KOJO NNAMDIWelcome back. Few areas in life are separated as starkly by gender as sports. From elementary school, well into the pro sports, are split into men's and women's teams. So, where do transgender athletes fit in? How do sports leagues create policies around gender, and how are local athletes navigating them? Those questions recently made headlines, when an independent school in Maryland left its athletic conference over a disagreement with the conference's transgender athlete policy. Joining us to discuss this and some of the issues being debated is Samantha Pell. Samantha Pell is a sports reporter for the Washington Post. She joins us by phone. Samantha, thank you for joining us.

SAMANTHA PELLAbsolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

NNAMDIWhy did Grace Brethren Christian School decide to leave the Potomac Valley Athletic Conference?

PELLSo, originally, Grace Brethren Christian School wanted to leave its conference because it cited long travel times due to sporting events, and the schools kind of being spread out in the region. But in December, it accelerated its departure. Instead of leaving in the spring, as originally scheduled, the school made an expedited exit from the PVAC because of the league's allowance of transgender athletes to compete on teams consistent with their gender identities.

NNAMDIWhat specific reasons did Grace Brethren officials give as to why they thought the conference's policy was unfair or not in alignment with their values?

PELLSo, George Hornickel is Grace Brethren's school director, and he actually wrote in an email to the Washington Post that the quote-unquote "gender issue" is what pushed up the move, citing the school's Christian principals. He wrote an email that said: schools that allow boys to play on girls teams is a form of cheating, and it gives an advantage over girls teams who only play female athletes. So, Grace Brethren's main issue was with the allowance of transgender athletes to play in the PVAC. And it was something that they eluded to their Christian principles, that they just did not believe in, and they did not want to participate in that conference.

NNAMDISamantha, what is the conference's policy on transgender student athletes?

PELLSo, now their policy -- the PVAC decided to revise their policy in February. Its previous policy was a little bit unclear. It said that an athlete may only participate on a team of the same gender. In February, the conference decided to put it to a vote, revise its policy, and now it reads: the PVAC and its member schools will rely on gender determination listed by the student's school in consultation with the student athlete, and will not make separate gender identity determination. So, anybody who lists themselves as a female will be able to compete on girl teams, and etcetera. And that is the change that they made back in February.

NNAMDIHow does this compare to other local high school league policies?

PELLSure. So, other league policies are a little bit different. There are some that continue to be a little bit in that gray area, like the WCAC. It's currently updating its handbook for the next school year, but it does not actually have a specific gender policy. In the Independent School League, which is the ISL, and the MAC, which is the Mid-Atlantic Athletic Conference, they do have gender-inclusive policies in place to protect their transgender athletes.

NNAMDISamantha Pell is a sports report for the Washington Post. Samantha, thank you so much for joining us.

PELLAbsolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

NNAMDIJoining me in studio is Dr. Eric Vilain. He is the director of the Center for Genetic Medicine Research at Children's National Medical Center. Dr. Vilain, thank you for joining us.

ERIC VILAINHappy to be here.

NNAMDIYou have served as a medical expert for sports authorities both here in the U.S. and internationally to create policies for transgender athletes, including the NCAA. What do you think of these factors that Samantha mentioned? Are these the types of questions that sports authorities are considering when developing gender policies?

VILAINYes, but I would say first that we've come a long way when it comes to inclusion of transgender athletes at the highest level, the Olympics, in particular. There used to be a lot of requirements that were just discriminatory and impractical, like having an official legal change of sex or gender on an official paper, which cannot happen in many countries in the world. There were also requirements of actual surgical reassignment, which is totally irrelevant to sports. And, finally, there were requirements of so-called cross-sex hormone treatment. Again, irrelevant to sports.

VILAINSo, all this has gone mostly in 2015, basically not requiring any kind of surgery, any kind of legal change, and having just one requirement based on levels of testosterone, which is a male hormone.

