MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Nearly three years ago, American elected its first African-American President and perhaps the most remarkable thing about the Obama presidency might be just how rarely race has come up. Many see this as proof that we have moved beyond race, but close observers note that it hasn't been absent.

MR. KOJO NNAMDISome say the bitter partisan mudslinging and backlash against the president aren't just about political disagreement, but a deeper divide of which race is an element and because race is now often expressed, encoded language and subtext, it's that much more difficult to discuss and to address. As we head toward the 2012 election and challenges to the president -- challengers to the president begin to jockey for position, we talk with Randall Kennedy.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIHe is a professor of law at Harvard University and the author, most recently, of "The Persistence of the Color Line: Racial Politics and the Obama Presidency," about exactly how race is effecting and is affected by Barack Obama's presidency. Randall Kennedy joins us from studios in Cambridge, Mass. Thank you so much for joining us.

MR. RANDALL KENNEDYThank you.

NNAMDIYou, too, can join this conversation at 800-433-8850. Randall Kennedy, when President Obama was elected, there was a lot of talk about a post racial America, but you've said that everything about Obama is interpreted through race. What do you mean?

KENNEDYWell, I mean that when you think about Barack Obama, the next thought that comes to mind is black man. And we see that -- we saw that during his campaign for the presidency and we've seen it ever since he's become president. Every issue is refracted either explicitly or implicitly, to some degree, through a racial lens.

NNAMDIWe know Obama's election did not mark the end of racism in America, but it was certainly historic. So what did it mean and could you, if you will, explain what you see as the difference between historic and transformative?

KENNEDYWell, I mean, his election was a remarkable thing. I mean, a black man being elected president of the United States. After all, in the mid 20th century, in a large part of the United States, black people were kept from voting either by legal means or by just outright terrorism. So for a black man to be elected in 2008 really did mirror a remarkable transformation. At the same time, it's also true that Barack Obama, even in victory, had to win despite his blackness. He had to overcome his blackness in order to win. And he has had to overcome his blackness in order to govern.

NNAMDIThe fact that race has been almost a non-issue during Obama's presidency seems to be in itself an interesting issue. There have been almost no incidents or headlines where race was the central issue apart from, maybe, the Beer Summit. What do you make of that?

KENNEDYWell, I mean, Barack Obama has tried hard to stay away from the race issue. And, in fact, in my view, that's the clearest indication of the centrality of race. I mean, everybody knows that there are racial issues around. But Barack Obama has tried very hard to stay away from the race issue, in part because he recognizes that, you know, he's vulnerable there. His detractors will seize upon anything to attack him and they'll certainly seize upon race to attack him.

KENNEDYYou mentioned the Beer Summit, you are referring, of course, to the episode in which the -- a Cambridge police officer arrested Professor Henry Louis Gates in his own home and there was a, you know, a big controversy about it. Barack Obama, in talking about this controversy, did not accuse the police officer of engaging in racially discriminatory conduct. What the president did say is that, given the facts that were at his disposal at that moment, it seemed as though the police officer had acted stupidly, arresting a man in his own home.

KENNEDYThat's all -- that's what he said. But having said that, people immediately attacked the president using the race card. Glenn Beck, for one, accused -- said that this was the president saying that the police had acted stupidly, was an illustration of how Barack Obama is anti-white, how he's racist. Well, you know, Obama has had to confront this sort of thing and he knows that the race question is a volatile question, it's a volatile issue. He tries to stay far from it.

NNAMDIWe're talking with Randall Kennedy. He's a professor of law at Harvard University and the author, most recently, of "The Persistence of the Color Line: Racial Politics and the Obama Presidency." You can call us at 800-433-8850. What affect do you think the Obama presidency has had on race in America, especially on race and politics in America, 800-433-8850? You can also send e-mail to kojo@wamu.org, a tweet @kojoshow or simply go to our website, kojoshow.org, and join the conversation there.

