MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5, at American University, in Washington, welcome to "The Politics Hour," starting Tom Sherwood. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

MR. KOJO NNAMDITom Sherwood is our resident analyst. He's a reporter at NBC 4 and columnist for the Current Newspapers. Tom, welcome.

MR. TOM SHERWOODGood Friday afternoon to you.

NNAMDIAlso joining us in studio is Jon Cardin. He's a Democratic candidate for attorney general for the State of Maryland. He's a member of the Maryland House of Delegates, whose district includes parts of Baltimore County. Delegate Cardin, thank you for joining us.

REP. JON CARDINKojo, it's an honor to be here and I've always been a big fan.

NNAMDIThanks a lot. If you have questions or comments for Delegate Cardin, give us a call, 800-433-8850 or send email to kojo@wamu.org. You can send us a tweet @kojoshow. Tom, I'll start off with the District of Columbia, where former at-large Council member Michael Brown was sentenced to 39 months in jail, pleading guilty to accepting $55,000 in cash -- he made that plea in June -- from undercover FBI agents posing as corrupt government contractors seeking to do business with the city.

NNAMDIYou, like I, have known Michael Brown for many, many years. But when he said that he was caught up in a culture of corruption running rampant in our city, it seems to me that what he was saying is, "It's not really my fault. It's a cultural thing." Well, cultures of corruption are created by leaders, elected officials or appointed leaders, who are willing to do criminal things, to accept bribes and do such things. So it's difficult to say when you have created a culture that you were somehow caught up in the culture.

SHERWOODThat was an outrageous statement. If I had been Judge Ricky Roberts I would -- the courthouse doors would have been locked, and he would have been sent to the jail in the basement of that courthouse, never to be let out again. The idea that he could say he was caught up in a culture of corruption, that he -- I guess he said existed, he just fell into it. Well, now the prosecutor, Michael Atkinson, in court -- I wasn't there, but my -- Mark Seagraves from NBC 4 was there.

SHERWOODBut I read this. Michael Atkinson said, "This is not what happened." He didn't dip his foot into the corruption. He didn't fall into corruption. He went all in. He was the -- he was the one buying -- he couldn't pay his mortgage and he couldn't pay his bills and he couldn't pay for his luxury cars. He made those decisions.

SHERWOODNobody had a culture of corruption. I mean, I just cannot believe he -- that was said in the court. And somebody just didn't whack him with one of those law books down there. He got 39 months. He's -- he ought to be glad I'm not the judge.

NNAMDIHe could have gotten more than that if Tom Sherwood happened to be the judge in that case, but one -- go ahead.

SHERWOODI was just going to say, let's see how stupid he was and how desperate he was. He started taking money from who he thought were businessmen -- and they were undercover FBI guys -- in July of 2012. That is the same month that Jeanne Clark Harris was in federal court pleading guilty to the $650,000 scheme to help elect Mayor Gray mayor in 2010. It's the same Jeanne Clark Harris who had orchestrated the monies to Michael Brown.

SHERWOODSo even as he knew the web of culture that he helped create was starting to unravel, he was taking money. I have not seen him in person. How could he be so stupid? When Harry Thomas got convicted for stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from kids sports programs, I wanted to hit him with one of those baseball bats he didn't buy.

NNAMDIThat would be a violent act, Tom, and you are not a violent person.

SHERWOODWell, I wouldn't actually do it, but I'm speaking rhetorically here, Kojo. Don't interrupt my rant. And I don't know what I would say. You know, Seagraves told me that before…

NNAMDIThat would be Mark Seagraves of NBC 4.

SHERWOODRight. I mentioned him earlier…

NNAMDIOh.

SHERWOOD…in my rant.

NNAMDIAll right.

SHERWOODBefore the courthouse door opened yesterday, Brown showed up and there were friends and some family members out in the hallway. And there was Michael Brown glad-handing people in the hallway. It -- the culture of corruption, indeed.

NNAMDIWell, you know, Delegate Cardin, I am sure that there are always people in whatever jurisdiction one happens to be in who are looking to give money to elected or appointed leaders in return for favors of some sort. That cannot happen if the elected or appointed leader is not willing to do that. So to say that a culture of corruption merely exists is to say that you deny any role in creating that culture.

CARDINYou have to accept responsibility for things that you do wrong. Number one, that's a sign of character. But the other thing is that, you know, we've -- in Maryland, we've been looking at public funding of campaigns as a really legitimate policy to try and give people an option to vote for people who do not -- who choose not to take money from special interests. And that is the way that you can, you can buffer yourself from this culture of corruption.

