KOJO NNAMDIYou're tuned in to The Kojo Nnamdi Show on WAMU 88.5 where I'm broadcasting from home so welcome. Later in the broadcast Kojo for Kids with celebrated author Kate DiCamillo. But first for the vast majority of people living through a pandemic is uncharted territory, but for some the hardships and the challenges are all too familiar. For people who have lived in conflict zones there are many similarities between our current altered reality and the daily routine of living life during a war.

KOJO NNAMDIBoth of my guests today have experienced life in conflict zones and the lesson they learned have helped them view the circumstances created by this pandemic through a different lens, lessons that may be good reminders to all of us that we can rise above our current challenges and before stronger as a community. Joining me now is Dina Nayeri, an award winning novelist and author. Her latest book is "The Ungrateful Refugee." Dina Nayeri, thank you so much for joining us.

DINA NAYERIThanks for having me.

NNAMDIAlso joining us is Jackie Munn, a U.S. Army Combat Veteran. She now works as a Family Nurse Practitioner. Jackie Munn, thank you for joining us.

JACKIE MUNNThanks for having me, Kojo.

NNAMDIDina, I'll start with you. You were born in Iran, grew up there in the 1980s while the country was at war with neighboring Iraq. What do you remember most about daily life during that time?

NAYERIWell, we tried very hard to keep things normal. My family, I lived with my mother and father and my brother, but, you know, we had a lot of extended family and neighbors and a very tightknit close community. And Iranians are so community oriented and they're so used to village life. And so, you know, we had a lot of times together, you know, a lot of coming together checking on neighbors. But there were also just strange things like sirens going off and everybody running off to bomb shelters, having to leave school in the middle of the day, because there was a siren, tapped up windows, just all of these little physical details of wartime, ration coupons, rationing, you know.

NAYERISometimes we would send off my dad to go and do a shop and he'd some come back with bizarre things like flyswatters and things simply because the shops had made a rule that if you're going to get, you know, one of the ration bottles of milk you have to buy some non-essential item. People took advantage, you know.

NNAMDIWell, the new rules of daily life during this pandemic being confined to our homes, disruptions to work and school, milestone experiences having to be delayed or canceled all together are all similar to aspects of life in a conflict zone. What have been the greatest similarities for you, Dina?

NAYERIWell, to my time there you have to remember that I was a child, but I think that the biggest similarity for me is just the way we've drawn into, you know, our close-knit families and the way we've kind of returned to this kind of old school family life, village life. You know, the centering our lives around meals. You know, educating our own children, going back to pen and paper. You know, and then there are all of the anxieties and all the worrying and having to learn not to think as much about the future to live in the present.

NAYERII think for me it has been kind of a re-education about not living in the future, and I'm somebody who tends to do that. But in Iran everything was so physical during that time. You know, one thing I noticed that I do much more of now is that I play and I hug my kid and we are just physically in each other's arms a lot more. I have found that to be very similar to then.

NNAMDIDina, you have said that despite having access to social media and the internet, technologies that did not exist when you were growing up in Iran, life in quarantine has nevertheless been lonelier than your life during war. Why is that?

NAYERIYes. I think it's because, you know, we got a little bit too used to social media. I think life has become much more solitary just over the decades not just during quarantine. You know, in Iran we lived as I was saying the village life. That means there was always a lot of people around. There were grandmother's, there were children, there were teenagers. Our life included all kinds of people, you know, and we came to each other's help and we found ourselves responsible for each other.

NAYERIThere's this joke that Iranian kind of make when they move into the west and to western cultures. And they say, oh I talked to my neighbor and his mother needs him and he won't go over there. His mother is only four hours away. You know, this is how we think. You know, we go and we go to each other. So it wasn't lonely. We always had these deep deep roots and they were strong. And here I feel like now, you know, in my 20s and 30s life became much more isolated much more about the individual, about myself, my achievements, and the same were all of my peers.

NAYERIAnd then with social media we just simply stopped relying on each other. And now suddenly here we are and what we have of the outside world is, you know, through social media. And, you know, it's not enough. It's not. It's not village living and that's what I crave now. And so it feels lonelier.

NNAMDIJackie Munn, you have experienced life in a conflict zone from a different perspective. You served as a U.S. Army Captain in Iraq and Afghanistan. Tell us about your daily life while deployed to Afghanistan.