NNAMDII found the title of your book fascinating. "The Persistence of the Color Line," because one thinks of W.E.B. Du Bois' 1903 words having to do with his book "The Souls of Black Folk," in which he said, "The problem of the 20th century is the problem of the color line." We are now in the 21st century and I am now wondering if the problem of the 21st century is the problem of the color line or whether the color line is in fact shifting and whether the Obama presidency has played a role in the shifting of the centrality, if you will, of the color line.

KENNEDYYes, as with color line shifts, again, I mean, it would've -- it would've been completely fanciful for a black man to have sought the presidency in 1903 when Dr. Du Bois uttered his famous line. No chance whatsoever that a black man could've been elected president in 1903 or for that matter, 1953 or for that matter 1973. So things have changed, Barack Obama's presidency, I think, will accelerate that change in a positive direction.

KENNEDYBut the fact that the president of the United States, the most powerful single person in the United States has to tip toe around racial issues, shows the continuing power of the color line. Think about what's going on right now with respect to the whole issue of the employment.

KENNEDYThere are number of blacks who were very angry with the president because he's not more explicit in naming black unemployment as a particular, as a unique issue, a unique problem. But, of course, I mean, he knows about that problem, but he is loathed to racialize it because he recognizes the backlash that will happen if he does so.

NNAMDIIndeed, if the president were to craft a policy that says, because black unemployment is so much higher than white unemployment in America, I'm going to have a policy that crafts employment opportunities increasing percentages for African-Americans, how is that likely to be received by the overall electorate, in general, and by conservatives in particular?

KENNEDYWell, they will damn him, of course. Again, even when he pushes policies that say nothing about race, he is criticized and accused of showing racial favoritism. There's some on the right wing who say that his health care reform legislation was all about reparations for black people. That has -- he says nothing about race whatsoever, but they are accusing him of racial favoritism there. Imagine what they would be saying if he were to push a job policy that was explicitly aimed at black unemployment. There would be nothing wrong with him doing so, as a matter of principal.

KENNEDYAfter all, they're all sorts of groups in American society that have peculiar, particular difficulties. And, you know, politicians don't have any problem with recognizing that and trying to craft policies that deal with those peculiarities. But it's -- so it's not a matter of principal, it's a matter of politics. And it's a matter of politics -- he would suffer politically if he were to do some of the things that, frankly, some of his black supporters are urging him to do.

NNAMDIAnd you talk about how the president tiptoes around the issue of race. I found it significant in my own reading of "The Persistence of the Color Line," that one indication that the color line may be shifting is that you offer analytical and reasoned arguments and well researched arguments about why President Obama acts in the way he does on the issue of race. But I found you more passionately critical of him on one issue more than any other and that is the issue of gay marriage. Why?

KENNEDYThat's true, that's true. I'm very -- I am critical of the president with respect to gay marriage and one reason for that is, here we have an issue in which, as a legal matter, gay people, lesbian people are discriminated against. Not just, you know, in fact, but as a matter of law. And the president of the United States ought to be against that. And it seems to me, he ought to show more empathy for the position of gay people, lesbian people, than actually he has shown.

KENNEDYNow, again, I want to be attentive to his position as an electoral politician. Electoral politicians have to be keenly aware of the discipline of the electorate. They don't get to stay in office unless they get votes. But on this one, I think, actually, that Barack Obama could push further than he has pushed without taking unnecessary political risks. I think...

NNAMDIIndeed you made the point in "The Persistence of the Color Line," that when he was a state senator in Illinois, he actually supported gay marriage, that he has, in fact, retreated from that position and that the variety of explanations which he has offered, including the latest, which is that he has an evolving position, tends to follow where he thinks the American electorate is rather than lead. Clearly you think he should be leading.

KENNEDYI do. And here I must say, I think of my analogy is John F. Kennedy in 1960, black people were really, you know, behind John F. Kennedy, really supported him. He said that he could do certain things on his own to assist them with their predicament, their oppression, and he was very slow in taking the steps that he should've taken much more quickly. And there were people -- I think of John Lewis that were harshly critical of John F. Kennedy. I think that gay people, lesbian people are in the same position vis-à-vis Barack Obama.

