MR. KOJO NNAMDIYou're tuned in to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show" on WAMU 88.5. Welcome. Later in the broadcast we'll meet Camille Acker, the author of a new book of short set in D.C. It's called "Training School for Negro Girls." But first, Montgomery County has a new bicycling master plan and it is an ambitious one. It would take decades to fully come online, but if implemented it would include 1,000 miles of bike trails, paths, and separated lanes in the county. What would it take to make that happen and where do bikes fit in to the future of transportation in the region? Joining me in studio is Garrett Hennigan. Garrett is a community organizer with the Washington Area Bicyclist Association. Garrett, thank you for joining us.

MR. GARRETT HENNIGANIt's a pleasure to be here.

NNAMDIAlso with us is Casey Anderson. He is Chair of the Montgomery County Planning Board. Casey Anderson, thank you for joining us.

MR. CASEY ANDERSONThanks for having me.

NNAMDICasey, walk us through what this plan looks like. What kind of vision does it lay out for biking in the county?

ANDERSONThis plan is designed to make biking an attractive and safe alternative for people to get around the county. Get to the places they need to go. It's not just about recreation. It's about commuting. It's about running errands. It's about making bicycles a real part of the transportation network.

NNAMDIYou think that up until this point we've been seeing bicycling mostly as a kind of weekend activity for people and this master plan looks to make it a really basic mode of transportation.

ANDERSONWell, I think D.C. has made a lot of strides in taking bicycling seriously over the past decade or so. In the suburbs, we've maybe been a little bit slower to catch on, but I think we're making up ground pretty fast. And I think our elected officials, our community leaders really have embraced the idea that we need to get serious about cycling. Both to make it safe to ride around, but also to make our communities the place -- the kind of places that people want to be.

NNAMDIThis is 1,100 mile bicycle master plan. There won't be any more of these "Share the Road" signs that you see any longer apparently. In their place are facilities intended for -- primarily for cyclists and for other types of active transportation. They're going to find bicycle parking stations at every red line metro station and high demand MARK purple line and CCT stations. How would that compare to what currently exists?

ANDERSONIt's going to look a little bit more like what you see on D.C. on 15th Street or on Pennsylvania Avenue where you have separated bike lanes. Sometimes they're bollard. Sometimes there's curb. But what we found is that the signs on the road that say "Bicyclists may share lane" that doesn't really do it for most people. Most people are reluctant to get on a bicycle and ride in traffic with cars. So the more physical protection we can give them, I think the more we can encourage people to really consider that as a viable alternative for getting around.

NNAMDIGarrett Hennigan, you're a cycling advocate here in Washington. What do you think about the Montgomery County bicycling master plan?

HENNIGANI think it's an incredible plan. We've been very impressed with the scope of work and the seriousness with which the planners and the county has started approaching bicycling. You said yourself, it used to be a lot of recreation. Over the past 10 years bicycling has turned towards transportation. And I think this plan is -- is a step further expanding who bicycling is for. It's not just the weekend warriors. It's not just those who are incredibly confident and will ride anywhere. This is for -- everyone else, almost the 60 percent of people who are interested in biking to get to the grocery store, to get to school, to get to work, or for fun, but they're very concerned about where they're riding and the stresses of all those roads.

NNAMDICasey Anderson, when you look at a street that many people are driving on, how do you determine what changes would make cyclists feel safer on that street?

ANDERSONThis plan analyzed every segment of roadway in the entire county. It's thousands of miles of road to try to get an understanding of where are the roads that are comfortable for cyclists that people already feel safe. And where are the roads where there's really a lot of heavy traffic, fast moving cars, heavy volumes. The kind of places that really very few people would feel comfortable riding a bicycle. And so it evaluates the bicycle level of stress for each segment of roadway to try to understand where there's some improvements that might needed.

NNAMDICan you describe the options when it comes to bike lanes and how they work? What, for example, are the possibilities for separated bike lanes on streets? Are those protected by posts or parked cars?

