KOJO NNAMDIYou're tuned in to The Kojo Nnamdi Show on WAMU 88.5. Welcome. Well, today is Valentine's Day and yet we're leaning all the way in. We're talking about how Washingtonians date and find love. These days it's easy to sign up for a website like jdate or an app like Bumble, but it can still be hard to manage all the options and figure out how to really be yourself online. That's where today's modern matchmakers come in. Joining us in studio is Annys Shin, Articles Editor at the Washington Post Magazine. That is the much loved and much debated column Date Lab. Annys, thank you so much for joining us.

ANNYS SHINHi. Thanks for having me.

NNAMDIAnnys, for those who are unfamiliar what is the Washington Post Date Lab column and how has it evolved over the years?

SHINWell, it started in 2006. So we've been going for a while now. And we basically -- people apply. We have a database and a very lengthy application online and we match people, just us humans, no algorithm, no computer. And we send them on a blind date and we pay for dinner.

NNAMDIWho is we? Who matches the couples?

SHINWell, it's evolved over the years. We once used a monkey just to see how that would go.

NNAMDIWell, how did that go?

SHINThe monkey did okay. Well, as we usually do, but it used to be the editors and then we had a dedicated matchmaker for a long time and then I took over a couple of years ago. And so it's a mix. I do some of the matches and our writers do some of the matches.

NNAMDIWhat are applicants usually looking for in terms of compatibility?

SHINWell, I mean we ask like a very long list of questions. And it's changed in the sense that dating apps have come along and they ask far fewer questions than we do. So we ask things like, you know, everything from what's the first thing you did in the morning to your favorite books to your absolute dream date. So we kind of look at all those things to see what people are looking for, but it varies a lot.

NNAMDILoyal readers of the column are often frustrated by the lack luster dates. This common refrain at the end of your columns, quoting here, "No further contact." Are there success stories that you have to share?

SHINThere are. We've had I think four or five marriages, not lately, not since I've been on it. I mean, even when the column started there measure of success was really whether they made it to a second date. So we're not -- we're very humble. We do not expect that we are making lifetime matches, but we hope so.

NNAMDI800-433-8850, do you think you're good at matching up friends and family? What does it take to spot a good pairing? Give us a call 800-433-8850. There have also been terrible dates. Annys, what in your opinion were the worst?

SHINOh, well, the legendarily worst one was the woman went to the bathroom and didn't come back. Was the great -- we call it the great bathroom escape.

NNAMDIOh, ouch.

SHINYes, that was the worst.

NNAMDIThe readers who think that you purposely pair incompatible couples for a better story for -- because some people think that makes a better story. What do you have to say about that?

SHINWell, from the beginning and through today we actually -- there's a rule. We don't do that actually. We don't match people for the sake of the story, which is hard to believe from a bunch of journalists, but the story is secondary. We're actually trying to match people. And it's true a lot of them, you know, they have an okay time and it doesn't work out. But I think that's true as most daters probably know. That's probably true of dating in general, so.

NNAMDIYeah. Well, Annys is a magazine editor first and a matchmaker second. So let's now hear from a professional matchmaker. Joining us by phone is Jamie Bernstein, professional matchmaker at Three Day Rule. Jaime, thank you for joining us.

JAIME BERNSTEINThanks for having me.

NNAMDIJaime, what does the process of matchmaking look like at Three Day Rule?

BERNSTEINSure. So Three Day Rule is a high touch luxury matchmaking service, but we do have options for everybody. So we have both free and paid options. But it's really about getting to know the individual dater. What they're looking for, what's worked, what hasn't, and then utilizing, you know, my own expertize, intuition, and a mix of on and off paper qualities to find a great fit.

NNAMDIWhat's the meaning behind your company's name, Three Day Rule?

BERNSTEINYeah, so, the name, Three Day Rule, comes from the age old wives tales that a man should wait three days before calling a woman who he is interested in. But we say throughout those old rules and, you know, just get serious about it and give up the game.

NNAMDIHow much do you have to know about a client in order to be able to match them successfully?

BERNSTEINSo it is a process. So it's definitely about spending time getting to know them and what makes them tick. But it's also about using, you know, my own intuition and years of expertize and honing all of that together and to go ahead and use my resources and find a great fit.

NNAMDIWell, let me talk with Stephanie in Woodley Park before I return to you, Jaime. Stephanie, you are on the air. Go ahead, please.

STEPHANIEOh, hello, Kojo. I just love you so much. Happy Valentine's Day to you and your guests.

NNAMDIAnd Happy Valentine's Day to you, Stephanie.

STEPHANIEAnd I just -- I have two stories. First of all, everyone calls me a yenta, but I'm Italian. So I'm an Italian yenta. I fixed up my old next door neighbor when I lived in Kensington years ago with my nephew. They both went to school in Montreal, two different schools, did not know each other. But I knew she loved Latino guys. My nephew is a Latino. And she loved musicians. And he is just the most adorable kid. And I fixed them up and they're getting married. So I just wanted to tell you that.

