well. I mean, this could be a real setback if this thing hits hard.

NNAMDIPepco's Andre France is their social media representative says that Pepco is not trying to build up anxiety. If you tune into just about all of the news media in the Mid-Atlantic region, reports are categorizing Hurricane Irene as possibly a historical storm. Pepco's been preparing all week for it. He says Pepco not only wants to stay in line with media reports, but also to empower customers with as much beneficial information as possible. To summarize it, Pepco wanted to reiterate to our customers that the storm is nearing its surface territory and the impact may result in outages for some customers.

SHERWOODDo you have a battery-powered television, radio or anything like that?

NNAMDINo, but I do have some battery-powered devices that I may need during the course of the storm. Like my cell phone.

SHERWOODYou have a battery-powered -- well, of course, it has a battery, but do you have a source to plug it in if you lose power?

NNAMDINo, I don't. I have several (word?)

SHERWOODWell, you know, with the earthquake, what we discovered is a cell phone is no good no matter how strong your battery is. In the earthquake, people went on the cell phones and the system fell apart.

NNAMDIThe bottom line, try to be as prepared as you possibly can for this. Make sure you have as much water as possible. Make sure you have...

SHERWOODI went to Rodman's Wine Department two days ago. They have a very good white wine for 6-99.

NNAMDIWell, for some people, wine is wine and for other people water can be turned to wine. Onto the politics program with Governor Tim Kaine. You have never lost a race and the last time we talked with you when you were still the governor, the Virginia Democratic Party was on a bit of a winning streak. You controlled the Governor's Mansion, both U.S. Senate seats. You went so far as to say, old Virginia's dead.

NNAMDIBut since then, Virginian Republicans seem to have run the table. They've swept statewide races for governor, lieutenant governor, attorney general. How do you explain your own party's falling out of favor with Virginia voters and what do you intend to do about it?

KAINEKojo, I'd describe it differently. I would say we've gone from a reliably red state to one of the main battleground states in American politics. We've come out of the political shadows into the spotlight and as I tell democrats everywhere I go, we're not a blue state and it's great to be a battleground state, but just stock up on the Maalox. Because if you're a battleground, you're going to have good years and bad years. We had four great years in a row, '05 through '08. We had two tough years in '09 and '10.

KAINEWe had primaries earlier this week to set up the state legislative races that will come in November where there will be a big battle, especially for dems, to hold onto the state senate and I think we're gonna do well this year. And, obviously, next year, Virginia will be in the spotlight as a main presidential battleground. So I have a sense of perspective, having moved from reliably red to even, but we're not going to win every year. We'll win some and we'll lose some.

SHERWOODIf President Obama -- can you win the senate seat without President Obama winning in Virginia?

KAINEI can, but I expect that he is going to win and I'm gonna win, too. Virginia voters are notoriously independent so as most listeners know, we don't register biparty in Virginia. People may self-identify one way or the other, but we are notorious ticket splitters. But certainly, the president doing well is important to me and me doing well is important to the presidential race in Virginia.

NNAMDI800-433-8850. We're talking with Tim Kaine. He's a democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate, running for the seat currently occupied by Virginia's Jim Webb. He's the former governor of Virginia. You can call us at 800-433-8850 if you have questions or comments for Governor Kaine. You can also go to our website, kojoshow.org, join the conversation there. Send us a tweet @kojoshow or e-mail to kojo@wamu.org.

NNAMDIWe should mention that you have a primary to get through first. What's your approach for this stage of the campaign?

KAINEThere are two candidates who have said that they're going to run in the primary against me, Kojo. We have a fairly elevated requirement about how to get on a ballot in Virginia with petitions and signatures that don't kick in 'til later in the year, certainly after the legislative races in November so we'll ultimately see who's on the ballot. But I'm very focused on the general election. I believe the democratic primary electorate in Virginia, they know me, they know what they think of me.

KAINEI'm out working all the time doing the campaign essentially full time, other than teaching at the University of Richmond on Mondays and so I'm focused on the general election and making sure that I continue to stay on the path that is...

NNAMDIYou do have a primary challenger, Courtney Lynch, a political newcomer announced her candidacy earlier this month. We'll probably have her on, on a later broadcast. But one of the complaints you hear most often about the Congress that you aspire to join is about gridlock...

KAINEYeah, absolutely.

NNAMDI...partisanship, now more than ever after that debt ceiling debate.

KAINEAbsolutely.

NNAMDIYou know a thing or two about gridlock from your time in Richmond a place that's made passing a transportation bill impossible for democratic and republican governors alike. How do you think your experiences in Richmond will translate to what you would face on Capitol Hill when it comes to partisanship.

KAINEAbsolutely, Kojo. Well, look, I was the mayor of the city of Richmond, very diverse city, where I had to work and make our community work together. And we did a good job. And then, as governor, there were things that were difficult to do, but we would disagree on transportation today and pass the biggest bond package to advance higher ed tomorrow. And we would disagree on nonpartisan redistricting today and pass a ban on smoking in restaurants and bars tomorrow.

