MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. It's Food Wednesday. Later in the broadcast the Dirty Kitchen Experience, how bluegrass icon Frank Solivan cooks for you and plays music for you and talks with us. But first if you're at a celebration with an overabundance of food you're sure to hear someone say, there's enough here to feed an army. But what does it actually take to feed our military?

MR. KOJO NNAMDIA lot of planning and thought goes into providing America's armed forces with proper nutrition and sustenance. Spruce beer and tobacco aren't part of daily rations anymore, but many bottles of Tabasco Sauce and packs of M&Ms do go with our soldiers on the move. We consider the evolving art in science of feeding our troops. Joining us in studio is Bernadette Marriott. She is with the Samueli Institute. She's been working on nutrition issues for 30 years and has researched military nutrition extensively. Bernadette Marriott, thank you so much for joining us.

MS. BERNADETTE MARRIOTTThank you. It's a delight to be here.

NNAMDIJoining us from the studios of WCVE in Richmond, Va. is Luther Hanson. Luther Hanson is the Curator of the U.S. Army Quartermaster Museum at Fort Lee in Virginia. Luther Hanson, thank you for joining us.

MR. LUTHER HANSONThank you so much for having me.

NNAMDIAnd, Luther, I'll start with you. Military rations have been around since the Spartan's Battle at Thermopylae. What did the first American military rations consist of?

HANSONThe first ones during the Revolution actually were predominantly made of salt beef -- salted beef and fish, peas, normally a pint of milk a day. They also of course had included flour to make some sort of bread or bread -- pancake type of bread. And included spruce beer again to help prevent scurvy and usually at least a half gill or a gill of rum every day, about a quarter pint of rum each day was supposedly included in the ration as well.

NNAMDIUp until World War I it's my understanding most soldiers still expected three hots and a cot, correct?

HANSONOh, yes. That was always part of it that -- as it is in a sense still today. That's part of the soldier's pay. Eisenhower used to say, the food is part of the soldier's pay. None of it shall be counterfeit. And he wanted to make sure that all the food up until that time also included what the soldier was to get as part of his daily pay.

NNAMDIBernadette Marriott, how are the military's dietary needs different from what you or I should eat to get through the day?

MARRIOTTWell, it's a very interesting question because when we think about technology transfer from the military to our civilian life, one of the things we probably don't think very much about is our food and our recommendations about what we should be eating. But in 1940, the first committee on food and nutrition was formed to advise the U.S. government related to national defense because of problems with recruiting young men into the military.

MARRIOTTThey found that one in five men were rejected because of dental defects. And this is what led to the first board that looked at the minimum need and safety margin for nutrition intake in our country. And this later led to the recommended dietary allowances which we all use today. And we also see the results of these recommendations on our food packages.

MARRIOTTSo it's because of the military that we have these guidelines. And the military takes these guidelines and then assesses them as they are revived each time. And currently we're working with the dietary recommendations -- recommended dietary intakes for Americans. Earlier we had different versions of this. And the military looks at these with regard particularly to energy expenditure and looks at the various expectations of different occupations in the military and derives what they call the military recommended daily allowances. And these provide more adequate protein intake and particularly energy and vitamins and minerals at a somewhat higher level than we see for civilians.

NNAMDIWhat are some of the bigger challenges when it comes to making sure that military -- members of the military get balanced meals?

MARRIOTTIronically, it's getting military personnel in active duty in the field to eat enough food. I mean, it's hard for us to fathom quite right now when we're faced with this what's sometimes called an obesity and overweight epidemic in our country, that as recently as 1995 the National Academy of Sciences Food and Nutrition Board issued a report called Not Eating Enough. That was done by the committee on military nutrition research to specifically look at the problems that military were facing with weight loss because they typically were struggling to take in enough calories during the day when they were out in the field.

NNAMDIWe're talking with Bernadette Marriott. She is with the Samueli Institute. The Samueli Institute is a nonprofit research organization supporting the scientific investigation of healing and its role in medicine and healthcare. It also looks -- it's involved in military and veterans health research. Also joining us from studios in Richmond, Va. is Luther Hanson. He is the Curator of the U.S. Army Quartermaster Museum at Fort Lee in Virginia.