NNAMDII could have used your services when I went to school in Montreal, but that's another story.

STEPHANIEThere you go and then another thing. I love OkCupid, although, I hope they don't ask me to do a commercial for them, because I don't really want to do that. But I found -- I'm 53. I'm divorced. Found the love of my life on OkCupid. He is hysterical and funny. We're both very political, very progressive. I never -- I mean, he loves me for me. We call each other. And he lives in La Jolla, California. We call each other ranting and raving about politics. He's the best.

NNAMDIThis is the perfect relationship for you? Ranting and raving about politics every day.

STEPHANIERanting -- yes. Well, I won't go into that because I know that's a whole other subject.

NNAMDIWell, love comes in a variety of forms, obviously. But thank you very much for sharing that with us. Jaime, the reason why I wanted to have Stephanie share that with us is because there are people, who are unconvinced of matchmaking services and Stephanie obviously thinks of herself as a good matchmaker. What's the benefit of having a stranger try to set you up as opposed to a friend or a family member?

BERNSTEINAbsolutely. So having somebody who's not directly, you know, on your team meeting a friend or family member, can really look at you in a way that's not bias. So I'm able to be, you know, friendly and friends with my clients, but also tell them what they need to hear. Help them get outside their dating comfort zone, which is huge. Think about the box. Take risks when it comes to dating and tell them feedback that maybe a friend wouldn't share and, you know, always helping them grow with an -- and really reach their capacity as a dater.

NNAMDIAny success or disaster stories that you'd like to share?

BERNSTEINYes, so a great success story, one of my clients who is married, came to me and said she wanted, you know, six feet tall, Ivy League pedigree, all these very specific things. And now she's married to somebody, you know, who's five eight, doesn't have that Ivy League pedigree. But one of the main things was humor. They both have this really quirky off beat fun sense of humor. And I am a big believer that humor is one of the most authentic parts of who we are. So when you can connect to yourself and laugh it's one of the best things that connects people long term.

NNAMDINot everyone uses a matchmaker like Jaimie or gets picked for Date Lab. These days online dating helps people take a little more control over their love lives. But you might be new to this and maybe a little uncomfortable. That's where our next guest comes in. Erika Ettin is the founder of A Little Nudge, an online matchmaking service. Erika, thank you so much for joining us.

ERIKA ETTINThanks for having me.

NNAMDIErika, what does being an online matchmaker entail?

ETTINGood question. So I help people market themselves online for starters. So if you've ever tried online dating, you know, it's really hard to write about yourself and to look at yourself, what your write, your pictures objectively. So I help people market themselves well to make sure they're putting their best foot forward online. Then online dating is really time consuming. So I offer services that save people that time. I help search for potentially matches. I write messages and I even plan dates for people. So I really try to eliminate all of the obstacles that are getting in people's way and once I get rid of those they can be more successful at online dating.

NNAMDIWell, your matchmaking enterprise started when you were trying to set up yourself.

ETTINSure.

NNAMDIWhen did you start online dating? What was your approach and how did that turn into running your own business?

ETTINI was a very early adopter of online dating. I started in 2001 when nobody did online dating. I just thought it seemed like an interesting way to meet people. And my background is actually in economics. So over the years I decided to start a spreadsheet of my own online dating experience. Initially it was to make sure I didn't write to the same person twice. But then I thought, I can track things on here. I can make little tweaks here and there and see if my response rate differs. If somebody did respond to me, what can I do to make sure a date came to fruition?

ETTINSo once I started tracking that and improving my own success at online dating my friends started asking me for questions -- or asking me questions and asking for advice. And one thing led to another. I quit my job in finance and started the business in early 2011.

NNAMDIAnd after three months or so you found yourself being successful in that business.

ETTINYeah. I don't usually take a step back and, you know, pat my own back, because I'm always in the weeds. But it became profitable in the third month. And I worked my tail off and still do. I love my job.

NNAMDIWell, it obviously started with Erika turning her own dating into a science. But here is a question for you and maybe for you, Annys Shin from Matt in Gaithersburg, Maryland. Matt, your turn.

MATTHi. I was just wondering about the guests' perspective on online dating whether or not it's going to shape a future population differently and is different from, of course, traditional dating ways. And how far are we into the future in using -- or how far are we and what do they project biometric information being used for data or for dating?

NNAMDIFirst you, Erika.

ETTINWell, there have been studies on, you know, they have the t-shirt test. You know, sorry to be gross. But if you smell someone's sweaty t-shirt are the pheromones working for you or not. So there are tests like that already. I don't think that meeting someone online versus meeting someone, quote, in real life will change the future of dating. It's just that you have more information about someone going in. So there have been studies that have shown that compatibility is actually higher when you meet someone online, because you already have a number of things in common that you don't have to worry about once you meet that person.