NNAMDIBecause what happened in the case of Michael Brown is that this investigation had been going on for some time, involving political campaigns and people getting money and involving other Council members who had taken money and used it for nefarious reasons. But he did this in the middle of knowing that this investigation was taking place.

SHERWOODAnd even when he was supposedly cooperating with the prosecutors, I mean, even the prosecutors acknowledged yesterday in court that he didn't really help them. He tried to obscure and never mention or lead them to other acts that they actually found out about with no help from him. And that's why he got 39 months. I mean, they really wanted him -- something like 44 months. You know, every day in jail is a long time.

SHERWOODSo 39 months. And now he's asking to be sent to -- down in -- I think it's Alabama. I think where Harry Thomas is. That would be the last thing I would do is put those two guys in the same prison.

NNAMDIIf you go to our website, kojoshow.org, you can see a live video stream of the conversation we are having right now. Our guest is Jon Cardin. He's a Democratic candidate for attorney general of the State of Maryland. He's currently a member of the Maryland House of Delegates. And speaking of Maryland, Tom Sherwood, Delegate Cardin, there was a television debate this week involving the three candidates running for governor.

NNAMDIOnly two of them showed up. The one who was ahead in the polls, Lt. Gov. Anthony Brown, did not show up. He says that he did not think that this debate was a part of the agreement. There seems to be a difference of opinion between how many debates that all candidates agreed on. The two other candidates said we agreed four. He said we only agreed on three. Regardless of it, the fact that he didn't show up meant two things.

NNAMDIOne, it gave the other candidates the opportunity not only to advocate their positions and, in the case of Doug Gansler, attack Anthony Brown. Two, it certainly gave the impression that because he is ahead in the polls, and because he's got a lot of money, he doesn't feel he has to do this. That's there's a disadvantage.

SHERWOODIt's a classic front-runner, sitting on the lead, type of deal. You know, it was really bad…

NNAMDIDon't say that's what Muriel Bower's doing here in D.C.

SHERWOODWell, we're not going to -- I'm not going to get -- you know, I'm not going to draw…

NNAMDIDon't say that.

SHERWOOD…city politics into everything I say about Maryland and Virginia. I was accused of that once. I'm not doing it today. I'll tell you what is bad for Anthony Brown is, you know, his lead is fairly soft if you look at the polls. I haven't seen any recent ones, but of all the ones I've seen. You know, that's pretty devastating. You look at the television and there in the middle of the stage was the -- the lectern, it's not podium. You stand on the podium, you stand behind a lectern.

SHERWOODThe lectern had his name and he wasn't there. And Heather Mizeur was on this one side and Doug Gansler on the other. And why wasn't he there? What did he tell us he was doing because he couldn't be there? Do you know?

NNAMDII…

SHERWOODI don't think he's ever said, to answer my own question. But where was…

NNAMDIHe said he didn't have to be.

SHERWOODIt was inconvenient, oh, the rules weren't set up right. This isn't presidential debates where they're trying to lead the country. This is to lead the State of Maryland. And somehow or another your campaign, with all your advisors and all your money, you can't -- well, I feel like I'm in a bad mood today. I'm sorry you're here, Mr. Cardin.

CARDINThat's okay.

SHERWOODYou're next.

CARDINNo.

SHERWOODBut why couldn't he go to that debate? Why couldn't he say, you know, we didn't agree on this, but…

NNAMDIBecause an increasing number of politicians believe that there are too many debates that precede these campaigns and that a lot of times if they are doing well in the polls and if they're raising enough money, then participation in every single debate isn't absolutely necessary. What do you say, Delegate Cardin?

CARDINWell, first of all, I'll leave the political calculations up to the pundits. You guys are doing a good job of deciding all that. The issue that we have, though, is neglecting people how have an opportunity to learn about the politicians and the people running for office. The fact of the matter is, is that in this year's election, because it's in June, we had to change the date from September to June because of a change in federal law, the Overseas Voter Act -- Military and Overseas Voter Act required us to change it to earlier.

CARDINAnd many people -- it's not that they are not aware that there's an election going on, they're just not aware, not paying attention to the candidates, they're not paying attention to the issues. And if you don't give people every opportunity to start paying attention, there could be people, voters, that might take -- be feeling like they're being taken for granted, choose to stay at home because it's just not convenient for them.

