KOJO NNAMDIQuestion: are you a runner? Are you an ultrarunner? Tell us why you enjoy it. Give us a call: 800-433-8850. It's nearly impossible to get through the day in the DC region without encountering someone out for a run. Running, as a sport, has seen a significant surge in popularity in recent years, and spawned everything from marathons for kids to themed races that are more reminiscent of overly produced rock concerts than foot races. But what happens when running a marathon is simply not enough?

KOJO NNAMDIUltrarunning. It's grown in popularity in recent years, as more and more runners check marathons off their bucket lists and seek out new challenges. And the DC region has not been immune from this trend. Case in point, this October, the Marine Corps Marathon, that iconic running event that takes over Washington DC for a weekend every fall, will debut the MCM 50K, an urban ultramarathon, spanning 50 kilometers. So, what is ultrarunning all about, and why do people do it? Joining me with their answers is Rick Nealis. He is the Marine Corps Marathon Organization Race Director. Rick, thank you for joining us.

RICK NEALISThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIAlso with us is Bob Gaylord. He's president of the Virginia Happy Trails Running Club. Bob, thank you for joining us.

BOB GAYLORDThank you.

NNAMDIAnd Jen Golbeck, you may have heard her on this broadcast before, because she fills in for me from time to time. But in real life, she's an associate professor in the College of Information Studies at the University of Maryland. And she is an avid ultrarunner. Jen, great to see you.

JENNIFER GOLBECKHi, Kojo.

NNAMDIYou're always here when I'm not, so it's really good to see you today. (laugh) Jen, what is an ultramarathon?

GOLBECKSo, technically, anything longer than a marathon. So, a marathon is 26.2 miles. Anything farther than that counts as an ultra, but I think most of us would say that the shortest ultramarathon is a 50K. That's 31.1 miles. And they go up from there, to infinite distance. The 100-miler would be, I think, kind of the classic ultramarathon distance.

NNAMDIHow did you get into ultrarunning?

GOLBECKIt's actually the Marine Corps Marathon's fault. (laugh)

NNAMDI(laugh) Blame them.

GOLBECKSo, I've been running marathons since 2000, and the Chicago Marathon was my home, but it's two or three weeks before Marine Corps. So, I'd run it, and then all my friends here would be running Marine Corps, and I'd be so jealous. So, one year, I'm, like, I'm just going to run them both, and we'll see how that goes. And it hurt a little bit, but all of a sudden, I recovered much faster. And so I started running marathons every month, pretty much. And then I was, like, all right, maybe farther.

GOLBECKAnd, actually, a day before filling in for you once, I was, like, I'm going to go run a 50K. And I hobbled into the studio the next day, (laugh) but I got hooked.

NNAMDIWell, you know, a lot of my running friends used to like the Chicago Marathon, because -- they said, I didn't participate -- that it was flat, that it didn't have a whole lot of hills. Is that actually true?

GOLBECKThe biggest hill is, like, a little bridge that you go over a road. It's perfectly flat. It's a great race.

NNAMDIPerfect way to start. How many ultra races have you competed in now and completed?

GOLBECKProbably close to ten. I've done a bunch of 50Ks. Those I can kind of crank out at any point. If someone's just, like, hey, you want to go run 50K today, I'd be like, cool, let's go. But I've done a couple 50-milers. I've done 100K, so 62 miles. And my first 100-miler, if all goes well, is May 18th.

NNAMDIYou will be running a 100-miler on May 18th. Just to be clear for people who are hearing about this whole concept for the first time, is that a 100-mile continuous run?

GOLBECKThat's right. You wake up, and you start running, and then you continue running until you have finished 100 miles. So, you don't do it over multiple days. You don't go to bed. You don't stop. You just keep running.

NNAMDIHow long does it take?

GOLBECKWell, if you're really good, it takes 18 or 19 hours. Those are, like, elites. A pretty good person will do it in 24. I am not one of those. It's probably going to take me about 30 hours to finish.

NNAMDIIs this going to be your first one?

GOLBECKIt will. Yeah.

NNAMDIWell, good luck to you.