KAINEI think my experience in working with two republican houses my first two years and then one of each my second two, is exactly the kind of thing that will help me in Washington. I also think my campaign messages are pretty simple. Virginia -- America has challenges. Virginia has answers. The arc of Virginia in our economy and in our fiscal responsibility tradition and in our ability to find common ground, both in politics, but also in Virginia communities is something that we ought to take to Washington. And that's my campaign.

SHERWOODVirtually, every president, whether republican or democratic, says, I can work in Washington. I can help calm the waters, reach compromise, get things done. We've seen how that's worked out for people. But it does seem -- and even though in American politics people tend to forget the viciousness of American politics...

KAINEThroughout the ages.

SHERWOOD….throughout -- for the 200 plus, whatever the years it is, but there is a certain coarseness now, given the...

KAINEThere is.

SHERWOOD...internet, the tweeting. If you say something stupid right here today, you know, I'll tweet it before the show's over. And then, people will be condemning you...

KAINEVery likely (word?)

SHERWOOD...and making fun of you. But it is kind of a high-wire act where there's no news cycle. It's minute to minute now, as opposed to the evening shows or even the e-mails and those types of things, websites even. It's now how do you run a campaign in the Twitter field?

KAINEWell, you know, to two aspects. I mean, you have to -- it's kinda like governing really, campaigning. You have to set up a plan and have a message and then kinda stick to it. And that doesn't mean you can't adjust based on the daily news. But if you're changing your direction every day based on the latest news cycle, you're going to lose. And if you're governing and you're switching your priorities every day, you're not going to be effective.

KAINEAnd so, you know, the way to run a campaign is just to tell folks, you know, here are my basic values. Here's why I'm running. And if they want that direction, they'll pick you and you have to be willing to lay it on the line. If they want another direction, they won't. I do think, on this common ground issue, there is a coarseness, but I try never to make anything personal. If I disagree with somebody on an idea, I'll make it about the idea and not disagree with them

KAINEThink I'm going to have a good campaign likely with George Allen. I know George very well. You know, we get along fine. It's not going to be about personalities. It's going to be about issues. And I think Virginians expect that and we'll have a lot of good to talk about, but we don't have to make it personal.

SHERWOODIs Mr. Cantor staying on the -- the Republican, is he staying on the polite side of politics?

KAINEWell, I don't have a -- I really don't have much of a challenge with Eric on the politeness and civility side. I mean, I don't like some of -- you know, he and I would disagree on some issues. And then, in some areas, like in the closing when we're really trying to find a solution to America's budget challenges, you know, backing away from a negotiating table with the vice president, you can't walk away from a job like this. It's that important. So I would disagree with some of his negotiating tactics, but I've known Eric for a long time. I don't have any challenges with him on the civility side.

NNAMDIWell, since -- oh, go ahead, Tom.

SHERWOODI mean, I could just ask a lot of questions here.

NNAMDIWell, since you brought up Eric Cantor, he told his republican colleagues in the House, we cannot let people use this -- meaning the fact that the S&P downgrade -- we cannot yet let people use this to pressure us on tax increases. What does that tell you about the republican position and how do you think your party should be engaging with the republicans now that they're in this special super committee?

KAINEWell, we have to. Look, the right answer to our nation's deficit and economy have to be looked at together. You can't just solve the deficit without thinking about the need for continued economic growth. And the right answer is democrats -- to find common ground, democrats will have to give on some things they don't want to give, but republicans will as well.

KAINEWe have to be able to find meaningful reform to entitlement programs. I'm a real fan of one. On the Medicare side, we never should have agreed in Medicare Part D that the U.S. government couldn't negotiate for prescription drug prices because we cover 47 million people with Medicare. We ought to get a discount. That would be a Medicare reform that would save the federal government money and save citizens money.

KAINEAt the same time, republicans have to be willing to negotiate and give on the tax and revenue side. And give you one great example. It was republicans under President Bush -- George Allen voted for it -- who passed the tax cuts and made them temporary. They made them temporary for one reason only, which is if they were permanent, they were going to mess up the deficit. Well, they've hurt the deficit and they ought to be honest about it. And at least at the top end, for wealthiest Americans, they need to let those tax cuts expire before they start to slash other programs. That's just being honest with what their original vote was.

SHERWOODCan we...

NNAMDIAnd what if they simply refuse to do that? What if they say, this is -- ending the tax cuts is, in fact, a tax increase. We're not going to, which is what...

KAINEWell...

NNAMDI...they essentially said (unintelligible) .

KAINE...Kojo, the interesting thing about this one is if everybody does nothing, the tax cuts do actually expire. So there has to be some affirmative action to continue them into 2013. I think the right strategy for dealing with our economy is three pieces. You've got to make targeted cuts. I made more cuts in the Virginia budget than anybody who's ever been governor of Virginia. I know how to do it. You got to find tax reforms to close loopholes, take away unnecessary subsidies and let these tax cuts expire at the top end.

KAINEAnd then, third, you've got to continue to make investments in infrastructure. You know, when I was governor, it was tough to get a bill through on transportation, but we got railed to Dulles, we got hotlines on the Beltway, we got light rail in Norfolk, expanded Amtrak service. We've got to continue to invest even in a tough time, especially in a tough time, to grow the economy.

