MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. D.C.'s Union Station, as it exists today, is part tourist attraction, part commuter hub and part retail center. Housed in a historic building with front doors that provide a gateway to the nation's capital, the property at the back of the station, though, is a bit of a no-man's land, with rail tracks splitting rapidly changing neighborhoods. But a new redevelopment plan named for the station's original architect aims to reinvent the station and surrounding area by building up, building down and building out.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIHere to explain the project and what will result is Roger Lewis. He is an architect. He writes the "Shaping the City" column for the Washington Post. He's professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland College Park and a regular guest on this broadcast. Roger, good to see you. Welcome back.

MR. ROGER LEWISNice to be back, thanks.

NNAMDIAlso in studio with us is Beverly Swaim-Staley. She is the president and CEO of the Union Station Redevelopment Corporation. You may hear it referred to as USRC from time to time in this broadcast. She served as Maryland Transportation Secretary from 2009 to 2012. Beverly Swaim-Staley, thank you for joining us.

MS. BEVERLY SWAIM-STALEYThank you very much.

NNAMDIAlso in studio with us is David Tuchmann. He is vice president of development with Akridge, a commercial real estate and development corporation. David Tuchmann, thank you for joining us.

MR. DAVID TUCHMANNThank you for the opportunity.

NNAMDIIf you have questions or comment for us, if you're a frequent Union Station visitor, give us a call at 800-433-8850. If you spend time in or around Union Station regularly, how do you define the area today and what would you like to see change or stay the same moving forward? You can also send us email to kojo@wamu.org, shoot us a tweet @kojoshow, or go to our website, kojoshow.org, and join the conversation there. Roger, you just got back from China. Let's take the whole hour talking about that. Did you enjoy your visit?

LEWISYeah, it was a fabulous visit. And by the way, they're -- it's amazing to see them building infrastructure at a rate that just is so beyond our capability or even our ability to envision here. So I -- this is a timely talk though, to talk about the rail, because they are throwing rails up at a rate that's unbelievable.

NNAMDIAnd I expect the China infrastructure conversation will come up at a later time in one of our conversations. Beverly Swaim-Staley, before we get to the future, frequent visitors will have tracked the movement of scaffolding through Union Station's main hall since the 2011 earthquake. First, what's the status of that repair work?

SWAIM-STALEYThe repair work is ongoing. We have, however, completed the first two bays. So the west side of the main hall ceiling is complete. And if people go there today, they will be able to see the fully-restored ceiling completely -- the regilding is complete, it's quite beautiful, on the west side. And over the next two years, we will continue to complete the rest of the bays, going through the east. So, it's ongoing, but people will begin to see improvements if they go into the station today.

NNAMDIIn terms of the station right now, the historic structure designed by Daniel Burnham opened more than a century ago has been preserved and brought back from hard times. As you look ahead to this plan to reshape the station, first tell us what won't change.

SWAIM-STALEYWell, there will not be significant changes to the historic building, except for the possibility of perhaps bringing back some things that were eliminated in the recent restoration. The Commission of the USRC, our first and foremost priority is, in fact, protecting and preserving the historic building. So we have ongoing relationships with all the historic agencies in town.

SWAIM-STALEYAnd one of the first efforts we're doing in the redevelopment is, in fact, a historic preservation plan. We want to make sure that everybody understands that, first and foremost, that building is magnificent. It will continue to be the front door and, we think, the portal to Washington, D.C. And we will protect and preserve it as it was envisioned by Daniel Burnham.

NNAMDIAnd that brings me to what, therefore, is your role in the revitalization of Union Station.

SWAIM-STALEYWell, we're also privileged to be working with our partners at Akridge and at Amtrak and the existing developer to make sure that this station continues to be an intermodal transportation facility, just as it was when it opened in 1908. So we're calling this the second century development. And we want to make sure that the building continues to serve the city, the neighborhood and the region for the next hundred years.

NNAMDIDavid Tuchmann, some think of Union Station as a transit point, some think of it as a mall, others think of it as a food court. As we consider the future, how does the reimagined Union Station build on those services? And what will it look and feel like?

TUCHMANNI think what's so special about Union Station is that it really serves all those functions you described and it does so beautifully. And in the future, the idea is to make sure that the station can fulfill the needs and the desires of all these different populations, those who live in the neighborhood, like myself, I just live four blocks away from the station and might want to come and take advantage of a restaurant that's there, for commuters who move through the station and want to get where they're going quickly, for travelers on Amtrak who may have some extra time and want to enjoy the area around the station before they get on their train.

TUCHMANNAnd for visitors around the world who want to come and appreciate the historic facility and see what we have to offer just blocks from the U.S. Capitol. So in the future, I think we'll be reinforcing those principles that we have today, that Union Station serves as so many different things for so many different people. And we need to make sure that we reinforce that and build upon it, rather than move away from that.