HENNIGANWell, it can vary. Sometimes it might just be as simple as a stripped bike lane where you have a painted line on the side of the road that makes it clear that this is the bike lane and everything to the left is for the cars. That moves up to plastic bollards. You might have a concrete curb that separates it. You might even have a landscape panel where you might get a foot or two of grass between a bike path or a bike lane and the traffic. So it depends on how much space is available. But it also depends on what's needed to make people feel protected and comfortable when they're riding the same right of way with vehicles.

NNAMDIHow much of this plan is geared towards bike commuters, people using bikes for recreation, young people riding bikes, or are you taking all bike riders into account for this plan?

ANDERSONWe're thinking about the whole population as Garrett had mentioned. We're talking about the people who are interested in bicycling. But maybe don't safe trying it. But the trips that we're looking at are very focused on those utilitarian cycling trips, things like getting to work or getting around the neighborhood. Not necessarily just going out and getting some exercise even though, any bike ride is good exercise.

ANDERSONAnd so we've analyzed all the destinations in the county. Where the populations centers? Where are the schools? Where are the jobs? And tried to figure out where are the places where an improvement in bike infrastructure might create a better connection so people will be more likely to be able to ride. Not just because they have a safe place to ride, but they have somewhere to go to where those bike facilities are in place. And they can feel comfortable using them to go about their business.

NNAMDILet's go to Richard in Falls Church. Richard, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

RICHARDThank you very much for taking my call, Kojo. I love your program. When I was eight years old, that was 1958, in Fort Smith, Arkansas, all the bicycles had to have a little license tag. It cost like 25 cents. But my real point -- and I think we should do that. It makes stolen bicycles easier to find. It makes bicycles identifiable for traffic violations and so forth like anybody else. And my real point is that the highways are paid for with taxes. And right now all this money we're spending on bike lanes and so forth, bicyclists themselves aren't contributing to the road taxes. And obviously those that also have cars do. But the use of paved roads and paving more roads for the sake of bicycles demands some taxation from the people who are benefiting from it. That's my comment.

NNAMDIThank you very much. I grew up in a place where most people rode bicycles and you used to have to get every year a little license that you attached to your bicycle. Every year you had to pay for your bicycle license. So how is the county going to pay for all of this, both now and in the future during the next phases of the roll out?

ANDERSONIn some cases, we're able to adapt the existing streets pretty easily. So if it's just a question of stripping or even plastic bollards, sometimes those fixes are pretty inexpensive. Certainly compared to what it costs to be a build a new road. In other cases, when property is being developed, we can ask real estate developers to make bicycling improvements in the right of way in front of their property while they're -- while they're building an apartment building, building an office building, making those kind of big changes to infrastructure that they would have to do anyway. And while they're at it, we're going to ask them to include some bike infrastructure.

NNAMDIGarrett Hennigan, what is some of the things that -- about streets that make people feel unsafe when biking?

HENNIGANSure. So I think it's -- let's picture your typical suburban street. You have a lot of travel lanes. You have a lot of speeding traffic. And maybe you have sidewalks on the side. Try to place a person on a bike there. They're choices are either riding on the sidewalk, which means a lot of interactions with pedestrians or they can ride in the street where they're either sharing or trying to share a lane with traffic. That's a very stressful environment that the majority of folks, myself included, don't feel very great riding. Compared to that if you were able to put people on bikes off that road set off on a nice trail or on that same road, but with a substantial barrier between them and moving traffic. It really starts to change the equation of who is willing to, and who's excited to be there.

NNAMDIWe got an email from A.J. who says, "I'm very excited to hear that Montgomery County may become more bike friendly. As a cyclist around the Sandy Spring area there are plenty of places to ride. But bike lanes disappear suddenly and leave me riding in the road with aggressive drivers. I recently had my hand swiped by a passing landscaping truck when the shoulder abruptly ended on New Hampshire Avenue. Whatever happened to the bicycle lane that was supposed to run along the ICC?" Casey Anderson?

ANDERSONYeah, it's funny that your audience mentions the ICC. That was one of the first bicycle projects I got involved in when I was a bicycling advocate and I was on the WABA board about a decade ago. Because I was really upset that the ICC, which was supposed to include a bike way all up and down that highway, certain pieces of it were left out in the name of making sure it was environmentally a benign project. You're building a major highway and cutting out the bike lane for the environment sake just didn't seem quite to make sense to me.