NNAMDIYour research revolves around genetic determinance of sex development and sex differences, so you can speak about the anatomy side of this conversation. What do you think transgender policies for athletes should consider, and what are factors that do or do not affect the person's athletic ability?

VILAINYou know, there is an ongoing and perennial debate between, I would say, biologists who believe that's the most important thing, is some kind of marker of gender. And it will always be imperfect. And, on the other side, what I would say are identifier, that no matter what gender, identity is the only thing that matters. In sports, it's complicated, because, of course, there are physical and anatomic differences between males and females. And currently, there are different categories. So, it should be, you know, a little bit of both, being as inclusive as possible, but also respecting some kind of fairness from the total category of the gender. So, it's complex, and...

NNAMDIWell, testosterone seems to be an important piece of this. How does testosterone fit in, and what are the issues?

VILAINTestosterone has been chosen by the sports authorities, because it was a biological marker, very different between the male bodies and female bodies. And it was also highly relevant to sports performance, because it makes muscle grow. Of course, it's not the only factor, but it's been chosen as a threshold. And, currently, if an athlete wants to compete in the Olympics in the female category and has testosterone above the male threshold, which is at about ten nanomoles per liter, then this individual cannot compete in the female category.

NNAMDIWe also want to hear the stories of transgender athletes who talk about their experiences. I am joined in studio by Reese Scott, who is a nationally ranked amateur tennis player based here in Washington, DC. Reese Scott, thank you for joining us.

REESE SCOTTGood afternoon.

NNAMDIAlso Tiff Cunin is the sports performance coach for the DC Furies, a Washington area women's rugby club. Tiff Cunin, thank you for joining us.

TIFF CUNINThanks so much for having me.

NNAMDIReese, you are in your mid-50s, reportedly. You don't look it.

SCOTTThat is correct.

NNAMDIAnd you only started playing tennis in 2014, but you are now a nationally ranked amateur player. Why did you decide to start playing, and how did it correspond with your coming out as a transwoman?

SCOTTFrom my own experience, I've been an athlete my entire life. So, I was a soccer player when I was younger. It was a very debilitating sport on my body, and I accumulated a lot of injuries that really took me away from the sport. And I had neck surgery in 2007 that forced me to really get away from any contact sport. And as I retired from the military and had gone through some personal situations, I finally made the decision to start transitioning.

SCOTTOnce I made that decision to start transitioning and I wasn't playing any sport, it puts a lot of mental stress on you, as you're going through that. And I found sports was always something that kind of helped me escape a lot of the things that were going on in my lifetime, previously. And so I was looking for a sport to go into. And I kind of leaned towards tennis, because I had played tennis a couple times before, and I said, I think I can do this. And I found some local clubs. We have a local LGBT club here, Capital Tennis Association that I originally started playing with. And it just was a natural fit for me. It gave me a chance to play sports. And I wasn't very good when I first started, and just the competitive nature of myself...

NNAMDI(overlapping) I was about to say because you played soccer semiprofessionally when you were...

SCOTTI did. I did.

NNAMDI...so you're a pretty competitive person.

SCOTTI am, and I've always been like that. I think part of it was, you know, I was undersize before I transitioned, so competing against men my entire life forced me to have to compete against athletes that were bigger, faster, stronger than me. And I learned to adapt. I learned to do things that I needed to be competitive, and so I always would find a way to win. And I think -- you know, we're sitting here talking about the physiological nature of sports, and I think in sports, the mental aspects of it are way more important than a lot of the physiological aspects for competitive athletes when you get to the elite level.

SCOTTI think you're going to get to a level where you're going to have a lot of athletes that are similar in nature in physiological aspects. But that mental difference between athletes is what separates the ones that are really winning to the ones that are, you know, left lacking a little bit.

NNAMDIBut how do you respond to the arguments that Grace Brethren Christian School used, particularly the one, that transwomen assigned male at birth have a competitive advantage based on your anatomy?