CARDINAnd my job, as the election law chair of the general assembly, has been to try and make elections as convenient and safe and fair for as -- for every single voter in the State of Maryland that has the ability and the eligibility to be able to vote. And we want to, as politicians, we want to make sure we encourage people to get out and vote.

SHERWOODAnd, you know, if he -- if Anthony Brown intends to be governor, if he thinks he's going to have a calendar set and everything will be agreed to in advance and he'll do this and he'll do that, the rough-and-tumble of public life in a legislature is extraordinary. You just can't say you'll set the agenda and then stick to your schedule. I don't -- he should tell people where he was and exactly what he was doing because he wasn't at that debate.

NNAMDIFeel free to call, Lt. Governor, 800-433-8850. Tom Sherwood is our resident analyst. He's a reporter at NBC 4 and a columnist for the Current Newspapers. Our current guest is Jon Cardin, Democratic candidate for attorney general of the State of Maryland. He's a member of the Maryland House of Delegates. His district includes parts of Baltimore County. If you have questions or comments for him, 800-433-8850. You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Send us a tweet @kojoshow.

NNAMDIYou can also watch our live video stream at our website, kojoshow.org. We'll talk about the job you're running for in a minute, Delegate Cardin, but a lot of this race lately has been about your old job. And I was going to raise the first question about that, but, frankly, Mary, in Silver Spring, seems ready to ask the exact question I was going to ask. So allow me to bring Mary in. Mary, you are on the air. Go ahead, please.

MARYThank you. I'm going to follow up because Delegate Cardin just talked about the importance of showing up to vote in any circumstances. And I'm a working mother and grandmother. And so over my career I've had to make difficult choices about balancing work and family. And I've known that these choices have consequences. This year, Delegate Cardin, you made a choice, when, as a Maryland State legislator, you missed 75 percent of the votes on your committee, which was called unacceptable attendance by many of your fellow state lawmakers.

MARYAnd I don't know anyone that can miss that much work and expect to be promoted to a much bigger job with much greater responsibility. I don't think it's fair. Didn't you make your choice?

NNAMDIDelegate Cardin?

CARDINSo it's a, you know, it's a fair question. And let me just start by saying that I have a greater than 90 percent attendance record, both in committee and in general floor votes over my 12-year career. And this year alone I cast over 2,700 votes during the legislative session. And I did make 100 percent of my subcommittee meetings, which is where do the debates, which is we hear all the testimony, which is where we mark up the bills and vote on all the amendments.

CARDINI did miss 119 votes in committee. They were nearly all unanimous. I checked with my chair in advance. She knew that I was dealing with what was supposed to be a private issue, a rocky first trimester of pregnancy for my wife, and a young daughter, and making sure that medical issues were being handled appropriately.

CARDINAll I can tell you is that I am confident I got 100 percent of the work done during the days. I didn't miss any days in Annapolis. It was -- it was late night votes. And then I got home and had a priority, not only of making sure the work was done and that the votes were set and no vote was impacted -- they were nearly all unanimous -- by my absence, and then I went home to take care of family.

CARDINAs a working parent, you understand that we all have to balance family and work. I think I did that. And I wouldn't change the fact that my family's health is a priority for me.

SHERWOODWhat…

NNAMDIGo ahead, Tom.

SHERWOODI don't know much about your family. You have one child and your wife were -- was -- what is your family situation?

CARDINMy wife is -- I hope you wish me best of luck and congratulations. My wife is due in August. And I have one daughter.

SHERWOODOkay. The only thing I'll tell people about babies -- but you know this if you have one daughter -- is that they leak at both ends. That's the only thing you have to know about babies.

NNAMDIMary, does that answer your concern?

MARYNo. It really doesn't because I've had to make important choices, but they've had consequences.

NNAMDIAnd so you are saying the same thing that the delegate's opponent, Brian Frosh, is saying, that when you haven't showed up as much you should have for the job that you have you shouldn't be asking for a promotion?

NNAMDIThat's exactly what I'm saying.

CARDINSure. And what I'd say, Kojo, is that while I have tremendous respect for my opponents and they're both good legislators, I consider myself -- I have the most successful legislative session of my career, passing things like reduction of cyber harassment, Briana's Law, which makes teenagers into lifesavers overnight, patent troll, going after patent trolls that are hurting our small businesses, this was -- it was by far my most successful session.

CARDINBut, you know, the job of the A.G. is different than that of a legislator. The A.G. is there to protect the citizens of the State of Maryland and make sure that all the laws are being enforced and they're Constitutional.