NNAMDIAnnys.

SHINWell, we do blind dates. So the people actually don't have that much information. But I also find -- I mean, we don't -- we're not coaching people as some of these other professionals are. But I would say that a lot of times people don't know themselves that well. So there's other data, biometrical data or whatever, something that could help boost their ability to find the right person, I think that's good.

NNAMDIIndeed. A lot of people do this, Erika, for friends. They help select photos. Read through bids. What makes your services different than just going to a friend for advice?

ETTINWell, similar to what Jaime said on the phone, you need an objective perspective. I mean, you ask your friends to look at your pictures. Your friends already like you, right? So they're not going to tell you, Well, you know, you have an extra line on your face in this picture or that shirt isn't as flattering on you. I can say those things. And, in fact, people hire me to say those things. So I find myself -- I take pictures of my clients too. And I find myself giving the advice, you know, particularly for women. I say, Don't wear something as flowy. Make sure you're wearing something that actually fits your body so people can, you know, see your body type.

ETTINI've had to tell people things about their teeth and I suggested once someone change their nail polish color. Things like that. Things that friends will never say really comes in handy when I can say it, because I am coming from that objective place. And I only have their best interest at heart. So I've giving you advice it's because I know it will work.

NNAMDIDid you ever get angry responses?

ETTINWell, I always ask first, do I have permission to be honest? That is my question that I always ask. And I've only had one person in eight years say, no. And I just shut my mouth after that.

NNAMDIDishonesty for that person is the best policy.

ETTINOr nothing.

NNAMDIHere is Amy in Antigua. Amy, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

AMYHi. Happy Valentine's Day, Kojo. Hi, Erika.

ETTINHi.

NNAMDIAmy you are in Antigua?

AMYYes. I am.

NNAMDIAre you in St. Johns? Are you in St. Johns?

AMYI am in St. John for my birthday.

NNAMDII was there a month ago.

AMYMy goodness. You have great taste.

NNAMDIStop hanging around Heritage Key. That's all I'm going to tell you, but go right ahead.

AMYWell, Kojo, I have to tell you. So Erika is -- Erika first of all is amazing at her job. And she's somebody that I found through a co-worker. So I'm a physician. And one of my co-workers went to college with Erika. And a couple years ago I wanted to start online dating, but I'm very very busy with my job. I'm a single parent. And I really did not know how to approach this. For women, sometimes online dating is a little overwhelming, because you create a profile and you can be sort of flooded with responses and there's an incredible variability of quality.

AMYSo I sought out Erika to help me essentially with the logistics of how to make this work. And Erika took a lot of time to get to know me. She just had coffee with me and we talked. You know we talked about what I was looking for, but she got to know me as a person so that when she set things up for me she was able to really find experiences that I would like. And it wasn't that I had a spark with everybody that I went with.

AMYIt's that as we were together over time, my confidence got better and better and better, because everybody that she sent me out with had something to offer. It was a little bit -- this is what I tell friends. It's like having a friend say, hey, I know this really great movie. You're really going to enjoy this. Here's your ticket. It's in theater 12. Go have a good time. And you just do.

NNAMDIBecause that friend knows what you like.

AMYExactly.

NNAMDIMay be we ask, are you currently with Antigua with someone that you met through Erika?

AMYI'm not. I'm actually with a very good longtime girlfriend of mine, but I did meet someone through Erika, who has been texting me essentially nonstop since I've been here. So that's a good thing.

NNAMDIGood. And thank you very much for sharing that story with us. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking matchmaking with Annys Shin the Articles Editor at the Washington Post Magazine. Erika Ettin is the founder of A Little Nudge, an online matchmaking service. We've also been talking with Jaime Bernstein, a profession matchmaker at Three Day Rule. And now that we have talked with Erika Ettin, joining us now is a former client of hers, Richard Jaffe. Richard, thank you so much for joining us.

RICHARD JAFFEThank you for having me.

NNAMDIRichard, what's your relationship history?

JAFFEIt's been pretty good. I was married for about 26 years and separated and divorced two, three years ago. And when I was ready to start dating, I just happened to go to a meeting of a local divorce and separation support group and it was about online dating. And Erika was the host.

NNAMDIYou said when you were ready to start dating. How did you know you were ready? How did you know you wanted to reenter the dating pool? And how did you know that online matchmaking was the way to do it?

JAFFESo certainly, you know, at the end of my marriage there was, you know, issues there, but I wanted to get back out in the real world and have fun, take advantage of all the great entertainment and cultural activities around here and wanted to do it with somebody special. I also realized I had been out of the dating world for years and years. I did not know all the new technology and websites. And I needed more than a little nudge. I needed a good kick in the butt.