NNAMDIYou can go to our website, kojoshow.org, and you will find a link there to the plans for Union Station at this point, to the recent Washington Post feature on the project. That includes a number of graphic renderings of the project so that you can see what it might look like. That is at our website, kojoshow.org, where you will find that link. Roger Lewis, Union Station is such an iconic spot in the city and acts as a kind gateway to the capital. What are your thoughts on the esthetics of this plan?

LEWISWell, I think it completely makes sense. I mean, I think that it's a fabulous building. It is already -- I would say it's in very good condition compared to a lot of the buildings that are that age. I think it's wonderful what the future is going to bring. We're talking about probably what might be America's busiest multimodal transportation center. We're talking not just about trains, you know, it's -- Metro comes there, there are busses, there will be a streetcar on H Street, bicycles, pedestrians. I mean, I think that we're missing only boats and planes. We may have helicopters. We can talk about that.

LEWISSo first of all, I think the idea of having a place, a nexus like this, for people moving in all these ways is fabulous. And I think then, to create the development that I think is being proposed between the historic building and essentially NoMa, the North of Massachusetts Avenue area, and finally making the north side of that iconic structure something that becomes a wonderful destination and activated place, I think it's a super plan.

LEWISIn fact, I should plug this. A week from Saturday, in the Post, I've written an article about deck -- decking over places. This is one. Capitol Crossing is another one. Some of you may know about that. I think this is an idea whose time has come. And I only regret that it's going to take 15 or 20 years, as opposed to 3 years.

NNAMDIWell, it's going to take a lot of time because there's a lot going on. One of the things David might want to explain is why you had to secure air rights for this location, because there's a lot that's going to be going on behind the existing station. And tell us about that.

TUCHMANNSure. As Roger mentioned, as land becomes more scarce in urban areas, we are beginning, in commercial real estate, to start looking -- and the urban planners are looking at unutilized areas such as roadways that are depressed, water bodies, and rail lines as the primary areas where we can reclaim land. And doing so, as Roger said, through re-decking -- putting artificial land, per se, on top of those features, so that we can continue the functions underneath -- in our case, rail operations and other station facilities -- but on top, take advantage of the planning practice to locate residences and shops and places to work right next to that transportation facility.

TUCHMANNSo Akridge, a local company headquartered here in Washington, D.C., for the last 40 years, we found this incredibly attractive, the idea that we could work together in a public-private partnership to create more land just blocks from the U.S. Capitol, in the most transit-oriented development-intense project, really, in the region. So we acquired the rights to build in that decked area.

TUCHMANNAnd we've been working since then with USRC and with Amtrak and other stakeholders to plan an integrated project for the next century of the station, that both allows for capacity increase for the station and will add to the vitality of the neighborhoods by reconnecting the areas that were long split apart by the rail yard -- the Capitol Hill neighborhood, the NoMa neighborhood. These can be reconnected by filling in the gaps.

NNAMDIDavid Tuchmann is vice president of development with Akridge, a commercial real estate and development corporation. He joins us in studio, along with Beverly Swaim-Staley, president and CEO of the USRC, the Union Station Redevelopment Corporation. She served as Maryland Transportation Secretary.

NNAMDIRoger Lewis is an architect who writes the "Shaping the City" column for the Washington Post and is professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland College Park. 800-433-8850 is our number, if you have questions or comments. What's the primary way you experience Union Station currently? Tell us what brings you there or keeps you away. You might be able to solve the problem that Jill in Alexandria currently has with Union Station. Jill, you are on the air. Go ahead, please.

JILLYes. Thank you so much for having this discussion. I've wanted to say something to somebody for a long time. I travel east out of Union Station several times a week, headed, you know, to the Boston area. And the section that -- once you leave -- once the train leaves the station, and between there and wherever the Treasury Department is -- I forget the name of the stop, it's the first one -- between those two points, it's just a mess. It's just so ugly and dirty. And I just -- it's such an embarrassing thing for the city, when visitors coming from out of the state or out of the country come through there. It's just really embarrassing.

JILLI love Union Station. That's the only thing I look forward to on my commute, is going back and forth through Union Station. So that's it. Thank you so much.

NNAMDIAnd here to respond to you is David Tuchmann.

TUCHMANNThanks for that question, Jill. We agree that the area just to the north of the station has a lot of opportunities -- leaves a lot to be desired. It is a century-old working rail yard and it has served us well for a long time. But it will require a lot of changes for modernization and to allow capacity increases. And we're going to take advantage of that at the same time by adding all types of visual improvements that will make the approach into the station vastly better than it is today. And so I think in that particular area that you're describing, we have our sights set on that exact same spot as far as modernizing the infrastructure.