NNAMDINevertheless, you write, "Aware of the president's limitations, I am yet unembarrassed to say that I admire Barack Obama." Why?

KENNEDYYes. I admire Barack Obama for a variety of reasons. One, he did a remarkable thing. He perceived that a black man could become president of the United States, that took, you know, that itself spoke well of him. A lot of people seeing the same landscape did not see a possibility that he glimpsed. Having glimpsed that possibility, he then crafted a political campaign that was very effective in moving aside a very formidable competitor, Hillary Clinton.

KENNEDYAnd then he took his campaign to the nation and prevailed. So just as, you know, as a political performer, he did something quite extraordinary. Furthermore, just on the American and political scene, it seems to me that he is by far the most well-spoken, the most well-informed, the most gracious, the most cosmopolitan political actor on the scene. It doesn't mean that I don't have criticisms of Barack Obama. I do. I just void some. But I do think that he is a quite gifted person. A person who, if he has more support, will be able to do good things for this country.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. When we come back, we will continue our conversation with Randall Kennedy. His latest book is called, "The Persistence of the Color Line: Racial Politics and the Obama Presidency." If you have called and the lines are busy, go to our website, kojoshow.org. Raise you question there. How much of the more heated opposition to President Obama do you think is based on or has anything to do with his race? You can go to our website, kojoshow.org. Send us a tweet @kojoshow or e-mail to kojo@wamu.org. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation with Randall Kennedy. He's a professor of law at Harvard University and the author most recently of "The Persistence of the Color Line: Racial Politics and the Obama Presidency." We're getting a lot of telephone calls. If the lines are busy, go to our website if you'd like to join the conversation at kojoshow.org. Before I go to the telephones, Randall Kennedy, there's one other issue that I'd like you to discuss.

NNAMDIBecause you looked at the controversy surrounding President Obama's former pastor. Through the lens of your father, everybody remembers the controversy surrounding Obama's former pastor, the Reverend Wright. And you said, I would like to look at that through the lens of Harold Kennedy, Sr. Before I read this book, what I knew about your father was that he worked for the post office.

NNAMDIThat he and your mother, who I think was a teacher, had managed to send three children to Princeton University, all of whom became lawyers, one of whom became a judge. And therefore, people would think that your father lived the American dream. Yet, his relationship with America was not, in his view, that simple and certainly not in his view that pleasant.

KENNEDYNo. My father viewed the American democracy as, frankly, a nightmare. One of the things that interested me with the whole Reverend Wright controversy, I had many friends, particularly white friends who would come up to me and say, gosh, can you believe what that reverend said? Can you believe that he's so angry at the United States, you know, damning the United States.

KENNEDYAnd I said, listen, my father was considerably more extreme than Reverend Wright in his negative feelings for the country because my father felt that the United States had betrayed him, had betrayed all black people and he never got over that feeling, never got over that feeling. And so I look...

NNAMDIYou talk about...

KENNEDYI'm sorry.

NNAMDIPlease go ahead.

KENNEDYI looked at the -- I look at the Reverend Wright much more sympathetically than many people. And in my book, I wanted to present him in a way that would put him in context that allow people to understand why he would say the things that he said. He was not a crazy man. He was saying things that a lot of people, especially black Americans understand and appreciate. They might not -- they don't necessarily agree with his conclusions.

KENNEDYI don't agree with his conclusions, some of them. I don't agree with all of my father's conclusions, but these were thoughtful men, loving men and I thought it important for people to understand where they were coming from.

NNAMDIWhen you and your parents were traveling down South, tell what happened when your father's car got stop and why even the patrol officers who stopped you would tell you why they stopped him?

KENNEDYWell, I grew up -- I'm Columbia, South Carolina. My parents fled South Carolina in the late 1950s. They were refugees from Jim Crow racism that we would go down to South Carolina during holidays. And I specially remember Easter holiday, we'd go down. And on a number of occasions, my father was pulled over by police officers, white police officers for no reason. And in fact -- and they didn't make any bones about it.