NNAMDIBut it is also a fulltime job that will require a great deal…

CARDINSure.

NNAMDI…of time and attention. You're obviously a caring husband and parent. What happens if during the course of this term as attorney general you are faced with challenging domestic circumstances once more?

CARDINWell, you know, I think that -- by the way, my -- the issue of pregnancy is -- God-willing, my wife and I have determined that we want a family of four, but be that as it may, of course there's always going to be challenges that you have to face. I will say, again, I believe I did 100 percent of the work. I was in Annapolis every day of the 90-day session, working. I mean, to suggest that I was not there at work or that I missed 75 percent of the work is disingenuous at best. It's intellectually dishonest.

SHERWOODWell, what do you think you missed? I mean, you said overall you did a good job. But is it okay then for members of the legislature not to make all of these votes…

CARDINNo.

SHERWOOD…these votes are -- I mean, if you didn't go because it was unanimous, couldn't just everybody, just except for the bare quorum show up and then you don't -- none of you have to be there. It can be a part-time job.

CARDINSo -- and I'm not interested in throwing anybody under the bus. There are members of the general assembly who are -- have been absent for sickness for entire sessions. There have been people who have been absent because of deaths in the family for entire -- when I say entire sessions, I mean, for nearly the entire 90-day session because of a sick relative or a death in the family.

CARDINI -- when I say that I handled this in a way -- when you tell your superiors that you are required to deal with medical issues and you say, "Can we make sure that I am not missing anything of great importance," and every -- all but a few votes were unanimous in the committee, and if there were any issues in my committee, certainly my presence would have been there for those votes.

CARDINThese are again, late -- when you're talking about scheduling all these matters, if you look at my first 11 years in the general assembly, my voting attendance, as well as my voting record, was nearly perfect.

NNAMDIOkay. We do have to move on.

CARDINSure.

NNAMDIThe job you're running for is the top legal job in the state. It was more than a few months ago that Maryland was responding to a shopping mall shooting in Columbia, last weekend the father of one of those shooting victims in Isla Vista, Ca., had very tough words for politicians he felt were responsible for the country's status quo on gun laws. What do you think needs to be done at the state level in places like Maryland to break the cycle of mass shootings?

CARDINIt's a great question. And what was amazing to me is that everyone wants to focus on what I think are not the main issues of this race. One of them -- and the priority for me -- and I've said this in everywhere -- everywhere I go, all around state, is that reduction of violent crime has got to be the number one priority for the office of attorney general. And how do we do that? How is the office directly related?

CARDINNumber one, reduction of gang violence. In Baltimore City we see lots of areas where crime is now moving onto the internet. And gang violence is actually happening, online gang recruitment is now happening tremendously, through technology. And the attorney general's office does primary jurisdiction and brings together cooperation of federal authorities and local authorities and local state's attorneys and state police to deal with this gang violence.

CARDINThe other thing that needs to happen…

SHERWOODExcuse me, but is that -- is the attorney general's office not doing this now?

CARDINNo. The attorney general is doing it. And needs to continue doing it. And there needs to be a continued focus or actually a more important focus on the movement of these violent crimes, using technology and using -- and I'll give you the examples that I use as cyber harassment, which turns into cyberbullying, which turns into people getting hurt. And it's happening more and more among our young people.

SHERWOODSo the attorney general's office is going to monitor this more or…

CARDINAbsolutely.

SHERWOOD…or bring more…

CARDINWell, what we need to do is convene a task force on cybersecurity and enforcement of cybersecurity laws.

SHERWOODBut can I say -- a general question here.

CARDINSure.

SHERWOODYou're not as well -- you're from the Baltimore area. So you're not as well known in the metropolitan Washington area, Montgomery and Prince George's County, where they've only heard, unfortunately for you, some of the things we just started talking about, your absenteeism rate. The Washington Post endorsed Brian Frosh on May the 8th, calling him the most admired, intelligent, civil and hard-working public official on environment, gun safety, all these matter of things.

SHERWOODAnd then it turns to you, says something nice about Braveboy, but then says you, Jon Cardin, "a lackluster lawmaker with a famous name, that who without the serendipity of his name would not even be partially considered for this job of attorney general." And you are the nephew of Senator Ben Cardin. And so with an election where there are not many people even aware there's an election on June 24th and a famous, famous name like Cardin, and the great respect the senator has, the suggestion is you are riding the coattails of a name into an office that you have not earned.