GOLBECKThank you.

NNAMDIBob Gaylord, Jen got into ultrarunning on -- we understand -- a dare from her then-boyfriend, which I cannot imagine that that is the norm. What's the attraction of ultrarunning for most people who get into it?

GAYLORDWell, I think it's -- and I agree with Jen -- it was the Marine Corps Marathon that got me into running distances, as well. That was my first marathon. But I think that part of the allure is that you can -- you want to push yourself. You want to stretch yourself. Wherever you're coming from, whatever you do in work, you just want to do something that other people may not want to do. I think social media now has a lot to do with it, because now you realize that you can. Before, I mean, when I first started, I didn't do my first 100 until I turned 50. The day I turned 50, I did my first 100-miler in Vermont.

GAYLORDAnd now you've got this whole phenomenon of social media, where you can see all your friends doing this 50-miler or this 100-miler, and they're having a good time. At the end of it, they're having a good time. So, I think that's part of the allure. You just think, you know, I want to try that, and I think I can. I think I can do it.

NNAMDIIs there such a thing as a typical setting for an ultramarathon?

GAYLORDNo. I mean, you have everything from the urban-type of a marathon with the Marine Corps, or what Jen's going to be doing. When Jen's doing May 18 and 19, her 100-miler on asphalt on perfectly, perfectly flat terrain. I'll be doing 100-miler in the Massanutten mountains not but an hour-and-a-half, two hours from here, and over nothing but rocks and roots. And Jen and I were talking before, we're not sure which one of them is going to be worse. (laugh) We're really not.

NNAMDIWell, Jen, as a guest host of this broadcast, know that you should violate the rule of talking before the show, yet she violated it, anyway. (laugh)

GAYLORDGave us some intel. Gave us some intel.

NNAMDIRick, the Marine Corps Marathon is adding a 50-kilometer race this fall for the first time. Why did you decide to offer an ultradistance race?

NEALISWell, the runners really have been speaking to us.

NNAMDIIt's these people, isn't it?

NEALISIt is, it is. There was a buzz out there looking for something different, and the Marine Corps has always taken its pride to be innovative, and maybe with the tip of a spear in trying new things and taking care of the people. And, you know, the people's marathon really is the proper setting for this ultra-urban event, because we are going to create a whole new class of ultrarunners who will go into other events, into the trails, into the mountains, and experience that kind of setting.

NEALISBut at Marine Corps Marathon, the Marines are going to spoil these ultrarunners, because the infrastructure's already there, with the logistics. The 2,200 Marines and sailors are out there to support. So, when they're running these other ultras in the woods, by themselves with mother nature, here in Washington, DC, they're going to get all the beauty that we have with Indian Summer.

NNAMDIWhat was the reaction to this decision from the running world? How many people have registered, and how quickly did you hit capacity?

NEALISWell, you know, quality over quantity was my goal. We put 1,700 bib spots, and in one hour, they were gone. And inside the registration model was about another 700 that were putting their names in, their credit cards, when we pushed the button. So, that right there tells you that there is -- people have been waiting for something along these lines. And I'll tell you, what makes it really special for the Marines to be the cutting edge on this is because what it takes to take care of a 50K or a 50-miler. When you look at the biggest ultra in 2017 was the JFK 50-miler at 762, come October 27th, the Marine Corps will be the biggest ultra in the United States, in its first year. Amazing.

NNAMDIWell, the Marine Corps Marathon shuts down a lot of roads around here. Tell us more about the course for the ultra. Are we talking more closures? How are you going to get 50 kilometers in, and does it require a lot more support than for the regular marathon?

NEALISWell, the very good answer, and I would, you know, go on record that the partnership with Washington, DC with the mayor's taskforce, the area neighbor councils have already blessed our course. So, in a very small way, when we come to mile four, come across the Key Bridge, coming into the District, the marathon runners are going to turn right on M Street, the ultra will turn left, run 2.5 miles out to Fletcher's boathouse, turn around and 2.5 miles back. That will give them their five miles extension. Few law enforcement where the turnaround is. We're not going up into the Palisades. So, absolutely, from an operational standpoint, very easy to put off with one aid station.