SHERWOODWell, before your election, jobs is the major issue.

KAINEYes.

SHERWOODWhat is the job situation in Virginia? It's far better than many other states.

KAINEYes.

SHERWOODBut this fall, the super committee of 12 has got to come forward. The president now says he'll have -- hope not just another speech, but he'll actually have a really hardcore idea about jobs. What do you see in the near future that you think will both help the country with this 12-member committee and the president and also help you win the election next year by getting the economy to move a little faster?

KAINEYeah. Well, the Virginia economy is better off, you know. We were always about three points less than the national average. During the time I was governor we were always -- had an unemployment rate better than the national average. We were the best state for business in America all four years I was governor. I attracted major companies to move to Virginia even in the worst recession since the 1930s. So we're fortunate that way, and I think we have some lessons.

KAINESo the Virginia economy wasn't great 30 years ago, but it's one of the most dynamic in the United States now, largely because of our education system. What we have done to expand from pre-K to post-grad and workforce development has made Virginia a talent state where we're attracting talent from around the nation and around the world. I hope part of the president's economic message -- I think some of it will be about things that, you know, they've already signaled, the extending the payroll tax reduction to help people at the lower end, that would be very important, but...

SHERWOODMaybe some mortgage relief or something?

KAINECertainly things in the housing market. Very important to get the housing market -- help it. But I also think the two components of infrastructure investments and educational investments, those are the long term things that we've got to do to grow the economy.

NNAMDIGentlemen, don your headphones. We have to go to the telephones. We'll start with Don in Woodbridge, Va. Don, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

KAINEHey, Don.

DONHey, Kojo. Hey, Governor Kaine. Big fan, always have been and I supported you when you ran for governor in Virginia and I'll continue to support you.

KAINEThank you, friend.

DONHey, just wanted to ask you real quickly, and this is kind of off topic, but what are your thoughts of this -- of Rick Perry, in terms of actually being a frontrunner in the republican nomination for president and his chances in 2012?

KAINEI think...

NNAMDIPut on your analyst hat.

KAINEI will.

SHERWOODThis is not off topic, incidentally.

NNAMDIOr your Democratic -- former democratic national committee chairman hat.

KAINEWell, although I will say -- I will say to Don and everybody, my ability to predict what the other party will do has always been very weak. My sense about Governor Perry is that I think he's far too polarizing a figure to bring America together to try to find common ground on the issues that we need to find. And I think that would -- even beyond how I would think nationally, just what I know about the Virginia electorate, I think that, you know, he would certainly have supporters and he'd have some strong supporters. But I think his, you know, flirting with ideas of secession, you know, throwing around that kinda language, that's not going to play very well with Virginians, especially Virginia independents.

SHERWOODI have to tell you, I'm in the media so you might be surprised I have some liberal friends and they've just been having a field day on Facebook and other places attacking Perry as this dolt from Texas. And I just went on Facebook and I said, I'd like to remind all you guys, whoever else, and there was a guy named Ronald Regan who came out of California who was seen as a dolt by the democrats, who was treated as a dolt. Laughed at by the things he said, the mistakes he made, the awkwardness of what he might do and he had a fairly successful time.

KAINEYeah, and, well, look, and I'm never -- absolutely.

SHERWOODIt's a danger for some of the -- not you, but some of the democrats downplaying the opposition, which could be pretty tough.

KAINEYeah, you always have to look at the opposition's strengths and Rick Perry's got some very strong supporters.

SHERWOODGot good hair.

KAINEYep, there you are. I wish I had it. I mean, he's got some very strong supporters. But again, as I look at his governing style, I think the -- there's a divisiveness to the way he has governed. And then, you know, I think his record would be scrutinized. Boy, I'd put the Virginia economy up against Texas' any day in unemployment, in median income, in the education outcomes and the percentage of our population that has healthcare versus not. I don't think the Texas model is one that the nation is going to grab onto and say we want to be more like Texas.

NNAMDIDon, thank you very much for your call. Our guest is Tim Kaine. He's a democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate, running for the seat currently occupied by Jim Webb. He's the former governor of Virginia. And speaking of divisive issues, abortion is certainly one such. Washington Post reporting yesterday that Virginia health officials are planning to release draft emergency regulations for abortion clinics as soon as today. And reproductive health activists say those regulations could impose strict physical staffing and equipment requirements that could force many of the state clinics to close. I know personally you are a Catholic, but how do you feel about this issue?

KAINEKojo, I am a Catholic and I think that abortion is an important moral issue and we should talk about it morally. But we shouldn't try to criminalize the decisions of women or their healthcare providers. I know about this effort. There was this effort underway when I was governor and the proponents of it are admittedly trying to overturn Roe vs. Wade by other means to make it virtually impossible for a woman to make that choice to terminate a pregnancy and have an abortion in Virginia.

KAINEI oppose it. I think they ought to just be honest about their intentions. And their effort to do this is wrong, to overturn Roe v. Wade sub-rosa. Also, given the issues that Virginians care about now, the economy and jobs, spending a lot of time on these sorts of social crusades, I think, is counterproductive and it's not in the interest of Virginians.