CARDINYou know, it's not the first time I've heard that. And I say that with a little bit of sarcasm. First of all, I have tremendous appreciation and respect for my uncle, who's spent his entire 50-year career in public service, has done tremendous things for not only the state, but as an advisor and a consultant to me, in teaching me how to utilize my work in the general assembly to improve the quality of life for the citizens for the State of Maryland. But let…

SHERWOODWhat does he -- what does he say about your absenteeism? I haven't asked him. If I saw him, I would have asked him.

CARDINWell, he understands. I mean, first of all, we obviously see each other quite a bit. And he understood and this, as the private matter that it was, that when you have to make tough decisions. And…

SHERWOODAs he endorsed you for this?

CARDINYes, he has.

SHERWOODOkay.

CARDINSo when we talk about guns -- let's talk about guns for one minute because that was one of the things that both of you brought up. I was a big -- a sponsor and a supporter of the gun control legislation from last year. But what we are not discussing and what's amazing to me, as we go through this debate, is that nobody's discussing the fact that we have a gaping loophole that I have tried to close over the last year, that has allowed 364 guns to be released to people who…

NNAMDIBackground checks.

CARDIN…who did not get their background checks completed. Because of that loophole, two of them have already been used -- according to the state police, two of them have already been used in the commission of a violent felonies. And the fact of the matter is, is that it's an easy loophole to close. And let me tell you something, as attorney general, we can do it through our office is the legislature is not willing to focus on it.

CARDINAnd this shouldn't be a political theater. This shouldn't be about politics and about who should get credit for what. It's about safety of our children, safety of our families. And that's something that needs to happen. In addition, having tremendous respect for my opponents, I have led the fight, with passion and vision, for safety of families over the last number of years, a decade.

CARDINI fought against -- I fought against perpetuation of cybercrimes. Things like cyberbullying and revenge porn, which have become major areas of my platform. And I've made understanding the perils and the promise of technology an important part of our, not only platform, but of making Maryland safe.

NNAMDIIn a recent debate, Brian Frosh pointed out that you opposed the Dream Act, which in 2012, allowed children of undocumented immigrants to attend public universities at in-state tuition rates. How would you describe the position you chose and the reasons you chose it?

CARDINI will enthusiastically enforce the Dream Act. At the time that the Dream Act came up there was a choice the legislature had to make whether to fund the Dream Act or fund programs that would help severe people -- children with severe mental and developmental disabilities. That money was posed to us. I decided to vote with the -- for the most vulnerable communities among us.

CARDINAnd I knew that there were going to be political consequences to that. And I have stood strong. Listen to my speech on the floor of the House of Delegates from that debate. I believe that every single person deserves to have an adequate education. I will enthusiastically support it, but I also believe that all of us need to show character through the kinds of people and programs that we support.

SHERWOODCan we -- can I ask about that? Because I did read about this. And it's an interview did with a Dan Formanski (sp?) -- is that his name?

CARDINOkay.

SHERWOODAll right. The governor took $6 million out of the Developmental Disabilities Administration. I don't know how much money that agency gets overall. And you didn't -- you didn't like that. So is that enough to oppose the Dream Act for thousands of children to be able to go to school? I mean, over $6 million? What is the state budget for Maryland?

CARDINSo the budget for the Dream Act was $6 million.

SHERWOODNo. I mean the state budget for Maryland.

CARDINThe state budget for Maryland is…

SHERWOODI mean billions.

CARDINYeah, it's -- well, it depends on…

SHERWOODWell, just overall. Just…

CARDINThirty billion dollars.

SHERWOODThirty billion dollars. This is a $6 million -- I know legislators have to make choices, but I was -- actually I was stunned when I read this…

CARDINSure.

SHERWOOD…because, again, people in this region don't really know you.

NNAMDIFor people who don't understand, you suggested that the governor was making a choice between helping people with disabilities and helping the children of undocumented immigrants. Did you feel that that was the choice that he was making?

CARDINI thought it was very conspicuous that the exact, the exact amount of money that was being put into the budget for the Dream Act was the exact amount of money that was being withdrawn from the Developmental Disability Administration. And this is an area of government that is vastly underfunded. We are talking about the most, most vulnerable among us. These are children who can't even eat by themselves, perhaps, because of the disabilities. Can't even walk or talk. And they need a tremendous amount.

CARDINWe have a -- a tremendous amount of money -- we have a 12,000-person wait list for services from the DDA. And this is where character is demonstrated. I put my vote on the line and made it very clear that I would support the Dream Act if we reinstated that money.