TUCHMANNThe H Street Bridge, which is the first bridge you pass underneath, the City Council -- the District has taken a tremendous step and recently allocated funds in their capital program to replace that bridge, which will allow the re-spacing of the tracks and platforms. That bridge will come back largely the same from an elevation standpoint, but with a much more pedestrian friendly and attractive landscape for people to move through, instead of more of a highway bridge as it is today.

NNAMDIRoger?

LEWISJust to footnote what David's saying. I think what people will really appreciate is there's going to be an entirely new entrance to Union Station from the north.

NNAMDIOkay.

LEWISAnd I think on the website maybe the rendering -- there's a wonderful rendering that shows what that's going to look like. It really will be transformative of that whole experience of the north of the station.

NNAMDII'm glad you wrote -- you mentioned transformative because you have written about so-called ensemble projects like City Center and the southwest waterfront wharf project and this one. How do such projects reshape the city and how do you envision this project fitting into existing neighborhoods and effectively creating, in a way, its own new neighborhood?

LEWISWell, I think that gets into some of the details that I think David can amplify. I mean, basically what the air rights development envisions, from what I've seen of it, is a great deal of new construction, new buildings, places to live, places to work, places to eat and shop. So in addition to the wonderful destination in the historic building for eating and shopping -- and I've spent a lot of time there doing it -- there's going to be all this additional stuff to the north of the station built atop the deck spanning the tracks.

LEWISAnd, by the way, we should mention that, as I understand it, there is -- the plan is to do a makeover of the platforms and tracks. I mean, it really is a major do-over of what we have behind that historical building. But when it's done this is going to be, again, an incredible destination that will have so much going on. I mean, it'll be one of the three or four, five places that you would go to be seen and to have fun and to live and work. And my goodness, how wonderful to be living in a place where you have all of these transportation options. I mean, I think this is destined for success because of the combination that the ensemble encompasses.

NNAMDIAnother technicality, David raised the issue of the H Street Bridge being changed and renovated. You sit on something called a jury for underpass makeovers. What is that?

LEWISWell, essentially the NoMa -- there's a plan afoot to deal with four underpasses. The tracks go over -- let me see if I can remember them. One is Florida Avenue -- I'm moving from north to south, Florida Avenue, M Street, H and...

TUCHMANN...K and L.

LEWIS...K and L, excuse me, K and L.

NNAMDIK and L, yeah.

LEWISAnd we've just had a design competition. I say, we. I'm on the jury for this. And an international competition, we've had submissions from all over the world about what to do underneath these, sort of, dark threatening places. They're not particularly pedestrian-friendly. So we're looking at a number of schemes. Almost all of them involve introducing light, introducing artistic or aesthetic elements to basically enhance the visual quality of the spaces underneath these tracks. So I -- more to be -- this is to be continued in a few weeks. We will have a winner -- winners, we may have more than one scheme.

NNAMDIThe K and L Street underpasses you should know are currently two of my favorite escape routes. (laugh) So now you're going to be changing that. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll be talking about reimagining Union Station and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Shoot us a tweet @kojoshow or go to our website kojoshow.org, as a question or make a comment there. What is your take on mixed-use ensemble projects within the city and region, 800-433-8850, I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're reimagining Union Station and hope that you are too. And you can share your reimagining thoughts with us at 800-433-8850. We're talking with Beverly Swaim-Staley, president and CEO of the Union Station Redevelopment Corporation. She also served as Maryland Transportation Secretary from 2009 to 2012. David Tuchmann is vice-president of Development with Akridge, a commercial real estate and development corporation. And Roger Lewis, our regular visitor, is an architect who writes the Shaping the City column for the Washington Post. He's also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland College Park.

NNAMDIBeverly, this project will touch at least three existing neighborhoods and is located within the sphere of official Washington as well. Will members of those communities be able to take an active role in the shaping of this project as it moves forward? And what kind of timeline are you working with this?

SWAIM-STALEYAbsolutely.

NNAMDISame question to David (word?) essentially.

SWAIM-STALEYOkay. We've already been working with the stakeholders. And I work both with the bids I the area as well, as I said, some of the particular groups, especially the historic agencies, some in the neighborhood like the Capitol Hill Restoration Society. We will be -- so that's been a part of an informal process for the past two years, ongoing communication, but we will be formalizing that process when we begin the master development plan in the spring.

SWAIM-STALEYAnd then we will actually begin our environmental (unintelligible) historic processes, transportation analysis, really getting into the details. And at that time we plan to have a very formal and lengthy engagement process with all of the neighborhoods in the region to really help us figure out ultimately what the plan is. We have a wonderful vision from 2012 but really we're going to be, you know, putting all the pieces together and making sure that it is in fact a re-development that works for the neighborhood first and foremost.