NEALISOne of the things, though, that will be unique for the Marine Corps is that the ultras love food, different types of food. So, we are going to come through with that buffet, one-food station just for the ultras at this event.

NNAMDIAnd you're calling this an urban ultra.

NEALISAnd I'm saying that because it's on the roads -- the hard, surface roads. And so that's going to be the difference for most ultras who are in the trails, on maybe a better surface.

NNAMDIJen, what surface do you prefer?

GOLBECKI mean, I love running on trails if they're nice, smooth-groomed trails. None of these roots and rocks where I have to like look down and not trip.

NNAMDI(overlapping) Oh, yeah. That's the thing about trails.

GOLBECKI snuck in. I got into the Marine Corps 50K, and I'm super-excited to run it. I love running on roads, too.

NNAMDIShe is also going to be in the Urban Ultra. Let's go to the phones. Here is Michael in Washington, DC. Michael, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MICHAELI really enjoy running.

NNAMDIOh, this is Michael Nelson.

MICHAELYes. How are you?

NNAMDII'm well. Michael Nelson used to be a producer of mine on a television show I hosted. But go ahead, Michael.

MICHAELI enjoy running. I haven't done a lot recently, but I'm getting back into it, because I found with (unintelligible) the only way I can keep the weight off is by running. I've done three Marine Corps and two Chicagos. In my first one, I was 47 years old. And hats off to Kojo, because I ran my first one, and I'm running around Hains Point, and who jumps out and says, hey...

NNAMDIWho helped you?

MICHAEL...I'll join you. So, he ran with me for about three miles, and so it's a great way to exercise. And the reason I did it, because people said, you can't do it, and I did it.

NNAMDI(overlapping) Indeed, every year, I go to the Marine Corps Marathon. I position myself around Hains Point, because I know that is one of the biggest challenges for people in the marathon, the long straight-aways that are there. And so I help people to run around Hains Point.

NEALISWell, you're actually at a very special spot, because they have just come through the wear blue mile. So, emotionally and mentally and physically, they have just experienced a one-mile segment that they have never felt before.

NNAMDIJack Tweets: I began running like most people by doing 5Ks and progressed to mud runs, like Spartan Race and Tough Mudder. Pushing my emotional and physical limits is what drew me to ultrarunning. Really glad you brought that up, Jack, because that's one of the things we will be discussing. Bob, ultrarunning has exploded in popularity in recent years. In fact, the number of ultramarathons globally has grown 1,000 percent in the last decade, from just 160 in 2006, to over 1,800 in 2018. What do you think is fueling this rise in popularity?

GAYLORDAgain, I think it's that people see that they can do it. They see friends doing it. So, if they see themselves in that environment and able to do that, they're going to stretch their limits. They're going to want to reach within themselves and push themselves as hard as they can, and I think Jen would agree with that. And I agree. I mean, I can remember when I first got into ultrarunning. You could sign up for a 50-miler or 100-miler the night before. You generally wouldn't wait that long to get trained for it, but you could sign up the night before. Now, I mean, you've got waitlists for every major race in the country, waitlists. And at my age, I can't afford to wait. (laugh) If I want to do 100, I've got to get it done.

NNAMDIYour organization, the Virginia Happy Trails Running Club, is the hub of ultrarunning in our area. How many members do you have, and what do you focus on?

GAYLORDWell, our mission, really, is to get people to run on dirt. I mean, we really want to get them out there in the woods, smelling that dirt, smelling the air, and just having a good time, sort of getting away from this urban terrain, if you will. You know, we've got about 650 members. That's the largest, at least on the East Coast, I think probably in the country. And they are, as a group, one of the most welcoming, unpretentious diverse and inclusive group of people you would ever, ever want to meet.

GAYLORDI mean, they'll take a runner, and they will never leave a runner on a trail. So, if you join one of the -- what we call a fat-ass run or a 50K or something like that, they're not going to leave a runner out there in the mountains to get lost. They will embrace you and help you get through what you want to get through.

NNAMDITell us about some of the races that the club organizes.