NNAMDIHere is Annabelle in Alexandria, Va. Annabelle, your turn.

ANNABELLEThank you. Hi, Governor Kaine.

KAINEHey, Annabelle.

ANNABELLEHow are you?

KAINEGreat.

ANNABELLEI'm real good. Listen, real quick. There was a very interesting piece in USA Today with Bob Beckel and Cal Thomas regarding the budget. And what the republicans and democrats must do is change their thinking and get into the 22nd Century. What will you do -- specifically what things will you do -- I know -- you know, I know you, you know me. I don't want a political answer -- to address entitlement, to address Medicare, Medicaid. I am now on Medicare. I am not a federal retiree, but these are very important budget issues that must be addressed that neither party is going to do. What...

KAINESure. I'll say three and I will say this, Annabelle, that you can't talk about the deficit without also talking about the need for continued economic growth. You got to put them together. You got to do three things. You have to make significant targeted cuts. I made more cuts than anybody who's ever been governor of Virginia, billions of dollars of cuts. I didn't do it across the board. I did it targeted line items because everything's not worth everything else.

KAINEMedicare, I used an example earlier. We insure 47 million people -- cover 47 million people through Medicare. The Medicare Part D prescription drug benefit does not allow the government to negotiate with pharmaceutical companies to bring down pharmaceutical pricing. We could save billions of dollars for seniors and for the government if we would do that. So there's an entitlement reform.

KAINESecond, we need tax reform. What we need to do is we need to take away unnecessary tax subsidies to ethanol, to oil companies. We need to take away loopholes that allow major U.S. companies to pay no taxes in often -- in instances or very low taxes. And finally, on the Bush tax cuts, we need to let them expire, as planned, at the top end. Because then, if you do that, you will have made cuts that will have affected low and middle income people and you would've had the taxes expiring in a way that everybody will end up having to contribute to dealing with our nation's fiscal challenges.

KAINEFinally, you have to make investments to grow the economy. That's the best anti-deficit strategy and education and infrastructure investments are the best kind to make.

SHERWOODI want to go back briefly to the super committee of 12 because the gun-to-the-head committee, as I understand it, is that if these agreements are not reached, if something's not reached, the military spending will take an unprecedented hit. And, of course...

KAINEAnd it would be dangerous to our security and to Virginia's economy.

SHERWOODI was going to say, apart from the security of the nation, Virginia, whether it's Norfolk or whether it's northern Virginia, whether it's actual military people or contractors or whoever, it is a substantial portion of the Virginia economy.

KAINEWell, and, Tom, that prospect is frightening. The prospect that we would weaken our national security because elected leaders in congress could not sit around a table and reach an agreement with each side giving a little bit is a frightening one. And those are the high stakes that I think should motivate the super committee to actually do their job and find compromise.

SHERWOODAnd before Thanksgiving, is that right? Is that the target deadline?

KAINEMy sense is it's right ...

SHERWOODIt's something like...

KAINE...the committee has to report by Thanksgiving or shortly thereafter and then Congress has to act by year end.

SHERWOODRight into a presidential race.

KAINEWell, it'll make playing the positions of the two sides. You know, my sense from talking to members of Congress is I know an awful lot of democrats who will definitely entertain entitlement reforms, but they want the other side to also entertain just being honest with people and letting the tax cuts they made temporary actually expire on the wealthy. We'll see who is willing to compromise to find common ground.

NNAMDIWhat do you say to people who say, look, I may not be living in Virginia and I am of the opinion that there's a great deal of fat in the defense budget. If we do some cutting in the defense budget, it does not necessarily compromise national security.

KAINEKojo, I would agree with them and I think we do need to cut and we will. For example, as we drawdown out of Iraq and Afghanistan, we're going to reduce force strength and we'll cut. There's, I think, too many bases overseas in places -- you know, you had numerous bases in Germany when the Soviet Union was an enemy. Russia really isn't an enemy now and there's certainly opportunities there. But -- and technology can leverage savings as well. You know, the unmanned drones, carriers we're building now use far fewer sailors than the Nimitz Class carriers. So there's other ways to save.

KAINEBut if the idea is, well, Congress can't reach an agreement so we'll just massively cut defense spending, that would be counter to the nation's security interests. And members of Congress ought to do their job and find common ground.

NNAMDIOn to Andrew in Alexandria, Va. Andrew, your turn.

KAINEHey, Andrew.

ANDREWHey, over the course of this program, it's actually made it considerably harder to dislike you, even (unintelligible) Mr. Kaine.

KAINEOh, well, I guess that's a compliment. I thank you, Andrew.

ANDREWYeah, well, I used to work in the service industry and we all knew it was coming 'cause it happened in New York. You -- correct me if I'm wrong, you were the governor that passed the anti-smoking ban in restaurants...

KAINEThat's right, yep.

ANDREW...diners and bars. That ended up leading -- and this has actually just come -- you can pull up the state records on just how much tax revenue is actually pulled in from these places, various different reports, that led to close to 15 to 20 percent reduction in profits and just people going to diners, bars and all those places literally almost overnight. I think the timeframe was around six months. And that hurt that industry in Virginia ridiculously (unintelligible) ...