NNAMDIYou can join the conversation. If you served in the military, what are your favorite or, for that matter, least favorite meal memories? Call us at 800-433-8850. Have you ever eaten an MRE? How was it? We'll talk about that more later. And if you go to our website, kojoshow.org, you'll be able to see a certain host, who shall remain anonymous, eating an MRE. 800-433-8850 or go join the conversation at our website kojoshow.org.

NNAMDILuther Hanson, you mentioned this in passing earlier, whiskey and spruce beer were once part of American rations. Were military leaders more laid back then or is there another reason they were providing the troops with liquor?

HANSONWell, the liquor ration had been in certainly from the Revolution up through the 1830s. And then there was a movement in America called the Temperance Movement that took hold in America during the 1830s and '40s where the actual abolition of alcohol was promoted. And the -- this movement actually went to Congress and was able to remove the whiskey ration and liquor ration out of the army's hands around 1836 to 1837.

NNAMDIDarn it, but go ahead. (laugh)

HANSONAnd, well, they were able to replace that ration 'cause there was almost a riot through army circles at the time with many of the soldiers saying they might not re-up for the next -- their next enlistment if they weren't going to get their whiskey. They'd been used to getting this and it had been considered a healthful thing. It had been something that medical -- army medical folks thought it was good for the digestion, it was good for the demeanor of the soldier to have that every day before chow. And so it was rather disappointing for, I'm sure, many of the soldiers at the time.

HANSONAnd the Congress felt and the army felt that they had to have some kind of replacement for that. So thusly increased coffee was added to it because a soldier was to have a minimum of six cups of coffee per day up through the civil war. Added sugar was also put in, additional sugar. And tobacco was added to the ration at that time in 1838 as a daily part of your ration. And that continued right on up through 1978 when President Jimmy Carter then signed an act saying to remove the tobacco ration out of the MREs and out of the soldier's daily ration.

HANSONSo it was in for about 150 years, but the whiskey ration actually -- if I can keep going just for another moment -- was actually brought back in during the Civil War as a recruiting tool actually. Because a lot of -- they felt, well, perhaps if -- that might also bring more folks into the military at the time. But the North actually ran their army -- I would say they ran their army on caffeine and the South ran their army on nicotine 'cause the South had more tobacco naturally and so they were able to get that.

HANSONThe coffee for the southern states was more or less cut off by embargo and other things. And so they did have a lot of that. But the coffee, of course, is still a staple today as it's been for all those years and continues on today.

NNAMDIBernadette Marriott, before sending troops into the desert for the first Gulf War, hydration was a big concern. How does the military make sure troops get enough to drink?

MARRIOTTWell, there again, like this is where the National Academy of Sciences Institute of Medicine, Food and Nutrition Board Committee on military nutrition came into play. Before they first went to the Gulf they were asked, what should the soldiers be eating in the heat and what should they be drinking. As a result of this there was a -- there was developed within the military a water policy that specifically lays out how frequently individual soldiers must drink.

MARRIOTTAnd specifically one of the concerns was that people needed to drink before they actually went into action or when they were flying over to a situation. They needed to be sure that they were continuing to drink so that they didn't enter a combat situation dehydrated to begin with.

NNAMDIDoes the military use any sort of enhanced beverages like Gatorade to keep troops hydrated?

MARRIOTTYes, they do. They actually studied this question and issued -- there was a report issued by the Institute of Medicine called Fluid Replacement and Heat Stress. This was issued in 1994 and specifically looked at carbohydrate beverages, electrolyte-carbohydrate-containing beverages and the role that they could have in keeping soldiers hydrated. And as a result, these are available to our troops.

MARRIOTTOur colleague mentioned caffeine and military also -- and I'm sure he is knowing what I'm going to talk about is that there are little packets of chewing gum called Stay Alert and they're a caffeine supplement chewing gum. When each one -- each piece, which is a Chiclets-size piece, contains 100 milligrams of caffeine. And I want to give you some for your very own.

NNAMDIOh, thank you very much. I do have my Stay Alert with me now so I'll be awake for the rest of this broadcast. Luther, Napoleon said that the army marches on its stomach. Before the introduction of the tin can soldiers in the field ate salted meats and desiccated vegetables, which don't sound too appealing. How did canning change the way the military eats on the move?