SHERWOODThey took -- how much money does the Disabilities Administration get each year?

CARDINOh, they get somewhere in the neighborhood of $25 million.

SHERWOODTwenty-five million dollars. And what -- and you do -- so you say you support the reasons for the Dream Act.

CARDINI don't have a -- in fact I was asked by…

SHERWOODDid you vote for it?

CARDINYes. Well, no. I did not vote for it in the general assembly…

NNAMDIBecause of the above stated reason.

SHERWOODWhat about -- isn't there -- wasn't there a referendum on it also?

CARDINRight. There was a referendum. In fact, the opponents -- the people in favor of the petition to go against the Dream Act came to me and asked me to be their poster child. I said absolutely not.

SHERWOODHow did you vote in the referendum?

CARDINI voted to keep the Dream Act as state law.

NNAMDIHere…

CARDINAnd that was a private vote, but I, you know, I was very clear that this is not about the policy, this is about putting myself out there to try and defend the people I think need to be defended. And I think that that…

SHERWOODYou would have -- but you would have ended -- you would have ended the effort for the Dream Act to save the $6 million for the Disabilities Administration? You would -- if that were the choice?

CARDINIf the governor came to me and said we need your vote and I'll reinstate that money, absolutely I would have voted for the Dream Act.

NNAMDIHere is Karla, in Silver Spring, Md. Karla, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

KARLAHello. Could you tell me your differences between you and the other gentleman running for attorney general of Maryland?

CARDINSure.

NNAMDIGo ahead.

SHERWOOD(unintelligible).

CARDINSo I think you're referring to Senator Frosh…

NNAMDIBecause Brian Frosh because …

CARDINYou know, I believe, that as a leader, in using technology to help make families safe. In using technology to help provide civil rights for every individual in the State of Maryland. I'll give you two examples there. I have led the fight in dealing with what I would call the new challenges, the new pressures, the new threats facing our families.

CARDINAnd I believe that that is where the attorney general's office needs to go in staying two steps ahead of those new threats. In terms of civil rights, I have led the fight to provide safe and fair elections and reduce voter ID schemes, taking away people's right to vote.

NNAMDIThere's also the question of judgment. The gentleman you're seeking to replace, Doug Gansler, got into a bit of hot water for photographs taken of him at a party that his son's friends were giving, at which there seems to be alcohol. Back in August of 2009, you apologized to the police commissioner for using Baltimore officers in a staged marriage proposal involving on-duty Marine and helicopter officers.

NNAMDIYou said you simply wanted to impress your fiance. You wanted to surprise her, to give her the best time possible, but you apologized. It was clearly a mistake in judgment. What will you say to people who say, "How do we know that there won't be future slips in judgment when you become attorney general?"

CARDINWell, I mean, I believe that character is not not making mistakes, it's about how you react to them. I -- it was misjudgment. I apologized. Not a misjudgment in asking my wife to marry me, but in…

NNAMDIIn case she's listening.

CARDIN…doing it the way that -- exactly -- in doing the way I did it. I apologized to the police, to the citizens of the city of Baltimore. I reimbursed them for any costs and I gave a substantial contribution to the Police Foundation in a demonstration of contrition. And I vowed to become a better person and a better legislator from it all. And I think that I have actually done that. And it would be, I mean…

SHERWOODWell, I've asked people…

NNAMDITom, we've only got a minute or two.

SHERWOODOkay. Well, very quickly, in 2009, this was an incident on a boat. You took a friend's boat and you engaged police resources, including a helicopter, to come to suggest that you -- about your girlfriend, at the time, was about to be arrested and then you got down on one knee which is classy.

CARDINThat's the story, but that's…

SHERWOODThat's not true.

CARDINNo. It's good enough. We'll go with that.

SHERWOODIs the -- because people say you have not, in fact, reimbursed for all those costs. And as much as you want to be attorney general, I've just looked at this and people said, not only was it bad judgment -- which you've apologized for -- but it was also a mean trick. It goes far beyond slapping wedding cake in your -- in your bride's face.

SHERWOODBut did you, in fact, pay for all -- the helicopter cost a couple thousand dollars an hour to live, I mean -- and all these officers could have been doing all the crime fighting you talk about, cybercrime, gun safety, violent crime, revenge porn. They could have been working on police stuff instead of…

CARDINSure.

SHERWOOD…helping you get your proposal done.