NNAMDIAndrew, are you saying that you think that smoking ban should be overturned?

ANDREWNo, no, no, no. It's not necessary to do that 'cause goodness knows we hate smokers. But the thing is, you're going to be running for Senate and I'd like to hope that, you know, you hope to do a lot of big things on the Hill. But in such -- 'cause it was 2008 as I recall...

KAINEIt was in...

ANDREW...when all that stuff...

KAINE...it was in February of 2009 that the legislature...

NNAMDIYou got to get to the point, Andrew. We don't have a lot of time.

ANDREWOh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. The point is, that indeed was a health concern, but when a time when the economy wasn't doing so great, how could you really stand to hurt the economy so bad over such a simple healthcare issue.

KAINESure. Oh, I'm glad to talk about that. I don't think it's led to any reduction in business for restaurants and bars in Virginia or anywhere else. One bit of evidence is these smoking bans have been put in place by numerous states and cities and I'm not aware of one being put in place and then being retracted. I talk to restaurant owners all over the Commonwealth who thanked me for doing it. The restaurant owners around the Commonwealth were heavily involved in the effort.

KAINEThat many wanted to do it, but they felt like if they did it and the one across the street didn't, they'd be hurt. The uniform rule was largely supported by folks in the industry. And I actually think it's worked out pretty well without affecting income at all. And on the health side, look, we regulate whether people in kitchens wear hairnets in restaurants. Why would we allow smoking in restaurants that has been demonstrated to elevate lung cancer risk of both patrons and restaurant employees by 30 to 50 percent in some instances? So that's something I’m very proud of and I think it's had no effect on the economy of the restaurant business.

SHERWOODThe experience in Montgomery County, Bethesda, other places, the District and -- back up that same point of view. And now, I'd point out isn't Phillip Morris still -- are they headquartered...

KAINEYeah, Altria is...

SHERWOODAltria. I always forget that made-up name. But I once went to that cigarette manufacturing plant south of Richmond, I think it is.

KAINEYep, yeah, it's about -- well, it's about two miles south of the state capitol.

SHERWOODIs that still a major industry for you?

KAINEIt is. I mean, Altria moved their corporate headquarters from New York to Washington -- to Richmond during Governor Warner's administration. I worked very closely with Altria on a lot of economic development deals. I have good relations with them. We disagreed on the restaurant ban. You know, they did not support that. I wouldn't pretend that they did, but we've worked closely together and they remain a very good Virginia employer.

NNAMDISpeaking of employer, if this election is going to be about getting people back to work what do you think is the one or two most important things that congress can do to make progress on that front? And if it has to do with the federal government and infrastructure what do you say to those people who say, there you go again, you Democrats, trying to expand federal spending?

KAINEWell, you know, they'll say what they're going to say, Kojo. But I do believe there's no way to cut yourself -- cut your way to prosperity. You have to make cuts to make things balance, that's very important. And so that's why, again, I've got as good a record as a cost-cutter of anybody who's ever served in the governor's office in Virginia. And I'll be a wise cost-cutter in Washington as well. But the only way you grow the economy is by making investments.

KAINEI learned doing economic development deals when I was governor. The following companies moved their headquarters from other states to Virginia, Volkswagen of North America, Hilton, MeadWestvaco, SAIC, CSC, Northrop Grummen announced they were moving from the west coast to the D.C. area before I left office. The single most powerful factor in those moves was the quality of our workforce and our education system. We're now 10th or 11th in the world in the percentage of adults with higher ed degrees. We got to get back to number one where we were 20 years ago.

KAINESo we need to continue to do investments in education, both money, but also curricular rigor. And we do need to make infrastructure investments. And it's -- is it government spending? It's private sector jobs. You know, if you go out and look who's doing the work on hotlines or rail to Dulles it's private sector contractors and people who are doing good work that will create not only jobs today, but higher platform for economic success tomorrow.

NNAMDIYou get the final question, Tom Sherwood.

SHERWOODIs it still a three-quarter corner offense for the democrats to win that you have to win big in northern Virginia, the Norfolk area and Roanoke to win statewide?

KAINEYou know, Tom, yeah...

SHERWOODI know that you're going after...

KAINESure.

SHERWOOD...every voter in the state. I'll give the stereo...

KAINEI will say -- and Tom and I were chatting. Tom covered Virginia politics for many years at the Washington Post and was in Richmond -- it's changed a bit in that Richmond media market used to be the most republican. Richmond and Roanoke have switched...

KAINEChesterfield County, all those places.

KAINE...yeah, because of the suburbs. Richmond and Roanoke have switched a bit so, you know, you play everywhere. But what I tried to do when I ran for governor in '05 that was a little unusual at the time is Democratic candidates had often sort of ignored suburban voters in all parts of the state, whether it's suburban Roanoke, Hampden Rhodes, northern Virginia or Richmond. And we really needed -- Mark Warner, in his race, reached out to rural voters in good ways.

KAINEAnd then the thing I added to it was heavy outreach to suburban voters.

SHERWOODI have to, do ask this. Someone said to me, you got to ask him, when he was a democratic national committeeman, he went around the country for two years promoting President Obama. Is he still promoting President Obama?