HANSONCanning revolutionized armies on the move starting for the American army around 1845, just at the beginning of the Mexican War. Of course, naturally, the French had them from 1809, the British, I believe, started around 1813. But it certainly did revolutionize the packaging overall for the preservation of the food. Prior to that time, everything had to be salted or dried or it barreled -- coopered in barrels or in some other way. For example, desiccated vegetables, they would press onions and (sounds like) cajup and turnips and beets and press out all the liquid. And then expect the U.S. soldier to rehydrate those vegetables back and then eat them.

HANSONBut packaging, again, over the last 100 -- 130, 140 years has revolutionized the army as far as being able to transport its food. By 1898, the first army/navy corned beef ration comes out. And again, by 1906, the first emergency ration, again, canned emergency ration of chocolate, which is basically the -- I think it's the 106th anniversary of Hershey's Cocoa in the U.S. Army ration. That's been around since 1906. And then, on the other side, it would've had like an oatmeal type material that you would then hydrate with water, eat it hot or cold. And then, you had your cocoa as well. Again, it was about keeping you awake and keeping you alert as a soldier.

NNAMDIWell, Bernadette Marriott, food on the go for today's military often means a meal ready to eat, known as an MRE. They come in that brown plastic envelope that you're carrying. It's about a foot long, seven inches across, three inches wide.

NNAMDII sampled extensively from it today but you can see at website, kojoshow.org. How does the military manage to pack such a small package with enough calories to sustain a soldier in the field and make it appetizing?

MARRIOTTThere -- outside Boston, Massachusetts in the town of Natick, there's a research center that focuses on specifically what should be included in the MREs like you had earlier today. And I have a different one here I'm going to leave for you. I understand you had the rice and beans when I'm leaving you a chicken breast one.

NNAMDIVery good. Good for tomorrow.

MARRIOTTBut there they do both the research on specifically nutrition and exercise aspects. Wonderful research facilities at the U.S. Army Research Institute for Environmental Medicine and also there are Natick laboratories which look more at the functional properties of foods and actually develop the components that one sees in the MREs.

MARRIOTTSo the nutrition is identified through the military recommended dietary allowances that are developed throughout a committee that crosses the different service branches and has specific recommendations about the amount of sodium, the amount of potassium, etc. in all of the nutrients in the specific foods.

MARRIOTTAnd then up at Natick Laboratories is where they develop the actual foods themselves and I know that your guest who will be coming on in a little bit with the dirty kitchen pan is a wonderful chef and he would feel right at home up there with Natick Labs because they have very experienced individuals whose goal is to develop foods that taste good and are very nutritionally sound.

NNAMDIAnd I have to tell you I was mildly surprised because it tasted really good. I enjoyed and I had to come down and do the show at 12:00 but I almost ate it all for lunch. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we will continue this conversation on military meals. You can call us at 800-433-8850. If you've been part of a civil war re-enactment we'd like to know what you ate and how it was. 800-433-8850, I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our "Food Wednesday" conversation on military meals. We're talking with Luther Hanson. He's a curator of the U.S. Army Quartermaster Museum at Fort Lee in Virginia. He joins us from studios in Richmond, Virginia. Joining us in our Washington studio is Bernadette Marriott of the Samueli Institute. She's been working on nutrition in issues for 30 years and has researched military nutrition extensively. Luther Hanson, MREs can be heated without a fire thanks to a flameless ration heater, which we tried out today and it worked really well. Was that a first?

HANSONIt was. Really for that particular type of ration, the MRE originally was developed in 1963 out of work that done by the U.S. Army Quartermaster Corp up at Natick Research and Development labs that had been opened by the Quartermaster Corp in 1950 and it was a result of the food development that the Quartermaster Corp in Natick had done for the space program for NASA and initially that's where it was first fielded and tested and then the long-range patrol ration came in after that.

HANSONBut prior to that time, most of your rations would have to be heated with heating tablets. They had hexamine, I think, it was called type of tablet that you would have to light with a match to heat your ration up out in the field if you didn't have any other way of building a fire. Each soldier ration included these types of heating tablets. So it really is a new innovation for heating food. Again, possibly something that come out from some of the foods that we use in the NASA space program.