NNAMDIDavid Tuchmann, you live in the neighborhood, so are your neighbors harassing you yet about this? (laugh)

TUCHMANNI think what I found is a common reaction to an exciting new project, which is cautious optimism, the sense of possibility, particularly seeing the renderings that Roger referred to that are available online. There's a sense that we could transform something which is highly underutilized to an amazing asset.

TUCHMANNThere could be parks and playgrounds for people in the neighborhood to take advantage of. There could be many more shops and amenities. There could be entrances. We have 14 planned new entrances contemplated in the original vision that would allow east and west and even from the north pedestrians and passengers and visitors to enter the station instead of having to take a securitas (sp?) route to get there.

TUCHMANNThere's a lot of excitement about that. At the same point, for any expansion of this magnitude, whether it be tripling the number of passengers, which is the goal that Amtrak and the commuter rail partners have put forward which would be tremendous for the region from an economic development standpoint, with that increase of intensity comes responsibility to ensure that we are managing and handling that growth properly.

TUCHMANNAnd we have a very delicate and attractive road network and neighborhood to our east in historic Capitol Hill. So there should be, and there will be, a lot of close attention paid by the local advisory neighborhood commissions who will be very involved in those discussions, as well as any other interested neighbors. So there's a long process ahead of us with extensive design reviews and many opportunities for public input.

NNAMDIThere's also federal review processes that you have to go through, talk about that.

TUCHMANNSure. Both the station and the Burnham Place project have a variety of federal reviews. Maybe I'll let Beverly (unintelligible) the overview.

NNAMDIGo ahead, Beverly.

SWAIM-STALEYYes. We will be going through the environmental review process and that we will beginning as part of the development -- master development plan which we are hoping to kick off by next spring. Obviously since the building is owned by USDOT and the Federal Railroad Administration, we are already obviously engaged with them in terms of the best way to begin the process and to make sure that we are, in fact, doing the review process at the same time we are doing the planning.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is our number. Do you travel through Union Station on a regular basis? Tell us what you think works well now and what, well, doesn't, 800-433-8850. You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Roger, what were you going to say?

LEWISWell, let me put on the devil's advocate hat for a second. I think probably what's on the minds of a lot of people -- this gets back to your ensemble question -- is when these large scale projects -- revitalization projects take place, certainly one of the things that the neighbors worry about is traffic, what's the impact, what is this going to mean on the road network surrounding the development. And there's no...

NNAMDIYes, now that you're taking away my escape routes, but go ahead. (laugh)

LEWISWell, there's no question that -- I mean, people are worried about this not just here, but every time anything of any size, even small projects, people worry about that. There's no question that this will -- there will be moments of disruption. I mean, let's be honest. There will be traffic generated by construction. I just saw a concrete truck go by and that reminded me of this. (laugh) You know, there will be some impacts.

LEWISI think what we have to always remind people, is that this is part of what comes along with development and growth and transformation. It's short lived. It doesn't last forever. And when it's all done, what you want to do is explain to people that when it is done it will all work. And I think that's what David was getting at.

LEWISThe good thing about this Union Station area is that there is a transportation network, a multi (word?) network that I believe will be able to handle, will be able to deal with all of the loads that are -- come to bear on that network.

NNAMDIWell, onto the telephones now. We start with Francine in Washington, D.C. Francine, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

FRANCINEThank you, Kojo. Thanks for taking my call. I'm interested in the large scale revitalization concept north of the station. And that all sounds very good but I'm wondering if it's going to be filled in with the typical collection of chain restaurants or if there's going to be a percentage set aside for mom and pops, you know, locally...

NNAMDIGlad you raised that because we got an email from Scott, Francine. Scott writes, "I hate seeing the station taken over by chains and with very few local restaurants. It isn't a mall but is becoming one. Take a page from what Seattle did with Pike Place Market. They only lease space to locally-owned businesses. There will always be another Ann Taylor or Chipotle. I miss the Station Bar and Grill. There is no shortage of the cracker box (sp?) business. Will this new project put an emphasis on local style and funk," (laugh) Scott emails, David?

TUCHMANNThat's great. We like funk, absolutely, as a neighbor and as a developer. Because if you can distinguish your project as not just another cookie-cutter project, it adds to the uniqueness and it makes it a destination. What we have is an interesting opportunity up on the deck level up at the H Street level with Burnham Place. We are connected to the station physically. There will be many escalators and elevators and ways in and out to get to your trains and other amenities. But we're also very much part of the neighborhood.

TUCHMANNWe will anchor the H Street corridor. And the H Street corridor is anything but a bunch of chains. It has a great number of independent shops and entrepreneurial ventures that have been very successful. And we would like to continue and extend and anchor that feel. And at the same point, there are a number of national operators who are very popular and provide convenience for passengers who are inside the station. And those have value as well. And I think the idea is balance, as how do we balance that mix. And that's definitely a goal of ours in our project.