KAINEYeah, yeah, the President is a friend and I'm his supporter. He's doing a good job under very tough circumstances. You know, we don’t agree on everything. I don't agree with my wife on everything and he's the President and I'm not.

SHERWOODWhat don't you agree with the President on?

KAINEWell, the one thing, you know, and I think...

NNAMDII'll tell you what Tom doesn't agree with, the last question thing.

KAINEYeah. Right, he said one more question.

SHERWOODWait, I'm pretending I'm in Congress. I'm revising and extending my remarks.

KAINEAn area that I would've done differently, if I were the president, and I'm certainly going to be a stickler about, I think, with respect to Libya, I think, he laid out a good rational. The events of the week have been very, very helpful. But, I think, more formal consultation and putting Congress on the record about that. I think Congress should be on the record when we're committing American troops into military activities.

KAINEIf there's an initial emergency, if we're protecting American soil, you can wait to do it, but, generally, Congress should have to go on the record on those things and that's something I'm going to be a stickler about when I go into Congress.

NNAMDIGovernor Kaine, thank you for joining us. Good luck to you.

KAINEOkay, thanks so much and I'll (unintelligible) ...

SHERWOODAnd we didn't even get to 9/11. I have several more last questions.

NNAMDITim Kaine is a democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate. He's running for the seat currently occupied by Virginia's Jim Webb. He's the former governor of Virginia. We'll be talking shortly with Ana Sol Gutierrez. She is a member of the Maryland House of Delegates, a democrat from Montgomery County. But first, Tom Sherwood, we need to talk about a few D.C. things.

NNAMDIBecause of the earthquake and because of the upcoming hurricane, there hasn't been a great deal of talk about the committee report by the committee headed by council member Mary Cheh, releasing a report about the hiring practice of the administration of Mary Vincent Gray. And, you know, the report essentially said what everybody already knew, that is that Mayor Gray made some really bad mistakes in the early days of his hiring. But was there anything new in the report?

SHERWOODIt was -- you know, it came from Mary Cheh, who's been very supportive of Gray so...

NNAMDIYes.

SHERWOOD...it's important and it's unfortunate. The mayor is very lucky that an earthquake and a hurricane have come this week. The report, basically, says either the mayor knew all about this and it's an outrage or the major didn't know anything about this and it's an outrage. I mean, the mayor doesn't win on this. It's a very damning report. Although, I still am somewhat irritated that if I were a council member, I think I would've interviewed the mayor.

SHERWOODThey didn't interview the mayor. Now, maybe, they talked to him privately, I don't know. But I would've had the mayor subpoenaed to come and talk about what he knew and what he didn't know. It's the biggest question mark in the entire affair and they didn't ask him. I don't understand why. I know there's a separation of powers and he can refuse to come, but I would say, if the mayor were not guilty of anything, he -- you ought to go. He should've volunteered to go.

SHERWOODBut I think that's the biggest flaw in this report. But I do think it's quite damning to the Gray administration and it's kind of a general feeling the Gray administration is not moving on all cylinders. And that report kind of shows it wasn't at the beginning of the administration.

NNAMDIThe other thing that came out this week, in full disclosure here, I have sat next to Jack Evans at a baseball game. It was a R.F.K. Stadium. I paid for my own ticket. I have no...

SHERWOODYou sound awfully defensive.

NNAMDII had no idea that the council member was spending hundreds of thousands of dollars of constituents' services funds on sporting tickets.

SHERWOODWell, that's over a 10-year period, about $130,000 for varying sporting things and then $110,000 in other things.

NNAMDIYes.

SHERWOODAnd there's criticism in the Twitter field about why he didn't spend more on helping people with constituent services.

NNAMDIWhich is the general perception...

SHERWOODRight.

NNAMDI...and understanding of what constituent services funds are for.

SHERWOODWell, no...

NNAMDIAnd he had Yvette Alexander on a week or two ago, talking -- defending her own spending on...

SHERWOODRight.

NNAMDI...of constituent services.

SHERWOODWell, the fact is, the constituent service could be spent for -- virtually anything but overt raw, naked politics. Everything else is open, fair game. And the fact is, as Evans would say, he is the downtown council member. He is the big -- the business guy whose brought the things here. And he said he wants to support the teams. He says, I personally don't go. I mean, I wish there'd been more in the story about how he personally was luxuriating in these seats and -- at the cost of the money he'd raised.

SHERWOODAnd he could raise that money by $500 a person, in most -- $80,000 a year. So I thought, on the one hand, it seemed like a lot of money for sports, on the other hand, it wasn't like he took trips to play golf at Pebble Beach or things that other council members have done.

NNAMDIWell, when you use the words raw, naked, for a second there, I got really scared about what he was exactly spending this money on.

SHERWOODI think, you know, I was in the council chambers when they went from $40,000 a year to $80,000. And I didn't like the giddiness of all the council members there that day talking about maybe they'd go up to $100,000 and they were joking around. This is serious money. It's raised from people for serious reasons. Sports is a serious issue, but I think it's -- no one's going to say that spending more money on sports then on other things is the right way to go.