NNAMDISo that's what you got from Erika?

JAFFEYes. Following up on what Amy said, Erika was great as far as being very honest, telling me exactly my best approach, what to put into my profile, great photos that I could put on there, and, you know, telling me what to expect when I was actually out there in the online dating world.

NNAMDIHow did that all work out? What's your relationship status now?

JAFFERight now I'm pretty heavily involved with somebody. It's going along great.

NNAMDIOh, good for you. Congratulations. Erika, what was Richard like when you first met him?

ETTINPretty much like he is now, (laugh) I mean, he was nervous. He was very apprehensive about the process. Certainly over 50 percent of my clients have been married before and I find that I can -- it's the most rewarding for me and it's the most useful when I work with clients who have been out of the scene for a long time. And just need a little extra hand holding in terms of what's new in the dating world, how are things going now, what do you text?

ETTINYou know, what is this? So Richard, like a lot of my clients was just nervous about all that. And needed someone in his corner and I was really glad I got to be that person, because in addition to writing the profile and taking the pictures, you know, I consider myself a coach. And so whenever questions arise or anything like that, you know, Do I call her now? Do I text her now? Do I wait the three days? No. I can be there to answer those questions.

NNAMDIWell, what lessons would you say listeners can learn from an experience like Richard's?

ETTINI would say if you haven't been online dating yet it's certainly worth trying. Richard and I were talking earlier that I encouraged him to be honest in his profile. Not just honest of course about, you know, age and height and all of that stuff, but honest in terms of who you really are as a person. A lot of people try to appeal to everybody. That's why you get generic profiles like I love to laugh and have fun. I'm just as comfortable in a black dress as I am in jeans and a t-shirt. That does nothing. I'd rather hear your quirks, your idiosyncrasies. You know, that you like to go to the Kennedy Center to see sheer madness at least three times a year, you know. I don't know where I go that one from, but the things that make you you. That's what you should be putting out there, because you will get the response you want if you're true to yourself.

NNAMDIHere's Diane in Beltsville, Maryland. Diane, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DIANEWell, I think it's appropriate that I follow up on your statement you just made, because that's exactly the problem I've been having for most of my life. I've done the online dating. And I went to, you know, the dating coaches and the stuff. And it just never ever never worked for me. And it just didn't seem to be grounded in reality, like that last statement that you just made, because there are a lot of what I call closet creeps out here. And you don't usually find them because they're very good at cloak and dagger. And you don't easy find this until, well, you're into the relationship and by then it's too late.

DIANESo I don't know. I've considered maybe perhaps I should do my own site or do this own business where, you know, I should perhaps do this myself, because so many of these places just aren't grounded in reality like that. And I'm a person who's 59. I'm at the end of my life. I don't have time for games. I'm looking for someone to finish my life with. It's not going to be any life after this. I want what's here now and until the end. And I'm just not finding it because people aren't grounded in reality.

NNAMDIWell, if at 59 you think you think you're at the end of your life then you probably think my life has ended. But Erika doesn't obviously think that you are at the end of your life.

ETTINNo way. I mean, my biggest demographic is women over 60 actually. And I'm working with a lovely 82 year old man right now. So you are nowhere near the end. And I think a lot it is not generalizing. Yes, there are a lot of -- we'll just say quote interesting people out there, who you wouldn't necessarily want to meet. But if you close yourself off from meeting those people, you're also closing yourself off from meeting the really good ones. It does take some digging though and ultimately you don't know who someone is until you meet them in person.

ETTINSo I always recommend getting from online to the in-person date sooner rather than later, because you just can't tell chemistry. You can tell if someone is who they say they are until you meet in person. So I would just keep trying.

NNAMDIAnd thank you for your call, Diane. We got an email from Amanda who writes, "Online dating with apps is great especially for introverted people like myself. It's so easy to make decisions and relationships. You know it won't work right away based off the conversations. It gives you an accepted social barrier so you don't have to worry about awkwardly walking away from an in-person conversation. When I was single after a long relationship I tried every app and I became a dating app guru for my friends. I recommended it always to those open to it. It's the easiest way to talk and find people you actually want to talk to. Then if you get over it you just delete." Thank you very much for your email, Amanda. We move on now to Nizar, who is in Greensborough, North Carolina. Nizar, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

NIZARHi. Yeah, well, I'm a 27 single male. I just got out of something recently. And, I don't know, this whole online dating thing, the Bumble and the Tinder, it's just not been working out as I expected, you know. The funny thing is I've actually made more friends on it than anything serious. But I kind of had to lower my expectations, in some sense, because I feel like I go on a great date, and then it's either, you know, they want something really serious, or can't we just go out and have a couple of drinks and have fun. But I think they're over-expecting so much, it's creating problems, in that sense, in my experience so far. I just thought I wanted to get your opinion on that. And, I don't know, it's just an overwhelming...

