MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, John Hancock had perhaps the most distinctive and largest signature of his time. That may be why we now say, put your John Hancock here. We look at signatures through history and the personal style and authority conveyed through our handwriting.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIBut first, for years Muslim groups have asked that Montgomery County schools recognized at least one major Islamic holy day. Earlier this week, Montgomery County's public school board responded, voting not to add holidays but rather to remove all references to religious holidays from the school calendar. The board says that days off will remain the same as in past years but, for example, Christmas break will not be winter break.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIThe decision seems to have displeased at least two groups of people, those who'd like to see the holidays -- the days recognized as religious holidays and Muslim groups who wanted to add Muslim holidays to the calendar. Joining me now in studio is Matt Bush. He is WAMU's Maryland reporter. Matt Bush, thank you for joining us.

MR. MATT BUSHAlways a pleasure.

NNAMDIMatt, tell us about the decision by the Montgomery County school board on Tuesday.

BUSHWell, being faced with this -- they had to set the school calendar for the following school year. And with the more and more -- the Muslim community asking more and more to have these holidays added, this was studied two years ago. They decided not to do that because their sort of litmus test for that is absenteeism on those days. And if it reaches a certain threshold that a state law says then they can say that this -- we have so many people, so many students and staff off that we should not have school this day.

BUSHAnd when they studied it those days, those two Muslim holidays two years ago, they found that their absentee rates did not change really from their daily absentee rates. So they decided not to. So when it came to this year -- or to Tuesday, so looking at the next school year, two holidays fell on the same day, Yam Kippur and Eid al-Adha fall on the same day next September.

BUSHSo when coming up with the school calendar, the school superintendent Dr. Starr tried to come up with this sort of compromise by saying on that day we will drop the reference to Yom Kippur and will just be on this day, since both religions celebrate a holiday that day. Didn't change whether schools were still going to be closed. They were going to be closed. They just had to come with that.

BUSHSo that was his recommendation to the board. The board makes the decision on that though. So once it went to the board they decided -- Rebecca Smondrowski was the board member who came up with the plan to just drop references to all religious affiliations for the days off. And, as you said, that means now Christmas break is winter break, Easter is now spring break, and that's the decision they made. And they've noted that in some other districts in this area that this is also true. It's been true in Fairfax County, Lowden County, D. C., Arlington County. So that was their rationale.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is the number to call if you'd like to participate in this conversation. Do you think religious holidays should be designated as such on school calendars or are you okay with just having them referred to as holidays, winter, spring and the like, as some school systems are doing, 800-433-8850? You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Joining us now by phone from Baltimore, Saqib Ali. He is director of government relations for the Maryland Chapter of the Council on American Islamic Relations. He's also co-chair of the Equality for Eid Coalition and a former Maryland state delegate. Delegate Saqib Ali, thank you for joining us.

DELEGATE SAQIB ALIHi, how you doing, Kojo?

NNAMDIDoing well. You are a leader in the Muslim community and part of the coalition seeking changes to the Montgomery County religious calendar. What have Muslim groups been asking Montgomery County school board?

ALIWell, they've just been asking for equality actually. The other established religions have their holidays in the school system. The schools are closed, Christmas, Easter, Good Friday, Easter Monday, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur. And we asked that the -- similarly that the Muslim holidays be school closings. My daughter is, you know, playing in the streets with our neighbors on their -- all these little girls are wonderful and beautiful and they play together nicely. But, you know, my daughters get different treatment from the school system than others.

NNAMDITell us a little about the Muslim holidays you're referencing. What Muslim holidays were you asking for the schools to be closed for?

ALISure. Well, I mean, the issue -- there's a -- what we call Eid al-Adha, there are two major Muslim holidays in a year. And they move slightly for the next several years. Only one of them was during the school year. The other one was in summer break. So the one that was in the school year was Eid al-Adha. And for a long time we've been asking this for the school system. And we've sort of been rebuffed. But this upcoming year provided, like, a really special case and a great opportunity to work this issue.

ALIYou see, the school system's argument is that, you know, well, we can't do it for constitutional reasons and other reasons, which are, in fact, I'll explain later, not quite valid. But on this day next year September 23, 2015, the schools are already going to be closed for Yom Kippur. And it just happened to also be a Muslim holiday. So we said, hey, you're already closing the schools. The only thing we want is on the calendar when you close the schools for Yom Kippur is just have it say Yom Kippur and Eid al-Adha. It seemed like a very reasonable request.