KENNEDYThey would -- they said to him, we're pulling you over because we see that you are -- you have Washington, D.C. plates on and, boy, we just want you to know that we do things differently down here than they might do up in Washington, D.C. And the police officers actually thought they were doing him a favor. They were essentially saying, do things the Jim Crow way or you might get into trouble.

KENNEDYAnd my father, a very proud man, had to take that. He was in front of his wife. He was in front of his children that he had to take that. And as I say in my book, he would the conversation with an extra dollop of deference and say, yes, sir, because he did not want to get into trouble. He did not want to put his family into harm. But he felt deeply humiliated by episodes like that and that had an effect on him. That colored his view of patriotism, colored his view of what America stands for.

NNAMDITherefore, now on to the telephones. We will start with Jonathan in Annapolis, Md. Jonathan, you're on the air. Go ahead please.

JONATHANHi, Kojo. Thanks for taking my call. My main comment is simply that I think the racial divide is huge. And I think the thing that I come back to often or not is the question of the large percentage of white political leaders in Washington were asking on the right side was that, is Obama black enough? And I thought the question in and of itself was inherently racist because it expose the fact that the white politicians of old, the main access they have to the African-American vernacular is from hip hop.

JONATHANAnd so if they're tracing black culture exclusively to hip hop and then asking is Obama black enough because he sounds white, that was a great (unintelligible) touched on his book of how just the racial divide continues to be a huge factor, almost subconsciously. And I just wanted to hear your comments. What do you think about that question, is Obama black enough, that people seem to ask? Is that inherently racist?

NNAMDIRandall Kennedy?

KENNEDYSure, it is. I mean, think about early in the campaign when the now vice president, Joe Biden, talked about Barack Obama being the first, you know, articulate, clean black candidate. I mean, that showed such low expectations of black politicians. But, you know, Joe Biden's comment was frankly representative of a wider camp of opinion. That's one of the things that Barack Obama has had to grapple with. That's one of the things that any black person operating in, you know, elite sectors of American society has to grapple with.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Jonathan. We move on to Michael in Rockville, Md. Michael, your turn.

MICHAELOh, yeah, thanks. I'm kind of astounded by the conversation so far about the racism. And you're only looking at one side of the coin here. I mean, all you have to do is watch MSNBC on any given night and you will hear allegations of racism against the Tea Party, against conservatives until the cows come home. I mean, every time, you know, those people hear a -- and I'm talking to those people at MSNBC and the press -- every time they hear something comes from a conservative come out and say they don't like an Obama policy, oh, it's really because of racism.

MICHAELWhen they say take our country and they say, well, they never recognize him as a legitimate president, they're putting these words in the mouth of the conservative movement and the people. Look at what Ed Schultz does. Ed Schultz cuts thing -- when Perry says there's a dark black cloud hanging over the country, he cuts it off there. And of course, he was talking about the debt, but they just assumed there's racism.

NNAMDIWell, Michael, one of the things that Randall Kennedy talks about in his book is that, in his view and the others, I expect, racism is expressed now generally using coded language. Allow me to explain -- allow me to have Randall Kennedy explain to you what he means by that and whether he sees any of that in the language used by followers of the Tea Party. Hold on.

MICHAELAllow me to answer...

NNAMDIWell, let Randall Kennedy answer first, please.

KENNEDYFirst of all, I will embrace part of what the caller says in the following way. No, not all of the opposition to Barack Obama is racially based. There are all sorts of reasons why people oppose Barack Obama for non-racial reasons. Some people oppose him because of religious convictions. Some people oppose him strictly on, you know, grounds of partisanship. He's a Democrat, they are Republicans. Some people oppose him because of certain conception of federalism and for other ideological reasons. So I am not claiming...

NNAMDIAnd on specific issues like gay marriage. But go ahead, please.