MUNNYeah, so in combat zones some of the similarities that I noticed is the monotony of every single day. If you're not going on missions, you're stuck on base. There's no amenities. There's no barber shop. There's no grocery store, and you're eating the same food, seeing the same people. But the biggest different is back home life is going on when you're deployed, and here everybody is kind of suffering together.

MUNNAnd another similarity I noticed is, you know, in a combat zone you're often fighting an invisible enemy. And that's what COVID feels like. When I go into clinic, I just assume everybody has it, because that's just the safest way for me to operate and that's how when we're on missions in Afghanistan we were treating everybody the same with the same level of suspicion.

NNAMDIYou said, that the biggest difference for you between the isolation that you felt while deployed in Afghanistan and the isolation of sheltering in place during this quarantine is that this time around you're not experiencing SFMO. Exactly what is SFMO and why hadn't you experienced it this time around?

MUNNYeah. So, you know, I think everybody is familiar with the world FOMO, fear of missing out. In a war zone you had sadness from missing out, right? So people were still going to weddings. People were going on vacations and they were going to funerals, and when you're deployed you don't get to do any of that, right? Like you're very removed and distant, you're missing school plays. And so I think for me it's an interesting, you know, it's very sad that those things are missing out, but it is amazing to see how people are still overcoming those changes.

NNAMDIBecause what we're experiencing now is being experienced by everyone not just by people who are isolated as you were when you were in Afghanistan.

MUNNCorrect.

NNAMDII'd like to dig a little deeper into this concept of us being in it together. What difference does a sense of comradery make when you're living through a difficult experience whether it's war or a pandemic? Jackie Munn.

MUNNYeah. You know, when you're deployed your safety and your sanity, your emotional well-being really depends on A, your own resiliency, but also the people that are around you. So my team in Afghanistan made the difference in my life inside the wire and my life outside the wire. So when we were engaging the community I knew that I was protected. And when we were not on missions, I mean, we did simple things, like my mom would mail us pancake mix. And every Sunday we would make breakfast for our Afghan counterparts, our military team. And it was just a way of reconnecting with one another and bringing a sense of home and unity to a very bizarre place.

NNAMDIDo you find that experience similar to anything you're experiencing now here?

MUNNYou know, I think what's fascinating about the pandemic, Kojo, is people are overcoming things. You know, I joked I've seen my family and friends more on Facetime and Zoom meetings than I have in probably the past year. I mean, actually my best friend and her partner just got married on a Zoom meeting. And it's just so beautiful to see people adapt and overcome and still have that sense of community.

NNAMDIDina Nayeri, in an op-ed published in The Washington Post last week you wrote that war and pandemics are not ordinary experiences, but quoting here, "craving joy in the face of privation is," what do you mean by that?

NAYERIWell, I think as humans it's in our nature to go looking after those basic things no matter what the circumstance is. You know, after Iran I was also a refugee for a while and this is something I saw in the camps. And then later when I visited them, you know, people go looking for love. They go looking for family. They go looking for good food from home. They go looking for the things that bring us joy and pleasure. Stories, for example, is a good example of that what we do when we're missing out. I don't think we are built to sit around and, you know, feel sorry for ourselves. I think we're built to be together and to bring joy to each other. And I think that's really quite lovely. It's the biggest lesson I learned about all of these experiences is to just continue looking for the small joys until you come out in the other side.

NNAMDIDuring your life in Iran during that war where were you able to experience joy? What did you find joyful?

NAYERIThe stories. I mean, I had my grandmother and my grandfather. You know, often, you know, we were all having to run down to a basement shelter, when the sirens would blare and there was a bomb. And it wasn't just one family. It was all the families from the building and the next building, you know, connected basements. Some people would bring tea and people would bring pots of food. You know, it was this joke that the grandmothers would bring, you know, the little pots of opium and everyone would sit around drinking tea. And, you know, they would start telling stories.

NAYERIAnd the grandmothers and grandfathers had these, you know, decades of experience, because they didn't have TV. They didn't have radio. These were people who entertained each other and so we would sit and listen to them. And it transported us and we weren't in a bomb shelter waiting for a bomb. We were at a party. And it think then that's why I think my memories of that time now are so sweet and so nostalgic. It might actually sound really strange the way I'm talking about the war, but that's what it was for us. The older generations helped us find the joy.