GAYLORDWell, you have -- just this last weekend was the Bull Run Run 50-miler. That's been going on now for about 27 years. We cap out at 340. We always have a waitlist. Normally, there are a lot of people who drop, you know, within a couple of days before or a week before. They realize, I'm just not trained up for it. I sprained my ankle. My spouse has me doing something, whatever. But you'll still have about 320 who will tow the line. And this last weekend, we had I think probably the largest attrition rate of non-finishers. We had less than 60 percent finish. For a 50-miler, that's a huge attrition rate, because it rained torrentially the night before.

GAYLORDSo, the mud that they were running through in the beginning, where you can run, it's reasonably flat. So, where you could run, you can't, because now you're sliding all over, if you're a front runner. If you're in the back of the pack or the middle of the pack, you're running not only on that slippery mud, but now you've got churned-up slippery mud. And then it got hot, and it was a wreck. It was a train wreck for them.

NNAMDIJoining us now by phone is Phil Fenty. Phil Fenty, you are now on the air. How are you?

PHIL FENTYI'm doing good, Kojo. How are you?

NNAMDII am well. Glad to hear that. Phil, what got you into ultrarunning?

FENTYI was training for my first marathon with Bob Harper, who had run 100 miles. And he planted the seed with me about getting up in the morning, running all day, running all night, and then waking up to the second sunset and still be running. And once he planted that seed, marathon running just sort of watered that seed.

NNAMDII know Phil Fenty in a variety of ways. Many, many years ago, when the store on Columbia Road, Fleet Feet, used to advertise in the newspapers, I saw his photograph in those ads. And then I started seeing him in Rock Creek Park, running all the time, to the point where I actually believed he lived in Rock Creek Park at one point, (laugh) because he spends a great deal of time running and riding his bicycle in Rock Creek Park. Phil, what are you doing today? Are you still doing those ultramarathons?

FENTYI'm not longer a runner. I am now a -- moved over to cycling, and I work out in the gym. I'm trying to replace my running with other exercises. My feet gave out after a while, but I did do it for a number of years. I was fortunate enough to complete 54 marathons and a number of ultramarathons, both 36, 50, 62 and 100. So, I had a great running career, and enjoyed it tremendously.

NNAMDIAnd he passed on that tradition to the members of his family, children and grandchildren. When his son Adrian Fenty became -- before he became mayor of the District of Columbia, Adrian Fenty was the Ward 4 member on the Council. And I did my usual, for a Marine Corps Marathon, I was standing around Hains Point, and Adrian Fenty ran up. And I said, where's your dad? He said, oh, he's way ahead of me. (laugh) But you were able to inject that into the members of your family, children and grandchildren, Phil. That must be a joy.

FENTYWell, it is. It's great that they are all active members of the running, biking, swimming, tennis community. And so it's been good that the family is very active. Of course, my wife, Jan, she ran a couple of marathons, also. So, we are an athletic family.

NNAMDIYep, that's my role model. (laugh) Thank you so much for joining us, Phil.

FENTYYes. And I'm so glad to hear the mentioned of the Happy Trails Running Club, which I was a member of for a while. And I ran many races and a lot of training with that group. They're a wonderful group.

NNAMDIThank you very much. Phil Fenty is the founder of the Fleet Feet store on Columbia Road Northwest, and has a family that is all involved in athletic activity. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we will continue our conversation on ultrarunning. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking about ultrarunning, with Rick Nealis. He is the Marine Corps Marathon Organization Race Director. Bob Gaylord is president of the Virginia Happy Trails Running Club, and Jen Golbeck is an associate professor in the College of Information Studies at the University of Maryland. She is also an avid ultrarunner. Jen, we heard Bob talking a little bit about the ultrarunning community in this region, how cooperative they are with each other, how diverse it is, how helpful they are to one another. How important is that?

GOLBECKSo important. I mean, I'm a slow runner, as I have mentioned. And so the competition part of it never was super-appealing to me. I didn't care if I passed the guy in front of me. And so, you know, that was fine, and there's people of all stripes who run, you know, marathons in shorter races. But when I shifted into ultras, it's like everybody was like me. Everybody was supportive.

