MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5, at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. The old post office, The Willard Hotel, President Lincoln's summer cottage, iconic D.C. sites that could have been lost to history. Fifty years ago, not many people cared about historic preservation in the U.S., not even here. Our national attitude and approach to preservation has changed, even as some things stay the same.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIToday, balancing preservation and the need for change is tricky business, especially in and around the nation's capital. Joining us to discuss historic preservation is, of course, Roger Lewis. He's an architect who writes the "Shaping the City" column for The Washington Post. Roger is also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland, College Park. Roger, good to see you again.

MR. ROGER LEWISNice being here. Thank you.

NNAMDIAlso with is Rob Nieweg. He is the director and regional attorney for the National Trust for Historic Preservation's Southern Field Office, which works with preservationists in Virginia, Maryland, West Virginia and the District of Columbia. Rob Nieweg, thank you for joining us.

MR. ROB NIEWEGThank you. It's great to meet you.

NNAMDINice meeting you, too. Roger, in D.C. alone, there are over 26,000 buildings, many of them residential with some sort of historic designation. This question for both of you -- first, you, Roger -- how delicate is the balance between owners' rights and preservationists' wishes?

LEWISWell, it's always a balancing challenge because the interest of the owner may not be the same as the interest of the -- well, not just the preservation community but the public in general. So I've always said every project has its own set of facts and its own pros and cons when it comes to saving things, keeping -- preserving them, keeping them exactly as they were versus making slight modifications versus major interventions to change use and finally getting to demolition.

LEWISSo it's always a challenge, and I think there's no one set of rules that will solve the problem or make the balance.

NNAMDIUse for an example, if you will, the well-known controversy over the Takoma Theatre here in Northwest Washington, where the owner of the Takoma Theatre would like to raze the theatre, which he says is not financially viable despite prior efforts, but neighborhood activists want it saved.

LEWISWell, not an unusual story. I don't know the project as well as I perhaps should, but the problem for the ownership often is that to properly preserve and reuse a property it might involve an investment that the owner isn't prepared to make. And the owner, therefore, naturally feels a little bit at odds with the community. Here's the community saying we want this preserved. He's sitting there or she's sitting there paying taxes, watching it deteriorate.

LEWISOf course, some demolition is done by neglect. We know that that's -- there's been a lot of that. I don't know that property well enough to say a lot more about it, except that it's -- it sounds like something that occurs all the time. And the theatre, my guess, is that it's a theatre that would be viable in any event, only if you can fill the seats enough times and generate revenue to cover the costs no matter what they are.

NNAMDIThe owner, Milton McGinty, said he tried that, and it didn't work. So he's now looking for something else. But, Rob, as I mentioned, there are over 26,000 buildings in historic districts with some level of restriction. How are these usually handled?

NIEWEGWell, it's worth noting, Kojo, that D.C. with its great system for local preservation regulation is one of about 2,500 across the country. So this is something that has passed constitutional muster and, in fact, it's working quite well in most communities. You know, between 90 or 95 of all permit interactions with historic preservation commissions go through without a hitch. And it's the rare exception where you have any kind of conflict.

NNAMDIRoger, you note that very few people were talking about historic preservation 50 years ago. When did we start being conscious of preservation of a society, especially here in Washington?

LEWISI think it began, really, in the late '60s, early '70s. The -- I think one of the things that catalyzed interest was the destruction of Pennsylvania Station in New York City. I think a lot of people really paid attention after that occurred. I -- the attack on the old post office building here in Washington by those -- the, for example, government agencies that wanted to tear that down...

NNAMDII remember, yeah.

LEWIS...end of the '60s, early '70s. I had just started teaching at the University of Maryland. In fact, some of us on the faculty got involved in trying to save that in -- that was 1971. I -- it was at the end of the '60s, beginning of the '70s that, I think, people's consciousness began to be raised. And I said, I think, in one of columns, I -- when I was a student of architecture in the early '60s, we never heard the word -- I mean, the word preservation -- historic preservation or the term didn't exist.

LEWISSo it wasn't on the radar at all from my perspective as an early '60s architecture student. It was really only 10 years later that I began to pay attention.

NNAMDIRob Nieweg, what are some of the reasons residents embrace or oppose introduction of historic designations in their neighborhood? A lot of people think it boils down to will I be able to paint my door whatever color I want to.

NIEWEGYou know, I think most people want to move into historic districts or seek historic district designation regulation because they love the feel and the character of those historic neighborhoods, and historic preservation regulation through ordinances and design review has proven effective to protect the property values in those communities and protect the quality of life in those communities.