NNAMDIGot a lot of calls here. I will start with Brian in Arlington, Va. Brian, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BRIANHello, my name's Brian from Arlington. Great show. I just had a quick story to relate. And one thing I always noticed -- I was in the army for 11 years, and having worked with a lot of foreign soldiers, I noticed in my many travels that the American soldiers to tend eat a lot more. And the one thing that really comes to mind is the first time I went to Thailand.

BRIANWe sat down at the Thai soldiers cafeteria, ordered each a plate of Pat Thai, the Thai and noodles, and they brought one plate for four soldiers. We scratched our heads and looked at them. They looked confused, too. Then we asked for a plate each. By the time we got done eating second and third helpings, we had about a dozen Thai soldiers staring at us, scratching their heads like they'd never seen people eat that much food. And I was just wondering for your guest, if they have noticed that sort of trend where the American soldiers tend to consume more than the soldiers of other countries.

NNAMDIBernadette Marriott?

MARRIOTTWell, in terms of the recommendations for European soldiers and the American soldiers, they're very similar in terms of the amount of calories recommended in the distribution of the macronutrients as well as vitamins and minerals. So the recommendations and the way the food is formulated is very, very similar, very little difference among them.

MARRIOTTI'm wondering if what you were experiencing was a difference in the number of times people may eat per day in Thailand when you were visiting there. Because in -- as you know I'm sure from your extensive travels, that throughout the world people eat different, at different times of day and also eat a different number of times per day in terms of their meal occasions.

NNAMDIAnd Brian, here's what's interesting. Bernadette, it's my understanding that the military used to use MREs for humanitarian relief efforts. The military doesn't do that anymore. Why? I think that relates to Brian's question, too.

MARRIOTTYes, the military, in fact, was called upon many times about a decade or earlier ago and our other guest may be able to put a better time frame on that. And then, they realized that these really weren't appropriate to be providing our MREs or other long-life ration packages for relief because they're very high in calorie content.

MARRIOTTAnd it's for someone who in a situation where perhaps they're undernourished, that's really not the appropriate level. So as a result, the military did prepare and has on stock in different places around the world, specific relief rations that they now provide in situations where hunger is prevalent.

NNAMDILuther Hanson, care to add anything to that?

HANSONWell, I just agree with you actually. Most of those relief rations were upwards of 3,000 calories, some were even higher than that. I've heard of some of them being up towards of 5,000 calories and I agree that -- I believe that was something that had to be changed.

NNAMDIOkay. Brian, thank you very much for your call. I'd like to go onto to Shawn in Odenton, Md., who I think has a related kind of issue. Shawn, your turn.

SHAWNYes, hi Kojo.

NNAMDIGo right ahead Shawn.

SHAWNI'm calling -- I'm actually a soldier that's home right now on leave from Afghanistan. One of the things that I've found that it, first of all, surprised me the most is that our food is all cooked by contractors in the de sac and they're actually being cooked by mostly Eastern European contractors. But I never knew so many, I guess, maybe eastern Europeans could make such good American food.

SHAWNIt's also interesting to me that the food that we have is all -- there's a huge variety, but it's all very American food. I mean, you'll still have your pastas and, you know, have like a Mexican night, but it's all very Americanized food. And I have family members who are often asking me how the food is in Afghanistan, how the local food is and that's not really what the focus is.

SHAWNI think it's important that as well as the focus being on nutrition, there's really a big focus on the food being comfort as well and being food's that you're used to and I wondered what your guests comments would be on that.

NNAMDIWell, you'd be interested to know, Shawn, that that's another of the reasons that the MREs use for humanitarian relief efforts wasn't working out so well. Because they tended to be American, is that correct, Bernadette?

MARRIOTTYes, having a little tiny bottle of Tabasco sauce in a relief ration was quite mystifying to some of the people who receive this as pallets dropped into relief situations. But the core comfort food component that you brought up is very important and all of these rations go through extensive taste testing and review by military personnel.

MARRIOTTAnd one of the things that has continually come to the forefront when looking at sensory properties of the foods, which are also tested extensively up at Natick Laboratories, is that military personnel want that comfort food component. And, in fact, they've said, we really want things that we could get at home. Like the Hershey's chocolate bar as part of our ration because that helps us feel just more secure and more connected.