NNAMDIWell, Francine, Scott, clearly there's hope. Here now is Chris in Washington, D.C. Chris, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

CHRISThanks for having me on. D.C. 4 Reality as in the number four Reality.com, that's what I'm representing today because I don't know what kind of managed growth and planning's going on in this city. NoMa is being built. They forget to build in a park. You build in all these street cars with all these wires everywhere as if the climate's not changing and giant hurricanes aren't on their way to our city. McMillan Park, you're tearing -- there's a rush to tear down all the Brutalist building. But heck, let's put up a 13-story ugly cousin to the FBI building at McMillan Park.

NNAMDIOkay.

CHRISThis is the sort of planning that's going on. I don't see any managed planning around growth. There are sinkholes opening up on 14th Street. We have a 15-year-old infrastructure. So while Mr. Lewis and all these other city planners, Jennifer Steingasser, the office of planning for real, you're going to build up all this stuff and change all the zoning code without looking at our 150-year-old infrastructure? There's no analysis being done on the capacity of WMATA. They're cutting lines right now, bus lines. How is this going to jive? It doesn't jive...

NNAMDIThis is a very broad question. Roger Lewis, I hope you can narrow it to a more specific issues because our caller seems to be concerned both about the aging infrastructure of the city and about what he thinks is lack of planning for climate change.

LEWISWell, first of all, it's worth noting that much of the makeover of what's behind Union Station is a makeover of infrastructure that is obsolete or that -- and that is not in the condition it needs to be. And so I would suggest that that's something perhaps that he lost sight of -- our caller lost sight of. I think there's some legitimate questions about infrastructure investment, not just in Washington but in the United States in general.

LEWISI mean, we are facing a challenge, and I'm not going to address all the issues he's raised. But I think there is a general challenge that transcends just the Union Station project throughout this country of what we do with aging and obsolete infrastructure. And I don't have the answer. I think it's a political as well as an economic challenge, probably a topic for another program.

NNAMDIBut David, I'm sure our caller is interested primarily in whether or not this project will allow for green space.

TUCHMANNThis project will have an uncommon amount of green space for a commercial development in a dense area. Right now we're planning for over five acres of parks and plazas within a roughly 20-acre footprint behind the station. In addition, we would include a linear park, a north south park which would be an extension of the Metropolitan Branch Trail, which is a bike trail that has been built in sections but is not yet complete, heading all the way to Silver Spring in Maryland. So we're very aware of needing to create a place which is special, a series of gathering spaces, not just a series of buildings that are block by block next to one another.

NNAMDIAnd now for the original purpose of the station we turn to Graham in Washington, D.C. Graham, it is your turn. Go ahead, please.

GRAHAMHey, thanks, Kojo. And thanks for taking my call. I guess my question is, I can immediately see why this is a great opportunity for Akridge and I think the idea of more green space and parks and small (word?) restaurants is very thrilling. But my question is, I guess, about the Amtrak side though. It's kind of sad to hear there wasn't (unintelligible) Amtrak. But, I mean, the majesty of Union Station ends when you walk past the ticket counters and you see the lines snake past 17 exits, you know, to get to your gate.

GRAHAMAnd so I'm wondering, I guess two questions. One is, you know, how are we going to -- are we going to make the transit section better, the actual transit part. And then the second question is that I understand that funding for infrastructure and transportation is not a huge priority federally with so many other things. And so what happens if Amtrak does not move at the same funding pace as Akridge, for example, with the private sector...

NNAMDIYou should know that we did reach out to Amtrak about joining us. They couldn't join us for this conversation but we talked about them joining us in the future, and we'll be pursuing that. But the ironic part of this, Beverly Swaim-Staley, is that on the one hand, what he's talking about is historic. On the other hand, it's really boring. (laugh)

SWAIM-STALEYWell, he's right. We definitely want to -- and Amtrak is taking the lead in making sure that passenger amenities are approved in the short term. So we want to -- all working together to make sure that first and foremost Union Station does remain a transportation center and an iconic train station. One of the first things that Amtrak is planning to do in the first phase of this project is to immediately provide upgrades to what we call the train concourse, that place now where you go and wait in the long lines to go back and board your train.

SWAIM-STALEYAmtrak understands that that's something they want to show improvements to first, even before we get to the larger project. So that is very important, making sure that it continues to be a better train station than it has been. And as far as the funding goes, we do -- actually do have the funding, a partnership with Amtrak. As I said, we have funded the planning and Amtrak does have money to make the initial improvements. And that project is under design now.

NNAMDIAnd today, as I said earlier, we're going to try to have Amtrak on a future, today we're focusing on the structure piece. David.