NIEWEGYou know, the preservation movement has -- nationally, has reinvented itself. Fifty or 60 years ago when people heard historic preservation, they probably thought house museums with velvet ropes.

NNAMDIYep.

NIEWEGToday, they see it as a great tool for community revitalization. It's labor-intensive work, so it's a great job creator. It keeps local dollars local. And so we've really transformed from something that was about house museums and collections of silver and these kinds of things into a much more relevant and engaging movement.

NNAMDIWe'll talk about the velvet rope later in the broadcast, but first, we'd like to invite you to join the conversation. Do you live in a historic district? What has that experience been like for you? Call us at 800-433-8850. Do you work or live in an old building that has been reused in a creative way? You can tell us about that, too, 800-433-8850. Or go to our website, kojoshow.org. Send us a tweet, @kojoshow, or email to kojo@wamu.org.

NNAMDIRob, the National Trust for Historic Preservation has been around for over 60 years, so at least a few people were talking about preservation before the '70s. What does the organization do? And what sort of authority do you have?

NIEWEGSure. We were charted by Congress in 1949, and so we've got a very clear mission to promote historic preservation and -- especially promote public involvement in historic preservation. We are rooted in that tradition of house museums. We have accepted our first in 1952, Woodlawn Plantation, down in Alexandria. But more than 30 years ago, we began to experiment with using historic preservation as a tool for commercial district revitalization in small communities all across the country.

NIEWEGAnd, now, through our National Main Street Center, we've been promoting this kind of bootstrapping entrepreneurial small business-driven work. There are several neighborhoods in D.C., Baltimore and other urban areas that have also adopted the same approach. So we're...

NNAMDISo...

NIEWEGSorry.

NNAMDIGo ahead, please.

NIEWEGWe're a private nonprofit. We aren't a governmental agency. What we've got is the power of the bully pulpit, and our new president, Stephanie Meeks, is leading the way in transforming our organization. We've been focused on a number of things and over the years, including the National Main Street Center, including our work in sustainability, and so that's where we're going.

NNAMDIRoger, what are some of the criteria that are used to determine whether a building is worthy of preservation? And who makes those decisions?

LEWISLet me preface my answer by saying that one of the things that Rob is pointing out is that we now understand that preservation is about much more than just buildings. It's about historic landscapes. It's about neighborhoods. It's about districts of -- and subdistricts of cities and towns. It's about places that are -- that we tend to take for granted, but which are not necessarily buildings.

LEWISI mean, the C&O canal is an historic asset that we -- everybody appreciates. I think everybody realizes it's historic, but we're just as concerned about preserving that kind of thing as we are of buildings. The criteria -- I should say there are a number of criteria, and it depends on whom you talk with. I mean, the Department of Interior has its standards, which, by the way, are under discussion as to whether they're the right standards.

LEWISBut, generally speaking, we think of the criteria as involving historic significance because of something that has happened in history, a historical value that's not necessarily related to design. But then there is the -- there's architectural value. There's actual, you know, either because of the quality and character and representation, if you will, of a certain period in history that a work of architecture embodies or because of who the architect was.

LEWISWe tend to want to protect things that people like Frank Lloyd Wright may have designed, even if they might not be among the best work or the best examples of that architect's work. We have -- we look at things in terms of how they contribute. A building might contribute not because the building all by itself is so fabulous, but because the building is a component or part of some larger aggregation of buildings and/or landscapes that, taken together, add up to an ensemble that is worthy of preservation as an ensemble. I mean, those are...

NNAMDIHow about age? Does a building simply by virtue of being old...

LEWISWell...

NNAMDI...become historical?

LEWISWell, that's -- the answer is no. In fact, that's one of the problems. I mean -- or one of the things that's argued about all the time. I mean, there are some who might say, well, you know, once a building is a generation or two old, that's it. It's an old building. It's worth saving, period. I don't believe that. I think that age by itself is not the criterion.

NNAMDIHow about if a building is spectacularly unattractive? Could that be a criterion for a historic preservation? You know, what I'm thinking of, the Third Church of Christ, Scientist on 16th Street.

LEWISI thought you were going to attack the FBI building.

NNAMDIOh, well, that's one of my usual targets also.

LEWISI -- no. That, you know, the other thing we've learned, of course, is, beyond beauty being in the eye of the beholder, is the fact that what one particular generation perceives as unsightly or undesirable may not be the perception of a subsequent generation or an earlier generation. So I always remind people that after the Eiffel Tower was built in Paris, I mean, they hated it. They were -- it barely survived. So...