ANDERSONBut I guess in answer to the question we're working on connecting those -- making those connections that are missing. I mean, too often in the past bicycle planning or pedestrian planning has really been viewed as an afterthought. And so maybe the Department of Transportation or State Highway Administration would put in a bike connection if it was convenient if they got around to it. And that's why you find places where the bike lane ends suddenly.

ANDERSONOr even a sidewalk isn't built to the -- to any particular destination. And that's part of what this bike plan is to figure out where it makes sense to make those connections and which ones are the most important and cost effective.

NNAMDIWell, some of our bicycle riding listeners need reassurances. Dave S. tweeted in, "I'll be shutting of 'Kojo Show' if the question about licensing bikes and cyclists don't pay road taxes isn't debunked right this second."

HENNIGANI'd be happy to jump in there. So we do pay road taxes. You know, property taxes and all the other taxes that go into the county's coffers or the city coffers go to pay for our roads. And the reality is if we put things in perspective, the cost of a new mile of highway, the cost of widening a new road, is incredibly high compared to the cost of retrofitting our existing roads to make them safer for people biking. And it -- what you get there is a road that serves everybody not just people driving. But people walking and biking. And it actually often makes that road much safer for everybody including folks driving.

NNAMDIWell, thank you very much. You have retained listener Dave S. for us. We're going to take a short break. When we come back we'll continue this conversation on the future of cycling in Montgomery County. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're discussing Montgomery County's master plan that would facility biking. We're talking with Casey Anderson, Chair of the Montgomery County Planning Board, and Garrett Hennigan, community organizer with the Washington Area Bicyclist Association. Garrett, what does the cycling community look like in Montgomery County? Are there as many people biking and commuting as say here in the District?

HENNIGANWell, as numbers go, it is fewer for sure, but they're two very different communities. D.C. is a very very urban city whereas Montgomery County is far more spread out. But what those folks like, it's a really diverse group of folks. Probably mirroring very similar to what Montgomery County looks like. You may not see them every day. But every hour of the day somebody is out in the community riding a bike. Whether you get to work or for fun or take it to school. And that number is growing.

NNAMDIHere is Omar in Washington D.C. Omar, you're turn.

OMARYeah, hi, my question is regarding a sort of urban -- sorry. Suburban sprawl and urban density and how this bike plan is going to integrate with the larger master plan from Montgomery County and sort of urban sprawl and how suburban communities, you know, segregate housing, commercial activity, work, and shopping. And make it really difficult for people to get from place to place because everything is just segregated away from everything else. Thank you.

NNAMDICasey?

ANDERSONThis plan analyzed the county's land use to look at where the population is located and where those different types of activities are taking place. So, for example, downtown Silver Spring and downtown Bethesda and downtown Wheaton, all of those are within about four or five miles of each other. And they all are major centers of employment, place where a lot of people live, and people need to get back and forth among those places. It's -- they're very bike able because those distances are not difficult to cover on a bike.

ANDERSONSo we looked at the entire county and tried to understand where are the trips that are going to me whether they're made by car or transit, on foot, by bicycle, and where are the trips that would make the most sense to make by bike in terms of distance. How can we make those easier? How can we make them safer? And so the plan is really designed to match up not only what infrastructure is most appropriate for each part of the county.

ANDERSONBut where are the investments that could be made cost effectively that you'd get the most bang for the buck. You'd get the most people connected to places they want to go with a minimum of expense and disruption to the rest of what you're trying to do with transportation infrastructure and what's -- the other things that are going on when you're trying to manage the land use program.

NNAMDIThis master plan took years to put together. The county looked at what was being done both around the region and around the country. Can you talk a little bit about how we got here and how much would the plan overall cost to put into effect?

ANDERSONWell, this plan as I said, there's two building blocks. One is the analysis of level of stress on each segment of road. The other one is the analysis of where people need to go that they might reasonably get on a bicycle. So when you match those two things up, you set a priorities list for where there can be modest investments from the public, where you can get some contributions from the private sector when you have real estate development going on, and how you can use those together to get to -- not necessarily 1,000 miles of infrastructure in the near future, maybe not ever. But you can start working on those pieces that make the most sense and have the most benefit.