NNAMDIHow have you found joy during the pandemic? What benefits does life under confinement provide for you?

NAYERIWell, I guess it's not so much benefits as it is, you know, kind of a lesson or a reminder about what my main job is or why I'm here. You know, I've had so much anxiety over work and writing and that kind of stuff. But then I keep remembering about what the parents and the grandparents did for us in those, you know, shelters and in Iran in general. And I think, well, I owe this to my daughter. You know, my daughter is going to remember this. She is four years old. And I want her to remember it as, you know, as a life lesson as a moment where we were all resilient together. And so, for example, in Paris at eight o'clock at night everybody claps for the health workers. And so we always go, you know, and make sure that we're on our balcony and clanging the pots, because I want that memory to cement.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue this conversation. You can still call us 800-433-8850. What lessons have you learned about resiliency? I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back, we're learning pandemic lessons from war zones with Dina Nayeri, an award-winning novelist and author. Her latest book is "The Ungrateful Refugee." It's available now in hardcover, coming out soon in paperback. Dina is currently living in Paris with her daughter and partner. Also joining us is Jackie Munn, a U.S. Army Combat Veteran. She now works as a Family Nurse Practitioner. Jackie Munn, what benefits has life under confinement provided for you and your family? Where are you finding the joy?

MUNNYeah. I think this experience has been very interesting, because it's, I think kind of like Dina said refocused my family. We're spending more time, you know, playing games, asking one another questions, outside gardening. It kind of feels like we've gone back to the 90s where before like social media days and people were like outside. So that's been really really great and interesting.

NNAMDIYou now work as a nurse practitioner. In the early days of the public health crisis in this region one of your colleagues in the clinic were you were working told you that she felt like quoting here, "the world had turned into a war zone." What did that evoke for you?

MUNNYeah, you know, there's definitely some things that remind me of my time in combat. You know, social distancing you're keeping six feet apart. When you're in a combat zone you're doing a dismount at patrol, you're going to be at least 10 meters from the person in front of you, because if they step or if there's an IAD that goes off, the farther you are apart the less casualties there will be, right? So same concepts. I also think there's an interesting, you know, concept of, you know, soldiers being thanked for their service, same thing with the healthcare workers.

MUNNAnd as much as we do applauds and, you know, thank yous I think the most meaningful thing particularly in this fight, you know, everybody has a role to play. Everybody has a part unlike in Afghanistan, right? So the average American civilian doesn't necessarily know what they can do. But here right, you can stay home. You can social distance. You can wear a mask, right? So everybody is empowered to take part in this fight.

NNAMDIHere now is Hallah in Alexandria, Virginia. Hallah, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

HALLAHHi. I have been listening to the episode and it's -- I find it actually fascinating. So I'm originally from Iraq. So I identify with your guest from Iran, Dina, about growing up in the war. I was born during Iraq-Iran war. And then when I was a child the 1991 war took place. And then when the U.S. invasion happened I worked with the U.S. Army as an interpreter. So basically I lived with the soldiers, dressed like the soldiers, was targeted like the soldiers. And in that I identify with Jackie.

HALLAHAnd I just wanted to respond to a question you asked Jackie earlier about how the bond is different or how the bond between you and other soldiers is similar to what's going on now. In my experience the society as a whole after a war most of the times moves on. And you forget things quickly once things go back to normal. But the bond you create with soldiers with the small number of individuals that were used to a very difficult experiences that is something you can never break.

NNAMDII'd like to have Jackie respond to that. Do you feel the same way about that, Jackie, that there are certain bonds that are made that are in fact inseparable after a while?

MUNNI do. I think what's interesting with this though is, you know, in a combat zone there's a physical bond that you actually have and it's so kinetic and it is very binding, because you're physically going through something very similar versus I think here we are very isolated. And it does feel different. And I would hope that, right, like we have a shared resiliency in that bond. But I think what's missing is that physicality.

NNAMDIDina, you and your family eventually became refugees first in Italy and then settling here in the U.S. What did you learn as a refugee that has helped you cope with the challenges of life during this pandemic?