NNAMDIShawn, thank you very much for your call. Luther Hanson, we got this email from Jonathan. "I've seen some of these civil war uniforms up close. And the sweltering heat of Northern Virginia, how did these soldiers function without being constantly dehydrated? Were their bodies better acclimated to the heat or was water more important than hard tack and beef jerky? Also the MREs I remember were tremendously high in fat, which soldiers needed. Are current MREs as high in fat?"

HANSONWell, to answer your first question, I think the Civil War Soldier was better acclimatized to -- at that particular timeframe they had to, in a sense, get used to it because the army only had wool uniforms that they were issuing to them up until 1898. So it was an economy thing. They had just four sizes and size one, two, three and four. It was all wool and it was actually to wear well and to really last for your three-year enlistment, as long as you were going to be in.

HANSONAs far as the fat is concerned I remember doing a survey with the FDA on -- we did a survey of all the fat of army rations, starting with the 1906 -- actually we started with an 1898 Army corned beef ration through the MREs and, yes, there is a much, much higher content of fat in the more current MREs over the 20 years or so and I imagine that will probably continue. They -- as I said even in the arctic rations there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 5,000, 5,500 calories and high-fat content.

NNAMDIBernadette Marriott, if I'm a vegetarian or if I keep kosher, am I out of luck when MREs are passed out of does the military accommodate special diets?

MARRIOTTThe military does the best they can in any given situation to accommodate special diets. And there are MREs -- there different ration packets that are marked in such a way but, you know, in some situations the soldier may have to or the individual military personnel may not be able to have all of their preferences.

MARRIOTTBut the military does as best they can given the situation. I wanted to mention something. We were talking about high fat in the diet. It's uncommon sometimes for military personnel to lose as much as 10 percent of their body weight in less than 48 hours in some of the combat situations.

MARRIOTTSo when my colleague on the phone was talking about the high-fat ration, that is one of the aspects of the ration that helps with this situation of weight loss and when individuals are walking such distance as carrying a tremendous amount of weight on their body.

NNAMDIAnd we're running out of time, but I'd like to get Juan's, in Laurel, Md., comment in. Juan, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JUANHow you doing? First time caller, long time listener. I love the show.

NNAMDIThank you.

JUANI just wanted to -- MREs -- I was prior military and I was a big fan of MREs. I love MREs and we could also trade sometimes. The -- one person got Skittles, another person got M&M's. There’s always a trading and bartering system associated with it. And also with that, the packet that you heat up, you know, the main course?

NNAMDIYes.

JUANThere's a certain technique that we've developed to get that packet as hot as it can possibly get and so it was always fun with MREs and it's something that I remember of the military.

NNAMDISo you do enjoy them. Juan, thank you very much for your call. Luther, before we go we've talked a lot about eating on the go, but the military does still provide meals at mess halls on bases. How's the food there?

HANSONVery good. I regularly eat at our mess halls at Fort Lee and I've eaten at many other bases, military bases, around the world. They, again, try to make sure that the soldier is offered a wide variety -- as wide variety of food as they possibly can get and would like to receive.

HANSONWe, of course, still train our cooks at Fort Lee, at the Joint Culinary Center of Excellence at Fort Lee and now we do all the services train at Fort Lee. That's the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard and try to make sure that our chefs are culinary ready and produce the best foods they can in the mess halls. And you're certainly invited, if you'd ever like to come down to Fort Lee and we'll take you to a mess hall and you can enjoy a...

NNAMDIMy producers are making a note of that even as we speak. You can expect us at some point in the future. Luther Hanson, thank you so much for joining us.

HANSONThank you. It’s been a pleasure being here.

NNAMDILuther Hanson is the curator of the U.S. Army Quartermaster Museum at Fort Lee in Virginia and that's just about 30 minutes south of Richmond so it's not that difficult for us to get there. Bernadette Marriott is with the Samueli Institute. She's been working on nutrition issues for 30 years and has researched military nutrition extensively. Thank you so much for joining us.

MARRIOTTThank you.

NNAMDIWe're going to take a short break. When we come back, Frank Solivan. He, of course, the icon of Bluegrass, but he'll also talk about cooking because he is also an icon of the culinary arts. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.