NNAMDIAnd I suspect that when the council comes back, we are likely to see more regulations that limit what constituent funds can be used for.

SHERWOODWell, I know, and some people are going -- I mean, everyone is going to try to be the king of the totem pole on ethics reform. The mayor says he's going to make some proposals. Jack Evans is going to make some proposals. Every council member is going to have a hand in making it look like they're in favor of the ethics clean-up. And it's good. We need to have -- we need a strong, tough law.

NNAMDIThe last time we talked with delegate Ana Sol Gutierrez -- she's a member of the Maryland House of Delegates, a democrat from Montgomery County. The last time we talked with her, people were hot about secure communities, a program that essentially makes it possible for the FBI to share fingerprint data with local law enforcement agencies that make arrests.

NNAMDISince then, federal officials have announced plans to scrap agreements with local jurisdictions about how that program will be implemented. No one is going to be able to opt out. Ana Sol Gutierrez joins us now in studio. Thank you so much for joining us.

MS. ANA SOL GUTIERREZThank you again for inviting me, Kojo. It's always a pleasure.

NNAMDIWhat do you make about where this whole secure community issue is headed?

GUTIERREZWell, I wish that we could say that since I was last here it's all been resolved, but I think it just keeps on getting worse and worse. And I tend to agree with those who testified at the hearing in Arlington a couple of days ago, that it's best to just scrap it and not try to mend it. I think every time that there is -- you press a button here, six other holes appear on another side. I think, particularly with this announcement of reviewing the 300,000 cases, right now what I am getting calls on and questions is that, how is this going to work?

GUTIERREZThere really is not very clear information as to what they're doing, what their priorities. There's no transparency. And what are those cases? There's not even an accounting of sayings, there are this kind and that kind.

NNAMDIIf you have questions or comments on this issue, you can call us at 800-433-8850, 800-433-8850. The recently conversation about secure communities is taking place while the Obama administration has apparently been trying to reposition itself on deportations, saying last week that they're going to filter out deportation cases where people have not been charged with crimes. I saw a confrontation on television or in the newspaper between a woman who said, I simply called to report that my husband...

GUTIERREZExactly.

NNAMDI...was giving me some problems and the next thing I know, I'm up for deportation. How do you feel about how the administration is approaching these issues right now?

GUTIERREZWell, we're not very happy because of what our -- I'm saying it seems to me that they are trying to put lipstick on a pig, I'm sorry to use that reference...

NNAMDIThat analogy.

GUTIERREZ...but it gets more and more similar to that. What we really see in the community is a huge of amount of confusion. And unfortunately, they're already even scams that are popping up with people telling them, oh, with this new opportunity, let me help you. I've gotten calls from people asking me if now is a good time to get arrested because they can then enter into the system and get a work permit.

GUTIERREZThat is so absolutely not understanding what is the current fear in the immigrant community and how we really do need to look at this in the entire -- in its entirety. I asked questions when this was announced. There was a conference call to inform leaders ahead of time and I asked two simple questions, what are you going to do with people that are detained, asking the questions of what is happening there. Because we know that those that can afford a lawyer, those are in the 300,000 cases.

GUTIERREZBut there were other people that don't have lawyers that are being pressured to sign a voluntary departure, that are being pressured into themselves committing the...

NNAMDIFor those of our listeners who are not familiar with this, secure communities is theoretically supposed to be targeting illegal immigrants...

GUTIERREZAbsolutely.

NNAMDI...who have committed crimes.

GUTIERREZAbsolutely.

NNAMDIThe point you and others are making is that people who have not committed crimes or who are guilty of nothing outside of being in the country illegally, which is not a criminal offense, it's a civil offense, are nevertheless being targeted.

GUTIERREZExactly. And I'm glad you made that point because I just assumed that everybody knows as much of the details as one -- you’re a person that's involved. There's a very recent report, Immigration Enforcement Off Target, and that's by AILA, the American Immigration Lawyer Association, recently looked at the offenses, who all is being pulled into secure communities.

GUTIERREZAnd they've detailed close to 150 cases, down to how they were stopped, what they were asked. And the majority of these cases, I think it's like 75 percent, had no criminal activity, had family here, had U.S. children, would otherwise have been able to make a case for -- if they had the opportunity, for their situation to be reviewed.

GUTIERREZSo that is one very serious side, but the most serious side and where I think we need to spend more time and nobody's spending this time, is what's happening at the local police level. That is something that really concerns me.

NNAMDIWhat is happening at the local police level?

GUTIERREZWell, again, in this report, it saying that the -- there are no guidelines. There's nothing that is protecting the dragnet that we are seeing of people getting stopped for a traffic offense and...

NNAMDIBeing questioned about the immigration status.

GUTIERREZ...being questioned, taken in, being charged on -- sometimes a charge that is not a valid charge until their ICE can be notified and fingerprints are taken. And even if that person is not in a ICE database, if they can find no record, but that person happens be from a country like El Salvador, my country, then ICE puts a detainer as a possibility of an undocumented immigrant. And once in the system, there's very little that that person can do.