NNAMDI(overlapping) Well, Annys, a lot of date app applicants seem, like Nizar, to be in their 20s. Does it make a difference? Because what Nizar seems to be suggesting is that when you're in your 20s, you have a lot more choices that you might want to make. So, you're not necessarily looking for someone with whom you want a long-term relationship immediately.

SHINWell, people apply with different expectations, for sure, but I think, generally, that's true. The younger people seem to act like there's, like, this infinite sea of people out there. And the older folks are much clearer about what they want. So, I mean...

NNAMDIAre there a lot of older applicants who are re-entering the dating pool after a long relationship at Date Lab?

ETTINYeah, we have -- we get everything. I mean, I would like to say -- a lot of people say that we have too many 20-somethings, but it's a reflection of the pool that we get. So, I encourage anybody over 40, please apply.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Nizar. Joining us now by phone is Kelly Harris. She's a professional matchmaker also at Three Day Rule. Kelly, thank you for joining us.

KELLY HARRISHi, Kojo. Thanks. Happy Valentine's Day.

NNAMDIHappy Valentine's Day to you, Kelly. How do needs change based on the age of your client?

HARRISThat's a great question. I don't think specific needs, in terms of what you're looking for in a partner and in a relationship change. I think at different ages, we prioritize different things. So, you know, a lot of my younger clients are looking for someone who is social and who can hang out with their crew of friends and who, you know, might want to go out a couple nights during the weekday. And some of my older clients, you know, are more focused on, you know, finding someone who is intellectually compatible.

HARRISNot that my younger clients are not focused on that, too, but, you know, that oftentimes comes up first. Or finding someone who has traveled the world or who is cultured or who is very self-aware. So, those things sort of come up more frequently, depending upon age, but I don't think in terms of needs, that actually changes much.

NNAMDIWhat special considerations, if any, do you make for clients re-entering the dating pool after, say, a divorce?

HARRISWell, special considerations. I certainly try to understand what place they are in terms of dating, and if they are really ready to date again, because I think that's very important. I think after something like a divorce or a long-term relationship, you do really need to take a step back, reflect, see what worked, what didn't, and then, you know, try and figure out where you are in terms of what you're looking for.

NNAMDIMatchmaking, of course, has been around forever. In certain religious communities, it has assisted singles in finding a partner that shares their values, faith or cultural background. Joining us now is Asad Ansari. He is the founder of BeyondChai, a matchmaking, image consulting and relationship consulting service for Muslims. Asad, thank you for joining us.

ASAD ANSARIThank you for having me.

NNAMDIYou created BeyondChai based on the needs you saw in your own life when you were looking to get married. What did you notice about the dating landscape for local Muslims?

ANSARIYou know, for Muslims, we're a fairly small portion of the population in the US. And finding someone relative to where you are, geographically speaking, it's always been a challenge. You know, I grew up in a small town in North Carolina, and finding someone within that region, it's been complicated. So, I've tried -- when I was looking to get married, you know, I've tried, you know, every possible avenue, apps, sites, you know, on and off for a few years, you know, until it started, you know -- by luck, I was introduced to my wife now to -- one of my cofounders, Ramana. You know, so it worked out well.

NNAMDIWas your cofounder just a friend at the time?

ANSARINo, actually, I did not know her.

NNAMDIOh.

ANSARIYeah, actually, you know we got a lead through her cousin that I was friends with, yeah.

NNAMDIWhat does BeyondChai do to assist local Muslims looking to avoid typical dating challenges?

ANSARII think the challenges that we see are very similar to, you know, some of the ones we've been talking about, you know -- you know, the apps and the sites. You know, they generally, you know, do not seem to work out. I think, you know, it's hard to filter out, you know, candidates that are serious. You know, it's important for us to, you know, rely on other avenues, you know. And when we were considering, you know, app sites and apps, you know, we felt like there was a strong need. And that's when we started, you know, looking at branching out as something more personal, high tech. And that's where the idea of BeyondChai came about.

NNAMDIRichard and Erika, you both have experiences with Jdate, which is an online dating site and app for Jewish singles. Richard, you actually used it exclusively. Why did it appeal to you over other services?

JAFFEOriginally, I thought it would be my best initial base to start out a relationship, having similar backgrounds, upbringing and so forth. I have to say, actually, over the last three years, probably half of the women I've dated have either not been Jewish, I met outside of the site, or non-Jewish women were on Jdate. And I had no, you know, issues or problems with that, and everything's been working out great.

NNAMDIErika?

ETTINSo, I always encourage clients to have just a handful, if that, of nonnegotiables. And one of those often is religion. So, if there is a niche site out there, whether it's Jdate or Christian Mingle or Catholic Match, and that's something that's really important to you to find in a partner, then I do recommend doing those niche sites. So, Jdate was actually the first site I did back in 2001, because at that time, I thought meeting someone Jewish was important to me in a partner. After I, you know, did a lot of self-assessment and learned more about myself, I realized that that wasn't as important to me. But it's still important to a lot of people, and so I do encourage those niche sites, if you know that that's something you need in your relationship.