TUCHMANNI will say that Akridge worked extremely closely with Amtrak in how we planned the Burnham Place project because Amtrak, as the caller said, needs to have a grand arrival experience befitting the nation's capitol and befitting what train travel used to be. You know, people used to put on a coat and tie and they would go to the train and it was a real experience. And then unfortunately, in this country at least, somewhere along the way we lost that experience and trains became things you wanted to move away from as quickly as possible. The facilities were undersized.

TUCHMANNIn the new plan that we have conceived with Amtrak, there are very large naturally-lit spaces both covering over trains and passenger areas that allow people to have a sense of grandeur that really should be there. And so we've been careful to coordinate that.

NNAMDI800-433-8850, what kinds of services or amenities would you like to see added to Union Station? Give us a call, 800-433-8850. Roger?

LEWISI think it's really great that high on the list of priorities for you -- for the improvement of the station is dealing with what I call the promenade from the very wonderful vaulted space down to the platforms. I mean, this is not unique to Washington. I mean, Penn Station, New York, going to the trains is one of the most unpleasant experiences you can have. And I -- going -- you mentioned China.

LEWISI mean, I've just been in some places where you can sense that that sequence, that promenade, what we -- in teaching architecture, we talk to the students about the -- designing the promenade, getting from origin to a destination is really an important part of giving people a positive experience. I think that that should be one of the first things that Amtrak does in that station, is fix that whole experience between where you get the ticket and where you actually arrive at the platform.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break, when we come back we'll be continuing our conversation, reimagining Union Station, but we're inviting you to join us in this reimagination by calling 800-433-8850. How do you think major projects like this one should be funded? Share your thoughts with us. You can also send email to kojo@wamu.org or shoot us a tweet, @kojoshow. The number again, 800-433-8850, I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking with Roger Lewis about reimagining Union Station. Roger writes the "Shaping the City" column for the Washington Post. He's also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland, College Park. Joining us in studio for this conversation is David Tuchmann, vice president of development with Akridge, a commercial real estate and development corporation.

NNAMDIAnd Beverly Swaim-Staley, president and CEO of the Union State Redevelopment Corporation. She also served as Maryland transportation secretary from 2009 to 2012. Beverly, of course before this project is done, before a shovel goes into the ground, there's the matter of financing to reckon with. How will this project with an estimated $10 billion price tag be paid for?

SWAIM-STALEYWell, it's important to remember, the $10 billion, that's over the life of the project, which would be 15 to 20 years. So it's not that we need $10 billion immediately or in the next couple of years. The partnership, as I said, consists of Amtrak, USRC and Akridge. And currently we are working together on the planning, which is the first element. And that will be our priority for the first couple of years. With Amtrak then doing some immediately construction -- immediate construction, as I said, in the current concourse.

SWAIM-STALEYAnd we all anticipate -- we've set aside, we have the funding to do that, to get us through the planning process. And then, as with all public/private partnerships, for the long run we will be working on various financing options, whether tax-increment financing, value capture, federal funding. We believe that this is a regional project. As David already mentioned, the city has already stepped up in their support of the H Street Bridge.

SWAIM-STALEYSo like most large transportation projects, we will using many tools in the toolbox to finance the project for the long term. But in the short one, we're very excited that we've been able to meet all of the immediate needs that we have.

NNAMDIRoger talked about some of the transportation issues around the city during the course of construction. This could be disturbing to a lot of commuters who might be hearing this conversation for the first time and thinking about future headaches as their routines are disrupted. What should they expect in both the near and long term -- the train commuters?

SWAIM-STALEYWell, Amtrak's challenge will be that they will continue to operate a full train service, just as they do today. And that's why one of the critical planning aspects is figuring out how to phase the project, because obviously no one has the luxury of shutting down either the inner-city train service or the commuter service. So while they will be seeing disruptions and noise and those kind of things associated with construction, the service will have to continue. And that's actually one of the challenges that we're facing as we plan this project.

NNAMDIOn to Charles, in Odenton, Md. Charles, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

CHARLESThank you for taking my call. I'd just to say that that building is not only a historical building, but it's an iconic monument to me. And it's valuable as any other memorial or monument within the city of Washington, D.C. And any renovation project should be funded by the government. But a $10 billion project -- I can't imagine beautifying this building. I was born in Washington, D.C., and eventually my family moved to Florida.

CHARLESAnd my fondest memories were of traveling back and forth on the train from Florida to Union Station and back. And that was a beautiful building and I loved it and always remember it. And…

NNAMDIYou don't want to see it changed significantly.

CHARLESWell, one of the biggest changes already is the seating. They used to have nice big high-back wooden seating in there, where people could sit while they're waiting for trains. But the last time I went there there was nothing but hard rocks to sit on. So…

NNAMDIThat is…

CHARLESAnd if they're going to turn it into a big mall, then that's not going to be good for the people.