KENNEDYAnd on all sorts of issues, all sorts of issues. People have criticisms and oppose Barack Obama. So I am not claiming that all opposition of Barack Obama, including opposition from conservatives is based on racism. I'm not saying that. I am saying, however, that a considerable amount of the opposition to Barack Obama does have a racial component to it. I mean, how can one take a look at Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh or Tea Party rallies, not all of them but many of them, and not say that race is a component of the attack on Barack Obama.

NNAMDIWhy would you -- why is it not difficult to come to that conclusion?

KENNEDYAnd furthermore, I mean, listen, we don't have to, you know, stretch out on this one. There are pollsters who check American public opinion constantly. There are millions of Americans who will say to a pollster straight out that they will never vote for a black American, no matter what. Now, that number has gone down dramatically over the past 50 years, fortunately. But there are still millions of Americans who take that position so they're -- I mean, those are people who are just overt racist and will hold up their hands and say that they are.

KENNEDYThen you've got people who camouflage their racism. No, they don't say that race is behind their opposition. They say, ah, the man is a Muslim, as if that would be a, you know, valid reason for being against anybody anyway. Or they say that he wasn't born in the United States or they say this or they say that. They camouflage their racism. And then, of course, there's some people who hide their racism from themselves.

KENNEDYFortunately, in the United States now, racism has been largely ostracized. It's been stigmatized. It's not a good thing to be. So some people are racist, but they hide it from themselves. They don't think they're racist but, you know, a reasonable objective view would indicate that they are. So, to get back to the caller I'm not saying that all opposition to Obama is based on race. I am saying that a substantial amount of the opposition to Obama is based on race.

NNAMDIMichael?

MICHAELYes.

NNAMDIAre you there?

MICHAELThank you. Yes, I am.

NNAMDICould you see how it would be perceived that if somebody named Barack Hussein Obama happens to be black and a significant portion of the population believes that he was not born in this country, can you see how some people might interpret that as being racist?

MICHAELWell, sure. But I can also see how some people, you know, are racist the other way, too. There are plenty of them. I have two points. One, the primary unique feature of Barack Obama, he's a very intelligent man, very successful academically and whatnot, but that he was half African-American and very well-spoken. He gives a good speech. But he was really inexperienced. I got two questions. One, can your guest honestly say that if he was not African-American he would have gotten elected? I...

NNAMDIThat's an issue he raises in the book. Go ahead, Randall Kennedy.

KENNEDYNo, I would have -- no, he wouldn't have gotten elected. I have no problem with saying that. I think that, you know...

MICHAELThe other thing is that what you do...

KENNEDYThe fact -- well, hold up. The fact that Barack Obama was African-American, it's been a burden for him. He's had to overcome his blackness. But in our present society, you know, blackness sometimes can work for you. And in his case, it worked against him in certain ways. It also worked for him in certain ways. Clearly, there was a level of excitement and enthusiasm around his candidacy that would not have been there had he been, you know, a white person with the same general, you know, profile.

MICHAELAnd the other point is, you've defined -- and I've dealt with this for 40 years now. You have defined a definition of racism that if the premise of what you say is accepted, it is un-provable otherwise. In other words, you're telling people, oh, you don't even realize you're a racist but you really are. That is just psychobabble and unfounded on anything. It's like, it doesn't mean -- so does that mean that anytime somebody -- anybody can just come up and just say, well, the real reason you don't want this is that you don't realize that. You know, never mind the fact that maybe some people don't want nationalized health care. Oh, no, no. The real reason maybe there's 70 percent...

NNAMDIWell, allow me to have Randall Kennedy respond to that. Are we capable of harboring prejudice without realizing it, Randall Kennedy?

KENNEDYSure, we are. And I think that, you know, everyday human experience shows that. There are all sorts of instances in which people act in a certain way and they do not even recognize the way in which they're acting. Just one other thing with the caller. The caller talked about, you know, inexperience. Listen, I've said before that I can understand, you know, people being against Barack Obama for all sorts of non-racist reasons. On the question of experience, Barack Obama and Joe Biden prevailed in the election.