ALIWe're not asking for any operational change. We're just asking for a change on a piece of paper. And they couldn't bring themselves to do that. And as a way to I think just make themselves feel better or make themselves feel like they weren't being mean or something they said, well okay, we'll strip the names from the other religious holidays. Well, that's kind of too cute by half because simply stripping the names and keeping everything the same changes nothing.

ALIAnd as -- you know, there was no legal issue, there was no constitutional issue with just renaming a holiday when already closing the school. So I'm not sure why they did that. It doesn't seem like a very good idea.

NNAMDILater in the broadcast we'll be hearing from two members of the Montgomery County public schools board but Saqib Ali, obviously you, as a leader in the Muslim community and others are unhappy with the school board's decision. What is your recourse in this case?

ALIWell, we don't want to talk about recourse yet. We want to talk about what the decision was. It just happened two days ago and we don't know how this is all going to play out. I think it'd be a really good idea if they could reconsider their motion. But, you know, there's other things that they can do and we can ask for.

ALIListen, Kojo, Matt mentioned this idea about absenteeism and thresholds. One of the major, major complaints that we have with the Montgomery County public school system is that there is no threshold. They have not established a threshold for absenteeism in which they'll close the schools. And we've been asking them for three years. And I hope when the school board officials are on later, you ask them three very important questions, because I've been asking and I haven't got an answer.

ALIThose question are why is there no absenteeism threshold? When -- what is absenteeism threshold? Why isn't there one after we've been asking for three years? And when -- if there isn't one now, when will you create one? They cite...

NNAMDIThat's only one -- oh, are those all three questions or is that two parts, three parts of the first question?

ALIIt's kind of a two-part question. Why is there no threshold after we've been asking for so long? And when will you create one? And these two questions are -- they really are very afraid of answering. And the reason is because they know that once they create a threshold, either the Muslim community will hit that threshold or they won't, but they will not have to look at each holiday and judge it against a fixed threshold. And they don't want to do that because what they'd like to do -- what they'd prefer to do is cherry pick the holidays that they want. And so they left a very fuzzy and open-ended criteria purposely so. Because if there's a fuzzy open-ended criteria -- if there's no fixed criteria, the Muslim community can never hit it.

NNAMDIDo you know what the level of absenteeism is during the Eid al-Adha religious observers and how it compares to the absenteeism rate during other religious holidays?

ALIThe absenteeism rate for Eid al-Adha last year was 5.6 percent. We do not know now -- and this is the other part of the problem -- we do not know what the other absentee -- other faiths absenteeism is because there's no school. How do you test how much absenteeism there will be on a day when there's no school? What the MCPS's decision is -- what they say is, we tested this back in 1970 and that -- we had a -- we gave a holiday then. And so it becomes a holiday in perpetuity. And logically that doesn't make sense.

NNAMDIIn case you're just joining us, we're talking about the move made by the Montgomery County school board to stop references to religious holidays. We're talking with Saqib Ali. He's director of government relations for the Maryland Chapter of the Council on American Islamic Relations and co-chair of the Equality for Eid Coalition. Matt Bush is a WAMU Maryland reporter. You can call us at 800-433-8850. Matt, not just the Muslim community is unhappy here, but also those who feel religious holidays should be named and recognized. Can you talk about the backlash this decision has triggered?

BUSHIt seems it's gotten backlash. It seems that in their quest to try to not upset more than one or two groups they seem to decide, we're just going to upset everybody with what we do and believing, I guess, that was the fairest way to handle this. But they -- yes, there's a lot of Christian groups who were saying, you're taking -- because of something completely different, you're now taking all references to Christian holidays off the school calendar. So the days off are still the same but again, there's just no reference to any religion on there.

BUSHAnd they -- you know, certain holidays are also national holidays that are, you know, with religious, like Christmas and Easter so they have to be off those days. But now -- just about everywhere.

NNAMDIState law requires them to be off on those days.

BUSHState law requires -- and federal law agree, but at the same time it seems that just in their quest to try to not upset so many people, they've just decided the best way was just to upset everybody.

NNAMDIHere is...

ALIAnd by the way, many people think those state laws are unconstitutional.

NNAMDIBecause they violate the separation of church and state?