NNAMDIWell, I suspect David Tuchmann can address the issue of whether or not there's going to be appropriate seating for people who are traveling.

TUCHMANNThat I'll actually turn over to Beverly.

NNAMDIOh, sure. Beverly?

SWAIM-STALEYSure. Thank you very much. I love the building also. And I want to assure you that we are not going to be altering the historic building.

NNAMDIAllow me to get Judith's email in because it's along the same line. "I fell in love with Union Station when I arrived from Michigan to start teaching at Cardoza High School. There is nothing ugly about Union Station. Ugly is in the eye of the beholder who may not be familiar with our city, nor with the history of Union Station." Please continue, Beverly.

SWAIM-STALEYAnd I completely agree with her, which is why we are going to be working very hard to make sure that while we want the new development and we want the better transportation at the station, that we absolutely want these things without changing the architecture and the wonderful features. So the look of historic Union Station will not change. The $10 billion that we talk about is for the rail infrastructure and the Burnham Place redevelopment.

SWAIM-STALEYSo we are actually working now to restore the Main Hall. I think over the next couple of years people will begin to see again some of the magnificence that we they appreciated in the early days of train travel. We do want to -- once we finish the repair work from the earthquake, to bring back more seating in the Main Hall and to really do more to, again, make it part of the train experience. So I completely agree with your caller. And we will -- we want to do everything we can to continue to bring honor to this magnificent building.

NNAMDIBridget, (sic) thank you for your call. Roger, this is the kind of project for which everyone will have an opinion. And David, of course, actually lives in the neighborhood. But having worked on major projects before, how crucial is it for the community, the community that is likely to be most affected -- that is those people who live there -- to -- how crucial is it for them to feel involved in the process moving forward? And maybe the community at large, the broader community.

LEWISWell, I think with projects of this scale that's always important, to have the community involved. And I think that there's no question that they're going to be involved. I think Beverly and David have always -- already made clear that that's part of the process. And I think what it means is both talking with people in the community, citizens and institutions, civic organizations, about what's -- what the aspirations are, listening to their concerns, taking under advisement those concerns.

LEWISIt doesn't mean they'll be met. I -- we've talked several times on this program how there are certain people who -- when they are attending these meetings or hearings are listened to and then when something is decided that doesn't agree with them they think you didn't listen, which is always, in my opinion, an unjustifiable accusation. I think it's very important part of it. This is a very technically complicated process. And I think that that's something the public should be reminded.

LEWISThis is -- this will be a -- this phasing, the staging of this will be a major challenge to build while continuing operations, which is going to be facing, by the way, some other development, where they're decking over existing infrastructure. This is -- everyone should appreciate how challenging that would be.

NNAMDII'm glad you mentioned that. And if you called, stay on the line. We will get to your calls. But, Roger, your point flows into this question that is for all three of you. With so many stakeholders, so many people, so -- corporations, government agencies, both local and federal, involved in this property, both already and some potentially, just how do you manage a project like this? I don't -- who cares to start? Beverly?

SWAIM-STALEYWell, I'll -- I'm happy to start. I think the Union Station Redevelopment Corporation is in a unique position. As I said, the building is owned by the federal government, but it has been operated for 25 years being leased to a non-profit. And, obviously, then being managed by a private developer. So it already has a lot of stakeholders. And we, of course, it's been -- Amtrak has also been part of that partnership for a number of years. So I think that there's precedent for making sure that you bring in all the various stakeholders that you need, public, private.

SWAIM-STALEYOn the USRC Board, for example, the chairman is the USDOC secretary, the Federal Railroad Administrator is on it, the mayor of the District of Columbia, the Federal City Council, as well as the president of Amtrak. So I think that really provides a good foundation for bringing in both the public and private business and corporation concerns that we need to complete a project of this magnitude.

NNAMDIDavid Tuchmann?

TUCHMANNWhat I've found -- and I get this question a lot. And I'm working on the project for seven years so far. And often people say, "How do you keep things moving in the right direction with so many balls in the air, so many considerations?" And the first thing I say is that we've all, amongst the partnership, decided upon common goals. And those goals are very simple. They're increase capacity -- and capacity predominately for the transportation facilities that are there.

TUCHMANNImprove the experience. And that could be both for passengers, as well as visitors and neighbors. And then enhance the vitality of not only the neighborhood, but also the region and even the Northeast Corridor. And if you agree upon broad goals, it helps you always focus back and reprioritize what you're looking to do. I think the other thing is we always make sure we're working both on the micro and the macro level.