NNAMDIAsad, one thing you try to do at BeyondChai is to encourage clients to see beyond physical appearance. Why is that?

ANSARIYeah, you know, when we first started out, again, you know, we were new to the whole idea. We've tried everything and, you know, when people were looking to get married, they would come in and send me this long list of things that they wanted. You know, 6'1", Ivy League graduate and, you know, all that good stuff everyone wants, right. And then we realized that, you know, that wasn't driving the success for us. So, we decided that, you know, we really have to change peoples' attitude and behavior and the outlook towards the way they see marriage.

ANSARISo what we've done is we've incorporated other ancillary services into our matchmaking process. So, there's a lot of coaching that goes into it. We want to -- you know, one of the first things that we start off with is not so much of what do you want, is what do you have to offer, right. It's very important, because oftentimes, it's, you know, what I want not, you know, what you have to offer. So, we start accommodations on why. Why are you looking to get married? What is it that you want to do? What is it that you want to accomplish in life? So, those things are very important.

ANSARIAnd I think, you know -- and what we're trying to get at is finding someone that they can compliment with. If they have a certain goal in life, let's find a partner that will help you compliment you, and help you get to where you want to be, right. So, that's very important. And when we launched the campaign Look Beyond, we're starting to see a higher success rate, because we're moving away from, you know, not just the optics. Looking at deeper meaning in a relationship, right, compatibly, you know.

NNAMDIBut we are living in, surrounded by a society that focuses very, very heavily on physical appearance. And in Date Lab and in real life, it's not uncommon to hear that someone won't go on a second date because they didn't feel that initial spark. On the first date, Annys, is a spark really an indication of physical attractiveness, or is it whether it's that or not a good indicator of compatibility?

SHINI mean, a lot of times, obviously, that is generally the deal breaker. It's like, oh, he's not my type or, you know, there was no chemistry, which I totally understand, obviously. But, you know, I'm very sympathetic to what Asad was saying, because there's certain things that people fixate on that I think if they spent more time with the person, they would overlook. Like height, people are so fixated on height.

NNAMDIObsessed.

SHINYes. I'm not really sure why, but...

NNAMDI800-433-8850. Do you think it's realistic to get people to see beyond physical looks when it comes to dating, or are we just going to be drawn to what we're attracted to in the first place? I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking on this Valentine's Day about matchmaking. And we got an email from Adam, who writes: online dating is a disaster zone. The help of real-life facilitators or matchmakers are helpful if they are actively working on your behalf and take the time to get to know you. Otherwise, they're little more than business serving, not their customer, but themselves, preying on the human condition to separate people from their money (laugh). He says he was actually approached by one of our guests, Jaime, who was on the phone earlier. But care to comment on that, Erika?

ETTINOh, well, I would be curious to know if this person has ever worked with a matchmaker, because to make a statement like that would be unfounded if you have not worked with someone. There is a wide range -- I think any matchmaker will tell you there is a wide range of skill, professionalism, expertise in the matchmaking field. So, just like with dating, you have to find someone to work with who you're compatible with. So, that's really important.

ETTINI'm sorry if you lost money paying for a matchmaker who didn't work for you. That is unfortunate, and I think sometimes, that's why matchmakers have a bad reputation, because of one person who does that. But I do encourage you, if you do want to work with someone, find someone who's the right fit for you, whether it's an online dating coach like myself or a matchmaker like Annys or Nichole.

NNAMDIAnd Adam says: I'm signed up with Modern Matchmaking Service, saw you at Sinai, where matchmakers actively seek to set you up with someone who really fits you for a nominal $15 monthly fee. Only if a match results in marriage do couples get a voluntary honorarium. And here now is Wendy, in Arlington. Wendy, your turn.

WENDYHi. Yes. I just wanted to share -- as someone who is coming out of a ten-year marriage -- what it's like to go through online dating. I decided to online date somewhat soon after my marriage ended, not because I was ready to get back into dating, but I felt like I really needed a confidence boost. Especially when there's children involved, not knowing whether you're desirable, and where do you even start. And so, in that sense, it was a very rewarding experience, because it gave me the confidence I needed in myself to figure out what I needed and wanted going forward.

WENDYI would say, on the negative side, what it felt like when I started having chemistry with people was that I was constantly feeling like I was on hold until someone better came along. And I think that is a product of online dating, where you can, without anyone knowing, date several people at the same time. And you're sort of waiting for the lottery to hit for you before you know whether you have a true match or not. And so I guess my suggestion to folks out there would be to be patient. And my experience is that people are throwing a lot of things at the wall and hoping something will stick, which can be kind of a bummer.