KENNEDYThey were arraigned against John McCain and Sarah Palin. In the context of the election of 2008, the vice presidential opposition was particularly important, given the age and, you know -- well, given the age of John McCain, Sarah Palin would have been in the second seat of government. For anybody talking about, you know, Barack Obama's, you know, relative inexperience, to go past Sarah Palin, it seems to me, is just remarkable. Sarah Palin completely, completely incapable of taking on such a high post, yet people want to, you know, talk about Obama and Biden. You know, please give me a break.

NNAMDIMichael, thank you very much for your call. Here now Steven in Washington, D.C. Steven, you're on the air, go ahead please.

STEVENAll right. I wanted to say that as a upper middle class white Washington, D.C. resident who grew up in New England. First of all, I never felt that Obama was terribly charismatic. Secondly, I did believe that he was the most qualified of the three main contenders. But mostly, I was desperate that he win largely because he's black. And there's no question. I thought it would be really good for the country and good for the world. And now, I'm only very desperate that he succeed.

NNAMDIAnd by succeed, what do you mean, Steven?

STEVENThat he not get bullied out of doing the things that really need to be done...

NNAMDIAnd therein...

STEVEN...in terms of the world finances, in terms of health care, in terms of ending up being regarded as a pretty good leader.

NNAMDIAnd therein lies the rub, Randall Kennedy. When I said earlier the distinction to make between being historic and being transformative, obviously Barack Obama's election was historic. Is it possible that the expectations of his supporters that he would therefore be transformative may have been too high?

KENNEDYWell, that's a complicated story. I don't -- I do not expect transformative public initiatives from Barack Obama. I mean, frankly, I don't think that -- I think if you look very carefully at his platform, you know, he's a much more cautious person. Frankly, more conservative than some of his most fervent admirers and supports recognized.

KENNEDYI think that what's gonna be transformative about the Obama presidency, is the fact of him actually occupying the White House. That is a psychological break in American tradition that I think will have tremendous and positive consequences in the future, you know. I think that people have to be realistic about the limits of a president, and especially a president with a divided government.

KENNEDYSo I don't have, you know, really, really high expectations, and frankly, I think that the mass of black people -- the overwhelming mass of black people are realistic too. And understand the dilemmas that this man faces, the limits on his power, and I think that, you know, most people who are supporters of Obama recognize that and hope that his presidency will set the stage for future change in the future, but recognize that his presidency itself will not bring, you know, tremendous transformative policies to this country.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue our conversation with Randall Kennedy. His most recent book is called "The Persistence of the Color Line: Racial Politics and the Obama Presidency." You can call us at 800-433-8850. Even if the color line persists, do you think it's also the primary problem of the 21st century or is the emphasis shifting? And if so, where? 800-433-8850. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation with Randall Kennedy. He joins us from studios in Cambridge, Mass. He's a professor of law at Harvard University and the author of "The Persistence of the Color Line: Racial Politics and the Obama Presidency." I will go back directly to the telephones. Here is John in District Heights, Md. John, you're on the air. Go ahead, please. Hi John, are you there? John, I'm gonna put you back on hold and instead I will go to Brian in Arlington, Va. Brian, are you there?

NNAMDIOh, Brian can't seem to hear me either. We got a tweet from Cheryl that says, "Does Professor Kennedy think that Obama has overcompensated for being a black man and did he have any choice? What should he do?" Randall Kennedy?

KENNEDYI think he's in a real dilemma. I do think that sometimes he has overcompensated, for instance with that episode when he criticized the police officer. I wish that he, frankly, had not backed down from what he said. I thought that what he said was perfectly fine. He did not accuse the police officer of racial discrimination, but he did accuse the police officer of acting stupidly.

KENNEDYHe could have actually reinforced his comment by saying that the police officer acted like all too many police officers do act, with an abuse of power. I think it would have been quite useful for the president of the United States to have actually educated the country at that moment about the problem of abuse of power by police officers. And he might have tried actually to embrace conservatives on this issue.