CARDINSo I asked the police to please give -- do an accounting and whatever the cost was is what we paid them. I will say that we were not -- I have taken, I have taken responsibility…

SHERWOODIf there's any -- if there's any other bill you'd pay it.

CARDINYes. If there's any other bill I would pay it. I've taken responsibility for everything that was done. It was -- and I'll leave it at that. I mean, the fact is that we didn't engage -- the helicopter was there. I didn't…

SHERWOODOkay.

CARDINI don't think that it was ever in any part of it, but that's neither here nor there.1

NNAMDIFinally, why should you be the next attorney general for State of Maryland?

CARDINSure. I am -- I have been a lifelong resident of Maryland. I have spent my winters in Deep Creek Lake, my summers in Ocean City. I grew up in Baltimore and met my wife right here in Bethesda. And -- or right outside, right in Bethesda, right around the corner from here. And I love this state. I want to make this state the best it can be. I want to make it as safe as it can be.

CARDINI want to focus on the civil rights of every citizen in the State of Maryland, focus on consumer protection, focus on making sure that we provide a safe environment, clean water, clean air. I think I have the record that demonstrates that. And I will work with passion, conviction and vision to solve problems and keep Marylanders safe.

NNAMDIJon Cardin, he's a Democratic candidate for attorney general of the State of Maryland. He's currently a member of the Maryland House of Delegates, whose district includes parts of Baltimore County. Thank you very much for joining us. Good luck to you.

CARDINThank you guys, very much.

NNAMDITom Sherwood is our resident analyst. He's a reporter at NBC 4 and a columnist for the Current Newspaper. He's not a columnist for all newspapers that are current. He's a columnist for the newspaper that is named the Current.

SHERWOODI'm a columnist for the one that counts in this city.

NNAMDIAnd so we now can get back to D.C. matters. The council member for Ward 7, Yvette Alexander. There was speculation that she was going to make an at-large run for the Council this year. She has said no, she's not doing that. She's going to run to retain her seat next year. What happened? Did Yvette…

SHERWOODNo. Let me say this, the day that that was said by her, that she was going to look -- that somebody who writes a column for the Current Newspapers…

NNAMDISomebody who shall remain nameless.

SHERWOOD…said that is not going to happen. That was never a possibility. It wasn't even a figment of the imagination. It was a comment. And that's all it was and that's all it is.

NNAMDIJoining us in studio now is Ed Lazere. He is the executive director of the D.C. Fiscal Policy Institute. Ed Lazere, thank you so much for joining us.

MR. ED LAZEREHey, Kojo. Nice to you.

NNAMDIIf you have questions or comments for Ed Lazere, give us a call at 800-433-8850. We're going to be discussing the budget and the tax cuts, but I do have to say that same council member, Yvette Alexander, in her committee, killed the plan, the $22 to $23.5 million plan that the mayor had dedicated to replacing the United Medical Center, the east-of-the-river hospital that serves Wards 7 amenities, renovated pools, tennis courts, Nanny Ellenborough's (sp?) house...

SHERWOODThings they need right now.

NNAMDICalling people to say earmarks are coming back to the council. Are earmarks coming back?

SHERWOODWell, I think that was -- it is kind of a brush against earmarks, but you know, the larger story on this is that Mayor Gray is truly a lame duck mayor. I mean, his hospital, that house (word?) is not going to move forward.

NNAMDIThat is largest story on this...

SHERWOODSome of the street car money, you can maybe get into that, but whether it's going to hurt the street car development or not, money was taken from that, any number of things. The mayor is being pushed to the sidelines. His top aides are leaving to go to other jobs 'cause they have to work so this is one of the consequences of what the council did by creating an April 1 primary. It has really hamstrung the mayor's ability to get things done.

NNAMDIWe're gonna discuss that larger issue also, but is this creeping earmarks coming back to the council, Ed Lazere?

LAZEREYou know, I'm pretty confident that it won't. I think that earmarks have a bad reputation. I think what Ms. Alexander did, did raise enough concern and ire that it was a short-lived thing. I think...

SHERWOOD'Cause if one gets away with it, everyone will do it.

LAZEREThat's right. I mean, it's a practice that everybody knows once you start the ball rolling...

NNAMDIIt'll create a culture.

LAZEREYeah, that's right.

NNAMDIThe D.C. council...

LAZEREMichael Brown will miss out.

NNAMDIThe D.C. council passed a budget this week that reshaped considerably the one Mayor Gray wanted to pursue. A big part of those changes involve taxes. The council voted for the largest income tax the city has seen in 50 years.