NIEWEGWell...

LEWISExcuse me, go ahead.

NIEWEGWell, I was just going to add that in New York City, when the historic preservation movement was protecting the 19th century brownstone streets, many felt that the art deco towers weren't of value. It has a lot to do with the subjective, but the criteria that you're asking about, Kojo, are objective criteria.

NNAMDIYes.

NIEWEGThe National Register of Historic Places, which is our list of those buildings that are worthy -- historic places that are worthy of preservation, it's a set of objective criteria. And the rigor with which they're applied to document that significance is really remarkable.

NNAMDIWell, I say spectacularly unattractive, but, Roger, you note that -- well, you call less aesthetically lovable buildings are often tough to get support for but can be worth saving.

LEWISOh, yes.

NNAMDIHow hard is it to convince people of that?

LEWISWell, first of all, to make the case, to get landmark status or to get a building registered, you got to state the case. You got to present a case. It requires research documentation. I and some partners -- my wife and I and some partners owned a house in Maine that we -- was listed -- we got it listed on the registry, and we had to prepare a dossier to make the case. And it had to do with a whole lot of things that we've touched on.

LEWISI think that -- again, as I said at the beginning, every building, every property has its own characteristics. And what -- either -- well, what the applicants for landmarking a building do is they essentially inventory all these characteristics. They analyze everything there is to be analyzed about that property and present that as the case statement, and, again, applying, as Rob has pointed out, these presumably objective criteria.

LEWISWe can talk some more about objectivity about a case that we've touched on before in the show. But someone then makes a decision about whether that is -- that merits landmarking status. And they -- I would say that, probably, a fairly good percentage of those that are nominated do get listed because it's an arduous process. Rob, is that a fair...

NIEWEGRight. It's an arduous process, but it's also one that doesn't happen in isolation. So a smart property owner seeking the kind of incentives you can get by historic designation would approach the professional staff of the Historic Preservation Commission and ask a lot of questions before engaging in all that hard work.

NNAMDII want to go to the telephones because I think Ben has a question related to what you just talked about, Rob. Here is Ben in Washington. Ben, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BENHi, Kojo. I live in Foxhall Village in Georgetown, which is a newly designated historic district. And what -- actually, I was just recently doing renovations on my house, which was far more expensive than I ever thought it would be.

NNAMDIAlways is.

BENWhat I'm thinking is a number of people are not able, financially, to afford the renovations or -- and are not doing the necessary renovations to keep their house in working order, most notably replacing the roofs with slate. And it seems like our neighborhood is now turning into "A Tale Of Two Cities," where the newer people that are moving in are renovating their houses, and the older people are leaving their houses to fall apart.

BENAnd my second question is the historic trust like the (word?) Trust and the Georgetown Trust, are they still offering the same tax benefits that were available a few years earlier? My understanding is they're no longer available.

NNAMDICan you respond to that second question, Rob Nieweg?

NIEWEGYeah, the tax benefits related to easing properties and then taking federal tax credits. And we would welcome the opportunity to talk with any property owners who are looking at protecting the -- for the long term, their properties. So we would welcome a call from Ben to our legal department to talk about that kind of (unintelligible).

NNAMDICan you put out a phone number on the air?

NIEWEGSure. 202-588-6035 is the best number.

NNAMDIAnd, Roger?

LEWISWell, I think it's important to note that it's not -- the Georgetown Trust doesn't give tax benefits.

NIEWEGThat's right.

LEWISThese are tax benefits that are generally federal or sometimes state and local. But there are two aspects of it. Some are -- I think Rob is talking about achieving easements, getting easements on properties that -- historic easements, which is one thing. The other thing, of course, is the tax code or the tax laws over the years have also been written to encourage investment. And this is, really, a very, very critical part of the historic preservation movement and preservation in general, which is that it is -- can be very costly.

LEWISI think the caller was obviously alluding to that. And so we have, through tax policy, as we've done with so many other things through tax policy, we have tried to provide incentives for owners and developers to actually invest in preservation. You get a tax benefit, a credit and write-offs for investing in properties. Again, you can't get it just because it's an old property. You know, it has to be a designated historic landmark property.

NNAMDIBen, you also seem to be concerned about what you described as a tale of two cities?

BENYeah, the neighborhood, I see the people that have been in the neighborhood for 30, 40 years, that don't have the resources to renovate, are letting their houses crumble to the ground, whereas that some of the newer people that have moved in the neighborhood have put the capital in investments and...