GOLBECKSo, I mentioned I ran a 100K, so a 62-mile race. It's dark for part of that race, right. You run all through, and it gets dark. And I had flown out to this race late. I was super-stressed out, and I forgot my headlamp. So, I'm running around in the woods. It's 100 percent dark, and finally, like, made it -- it was a loop, and I made it past a woman who was supporting her husband. And I was, like, I don't even know you, but do you happen to have an extra headlamp? And she's, like, I have three. Here you go. Change your batteries.

GOLBECKI mean, the whole community is like that. Anything they can do to support you. I have given people water on runs when they've run out. It's really like this group effort, as much as you want a group involved, to get you through it. So, you can really be totally isolated and by yourself, but any help that you need, I think it's fair say any ultrarunner who's out there is going to -- they'll give you food, they'll give you water, they will encourage you. They'll make sure that you get through it, and that's just fantastic.

NNAMDIHow do you train for an ultramarathon? How do you prepare your body to run, oh, 50K or 100 miles?

GOLBECKSo, really, it's not a ton different than marathon training. And this is why, when I talk to people who run marathons, they're usually looking for a 50K by the time I'm done with them, because it's one long run on the weekend. And if you're doing 100-mile training, sometimes you'll do two. So, you don't go out and run 70 miles to train. You'll go run, like you would for a marathon, a 20-mile training run. And then maybe you do two 20-mile training runs on the weekend. But you can get by running 50 miles a week, which averages out to a couple long runs on the weekend. And then, you know, three to seven-mile runs during the week. It's something anybody can do, if you've got the time to put in.

NNAMDIBob.

GAYLORDYeah, I'd add to that, it's as much about training your brain as it is your body.

GOLBECKFor sure.

NNAMDII was about to say, how much of it is training, and how much of it is mindset?

GAYLORDYeah. I'd say for anything over -- you can fake a 50K, but when you're doing 50-milers and 100-milers and beyond, you've really got to have your head in the game. If you let your head out of it just a second, you forget what your body is consuming just for a second, you forget to drink just for a second, you become dehydrated. I mean, so many things can go wrong in a 100-miler, that some you can plan on it, and some you just don't have any idea. They're all different. The same 100 from one year to the next year is different.

NNAMDIAnd it is my understanding that there's a lot of eating involved in ultrarunning. Tell us about that.

GOLBECKThere's so much eating. It's my favorite part, I think. Because, here's the thing, you run a marathon, and you drink Gatorade. Maybe you eat a couple of those, like, nasty gel packets, or you have, like, an orange slice, and that's it. You basically -- a marathon is just a little more than the sugar that you have stored in your muscles. And so you hit mile 20, that's why it feels bad, you've used that all up. But you don't have to go that much further.

GOLBECKYou're doing 50 miles, you can't rely on what you have, and you can't eat a gel pack or two. You have to eat food. So, we eat the junkiest junk food to get what we need, peanut butter and jelly, M&Ms, Oreos, potato chips. And it's all laid out like we were hearing, in a buffet. Anything you want. They'll make you quesadillas in the middle of the night. But you have to eat a lot, or else, you know, you don't have anything left in your body.

NNAMDIHow does it taste when you're eating while you're running?

GOLBECKThis is part of the mental training. When you're training for an ultra, you have to train to eat real food while you're running, because your blood gets diverted to weird places. A lot of people have difficulty digesting food, so part of it is figuring out how to do that. It's also a good way to tell if you're, say, dehydrated, over-hydrated. Potato chips are a great test. If you eat a potato chip, and it is the best thing you've ever eaten in your whole life, you probably don't have enough sodium. And then you know you've got to take more in.

GOLBECKIf you're, like, I can't even stomach the thought of eating that, it probably means you have too much sodium, and you really need to hydrate more. So, the food also becomes a way of judging what state your body is in and how to get it back to a pretty normal level.

NNAMDIYou and Bob have trained for both ultra and marathons. Do you think ultrarunning has been better for you, physically?