SHERWOODWell, a comedian once said, not many people from Canada who are here illegally are stopped for minor traffic things and asked where you from and why are you? But the flipside of that is, the people in this country who say, with all the economy and the jobs and all of that, what should this country be doing about the fact that there are substantial people here who are, in fact, whether it's a civil matter or not, are here illegally, taking jobs. Many people would argue that they support the economy and that's a good thing because those jobs would go wanting in many cases.

SHERWOODBut what do you say -- how does a country address the problem with illegal -- if it is a problem.

NNAMDIWell, before you respond to that, we have a caller on the line, Tony, who I think exactly shares the sentiment that Tom expressed on behalf of other people. Tony, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

TONYHi, thanks very much for taking the call. I agree with the comment that your guest just made. I think that, look, there are 11 or 12 million folks in this country who are here illegally whether it's civil or criminal, you can spin that any way you'd like. The thing is (unintelligible) ...

NNAMDINo, no, I can't spin it any way I like. It is not a criminal offense. It is a civil offense.

TONYRight, right.

NNAMDIPlease do understand, I'm not spinning.

TONYRight. Well, that's great, but I'd hate to be called for a civil offense in front of a court and have to face the penalty for that. The point is, someone's done something wrong. So, I mean, you can split it civil, criminal, whatever, but someone's done something wrong. And so the thing is, we've got 11 or 12 million folks here who have done that and now, all of a sudden, there is this system of enforcement out there and folks are complaining because their constituents are being deported because they've done something wrong.

TONYAnd so the thing is, if the immigration system is broken in any way, it's broken because there hasn't been enforcement. Now, there's a system in place where they're actually matching up records, using technology we have and, of course, people are complaining because now it's going to become an effective system. So I think it's very disingenuous to complain about programs like this. Look, if folks are being stopped and it's being determined that they're not here illegally, then they should be removed because they broke the law.

NNAMDIAna Sol Gutierrez, how do you respond to that?

GUTIERREZWell, I think he ignores what the history of immigration has been in the United States. We had a system that worked. We had a system in which people could come and if they found a job, they could apply and get a visa that would allow them to enter the path of legalization as a permanent resident. You can come here as a student, you could come as a tourist and decide to be a student and there were processes in place where you applied, where you identified yourself fully.

GUTIERREZWhere there was validity in what you were present, either from an employer or from a school, and you were able to adjust your status. That has been eliminated. We have made...

SHERWOODWhen was that eliminated? Is this a...

GUTIERREZIt's in a series of three acts, but they really -- they began under the Clinton administration with a reduction of visas and with eliminating of opportunities for adjustment, 287-I -- no, 287 -- that's the wrong program. There was -- this is a clause that would allow family members to adjust, that if you had a brother or a sister, but more importantly a husband or a wife and children, you could adjust your immigration status. That is now almost impossible to do.

GUTIERREZThe number of visas available to come and work here have been incredibly reduced. Not enough to supply the need for workers from other countries. You're seeing the high tech community complaining about this. But we also see it in the agriculture sector, in these large industrial sectors, that absolutely need the immigrant worker for them to be sustained. So let's look at fixing the system in the way that it worked before.

NNAMDIIs your concern that the White House, that the administration, that the president in particular, is not hearing you, is not listening to you?

GUTIERREZI absolutely feel like that. I am almost giving up on asking for real change in the current administration's policies. We're seeing them really just being more and more restrictive of individuals, breaking up families, not recognizing the need for administrative action.

NNAMDIWell, you're a politician. It's one thing for the president not to listen, it's another thing for him not to be able to count Hispanic votes. Do you think the administration and the President, in particular, will be losing Hispanic votes in the upcoming election as a result of this?

GUTIERREZIf this doesn't change, I can assure you that there will be.

SHERWOODIs it...

GUTIERREZA loss of Hispanic votes.

SHERWOOD...is it -- is this something that you're willing to have Obama lose the election? Because there's even news this week that the African-Americans are very upset with Obama for going on a jobs tour. He went mostly to white areas and now he's going to go to Detroit to kind of fix that. But it looks like he's losing a lot of support. Well, he needs a big turnout to win again. Sounds like you're suggesting that that big turnout won't be there.

GUTIERREZWell, he's feeling the heat. And I think he rightly needs to feel the heat. I don't think that he can just count on the African-American vote, the Hispanic vote, to carry him forth. If they are indeed issues, jobs, work, this immigration reform that we absolutely need to confront, education issues that need to be addressed in the way that those of us who voted with him, that voted for change, that voted for someone to come and really do the kind of policies that support the progressives.

GUTIERREZI think if there is no response to what we feel the government should be doing, then I'm afraid we're just not going to be there.

NNAMDII'm afraid we're just about out of time. Ana Sol Gutierrez, thank you for joining us.

GUTIERREZThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIAna Sol Gutierrez is a member of the Maryland House of Delegates. She's a democrat from Montgomery County. Tom Sherwood is our resident analyst. He's an NBC 4 reporter and a columnist for the Current Newspapers. Will you be out chasing the storm this weekend?

SHERWOODI'll be out this week, particularly on Sunday morning. I’m hoping I can do a live shot from the roof of my building.

NNAMDIThe hardest working man in television. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.