ALIYeah, there's a state law that says that all public schools in Maryland must be closed on Good Friday and the Monday after Easter. A lot of people think that...

BUSHYes, and that was discussed. The Monday after Easter was what some of the board members discussed and said never quite understood why that was...

NNAMDISaqib Ali, has that state law been challenged?

ALINot that I know of, not the Monday after Easter.

NNAMDIHere is David in Tyson's Corner, Va. David, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DAVIDHi, Kojo. Thank you. I would like to express support for the decision but not for the reason that they made it. It seems that in the year 2014 the fact that we're only just now separating church and state is sort of ridiculous to me, that this should've been done -- you know, this was done in 1789. There should be no reference to religious holidays in any government institution, the schools particularly, as they're dealing with children.

DAVIDAnd if people want to keep -- stay home from school on a given day because of their particular mythological beliefs, then okay, they've got to make up their homework but that should be it.

NNAMDISo you don't believe that schools should be closed at all during these times of year, regardless of how many people are likely to be absent, both students and staff?

DAVIDCorrect.

NNAMDISaqib Ali, how do you feel about that position?

ALIWell, I mean, it's actually a logically consistent and very defensible position. But that's not the position of the MCPS. The MCPS says, we're going to actually observe these religious holidays. We're going to close the schools. We're not going to have any logical and hard test. We're just going to do it based on some invalid data. But we're just not going to call them those religious holidays.

ALISo what David's saying, you know, if you're a secularist or even if you're a strict constitutionalist, yeah, I mean, but that's not what MCPS is doing.

NNAMDIMatt, removing any reference to religious holidays but still closing on Rosh Hashanah, Christmas, Easter is not a new solution for our region's schools. You pointed out that it's done in the district, Fairfax, Arlington, Lowden. They have a winter break rather than the Christmas holiday. Do we know...

ALIYeah, it's not done in Fairfax. They don't close on Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanah.

NNAMDIOkay. Let ms scratch...

BUSHYeah, I think Fairfax does. I think Lowden County doesn't.

NNAMDIWell, do we know why it has been less contentious in those jurisdictions or why it has been so contentious in Montgomery County?

BUSHIt's very interesting. I think part of it is that Montgomery County has a reputation of being very PC. And I think some people one, might be surprised that they hadn't done this already but two, you know, because of the reputation of being very PC, I think they're a very easy lightening rod. They're an easy market for people to say who want to -- you know, for the people who are upset over this, I think it's a very -- for removing all the religious holiday, particularly Christian holidays, I think for the people who get very upset by this, Montgomery County becomes sort of an easy target.

NNAMDIWhat's next for you, Saqib Ali, for your organization?

ALIWe're just evaluating where things are going right now. We don't really know and we think it's still -- you know, possibly still playing out. You know, there's a lot of people speaking out. I've seen just today Congressman Delaney issued a statement criticizing the board of education's action. I wish they would perhaps reconsider their decision. Or if they won't reconsider their decision, you know, at least what they could do is, you know, sit down and hash out these decisions with a work group.

ALIYou know, one of the things that's -- one of the ways -- one of the things that's really upset me is that, you know, I've requested meetings with the superintendent for two or three years now. He's never once spoken to me. I can't get -- it's very difficult for me to speak to the board of education members. When they have issues that they want to discuss, for example, with other stakeholders, for example teachers unions, what they do is they call a meeting, they sit around a table and they hash out these issues privately, you know, behind closed doors and discuss them.

NNAMDIThey don't call you, though.

ALIThey've never -- no. The superintendent has never spoken a word to me.

NNAMDISaqib Ali...

ALII've tried to arrange a meeting with him and I've gotten his staff. But, you know, there's no openness to even sit around and find a workable solution or find a compromise.

NNAMDISaqib Ali is director of government relations for the Maryland Chapter of the Council on American Islamic Relations. He's also co-chair of the Equality for Eid Coalition. He's a former Maryland state delegate. Saqib Ali, thank you so much for joining us. Joining us now by phone is Philip Kauffman, president of the Montgomery County Public School's board of education and Patricia O'Neill, vice-president of the aforementioned board of education.

NNAMDIPhilip Kauffman, I'll start with you. Thank you for joining us.

MR. PHILIP KAUFFMANGreat to be here.

NNAMDIWhat were the issues that the board had to weigh in making this decision to remove religious references from the calendar?