TUCHMANNAs you could imagine, we can be in one meeting for seven hours, talking about mechanically ventilating an area with trains and diesel fumes. That's important. That's an important life safety piece of information. But we can't lose sight of the funding and the financing and the approvals and how we're going to actually effectuate the project. So we have to be at the micro and the macro simultaneously.1

NNAMDIRoger?

LEWISIn addition to orchestrating or I like to use the word choreographing all of these different stakeholders, the transportation choreography is very complex. I mean, we're talking about parking, we're talking about busses, commuter trains, Amtrak. You know, it's a -- just working out -- solving the puzzle -- I think we can best describe it as a multidimensional -- it's more than three dimensions, because there's the dimension of time.

LEWISThat, in itself, is an extraordinarily challenging part of this project, is to get all of these movements, all of these vehicles, and all of these conveyances, not to mention the escalators and elevator. This is an extremely complicated project. And it's probably good that it's not being done by only one entity. But it will require masterful choreography.

NNAMDIOn to Bridget, in Silver Spring, Md. Bridget, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BRIDGETHi. Thanks so much for taking my call. I'd just like to ask your guests their opinions of green roof technology. And if there's any opportunity for installing green roofs on the Burnham Place project. And I'll take my answer off the air.

NNAMDIFirst, Roger, your opinion of green roof technology, and then, David, the likelihood.

LEWISWell, I think it's been made clear that sustainability, making this project more greener than it is today is one of the goals. I suspect that no one would disagree with that. Green roof technology is -- has a cost. If you do -- if -- it's -- or a capital cost, over time it will pay or itself. I would defer to David on this. You probably have some specifics that you want to share.

TUCHMANNSure. I think green roofs, which have a number of benefits -- and we've been using them on all of our recent office buildings that we have constructed, predominately for stormwater management benefits, as well as heating and cooling improvements, as the building doesn't take on as much heat. Our strategy is we will absolutely use at Burnham Place. We have, potentially, the largest stormwater challenge you can imagine, which is to look at 20 full acres of what would be fully impervious area.

TUCHMANNAnd then to be building structure that needs to capture and reuse as much of that water as possible. So you'll see green roofs on the Burnham Place buildings and also on Amtrak's original concept that they released there was green roof on a new train hall, a central feature -- a beautiful piece of architecture covering over a section of the tracks and platform. So I think you'll see green roofs to be a major technology in the project.

NNAMDIOn to Jim, in Suitland, Md. Jim, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JIMHi. You may have sort of touched on this before, but the north end of the building currently is mostly devoted to inner-city transit busses. And the train passengers have to come in on the south side to go all the way to the north side to use the trains, even for charter busses to drop off passengers for the train. They used to be able to go up top, but the inner-city transit busses have gotten so busy that they have to drop those people in front with all their luggage. And people on the inner-city transit busses are mostly, you know, go to Metro, if they're going to, you know, use the inner-modal aspect of it.

JIMLike, so I'm just wondering, you know, what are you going to do with those inner-city transit busses? Because in terms of usability, what you do with that is going to affect how really useful the building's going to be for a lot of people.

NNAMDIHave we gotten to that point yet, Beverly?

SWAIM-STALEYThat's one of the issues that we'll be dealing with in the redevelopment. We have -- I think the good news is that we do have a very strong inner-city bus operation now here in Washington, D.C., out of Union Station. Bus travel has become extremely popular. So one of the challenges that we face in the redevelopment, as Roger referred to choreography, is in fact phasing the project such that we are able to relocate all of the operations that we have now -- and inner-city bus is one of those -- from the parking garage so that eventually we will have to take the parking garage down so that then Burnham Place can build on the west side of the project.

SWAIM-STALEYSo we are looking now at the best place to relocate both the busses, the taxi and, you know, all of the traffic that will be accessing the station that currently go in now from both the north side, the west side and the front side. So it's a very good question and it will be one of the challenges that we have in the planning process.

NNAMDIWe're almost out of time, but Susan emails to ask, "I'd like you to address safety issues with new construction expanded over existing rail. Since that horrific Canadian rail accident, my question is whether or not freight and tankers cross D.C. or enter Union Station. Even without added structures, that is a concern if freight does come through." You only have about 20 seconds left, David Tuchmann.

TUCHMANNSure. The easy answer is that freight does not pass through Union Station. And so that's something that we don't need to concern ourselves with, however, safety and security we absolutely do need to concern ourselves with. And we have a team of consultants, engineers right now just beginning the preliminary process to determine what are the safety and security measures that we should be putting in place for as far as protection and terrorism and things like that.

NNAMDIDavid Tuchmann is vice president of development with Akridge, a commercial real estate and development corporation. Beverly Swaim-Staley is the president and CEO of the Union Station Redevelopment Corporation. And Roger Lewis is an architect who writes the "Shaping the City" column for the Washington Post and is professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland, College Park. Thank you all for joining us. And thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.