NNAMDIWell, I'm not sure what that has to do with historic preservation, though.

BENWell, a primary example, I had to put a slate roof back on my house. The original roof was slate. The owner before me put a shingled roof on. And now I had to go back to the slate. So instead of it being a $10,000-repair, it was a $35,000-repair.

NNAMDIOh, I understand what you're saying, so that -- does that mean that other people in the neighborhood whose roofs have been replaced are required to replace those roofs with slate?

BENYes.

NNAMDIAh, Roger, that's...

LEWISWell, sounds very familiar since I live in a house, which is among -- and with a bunch of other houses where we have some rules and regulations about what owners can and can't do, although they're not based on historic preservation criteria. I mean, he's identified, again, the problem. It goes back to the Takoma Park Theatre problem.

LEWISThere's -- there are property owners who just don't have the funds to do the kind of maintenance and repairs and restoration work that one might want to do. And so you get kind of demolition by attrition, and that's a problem. And what to do about it is a challenge.

NNAMDIBen, thank you very much for your call. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, if you have called, stay on the line. If the lines are busy, go to our website, kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there. We're talking about historic preservation. 800-433-8850 is the number to call, or you can simply send us a tweet, @kojoshow. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking historic preservation with Roger Lewis, who joins us on a regular basis. He's an architect who writes the "Shaping the City" column for The Washington Post. He's also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland College Park. Joining us for this conversation is Rob Nieweg.

NNAMDIHe is director and regional attorney for the National Trust for Historic Preservation Southern Field Office, which works with preservationists in Virginia, Maryland, West Virginia and the District of Columbia. We do have a lot of callers, so I'd like to get back to the telephones. Here is Alex in Frederick, Md. Alex, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ALEXHi, Kojo, I want to touch base real quickly. I live in Frederick City's Historic District, and I've done a lot of general contracting in the historic district, which is, you know, strictly regulated by Frederick City's Historic District guidelines, the commission's guidelines. And it's astounding to be a difference between how things operate, for instance, in D.C. versus cities that had to evolve directly from the Department of Interiors' guidance.

ALEXThey're on rules and regulations, which Frederick City has done. I mean, Frederick City spent the last 10 years essentially trying to revamp the historic district guidelines so that we have a community that's not "A Tale Of Two Cities." It's a community where, if you don't break the bank, if you have to do unexpected renovations to your home, that we maintain the historic character of the city. Roofs are an excellent example.

ALEXIn the city of Frederick, to my knowledge, no one that has a slate roof has ever been able to replace it with anything but slate. However, if the roof has been replaced prior to the guidelines, say 15, 18 years ago, there's a good chance the city is not going to call you on wanting to put something back that's not original slate. So Frederick City has done a very good job of kind of flexing on the guidelines.

ALEXThe big drivers that we see as an issue in Frederick City is windows and doors. An excellent example is that Frederick City will allow aluminum storm screens, aluminum storm panes. However, they will not allow, no matter how similar in appearance or how much work goes into them, similar pane replacements, even into original sashes, which seems -- you know, if you look at it from an apparent standpoint, it's ridiculous.

ALEXYou end up with 50, you know, aluminum storm panes (unintelligible) original glass you won't see. So that's been a really -- that's a biggie for homeowners...

NNAMDII'm glad you mentioned that, Alex, because to tell the truth, Roger and Rob, it would appear that a lot of the phone calls and emails we've been getting have been about windows. Why is that?

LEWISWell, simply, windows are very integral and critical part of facades. And facades are generally what most people see and think about when they think of buildings if they themselves don't occupy them.

NNAMDIYeah, a lot of people have been calling about that. But I'm glad our caller, Alex, mentioned Frederick because, Rob, the U.S. is a young nation. But it's my understanding that other countries are looking to the U.S. when it comes to at least one aspect of preservation, and that is levering historic preservation to spur economic revitalization. So Frederick reminded me of that.

NIEWEGThat's true. And Frederick is a great historic district and one of many cities in Maryland taking full advantage of historic preservation. You know, internationally, there are preservation organizations, NGOs working together, and for some time, they were working on this sort of irreplaceable, internationally stellar, historic places.

NIEWEGBut, now, there's a greater focus on efforts that need to be made at the national, rather than in international, regional and local level in advocacy, in responding to climate change, these kinds of things. And so there's a great deal of work on an international level. Oftentimes, international preservation organizations are looking to the American preservationists for insight into economic revitalization and historic preservation as a job creator.