SCOTTWell, anytime I deal with -- you know, I grew up in a very conservative Christian family, and so I know how their thinking goes. And so whether it's fact-based or not, they're going to go back to how their religious aspects are. So, it really makes no difference in how they feel about any of the scientific data. They're going to go back to what's in the Bible and how they're raised in their Christian values, and that's going to dictate anything.

SCOTTSo, whether or not you gave them any scientific evidence that would show them something different, they're still going to believe what their views are. And I can't change somebody's thinking in that manner. I think we have a lot of science that's going on and I just think from just looking at the athletes, the part that -- I'm a parent. I raised daughters. I never want my daughters to think that they can't compete against anybody.

SCOTTAnd, you know, I've ran into this numerous times with my daughter, when she has to compete against boys, and she's, like, I can't win. I'm, like, what are you talking about? Don't ever think that. I'm like, I say, you're the fastest girls in your school. You go out there and you run your fastest race, and you make that boy run his fastest race to beat you. And she did that in the last track meet that she was in, and she lost to the boy who beat her. And she looked at me, and she was a little disgruntled. She has my competitive nature. She hates losing, (laugh) and I just looked at her, and I said, well, you lost to him. And I said, but did you run a good race? She said, yeah. And I said, well, how many other boys finished behind you? And then she realized the point I was trying to make, is that...

NNAMDIThere were a lot of boys that she beat.

SCOTTYeah, she beat every other boy in the school except for one. So...

NNAMDIDo you think that you have any competitive advantages to the women that you compete against?

SCOTTMental, more than anything. I mean, from a physical standpoint, I think there's sports and there's certain athletes, you know. If I was 6'2" or 6'3", then I think -- and I was, you know, very -- you know, I was 200 pounds, I think I could have an advantage in tennis or, you know, some sports where a size difference makes a difference. But I'm fairly, I think, average size. I don't think I have a physical advantage over my opponents, but I have a mental advantage that I've had by having competed against very elite athletes my entire life. You know, in sports like golf and tennis, the mental aspect of you being able to take advantage of your opponents in a mental capacity is more important than anything physical.

NNAMDITiff, what are your thoughts on this anatomy question?

CUNINWell, I think what some folks need to understand is that these athletes, especially these young athletes that were involved in this athletic conference, they and their families are not seeking athletic advantage. They're seeking equity. They're seeking an opportunity to participate in a somewhat social arena that helps them with healthy psychosocial development in the long run. And if we are telling these athletes that because of their sex assigned at birth, they're not able to participate in this group or in this club that brings them joy or makes them feel like they belong, there's an even higher risk for emotional, mental and even physical injury down the line.

CUNINAnd what we should be trying to do is trying to include these athletes in, not just in the sport, but in these conversations, so that we can hear their side of it, and to hear how this may be making them feel as we do try to grow a very diverse and inclusive sports culture here in the U.S.

NNAMDIDr. Vilain, we got a Tweet from Carolyn: If we are measuring testosterone in transgender and gender nonconforming athletes, do we have to measure it in all athletes?

VILAINYou know, that's a great question, and that has been really a problem with this policy that some have considered sexist. Because it only measures testosterone in athletes who want to compete in the female category. There is no question this is an imperfect policy, and I was recently testifying in front of the court of arbitrations of sports in favor of Caster Semenya, a very famous...

NNAMDI(overlapping) ...South African middle distance runner.

VILAIN...South African middle distance runner. And, basically, arguing that these policies are imperfect, and they end up being discriminatory. The reason why it was chosen was because it was the best that the sports authorities thought they could do. And I beg to differ.

NNAMDIWhat happens to a person's body when that person undergoes hormone treatments? Are things like muscle density affected? How about someone's sheer size?

VILAINMuscle mass and bone density will go down if testosterone is removed or is reduced in the body. There's no question about it. It's been shown with a variety of muscle biopsies and bone analysis. The size itself is not changing, but I would say on the idea that there are some competitive advantage, that, in general, sports is always about competitive advantage. And no one's complaining that LeBron James is very tall and very muscular and very agile. So, whether the competitive advantage is mentally, as was said, or physically, it's part of the nature of the sports. And I think everyone needs to understand that.