NAYERII think the biggest lesson is that, you know, sometimes power is exerted over you by making you wait. That's kind of the way humans exert power over each other and institutions too. And the biggest thing that you can do for yourself is just never succumb to waiting, which means that, you know, you don't sit around hoping for something around you to change, but you change yourself to adapt to the circumstance. And I saw refugees doing that all the time.

NAYERIYou know, when we first arrived in Italy my mother realized that we would miss, you know, a long chunk of school. And so she went and she found an American group of homeschoolers and she just got all of their used workbooks and she erased and erased until her fingers were raw so that we wouldn't miss school. And, you know, she said, here we are. Look, we're in Italy. And people pay money to come here and we may not have money but we're going to see it. So we would take night buses around Italy just to see the monuments. My mother was not about to let that time be wasted. And now decades later I am so grateful for that, because it taught me, you know, that I'm not going to sit around and wait. And I think most refugees after they've made it to their destinations live that way too.

NNAMDINow here is Kim in Damascus, Maryland. Kim, your turn.

KIMThank you. Yeah, I have also been in the garden quite a bit and I have found a great sense of community with the earth and the plants and the insects, the frogs, the birds, mammals. And I just feel a lot more open to communicating and listening and taking lessons from the earth. In fact, just now I watched a male cardinal find a worm and hop over to a female cardinal and give it to her. And just kind of in the sense of community as we speak. And I just I've found such great lessons and love from this relationship. And I have to plug Robin Kimmerer, who wrote the book "Braiding Sweetgrass" who has helped me form more trust in these relationships. I am so grateful.

NNAMDIJackie Munn, you have been spending quite a bit of time dealing with the soil too and your child. Tell us about that.

MUNNYeah. So actually what got me thinking about what I published in The Washington Post. When I garden I actually use my combat gloves and it's kind of like repurposing them, you know, from a war setting to such a peaceful nurturing. And it's probably bizarre to some people, but, you know, it ties me to my past, my future. And, you know, the takeaway I want to give to people is, you know, we can plant the seeds of resiliency. We can overcome hard things. It just takes us to be good gardeners, right? We have to look out for one another. We have to look out for these seeds that we sow. And I think together as a community through grace, through kindness and doing our part we can do it.

NNAMDIHere now is Charles in southeast Washington. Charles, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

CHARLESThank you for this show, Kojo. Planting new seeds so we came up with a new seed, Mississippi Avenue has a place called Arc and they teach transcendental meditation over there to the people. And there we do it on a conference call twice a day. And we've had as many as 4,000 people on a call for 30 minutes doing meditation twice a day and it's a great way of connection and coping and just cleaning out your mind. And this has just been really wonderful connecting like that having a sense of community as a coping mechanism.

NNAMDIIndeed, Kojo in Your Community has done shows at the Arc on Mississippi Avenue in Southeast. So I'm glad to hear that you're doing some things there that are helping to get you through this pandemic. So thank you very much for sharing that with us. Dina, much of your literary work focuses on the refugee experiences. And since you've spent a lot of time in refugee camps in recent years, but the plight of refugees across the world has virtually disappeared from the headlines as all of our attention has shifted to COVID-19 and the pandemic. What do you want people to know about the challenges that refugees are currently facing?

NAYERIWell, I want them to remember that the problems that the refugees had before have not gone away. They've just been exacerbated by this. And now they are fighting a war on two fronts. Meanwhile, you know, the rest of us, I think, you know, we have a tendency to look at ourselves and our own issues and our own problems and we've kind of holed away. And we have to. I mean we have no choice. But I want us not to forget in the long term that we still have a debt to the world and we still have these groups of people who have nowhere to go. And some of them are actually having to go back to these dangerous places that they came from.

NAYERISo I don't want this to disappear from the headlines. I don't want it to disappear from our minds and from our hearts especially given that now we understand something of what they go through. We understand about waiting. You know, and we understand what it is not to know your future and to live in so much uncertainty. So I just hope that people will remember that these people still have the gates bared against them and that we need to continue to fight on many fronts, you know, politically and then educating ourselves and our children.

NNAMDIDina Nayeri is an award-winning novelist and author. Her latest book is "The Ungrateful Refugee." Jackie Munn is a U.S. Army Combat Veteran. She now works as a Family Nurse Practitioner. Thank you both for joining us. We're going to take a short break, when we come back, Kojo for Kids with celebrated Author Kate DiCamillo. If you're a kid, you can start calling now. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.