NIEWEGYou know, I'm interested in the comment from Frederick City in the specific references to windows. Windows are extraordinarily important in terms of architectural expression. So you look at a building, and you're seeing the fenestration. But when people want to weatherize their buildings, they often rush to replace windows that won't pay them back in environmental and economic benefits for many, many years.

NIEWEGThese same buildings oftentimes aren't insulated. And we got a lot of great information on our website about weatherizing historic buildings that don't require completely blasting out all the original character of the buildings. And, Kojo, our website is www.preservationnation.org. And I encourage everybody to go look there.

NNAMDII will provide a link to that website at our website, kojoshow.org. But, Roger speaking internationally, over half of the world's population lives in cities and towns now, and that number's only predicted to grow. It's my understanding that older countries are still struggling with this issue. How are cities across the globe managing growth while maintaining historic city centers?

LEWISWell, some good, some bad, some average. I mean, the poster child for not doing it very well is China. My -- I've been there, but my wife has been there many times. And my -- I've read a lot of articles about it. Evidently, the Chinese have really been going around tearing down tremendous number of communities and buildings to build new things and not worrying too much about "historic preservation."

LEWISI think that -- I think there are a lot of other cities where the historic patrimony, the -- is -- they just take for granted, that you -- they're not going to take that stuff away, and they're going to take care of it in part because, getting back to Rob's point, it's why a lot of people go to places like Paris or London or Amsterdam or you name it. I think also, again, a lot of the things that are historic in many cities in other parts of the world are much older.

NNAMDITake Saint Petersburg, Russia, for instance.

LEWISYep. Yeah, where I've hung out a lot. I mean, Saint Petersburg...

LEWISSaint Petersburg is a classic case, where there are literally thousands in historic centers, which, by the way, is a world monument, designated world monument city. I mean, the whole center of the city is landmarks, so to speak. There are thousands and thousands of old palaces, things built in the 18th and 19th century that are in terrible condition. They're having subsidence problems. There's foundation problems. The city is sinking.

LEWISThese things are not insulated. They are very expensive just to restore. Remember restoration and preservation is different. That's different than adaptive reuse. There's a very large group of citizens in the city of Saint Petersburg who believe that nothing should be changed, that even partitions, you know, the original interior should not be touched.

LEWISThere -- Saint Petersburg is a very good case of a city that is absolutely committed totally to preserving, essentially, its architectural heritage, but also would very much like to have a whole lot of investors show up and get into these buildings and stabilize them, just stabilize them, never mind putting -- completing new uses in them. But, in fact, to reuse a lot of these villas, you have to make some changes, particularly on the inside.

NNAMDIBack to the telephones. Here is Kate in Falls Church, Va. Kate, you are on the air. Go ahead, please.

KATEHi. I just went close to the Pentagon, so we may not be able to hear each other at this point. But you had said earlier in the show, Kojo, that for a lot of people, for historic preservation, you just have to do with -- are they going to be allowed to paint their house the way they want, things like that.

NNAMDIYep.

KATEAnd in the city of Baltimore, there's a terrific historical example without the unintended consequences of historic preservation. The neighborhood of Falls Church was to be taken down to connect what is now Route 83 and one is I-95. They were going to run I-95 right through the city.

NNAMDIMm hmm.

KATESo the neighborhood, which was the home of old sea captains and a place where lots of seamen got off boats in the 18th and early part of the 19th century, decided they could save their neighborhood by seeking historic preservation designations, which they did. At which point, many of you will know, it became a neighborhood that was desired, renovated, gentrified and, in large part, chased out the folks who've done the work to make it a historic preservation site in the very beginning.

KATEJust by sheer economics, whether they could afford to keep their homes, whether they were reasonable rents, that kind of thing. So I think there are lessons that we all need to be mindful of about what we do with this great tool of historic preservation.

NNAMDIThe Falls Point neighborhood in Baltimore is what Kate was talking about. Familiar with that, Rob?

NIEWEGWell, I am, and it's, you know, a major tourist attraction right down there on the harbor. It's worth going and seeing other neighborhoods in Baltimore, which have a wonderful opportunity for multiple kinds of housing. So you have the major buildings on the avenues, which provide, you know upper-end housing and row houses, which provide a little more middle class, and then some alley and carriage houses which provide for some starter houses, perhaps for people just staring with their first homes.

NIEWEGSo, you know, I look to Baltimore for its main street communities, for some of these great row house neighborhoods. That's where I go in Baltimore.

NNAMDIKate, thank you so much for your call. Here is Steven in Washington, D.C. Steven, your turn.