NNAMDISpeaking of patience, Asad, is that one of the things you have to advise your clients about?

ANSARIOh, absolutely. Yeah, I think patience is very important, and I think, you know, I mean, people, you know, think that, you know, you hire a matchmaker, and they'll get the job done, you know. It's not that easy. You know, there's a lot of effort that goes into finding someone that's suitable, compatible. You know, you may not see the results right away, but there's a lot of effort going in. I mean, you know, so, patience is absolutely very, very important. And we've had a couple of clients, including guys, who've been with us for a year-and-a-half, paying monthly, right, and just not seeing the results. But they were patient and they had, you know, very good success towards the end.

NNAMDIWell, that suggests to me I need to get back to talking about the spark issue again, because spark suggests a lack of patience. Erika, is looking for a spark real? Same question to you, Richard. Or is it a copout when you just don't find someone attractive?

ETTINIs looking for a spark real? Sure. Is finding one real? I don't know. So, of course, a lot of my clients give that as the reason for not going on a second date. I didn't feel a spark. I didn't feel that connection. Generally, spark, to me -- if you tell me you don't have a spark, I just assume that means, I wasn't attracted to my date, right. I just take those as synonymous. I always say, though, the criteria for going on a second date should not be whether you have this firework moment. It's more, do I want to have one more conversation with this person?

ETTINBecause I certainly know a lot of relationships where the first date was nothing spectacular because the person was nervous. You were both nervous. But by the second date, things have calmed down. You really get a sense of who this other person is, and you're able to make a connection there. Generally, when you have that spark, you are overlooking everything else about this person, because you have your rose-colored -- you're all gaga, you know, I want to kiss this person, whatever you want to do. But you're not looking at are you actually compatible. So, sometimes even having too much of that spark is a red flag, because there might be other things that you're just missing.

NNAMDIRichard, how did that spark thing work for you?

JAFFEWell, I'd actually have to say, I'm a little bit of an anomaly in that I almost always gave everybody I would date -- either from initial in person or on Jdate -- at least three dates before I really would figure out, you know, is this a possibility. Where is this going to go? For me, the deal breaker is humor. I've been on dates where over an hour-and-a-half of dinner, did not laugh once. And that, forget it. I didn't even see the point in going on a second date if that's going to happen.

NNAMDIWhat are you looking for, a date with an "Onion" writer? That's what...

JAFFEThat would be fantastic (laugh). Do you know any?

NNAMDI(laugh) Annys, how do the Date Lab writers factor looks into the matchmaking process?

SHINOh, that's interesting (laugh). Our group of writers that we have now all started around the same time I did, and their selection process has evolved, too. In fact, one of them has sort of given up on the personality matching, and she's gone purely on the pictures now. So, we'll see how that goes. But, you know, the photos can also be deceptive. We don't have, unfortunately, somebody like Erika, like, taking the pictures. And so sometimes, people send us, you know, pictures where they're, like, extremely far away or, you know, you can't really see what they look like. So, that’s -- you know, can't do everything on the pictures.

NNAMDIGot an email from Emanuel, who says, after a bitter divorce in 2014, I met my wife and soulmate on Catholic Match. Later found out we had so much in common, grew up in the same town in Nigeria and even went to high school with two of her brothers, and our paths had never crossed. I couldn't be happier in my marriage today. Think of this, a country with more than 150 million people and he goes to Catholic Match and finds somebody who grew up in the same town and went to school with her brothers. Well, good for you, Emanuel, and thank you for sharing your story with us. On now to Sabrina in Great Falls, Virginia. Sabrina, your turn.

SABRINAHi. Thank you for taking my call. I just wanted to share my story. You know, my husband and I met about 13 years ago and -- actually, a few more -- anyway, we've been married for about 13 years. But before that in 2003, 2004, I was online dating. And I did, you know, Jdate, I did eHarmony, Match, all the different ones. And it was not successful, and I was so frustrated. And then I ended up meeting my husband hiking, on a Sierra Club hike. And, you know, I just want to say that, folks, to get out and just do what you love to do and the right kind of people will be attracted, you know, to that.

SABRINAAnd then come to find out, my husband and I were both on the same sites at the same time, and we were never matched. And we're really well matched. So, there's something to, you know, letting the universe take its course.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you very much for sharing your story with us. Ed in Bethesda emails: I have not taken a good photo in 30-plus years. I'm 54 now. Because of a droopy eyelid and a lazy eye do to eye surgery when I was a teen -- actually worse now because of two more recent operations. Anyway, I like the concept of online dating, but no one is going to swipe right when they see my photo. Asad, when clients come back to you and say, I just wasn't physically attracted to this person, what do you say back?