NNAMDIReese, did you notice any change about your physique and your athletic ability when you started transitioning from male to female?

SCOTTOne-hundred percent, yeah. I mean, I will say that anyone who thinks that a transgender athlete does this to compete at a higher level in the opposite gender, that's, like, the worst thing I could've done to my body is everything I've done through the transitioning. I mean, basically, removing every bit of testosterone, the surgeries that I went through, there's nothing worse I could've done to my body, as an athlete.

SCOTTAnd I noticed, you know, once you take away the testosterone, at least for myself, it was a noticeable lack of strength that I have. The muscle has been replaced by body fat, (laugh) and it's just -- you go through a lot of things. I mean, I think women in general know the difference when they go through hormonal imbalances. So, imagine taking your whole body and putting it through a constant hormonal imbalance, is what you've done. Until your body can acclimate to its new hormonal balance that it has, you're going to be going through a lot of changes. And, for me, it was a significant loss of strength, significant loss of speed.

SCOTTAnd besides aging, I mean, I was just getting older, and you kind of just lose that naturally as you get older, (laugh) you know. So, I just went through things, but I never did this -- I just did this to -- you know, sports is something that's always been a part of my life. And to have that taken from me at the time when I was going through transitioning would've been catastrophic for me.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue this conversation on gender policies in sports and how local transgender athletes navigate those policies. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking gender policies in sports and how they affect local transgender athletes. We're talking with Reese Scott. Reese Scott is a nationally ranked amateur tennis player based here in DC. Dr. Eric Vilain is the director of the Center for Genetic Medicine Research at Children's National Medical Center. And Tiff Cunin is the sports performance coach for the DC Furies, a Washington-area women's rugby club. Tiff, how do you identify in terms of your gender?

CUNINI identify as trans-masculine. So, you know, I identify -- I was assigned female at birth. However, I identify myself as more masculine than female.

NNAMDIBefore serving as the sports performance coach of the DC Furies, you played with the team. How did your coming out as trans-masculine affect your relationship with the sport and, in particular, with your team?

CUNINQuite honestly, it has brought me much closer to that chosen family. This club has been nothing but welcoming and open, not only with me, but with other athletes in the area. And I've never been afraid to be who I am with this club. From time to time, people who are, you know, coming out for the 100th time in their life -- because that's typically what happens, especially for people who identify as queer or trans, we come out many times in our life. My relationship with them, I never had a fear with them.

NNAMDIIn the process of realizing your gender identity, did certain things -- the way the DC Furies or other teams that you played on -- seem geared towards women?

CUNINYes. I can definitely say with a broad brushstroke that different things in terms of using language in guidelines and bylaws and marketing materials, using the term she/her versus player or they/them to make it more neutral, that's pretty common. But a lot of clubs are transitioning through that and are taking the time to make some adjustments to their bylaws, to their guidelines, to the language on their websites. And even something as simple as making introductions at the beginning of the season, saying, hi, my name is Tiff. My pronouns are they/them, and going around the entire team to make sure that everyone's aware of everybody's identification.

NNAMDII want to talk with Jack Newman in Falls Church, Virginia, so Jack Newman can tell us about the experience that he had. Jack Newman, thank you for joining us.

JACK NEWMANThank you for having me.

NNAMDITell us your story.

NEWMANSo, to start, athletics have always been a source of fulfillment in my life. It's really given me a sense of belonging. So, during my freshman year of high school, I competed with the female soccer team. So, it was in sophomore year I made my debut as Jack and came out to my teammates, my coaches and, I guess, my entire school. And I had the support of everyone, which is great. And, however, in my junior year, things got a little more interesting, and I had to navigate a lot more challenges and obstacles regarding my gender identity when it came to sports, in soccer and wrestling.