GOLBECKSo, I'm going to defer to Bob on some of this, because I train a lot on roads, and then on the C&O Canal. But a lot of ultrarunners run almost exclusively on trails, and that's a lot better for your body than just pounding out all those miles on the road. So, I have learned to strengthen a lot of the weak parts that I can kind of fake in marathons. So, it's been good for me that way. But I think the trail running is an important aspect.

GAYLORDYou strengthen so much more when you're running trails. Plus trails, the dirt is far more forgiving on your muscular skeletal system. I mean, your knees don't get as achy as quick. But I advocate for people who are training to go ahead and train on both roads -- because otherwise you'll lose speed -- and then train on trails, also. And train on rocky trails, because now your ankles are moving all over the place, and you're really strengthening your entire body to include your core better.

NNAMDIRick Nealis, marathons, ultra or otherwise, are also big business these days. What kind of economic impact do they have for the communities where they're held?

NEALISThis one weekend, the marathon weekend in October, is $40 million of economic impact. And we've done this study with the university. And then when you do the trickledown economics, you know, the 2.5 multiplier, you know, $100 million is generated for hotels, restaurants, shopping, all because of our runners who are coming in through all 50 states and around 60 countries are represented through the marathon. And we're going to see that same demographic, I think, in our ultrarunners.

NNAMDIYou've been in the marathon business for nearly 30 years. How has the running scene changed in that time?

NEALISYou know, the running organizing piece has become much more difficult. In 1993, when I did my first race, we were worried about whether we had five ounces or six ounces of water in a cup, whether the bananas were green or yellow. As you can imagine, you know, since 9/11 and the 2013 Boston and, you know, just recently with Vegas and Charlottesville, the security piece to the Marine Corps Marathon weekend is phenomenal.

NEALISAnd it all goes in play with how the Marines look at this event, is that it should be safe. It should be secure. And our runners who are coming should only be focused on getting from the start line to the finish line. All the logistics, all the operational, all the execution that the Marines are noted for is left up to them. And if we do what we train for and our runners, our ultrarunners do what they do and have trained, then it's going to be a successful day.

NNAMDIThat's one of the things I like about that marathon, is that the Marines urge you on a lot during the course of the marathon, and it keeps you going. Here's John in Falls Church, Virginia. John, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOHNHey, Rick, it's John Durham.

NEALISHi, John.

JOHNHow are you? I was just wondering, you know, in your long association with the Marine Corps Marathon, as you've seen it grow, what things have given you the most pride?

NEALISYou know, it's very simple. It's the dreams. I talk the dreams, I talk the love. It's probably two funny words coming from a long career as a Marine, but the dreams of every runner, whether it's a marathon or ultra, is phenomenal. We're helping to make the dreams come true. You know, I talk about, in 1994, when I persuaded Oprah to run Marine Corps, not Chicago. I'm part of that dream that she lived. She only ran one marathon. She'll always talk about Marine Corps. Vice President Al Gore, one marathon, Marine Corps in 1997.

NEALISAnd then, as a race director, standing on the finish line in front of that Marine Corps War Memorial and seeing the finishers come across, I get to see all 30,000 runners. And I know they're either running for a cause -- in these days, social causes is so important. So, back in the '80s, when I was running, it was all about speed. Everybody wanted to go to Boston. But now, it's so much more. People are using running as their vehicle to do other great things in their lives. And I think that's the beauty of what I get to experience.

NNAMDIAll about the dreams, John. Thank you very much for your call. But onto more practical considerations, here is Sophie in Washington, DC. Sophie, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

SOPHIEThank you. Hi, Kojo and everybody. I have a question. I want to know what you wear for your feet, and how you take care of your feet after running for 100 miles. And I also would like to know whether, on an ultramarathon, you're running and walking. Are you resting at all? I mean, 100 miles is a long way. (laugh)

NNAMDIThere are dreams, and then there are feet, Bob and Jen.

GAYLORDGo ahead, Jen.