STEVENHi, Kojo, thanks for having me on the show. My question is, how do you handle, or how does the board handle when developers move in -- like, if you could make Northeast Capitol Hill, you'll see where developers have brought up the entire blocks of 19th century housing and demolished them. How did they get -- how they can do that, you know?

STEVENAnd the other thing is, what I've also noticed in Washington is that they will buy a track of houses and let them just rot and then have them condemned and torn down. How does the board -- how does the historic board handle that?

NNAMDIAny idea, Roger?

LEWISWell, we need to sort things out a little bit here. The...

NNAMDIPlease.

LEWISThe board -- I'm not sure when he says board...

NNAMDIWhat board he's talking about?

LEWISYeah, I mean, there's -- we have in Washington what's called the Historic Preservation Review Board and the HPRB. They're responsible for reviewing proposals for either granting landmark status to a property in the District of Columbia or for reviewing any changes that someone wants to on already landmarked property. I don't -- I'm not sure that -- I don't know whether he's talking about that board or...

NIEWEGI think, probably, that's the board he talking about.

LEWISI mean, there's the Board of Zoning Adjustment. There -- I mean, the -- to get -- there's no question, to get permission to demolish what are considered historic properties, you need to convince the HPRB that that's a good idea. I don't know the case in point that the caller is referring to. But the second thing he pointed out, the sort of demolition by neglect, that's a tough one. I mean, that -- you know, that -- no one authorizes that. That's done by neglect, by definition.

LEWISAnd that -- what, theoretically, should happen is -- and I don't know the law as well as probably as Rob does -- but I -- you know, at some point, the city can step in if properties are being neglected and starting to constitute a hazard, a nuisance. I believe the public sector can take -- can intervene.

NIEWEGWell, it is the case of most communities and their building codes, separate from historic preservation, have minimum maintenance requirements. And so, if your neighbor stops maintaining his home, you can complain or the code official will come around and cite that party, put a lien on the house and step in and fix the building there. So these are broader urban problems.

NNAMDISteven, thank you very much for your call. We're going to take another short break. If you've called, stay on the line. We still have lines open at 800-433-8850. Do you work or live in an old building that has been reused in a creative way? You can call to tell us about that, 800-433-8850. Send us an email to kojo@wamu.org. Or simply go to our website, kojoshow.org, and join the conversation there. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIRoger Lewis is with us, and we're talking historic preservation. Roger is an architect who writes the "Shaping the City" column for The Washington Post. He's also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland College Park. Joining us in studio, also, is Rob Nieweg. He is director and regional attorney for the National Trust for Historic Preservation's Southern Field Office, which works with preservationists in Virginia, Maryland, West Virginia and the District of Columbia.

NNAMDIRoger, I understand that you just got back from a trip to Louisville, Ky. How are cities of different sizes across the U.S. balancing growth and preservation? And what were your observations about Louisville, Ky., in historic preservation?

LEWISWell, I think every city in town is grappling with the issue of preservation versus development, pressures to change and, in some cases, demolish things. But I think Louisville in -- I was very impressed with Louisville. It's a bigger city than I thought. It's about the size of, in population, of the District of Columbia. That is the city itself. The metropolitan area is about 1.3 million people.

LEWISThey have a wonderful legacy of iron-front facades that they've preserved along Main and Market Street. They have recognized that these are, in fact, not just aesthetic and architectural assets, but they're economic assets. They are very anxious to have tenants move in to these places, and many of them have been occupied with new activities. And it was -- I -- it was pretty lively downtown, and I'm talking about the historic downtown...

NNAMDISure.

LEWIS...the part of the city near the river, near the Ohio River. The city -- historic preservation, in other words, is a very important component, if you will, of the public policy of that city to continue keeping the city growing. It has grown about 8 percent since the 2006...

NNAMDIAnd speaking of lively, you had some lively conversations there about historic preservation and its relationship, if you will, to gentrification.

LEWISYeah, that was -- one of the guests on the panel with me was -- talked a lot about gentrification and the fact that one of the things that has contributed to preserving properties is the willingness of people who move in to a neighborhood from somewhere else, as was alluded to earlier, fixing up the properties, maintaining them. And, in particular, that's occurred in Washington, as well as Louisville.

LEWISI think the -- one of the things we did point out was that gentrification, in itself, is not about dislocation. It does not force people out. What's happening, for example, around U Street and 14th Street in Washington, D.C., gentrification is going on. But what it really is about is a change in the demography, the nature of people who are occupying, either renters or owners, coming in and people who have been living there for one or two or three generations.