KAUFFMANWell, as you indicated previously, this is the request to recognize Eid has been a longstanding one. We've been dealing with this issue for several years. We looked at it previously and we had gotten legal advice in terms of what we can and can't do in terms of recognition of religious holidays. And quite frankly, I know Mr. Ali talks about this being about equality with Christianity and Judaism but the legal advice is that it's not about equality. It's about whether or not you have an operational impact on your school systems and with regards to absenteeism or whatever factors need to be considered, you know, to make an operational impact.

KAUFFMANThat was what was done with the Jewish community back in the '70s when the decision was made to close for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. And there was a high level of absenteeism, both staff and students. The decision was made then. I think there was over 15 percent absences. The decision was made there weren't enough subs. There was a cost impact. Testing couldn't occur properly. Too many -- you know, there were some schools where over 50 -- there were over 50 percent absences.

KAUFFMANAnd based on all the operational decisions at the time, that superintendent made a recommendation to that board of education to close for those days. And those days have continued. So when...

NNAMDIHad that information you just mentioned on the air ever been shared with Saqib Ali and his organization? You specifically mentioned 15 percent...

KAUFFMAN...15 percent.

NNAMDI...15 percent or more...

KAUFFMAN...and 50 percent in some schools. And yes, that information has been shared with Mr. Ali.

NNAMDIOkay. Here's Matt Bush.

BUSHMr. Kauffman, during the meeting Tuesday right before the vote was taken, you were the last person who spoke, and you spoke in very strong support of this move. Talk about that.

KAUFFMANWell, I mean, I think that this is about being respective of all of our religious minorities. But I think that it is a question of -- again, as I think your caller called in, I mean, there is an issue of separation of church and state. You know, we are a public school system. You know, we're not a Christian school system. We're not a Jewish school system. We're not a Muslim school system. We need to respect all the traditions of our different faiths and we do publish an interfaith calendar. We have a comprehensive calendar. We give guidance to all of our teachers and staff in terms of the testings not to occur, you know, on these dates. It's excused absence for all of our religious groups in terms of the holidays that they celebrate.

KAUFFMANSo we do respect all the traditions of our different groups. But we can't -- when we talk about what are the days that we're going to be giving days off, I think when we looked at our calendar we recognized that there was a problem. You know, we did specifically call out the Jewish holidays. And that was based on the operational issue. We did call out Christmas and Easter, and that's based on really state law.

KAUFFMANAnd we did look at other school systems. And you mentioned that, yes, Fairfax, also Lowden, Alexandria, Arlington. But if you even look around the country, we have many, many schools, you know, New York City does not call out...

NNAMDII do have to interrupt because we're running out of time very quickly.

KAUFFMANSure.

NNAMDIPatricia O'Neill, Saqib Ali complained that he or his organization have never been able to get an actual meeting with the school board in an effort to hammer this out. Why not?

MS. PATRICIA O'NEILLMr. Ali has testified numerous times before the board of education. And, in fact, he also has spoken with many members of the board, including me on a private basis. In fact, last night while I was in a public hearing, I had a message from him on my cell phone regarding this issue. And I spoke with him probably six weeks ago, a month ago about this very issue.

MS. PATRICIA O'NEILLIt's also important to note, we have a calendar committee of diverse stakeholders who sit and make a recommendation to the superintendent on a two-year basis on our calendars. And Mr. Ali was a member of that stakeholder group that recommended to the superintendent this calendar that came forward to us. Now I'm sure he did not recommend removing the reference to Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur but he -- nevertheless he was at -- had a seat at the table as did another member of the Muslim community, as did Montgomery County Council of PTAs...

NNAMDII do have to interrupt because, as I said, we're running out of time very quickly. Philip Kauffman, it's my understanding the school board is considering putting in place clearer guidelines to decide when schools should close. What's next and is a day off for Eid a possibility in the future?

KAUFFMANWhat's next is the school board will be working with the superintendent to develop the guidelines. And in the future, yes, if we decide that there is an operational impact that justifies closing for Eid, my guess is a future school board will make that decision.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. Thank you so much for joining us. Philip Kauffman is president of the Montgomery County Public School's board of education. Patricia O'Neill is the vice-president. Matt Bush is WAMU's Maryland reporter. When we come back, John Hancock had perhaps the most distinctive and largest signature of his time. That may be why we now say put your John Hancock here. We'll be looking at signatures through history. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.