KENNEDYConservatives are always talking about corruption on the part of government officers, you know, overreaching by government officers, abuse of power by government officers. Well, police officers are government officers, and that was a perfect illustration of overreaching, abuse of power. I didn't think that the president had to back down. I don't think he should have backed down, but he did in part because people were playing the race card against him.

NNAMDIAnd let me...

KENNEDYBut again, you know, he faces a difficult situation. So though I disagree with what he did, I disagree with the retreat that he beat, I, you know, I feel for him.

NNAMDIAnd you talked about his -- the possibility of him educating the American public. That's what he tried to do after the dust up over the Reverend Wright issue, and I got the impression that in this book, through using the lens of your father, you were trying to educate the readers of this book about exactly what it means to be somebody like your father, by which I mean, a lot of people would say your father sounds like he was a bigot. He was mistrustful of white people, he was unpatriotic, but you, in this book, attempt to contextualize why he felt that way.

KENNEDYYes. He certainly was mistrustful of white people. He did feel that the United States had let him down and had let down those whom he most loved. I did want to tell people stories that would make them understand why a thoughtful loving man would come to that conclusion. By the way, with respect to the president's speech on race, the one that gave in Philadelphia and that has been much lauded, as you know from reading my book, I'm actually...

NNAMDIYeah. You didn't think that much of it, yes.

KENNEDYNo. No.

NNAMDIYou said you waffled.

KENNEDYI'm lukewarm about that speech. I thought that his speech actually -- and it was -- it was -- it was aimed at a particular political problem. I think that he, you know, he put to the side that problem. I do not think it was a particularly illuminating speech about race. Let me just give you one thing. In his speech, bad things happened to black people. You know, black people were enslaved, black people were segregated.

KENNEDYHe never says anything about the forces that actually oppress black people. It's as if things, you know, it's as if some force from out of space came down and oppressed black people. Of course, that wasn't the way it was. He's very careful, very solicitous of white public opinion. He doesn't want to do anything that will ruffle the feathers of the white audience. And again, as an electoral politician, you can understand why he takes that position.

NNAMDIBut isn't he also -- isn't he also looking at a particular white audience? I get the impression that this is a president who's always looking at the middle. He knows that the left...

KENNEDYYeah.

NNAMDI...has not much of an option but to vote for him. He knows that the right will oppose him, and he is particularly careful it seems to me about offending people in the middle.

KENNEDYYes, absolutely.

NNAMDIYeah.

KENNEDYThat's -- that's his calculation. And again, one can understand that calculation, and that calculation will not change so long as the political landscape remains as is. So progressives out there are going to have to push things over and give politicians like Barack Obama more running room. They are not going to be pioneers. They are not going to run in front and be tackled. It's going to require a popular movement to push and give them more running room. They will come in behind.

NNAMDIHere is Ted in Kearneysville, West Va. Ted, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

TEDThank you, Kojo. I was just listening to your guest comments earlier. I came in on the -- just now on what you were talking about, so I can't comment on that. Concerning President Obama, I was born in 1945, and my first year of encountering desegregation was when I got in high school in 1957. We didn't have a problem in the small community where we were from. But anyway, there were some that did, but you did not hear a lot of problems.

TEDMy -- I did not vote for President Obama, and the reason I did not did not have anything to do with his skin color. Your guest keeps referring to him as a lot of people do as a black president, and he's not actually a black president. He's just as much white as he is black. So race had nothing to do about it. My greater concern is his desire to change the country, and when you're talking about race, it seems the people who talk about that are the ones who bring it up all the time.

TEDThe idea that this country is de facto bankrupt, and the left keeps wanting to spend more money, more programs, and it's like their in denial that a problem exists. We've got to get our spending under control or our country's going to cease to exist as we know it, and I hope the conservatives prevail on that because the liberals don't seem to have any problem with going socialist.