ANDERSONSo I think the question of what will it cost in some ways is a little of a distraction from the real issue being where can we make the investment of the dollars that we have today that can start to make a dent in improving conditions for bicycling. And the rest of it can wait for another time.

NNAMDIPeggy is not on the line anymore. But she was going to say that she feels that Casey Anderson is right about the Planning Board. They should be able to ask developers to make bike and pedestrian improvements. I'm wondering, Garrett Hennigan, if that's the view that you sign on to. How do you think the county should move forward with new bike lanes and paths if it has limited funding?

HENNIGANOf course. Funding is always going to be limited. And I think we have to look at the full picture. This bicycling plan is incredibly ambitious. But it's not going to be implemented in a vacuum. Its goals also line up with a lot of the other goals that the county has for public health and transportation. It's no shock that congestion is a big problem in Montgomery County as it is in D.C. And getting more people on bikes is a big solution to that.

HENNIGANEven just a couple of percent can have a meaningful impact on congestion. So it's a worthwhile investment, because it accomplishes so many of those goals. Where exactly the money comes from -- absolutely developers should be chipping in. And in many cases these developers see the benefits of improving communities, making them more walk able, making them bike able. So they're in many cases, bought into this vision as well.

NNAMDIAdam Thomas tweets in, "Love the bike master plan. Can you comment on the time line?" It says, "Bradley Boulevard will done within five years. Do you think that feasible?" In all, Casey Anderson, this plan is going to take decades to roll out. But I guess the question that's being underlined here is how will it roll out?

ANDERSONWell, at some point it's about politics. It's about whether or not people want to support bicycling infrastructure. If they don't think it's a worthwhile investment, it won't happen. No matter what the plan says. But the good news is we have a little bit of a healthy competition set up now, because our Department of Transportation partly in response to this plan being developed started building bike infrastructure in Silver Spring. So then we started hearing people in Bethesda say, "Where's out bike infrastructure? Silver Spring's got all these fancy new bike lanes. When do we get some?"

ANDERSONAnd so the County Council and Department of Transportation responded by funding some of bike improvements you're talking about in Bethesda. And I recently heard people in Wheaton complaining that they don't want to be left behind Silver Spring and Bethesda. I was also going to pick up something Garrett said a little bit earlier about who rides bikes. We're very focused on this plan not only in putting bike infrastructure in where there's a lot of development activity where there's people who are willing to pay.

ANDERSONWe're also focused on making sure that in those neighborhoods where people don't necessarily have access to cars. Even in the suburbs there are neighborhoods where people's income levels won't necessarily support being able to drive everywhere. And so we want to make sure that this plan focuses resources into places where people, who don't have a choice whether to drive to work or take transit to work or ride a bike -- the kinds of people Garrett was mentioning earlier, can have access to transportation options that serve their needs. And get them to places where they can earn a living.

NNAMDIGarrett, where do new technologies like motorized scooters going to fit into future planning around bicycling?

HENNIGANSure. Well, they're here. So we have to be thinking about them. And, I think, you know, when we look around at how people get around, driving has been a primary mode for a very long time. And with new options we have to plan. We have to take them into account. At the end of the day, people biking, people on scooters, and whatever the new technology that comes, you know, tomorrow, they're going to need safe spaces on the road to get where they're going. Whether -- that's probably not the sidewalks because those are filled with people walking. So we need to be changing the way that our streets are designed.

NNAMDICasey, there are been some high profile accidents involving pedestrians in Montgomery County over the past year. How well is Vision Zero, the pedestrian safety initiative working? And where does Vision Zero fit into the future of road planning for both cars and bikes?

ANDERSONWell, I think all of us in Montgomery County are aware that we have a long way to go with pedestrian safety. It's great to have the commitment made at a high level to say we're going to put a stop to serious pedestrian injuries and deaths, but that's another thing to do it. I think that this bike plan is a good step forward on Vision Zero, because in many cases the same kinds of things that we're trying to do to make it easier to get around in a bike are good for pedestrians.