ANSARII think you have to give it a chance, you know. One of the things I've always tried doing is we're now hosting game nights. And the concept of game nights is really centered around, you know, not so much on, you know, the looks or, you know, how tall you are and what profession you come from. You know, the way we structure is that, you know, we place the candidates in groups. And the attention, the focus is on the activity. And we want it to be a natural, organic way of connecting with people, and that seems to -- you know, at least from the few that we've done so far, that seems to, you know, be working really well for people that, you know, may not be photogenic, right, for the lack of a better word.

ANSARISo, I think, you know, my advice would be to try some, you know, connecting with people in person and, you know, really, you know, just be patient. I think, you know, that's important.

NNAMDIAnnys, Ed in Bethesda seems to be saying, can we take the photo out of the equation altogether? Can you?

SHINWell, I mean, in that sense, we -- you know, that's kind of our MO. We are doing it for you, so people don't make those judgments. I mean, I do think that the apps are very much heavily influenced a lot by the photo, and, as I said before, like the height and other things. I think people sometimes focus on the superficial things a little bit too much.

NNAMDIErika, who would you say is your ideal client? What makes someone, oh, either easy to work with or a great catch?

ETTINWow (laugh). Well, I'm lucky in that I have a lot of ideal clients. But what makes someone a great catch really has nothing to do with who they are. It's more where they are in life. Are they ready -- like Richard said earlier, are they ready to be out there dating? For example, if I ask someone what they're looking for and I get a lot of negative comments back, I'm not looking for this. I'm not looking for that. I'm not looking for that. It indicates to me that the client isn't ready to be out there yet, because someone positive and ready says, I am looking for this.

ETTINAlso, someone -- look, I manage peoples' online dating accounts for them. I mean, it's really interesting. That's how the online matchmaking works. I'll actually go into your account and write your messages and delete the messages in your inbox that aren't appropriate. So, I find that I work best with people who trust that I know what I'm doing. Because when someone hires me and then tries to micromanage me, it gets very frustrating, because I can do my job well if you let me do my job. That's why we hire experts, right. That's why I have an accountant (laugh).

ETTINSo, my ideal client is the person who has the ability to go out to date. They have a great personality, they're ready, but they might lack the time. And so they hire me to do it for them.

NNAMDIEmail from Sira: my boyfriend of three years and I met on Tinder, of all places. We were about as opposite as can be: me, a bubbly, outgoing mural artist, and he, a stoic, reserved economist. After a lot of skepticism from my friends and family about the Tinder scene, I'm happy to say we're planning our move together to California to live our lives together under the sun. Just goes to show that opposites sometimes really do attract. And here now is Kathy in Washington, DC. Kathy, your turn.

KATHYHi. Yeah, thanks for taking my call. I just wanted to speak to the question of whether dating changes over time. And I've been divorced for about 15 years. I had a three-year-old when I got divorced. He's now 18. And I would say that for me, it's changed really dramatically, because when I hit the point where I realized I wouldn't have any more kids, I stopped looking for somebody who I might do that with, who might be somebody who I would marry and have additional children with. And now, I think I'm looking for somebody who just I can have more fun with. And that's really changed the equation dramatically for me.

NNAMDIPeoples' needs change over time, Erika?

ETTINDefinitely. Your needs change as you have children, as they leave the home. You have more time on your hands. You know yourself better, so absolutely. Again, I can't remember who said it earlier, like, at the core, you don't really change what you're looking for, but your priorities do skew differently as you get older.

NNAMDII'm afraid that's all the time we have. Erika Ettin is the founder of A Little Nudge, an online matchmaking service. Erika, thank you for joining us.

ETTINThank you so much.

NNAMDIAnnys Shin is the articles editor at the Washington Post Magazine, and, Annys, I, like a whole lot of other people, are absolutely addicted to Date Lab. Annys, thank you for joining us.

SHINThanks for having me.

NNAMDIRichard Jaffe is a former client of Erika's at A Little Nudge. Richard, thank you for joining us.

JAFFEIt's been a pleasure.

NNAMDIAsad Ansari is the founder of BeyondChai, a match making, image consulting and relationship counseling service for Muslims. Asad, thank you for joining us.

ANSARIThank you for having me.

NNAMDIJaime Bernstein and Kelly Harris are both professional matchmakers at Three Day Rule. Thank you both for joining us. Today's show on matchmaking was produced by Ruth Tam. You can find a link to the Date Lab column on our website, KojoShow.org. You can find a link to all of the services BeyondChai, A Little Nudge, The Date Lab at our website, KojoShow.org. And our guest Erika Ettin wrote a guest blog post for us, Debunking DC's Top Dating Myths. You can find it at KojoShow.org/blog.

NNAMDIComing up on tomorrow's Politics Hour, we sit down with Prince George's County Executive Angela Alsobrooks and Alexandria City Councilmember Canek Aguirre for the region's latest political news. That all starts tomorrow at noon. Until then, thank you for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.