GOLBECKSo, there's a great book called "Fixing Your Feet," which I think all runners should have, which is about how to deal with blisters and how to tape things up. And it's good, even if you're just a casual hiker and you're out for a day. I have spent -- poor Zappos, they must think I'm crazy, because I buy so many shoes. So, I'm not wearing a brand called Hoka One One, which are maybe the ugliest shoes on the planet, but they're like clouds. They're wonderful to run in.

GOLBECKYour feet do get sore, but some people change shoes in the middle of races. I usually have a couple pairs, so I can change if they get wet or if my feet swell and I need a bigger size. Socks and lubricant for your feet is a big topic of discussion among ultrarunners. So, yeah, you know, part of the equipment is learning, you know, what works and what you need. You do walk a lot in ultras, so if you're doing one in the mountains -- which Bob could speak to better than me -- walk up a lot of those hills, because you want to save your energy. Sometimes you just can't run anymore, and then you also end up walking.

GOLBECKSo, I expect to run, for my 100-miler, 65 or 70 miles straight, and then sort of switch to alternating running and walking. But you should -- it's a kiss of death to sit down, so you try not to do that unless you really need to.

GAYLORDYeah, it's also a kiss of death to walk too much, because you can get really, really comfortable walking. (laugh) And then when you start running again, you know, this is crazy, why am I doing this? Now I'm getting into that self-doubt. I'm interested, Jen, that you mentioned that book "Fixing Your Feet," because that book has been around a long time, and it really is a mainstay that a lot of people don't know about.

GAYLORDBut when you talk about, ma'am, your question was, you know, what shoes and things like that, it's about whatever shoe fits and whatever shoe is most comfortable with you and will support the terrain that you're running on. What one would wear for a road 100K would be totally different than what you would wear for a mountain 100K. It's terrain-dependent, but don't forget your socks. Your socks are also incredibly important, because they've got to be wicking, they've got to move that moisture away. And don't forget that lubricant, which is incredibly important. Don't get blisters.

NNAMDIRick, for people who have never run a marathon, what do want them to know about that experience? Why should they put their body through this?

NEALISWell, really, it's about the journey. I think they're going to discover themselves. If you are on the fence about running, there's probably no greater sport than running, and then going into the marathons and into the ultras. It's very simple. We talked about it. All you need is a pair of shoes, you need some time. The camaraderie, we talked about that in the ultras. It's also in the marathon. People will share the secrets of running, and will really embrace new people because we need it in our sport.

NEALISWe realize that there's so much competition out there with all these other races that might attract the millennials. And we want them to find out what we're all about. And that's what I think the Marine Corps Marathon is really unique, is because we have these Marines, these sailors that are out there, you know, protecting our country, and at the same time embracing these runners, you know, throughout the course.

NNAMDIJen, I've seen photos on Women Runners magazine of you running with your dogs. How far do you run with your dogs?

GOLBECKWell, so they can't run as far as me. (laugh) My new favorite run is what I call the Golden Ratio Ten-Miler because the Golden Ratio is the name of my squad of five dogs. I take one of them for five miles. I take the next one for three miles. I take the next one for three miles. I do a cool down with the old ones, get ten miles in.

NNAMDIWhoa. Jen Golbeck, ultrarunner and with-dog runner. She's also an associate professor in the College of Information Studies at the University of Maryland and an avid ultrarunner. Also a guest host on this broadcast from time to time. Jen, good to see you.

GOLBECKThanks, Kojo.

NNAMDIBob Gaylord is president of the Virginia Happy Trails Running Club. Bob Gaylord, thank you for joining us.

GAYLORDMy pleasure. Thank you.

NNAMDIAnd Rick Nealis is the Marine Corps Marathon Organization Race Director. Rick, thank you for joining us.

NEALISThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIThat's it for the show today. Our show in honor of Earth Day was produced by Julie Depenbrock. If you enjoyed our segment on ultrarunners produced by Monna Kashfi, check out her blog post with pro tips from the crazy runners -- I mean, the dedicated runners that we spoke with today. (laugh) That's at KojoShow.org/blog. And meet us back here tomorrow, when we'll dive into the second show in our transportation series. We'll be talking about buses and how they fit into the region's transit present and its future. Until then, thank you for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.