ANDERSONNarrowing traffic lanes to make room for a bike lane can slow down the auto traffic to a reasonable level, which reduces hazards to pedestrians. It can also narrow the crossing distances at crosswalks that pedestrians have to cross in front of cars. So I think that the bike plan is in some ways directly a step forward and also sets up with some of the tools we need to analyze where we can make pedestrian improvements using some of the same kinds of ideas that we've put into this bike plan.

NNAMDILet's go to Belen in Bethesda, who I think is expressing a sentiment we often here in this broadcast. Belen, you are on the air. Go ahead, please.

BELENHi. I love cycling. I mountain bike. My kids do it. My dad has been hit by a car on a bike. My brother has been run over when he was running, different story. So I'm all for it. But it infuriates me when cyclists do not use the road laws. I live on Grosvenor Lane right next to Beach Drive or -- yeah, Beach Drive. And right next to the Bethesda Trolley Trail. And I see bicyclists going through stop signs, going past cross walks, going through lights, going -- just taking illegal turns that are not even, you know, allowed by cars.

BELENAnd it drives me crazy because basically that is aggravating a lot of the motorists and me and my kids' drive. So I wanted to know, what kind of education are you going to give motorists as well and more importantly cyclists, because they need to be a little bit more aware? And what are the consequences for bicyclists not doing what they're supposed to do?

NNAMDICasey Anderson?

ANDERSONWell, I'm not the police force. But I can tell you that -- two things. One is that when you do have good bike infrastructure -- and I know this from having been a bike commuter for a long time, you really feel like you have to do what you have to do out there to get around and get there in one piece. And I think when we have better bike infrastructure it encourages people to not only use the infrastructure but to ride in a way that's a little bit more predictable.

ANDERSONSo motorists and bicyclists kind of understand where everybody is going to be and can -- and avoid those kind of conflicts. The other thing I'd say about that is that everybody should obey the law and obey the rules. And be considerate. I guess the main difference is that when a motorist makes a mistake with a bicyclist, it's the bicyclist who can pay with their life in most cases.

ANDERSONAnd so while I certainly think everybody should obey the law, I think you have to keep in mind that the most vulnerable users of the road are bicyclists and pedestrians. And we really need to make sure while all of us can make mistakes, all of us can do things that are sometimes out of line. We should obey the rules. We need to keep in mind, who's really at risk of serious injury or even death.

NNAMDIAnd finally here's Brian in Rockville. Brian, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BRIANHi. So near my home in Rockville, we had one of these public -- private partnerships to build a bike lane between JBG and the county where the idea was to connect the bike lane to the Rock Creek Trail. And what essentially got built was a bridge to nowhere because the developer built their part, but the county fell through. And so it doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence because I've actually been in touch with Casey's office over this. They'll actually be able to pull off their plan. Maybe he'll want to comment?

NNAMDICasey Anderson?

ANDERSONYes. That project actually came to WABA before I was in the Planning Commission and we agreed to support the JBG users' quest to build a bike path that would connect the Rock Creek bike trail to Twin Brook instead of making an improvement for automobile traffic. So we thought that was a great idea. As it turned out the environmental conditions -- there were some wetlands in the way. There was a whole -- there was some property ownership issues. It turned out to be much more expensive -- difficult project that we expected.

ANDERSONBut we have been talking to State Highway Administration about using the shoulder of Veirs Mill Road to make part of that connection. And eventually I wish it had happened -- it should have happened years ago. But I'm optimistic that we'll get that done in a the next couple of years.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Brian. I'm afraid that's all the time we have in this segment. Casey Anderson is Chair of the Montgomery County Planning Board. Thank you for joining us.

ANDERSONThank you.

NNAMDIGarrett Hennigan is a community organizer with the Washington Area Bicyclist Association. Garrett, thank you for joining us.

HENNIGANThank you.

NNAMDII'm going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll meet Camille Acker, the author of a new book of short stories set in Washington D.C. It's called "Training School for Negro Girls." I'm Kojo Nnamdi.