NNAMDIAllow me to have Randall Kennedy respond to you, Ted. Randall Kennedy?

KENNEDYOkay, couple things. Okay. A number of things. As I said over and over again, I understand, and I'm willing to accept that there are people who are against Barack Obama for non-racial reasons. So the caller says he's against Barack Obama for non-racial reasons, fine. I'm perfectly willing to, you know, stipulate that that is so. Two points, however. First, on this question of Barack Obama being black, Barack Obama calls himself black.

KENNEDYHe calls himself African-American and, you know, that's enough for me. If one goes through the history of our country, there have been any number of black leaders who have had a biological parent who was white. Frederick Douglas, paradigmatic black leader, his father was white. His father was a slave owner. His father, of course, you know, didn't take care of him. His father was willing to see him, you know, kept in slavery, but his biological father was white.

KENNEDYBooker T. Washington, you know, black leader, his father was white. There have been any number of blacks in American history who have had a biological father or mother. The important thing is one's self identification, at least in my view, and Barack Obama has identified himself as black or African-American.

NNAMDIYou've written about -- go ahead, please.

KENNEDYNo. That -- that's the main point. On the question of, you know, how should be proceed, obviously the caller believes that we should shrink the government. That's not my view. I think that actually our government is far from being too generous. I think that we have all too stingy a government. I think that we suffer from a government that does not do nearly enough to enable the American people to flourish.

KENNEDYI think we'd have a much better society if we had a true full employment regime, if we allowed people to have a decent minimum, if we did not condemn millions and millions and millions of American children to impoverishment from the very day they were born.

NNAMDITed, thank you...

KENNEDYSo we have an ideological disagreement.

NNAMDITed, thank you very much for your call. On the issue of how Barack Obama self-identifies, you've written about racial betrayal, successful black public figures, elected officials, celebrities who are viewed by African Americans as being sell outs. Does Obama fall into that category for some? Because you note that he is still the more -- the person more admired by blacks than any black person in history. Why so?

KENNEDYI think that Barack Obama's career is a perfect illustration of the way in which the specter the sell out, the specter of racial betrayal haunts black America. Before Barack Obama was president, early in the campaign remember there were some black people who said, you know, who whispered, you know, is he black enough, can we trust him? That changed. But early on there were a whole lot of questions about Barack Obama before the great switch. Then there was the great switch.

KENNEDYBarack Obama was embraced by black America overwhelmingly. He is still embraced by black America overwhelmingly, but there are some black Americans who do accuse Barack Obama of essentially selling out and, you know, he, therefore, will confront the same dilemma that confronts black people at every turn if they are in elite circles. If you're a black journalist and you say critical things about some sectors of black America, you will immediately be charged with selling out. So, you know, this is just par for the course with the allegations about Barack Obama on this front.

NNAMDIAlmost running out of time. A quick e-mail we got from somebody. "Would your guest agree that black voters let President Obama down in the mid-term elections by failing to vote?"

KENNEDYWell, let him down, it's true that the enthusiasm -- the black enthusiasm that helped put Obama over the top in 2008 was clearly not present in 2010. That certainly has to concern the president and his administration. If there is a similar lack of enthusiasm in the upcoming presidential election, Barack Obama could very well be a one-term president.

NNAMDII'm afraid that's all the time we have. Randall Kennedy, thank you so much for joining us.

KENNEDYThank you very much for having me on.

NNAMDIRandall Kennedy is a professor of law at Harvard University and the author most recently of "The Persistence of the Color Line: Racial Politics and the Obama Presidency." He joined us from studios in Cambridge, Mass. "The Kojo Nnamdi Show" is produced by Brendan Sweeney, Michael Martinez, Ingalisa Schrobsdorff and Tayla Burney.

NNAMDIThe managing producer is Diane Vogel. Our engineer today, Tobey Schreiner. Diane Vogel was on the phone and then followed by Kathy Goldgeier on the phones today. Podcasts of all shows, audio archives, CDs, and free transcripts are available at our website, kojoshow.org. Thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.