LEWISSome are staying because they love that area, or they decide, well, you know, I can sell this property for a lot of money now. I'm going to move to some place that I've been thinking about moving to. They're not being forced out. That is a myth, that they're forced to move.

NNAMDIBut there are some who would argue that owners converting to condos, where people who are low and moderate income lived, are, in fact, contributing to causing some people to be forced out. But it's my understanding that the conversation that you were having had to do with the fact that historic preservation, in and of itself, does not lead to gentrification.

LEWISThat's right.

NNAMDIYour comments on this, Rob?

NIEWEGWell, sure. I was going to say that in towns across the country, times have changed. And our old natural enemies, the Chambers of Commerce and the business community now are selling their towns based upon heritage and historic districts. And they're -- and the quality of life that comes from living in that or working in that kind of a setting. And they're promoting these places to visitors and new residents and new businesses by selling historic preservation and selling historic neighborhoods.

NNAMDIThe National Trust also is moving away from the, as you mentioned earlier, the so-called velvet-rope approach. How is the way that visitors experience historic sites changing?

NIEWEGIt's a radical reinvention of the historic house museum. We all owe a debt of gratitude to the people who saved places like Mount Vernon and Monticello, these marvelous landmarks. But visitation and people's desires for tourism have changed. And, now, historic sites, like Woodlawn plantation, our first site, are radically reinventing themselves. What was once a velvet-rope house museum there, is being reinvented as the arcadia center for sustainable food and agriculture.

NIEWEGSo what was a farm is now being turned back into an experimental farm. It's the closest working experimental farm to the center of D.C., and I encourage everybody to get out there. But that's a place where the Neighborhood Restaurant Group and the National Trust for Historic Preservation are combining to engage the visitor, to pull people into the process of experimental farming and agriculture to, as they say, grow good food and grow good farmers.

LEWISAnd urban agriculture is in our future, I think. You know, I just want to mention one other thing. There's -- Cultural Tourism is a group here in D.C. I mean, their whole mission is about getting people to understand that their whole -- their neighborhoods of the city, many neighborhoods of the city that are, in fact, potential cultural visitation destinations that they want people to come and see. And what they're seeing, in part, is the actual fabric of the city that's been preserved.

NIEWEGThat's right.

NNAMDIOn to the telephones again. Here is Suzanne in Washington, D.C. Suzanne, your turn.

SUZANNEThank you for taking my call, Kojo. I'm just in a building that is celebrating its 100th birthday this year. Thirty-five years ago, it was converted to a condominium. At some point, we, in the early years, before Kalorama was named a historic district, we put the triple-track storm windows that you and I know from our childhood...

NNAMDIYep.

SUZANNE...on to the building. And then about eight years ago, we decided that those were not energy-efficient, and we wanted to put in thermal-paned windows. It took us more than two years to get approval from the Historic Preservation people. Now, during those two -- and all we wanted to do was to change the windows. It wasn't as if we wanted to put in some other style. We wanted double-hung windows.

SUZANNEWe didn't want to put in Anderson crank-out windows. We didn't want to put in ones where there were little panes. We wanted to replace what we had with something that was double- or triple-paned. It took, as I said, over two years. This was a three-story, 21-unit building that was self-managed. So you're talking about people, who are professionals, who are having to take their time off from work and go down and meet with the Historic Preservation bureaucrats.

SUZANNEDuring those two years, we were each, the 21 Kaloramists, paying higher utility bills. Now, you could say, well, you've been paying the higher utility bills for the 27 years that it had taken your building to reach this decision. But it's like everything else in life. Once you decide to do something to save yourself money, you don't want somebody saying to you, just throw all these hoops, so we can tell you what you can do.

NNAMDIWell, Suzanne -- Suzanne, there might be another side to that coin. Rob, green building is big and people want to save energy, and preservation is apparently being closely tied to sustainability. Is that a relatively new link, given what Suzanne has been telling us? Or has that been the case all along?

NIEWEGWell, I guess, we would say that historic buildings, because they exist, they've already been built, that they're the greenest buildings around. And we've got lots of great information on the Web about weatherization. You know, the Historic Preservation Commissions are made up of volunteer, civic-minded people. And in the best case, those commissions are staffed by expert professionals. And D.C. has one of the best sets.

NIEWEGDavid Maloney and his team there are wonderful. That doesn't say that there aren't delays. And there can be misunderstandings and delays, but, by and large, these expert staffs are there to help property owners avoid problems and, when problems crop up, to solve those challenges.