NEWMANAnd one incident that happened was a soccer player on the opposing team had referred to me as a she, he, thing, it. And she didn't say it to my face, but she said it to the players on my team. And, immediately, my team took action. They told me. They told my coach. So, they had my back, but it happens often. Situations of oppression like that happen -- I mean, you see it all the time. And it just wasn't okay. So, we went to -- you know, she got in trouble, of course.

NEWMANAnd in wrestling, I've had to navigate locker room situations, weigh-ins. Of course, you guys were talking earlier on policies, and there isn't really a set policy for Fairfax County. It's kind of, again, with the bathroom laws and Gavin Grimm, it's kind of up in the air right now.

NNAMDI(overlapping) So, you're still in the process of navigating your way through those policies.

NEWMANYes. Yeah.

NNAMDIThank you so much for sharing that story with us, Jack Newman. Wanted to get some of the callers. And here's Paul, in Alexandria. Paul, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

PAULHello, everybody. I want to start off by just saying that I really do identify with the general idea that mental capacity can overcome many different physical hurdles, as one of your guests has noted. There's a great deal to be said about outsmarting or outwitting your competition or being able to greater utilize your own particular strengths to emphasize the weaknesses in others, despite genders.

PAULAnd then most noncontact sports, I find that to be absolutely valid. And in this micro example of a church pulling out for religious reasons, as that same caller noted, this is more of like a -- it feels more like a fallback excuse, but as someone who's not familiar with that community, I can't really comment...

NNAMDI(overlapping) How about contact sports?

PAULWell, when it comes to contact sports, that's when I started finding the biological differences to be a little bit more pronounced. And it's interesting that there's an individual there who's part of, like, a female rugby team. And I encourage anyone to try rugby. It's an incredible sport, and most people I've played with will typically be incredible people outside of the field. But when you're on the field, it gets pretty vicious.

NNAMDIOkay.

PAULAnd then in other contact sports...

NNAMDIWe don't have a lot of time left. What's the point you want to make?

PAULWhen it comes to, like, things like the UFC or MMA, we've already experienced individuals who can just, without any kind of, like, mental capacity or any kind of whit or skill, for lack of a better term, manhandle other opponents in the ring, and just absolutely obliterate them and leave them physically incapable afterwards. And in moments like this, I find that the research and, like, the results therein is not really explored well enough. And to have a kind of cautious outlook on these things is warranted. And that is all.

NNAMDIDr. Vilain, in contact sports the individual says that where strength and, I guess, size play a role then it has to be evaluated differently.

VILAINWell, contact sports is one of the few sports where there are categories that are not gender categories only. There are weight categories, mostly for safety reasons, and also for some fairness reasons. So, you know, there are a lot of considerations for the inclusion of trans-athletes in contact sports. And we've gone a long way, again, towards inclusion. For instance, allowing trans men athletes to use testosterone, for example, with a so-called therapeutic use exemption, basically allow athletes who are transitioning to a man to use testosterone, therefore making their muscle mass bulk larger. And therefore it has become safer, in this respect. That includes (word?) at the same time.

VILAINHaving said that, in high school and middle school, as the previous caller was mentioning, there is still an extraordinary high level of bullying of trans youth. And that's reflected in sports inclusion. And inclusion is always the healthiest way to deal with sports, especially in middle and high school.

NNAMDILet's hear from Charlotte in Washington, DC, about her experience. Charlotte, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

CHARLOTTEHey, Kojo. How you doing? I'm a big fan of your show. I'm a proud transgender woman. I'm also a press secretary for the last (sounds like) campaign. And I wish people could understand just how much trans people bend over backwards to be considerate in these situations.

CHARLOTTEI came out two years ago, and before that, I played in recreational sports leagues for years. And I haven't played in sports since then. Not because I don't think I belong in that space, but because I know that there are folks in that space who have not done the research and certainly have no idea what they're talking about, but would, you know, feel some kind of hostility toward us.