NIEWEGSo the farther we get into looking closely at the ways to make historic buildings, to modernize them and to make them better weatherized without losing their character-defining features, the farther we get into that research, the better off we are, and the easier it will be to keep these kinds of problems that the caller refers to, keep these kinds of problems from happening again.

NNAMDIThe feel of a place, Roger, can be intangible and hard to define. How do you preserve an atmosphere? One gets the impression that part of the problem that Suzanne and others were having was that somebody somewhere in authority felt that changing the windows -- and we've talked about windows already on this broadcast -- would, in a way, change the feel of the place. How do you preserve the atmosphere and still do what people like Suzanne like to do?

LEWISWell, Rob just used a key phrase -- character-defining. One of the -- I think what everybody pretty much agrees on is that before you do anything, you have to analyze what it is -- the building -- let's take a building -- and differentiate between those elements that define the character, that define the historic character of that building versus elements that, perhaps, are not character-defining.

LEWISThat's a judgment call. That involves, as Rob said, some experts, some people who are, frankly, experienced and knowledgeable in architecture and history and et cetera, and also technologists, looking at the building and coming up with an inventory that is okay. The windows are character-defining. It may be more than just the windows. It may be the actual configuration of the sash.

LEWISIt may or may not be, but I -- if you really think about certain buildings -- I mean, if you look at the Taj Mahal, you know, there's probably not a square centimeter of it that you could take away and not feel that you've compromised the character of the building. So, again, there's no -- there's not one size fits all, but there is a need in every building that you're going to preserve.

LEWISYou have to identify what are the character-defining attributes because those are the things you want to preserve, if they are indeed character-defining. Obviously, it's a spectrum. There may be some that are sort of character-defining and some elements that are, really, not at all, that are dispensable.

NNAMDIAnd, Suzanne, thank you very much for your call. Speaking of what needs to be preserved, Rob, we can't seem to get enough of BRAC around here, base realignment and closure. We've been doing a series on it. But it's my understanding that you are at Fort Monroe, an Army base that's closing in Hampton, Va. What are your hopes for that site?

NIEWEGWell, I love the question that you have about creative, adaptive reuse and people…

NNAMDIOh, please...

NIEWEG...living and working in places like Fort Monroe. It's a 565-acre national historic landmark. It's a marvelous -- the center of it is this marvelous, masonry fort surrounded by a moat. I don't know how many of us have crossed a moat recently to go into a fort -- fantastic place. But it's also fundamentally a village. It's a little city that was developed by the Army over the last 200-some years.

NIEWEGAnd on Sep. 15, it's going to revert to the Commonwealth of Virginia. So it will no longer be used by the Army. So what will it be used for? And it's this wonderful opportunity for new uses, creative, new, adaptive reuses of even compartments -- what they call casements of that fortress. And probably the most wonderful thing about Fort Monroe is the layers of history there.

NIEWEGIt is the place, Old Point Comfort, where the first enslaved African-Americans were put ashore. It's also the place in 1861 where slavery began to die with the wonderful contraband story, which was the feature article in the Preservation magazine a couple of months ago. So layers of military and African-American heritage, all in a place where people will continue to live and work and, we hope, visit from across the world.

NNAMDISimilar challenge for the Walter Reed Army Medical Center moving out in the District, but we discussed that this past Monday, which gives me the opportunity to bring Barbara in Alexandria, Va., into the conversation. Barbara, we only have about a minute left. But go ahead, please.

BARBARAOkay. Well, I just want to tell everybody about a wonderful event to look at historical homes and to be inside of them and see how they renovated them and what they did. And this is the Twig Old Town Alexandria 70th Historic Homes Tour. We're going to have six or seven homes. And, therefore, just some of them are small, some of them are big. But they've all been restored with this wonderful extension -- historical detail. And this is to benefit Alexandria Hospital. It's a wonderful event, Sept. 24.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call. I'm glad you said something nice about Alexandria because we're going to have your mayor on The Politics Hour tomorrow, and we're going to burn him.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call. And I'm afraid that's about all the time we have. Roger Lewis is our regular guest. He's an architect who writes the "Shaping the City" column for The Washington Post. He's also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland College Park. Roger, always a pleasure.

LEWISLikewise. Thank you.

NNAMDIRob Nieweg is the director and regional attorney for the National Trust for Historic Preservation Southern Field Office. They work with preservationists in Virginia, Maryland, West Virginia and the District of Columbia. Rob, thank you so much for dropping by.

NIEWEGThank you. Appreciate the opportunity.

NNAMDIAnd thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.