CHARLOTTEAnd I find it incredibly tragic that there are trans people who go out of their way to be considerate in these situations, and there are a lot of cisgender folks who can't take five minutes just to understand what it means to transition, in the way it weakens our bodies significantly and the obstacles that we're faced with when we transition. And not for nothing, but the way that we infantilize women's sports is really insulting.

NNAMDIOkay.

CHARLOTTEWhen it's a superior male athlete, like, you know, Bo Jackson or Michael Phelps, we kind of hold them up as almost gods of athleticism. But when it's a woman -- like, say, Caster Semenya -- we tend to say it's unfair. I really wish that people would just trust women to know what's best for these areas of competitiveness.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you very much for your call. As I said, we're running out of time, and there are a couple of questions I need to get in. Reese, what are the rules for playing as a transgender woman within the U.S. and internationally? Are they difficult to navigate?

SCOTTThey're not difficult, depending on the level that you play at. So, when you -- the USTA basically states that their transgender policy is that you have to be on hormones to where you don't have a competitive advantage if you're playing in league play. Once you start getting a higher level, then it goes into -- you have to have two years -- you have to have had either a surgical procedure done, and it has to be two years after that before you can compete at the professional level.

SCOTTWe really don't have a lot of athletes who are really doing that right now, but, I mean, I meet all the requirements that they have. And, honestly, I didn't even start playing as a woman until I know that I was meeting the spirit of what they were trying to intend. I know exactly how the other players are seeing me, and I just didn't want there to be any questions if it did come up for me.

SCOTTAnd, honestly, I don't run into too many issues I know the other people talking about. The women of the USTA have been very, very accepting of who I am. You know, it's very, very infrequent that I ever have any problems with any of the players out there. And I applaud them, you know, for their acceptance of me.

NNAMDITiff, it's my understanding that some transgender men or trans-masculine people take testosterone. But this could disqualify you from playing with a woman's team. Has this affected your decision to take testosterone?

CUNINNo, it has not. That decision has been solely based on my own personal decisions. And at no point in time did those regulations have any implication on my decision.

NNAMDIDr. Vilain, you helped the international Olympic committee create new guidelines around this issue. What were their policies? How did you recommend that they be changed?

VILAINWell, I had to do a lot of education in the committees, first of all, initially. Second, I always was trying to push for the most inclusive policies, and at the same time, trying to take into account some degree of fairness, as long as we're having a system where there are two segregated genders in sports. And it's hard to do. And it's based on science, and (laugh) it's based also on just, you know, what we are as humans. We should be inclusive.

NNAMDIFinal question, because we're almost out of time. There's one question. I watched your TEDx talk at UCLA. Washington, DC, as well as some states in the U.S., allow for residents to use a third gender, X, on their identification if they don't identify as a man or a woman. What happens when someone doesn't fit into the gender binary and that person reaches a level of competition, like the Olympics? Is there a future where sports are no longer separated by sex or gender, but by other factors altogether?

VILAINYou know, that's the future. The future is that many more countries -- some of them big Olympic countries like Germany, like Australia, like New Zealand -- do allow for a non-binary gender on the passports or the ID. And one day, there will be athletes that will be on the competitive level to play in the Olympics or in world championships. And right now, the sports authorities are not ready for that.

NNAMDII'm afraid that's all the time we have. Dr. Eric Vilain, thank you so much for joining us. Tiff Cunin, thank you for joining us. And Reese Scott, thank you for joining us.

SCOTTThank you.

NNAMDIToday's show on gender policies in sports was produced by Cydney Grannan. Our preview of the national antiracism book festival was produced by Ruth Tam. Coming up on tomorrow's Politics Hour, we'll take a look back at the ups and downs of Virginia's legislative session and its leadership woes with the Commonwealth's Republican Party chair, Jack Wilson. Plus, DC Councilmember Charles Allen joins us to discuss how the District is responding to recent cyclist and pedestrian deaths. That all starts tomorrow, at noon. Until then, thank you for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.