SHERWOODThe largest income tax cut.

NNAMDIThe largest income tax cut the city has seen in 50 years.

SHERWOODKey word.

LAZEREPretty important.

NNAMDIEverybody, besides Donald Trump, will be getting a tax cut. Chairman Phil Mendelson said, the philosophy behind this plan is about making the city more affordable. How do you see it?

LAZEREOh, absolutely. Yeah, you know, Kojo, I served on the commission with Mayor Williams...

NNAMDIYes, I was about to say that.

LAZERE...that came up with the recommendations.

NNAMDIThe D.C. tax revision commission.

LAZEREYes. So I and my organization, the Fiscal Policy Institute, were very excited by the package that came out this week. It's going to cut income taxes for nearly everyone in the District, but mostly, largest amounts for moderate income residents, the ones who really...

SHERWOOD40 to $60,000.

LAZEREYeah, those are the folks who were struggling to make ends meet. So for a single mom making 25,000, it's $600 in tax cuts. For a family of four making 50,000, it's over $1,000. And that's real money, you know, to buy school uniforms or pay for music lessons to pay the rent. It's going to make a real difference for people who are always struggling to make ends meet every day.

NNAMDIIf you're a resident of the District and you oppose these tax cuts, give us a call, 800-433-8850.

SHERWOODWell, you know, we do have the yoga gym folks in something of a tizzy, but we'll...

NNAMDIYes, because the people who are now -- people who go to gyms will now have to pay a tax that's kind of...

SHERWOODA sales tax.

NNAMDI...a sales tax. But those people will say, look, here we are trying to make ourselves healthy so that we don’t cost you money so that we don't cost the tax payers money down the road in healthcare costs and you want to tax us for trying to get healthy.

LAZEREYeah, that's what happens whenever something is not taxed and you talk about taxing it, the reality is we tax most things. We just -- there are a few things we don't, including health club memberships. And so when the commission said and learned that the best tax policy is to broaden your sales tax to cover everything, that means some things are going to feel like you're being targeted.

LAZEREThe reality is, right now, if you go and buy a hammer or a book or a computer or a basketball, those are all good things and you pay the sales tax. So it's not that we're trying to pick winners or loser with our sales tax, it's just that we should have a broad base and tax everything.

SHERWOODI interviewed Mayor Williams yesterday for my story about this and he said, when I brought up that the people complain about the yoga tax and the gym membership tax, he said, well, you know, if I go to a restaurant in town and I order the healthy meal, the salad and I eat well, I still have to pay the 10 percent restaurant tax. He said, this is an effort to broaden the base as widely as possible and then allow to use the money to help the people who are most necessary.

LAZEREThat's right. And I think the reality is most of us don't even really notice when we pay the sales tax. That's sort of the point. I mean, you know, when you go out for a drink or...

SHERWOODWell, I've noticed when I paid the 10 percent sales tax in a restaurant, but I don't...

LAZEREYou do? But does it stop you from going out though?

SHERWOODWell, I try to get someone else to pick up the check.

LAZEREWell, there you go.

NNAMDIWe got a tweet from Matt who says ask about the $200,000 earmarked grant for H Street/Main Street that is awarded without competition and no performance requirements.

LAZEREI'm not familiar with that one, Kojo.

NNAMDINor am I. It's my under...

LAZEREBut in general, earmarks are, you know, if we're going to award public money to any purpose, it really should go through...

SHERWOODBut there are grants for great streets programs, but it's all a process.

NNAMDIIt's my understanding that the D.C. Fiscal Policy Institute was opposed to changes to estate taxes, but supported the overall compromises. What were your misgivings and why did you feel that the tax commissions plan and Phil Mendelson's plan were -- well, you've answered that part already -- were a good way forward for the city, but the estate tax.

LAZERERight. So I voted as a member of the tax commission for all of our recommendations, including the estate tax. And to be clear, what the council did and what the commission recommended was changing our estate tax so that rather than the current exemption where you don't pay any estate tax if your estate is worth less than a million, we're going to raise that all the way up to 5.25 million.

SHERWOODWhich is the federal level.

LAZEREWhich is to match the federal level. And the federal cuts, to be honest, have occurred because of a conservative sense that people don't like paying estate taxes or that that's some -- that's a death tax. When reality is the estate tax covers a very small number of estates and it's the one way that we're able to tax accumulated wealth. The reality is also that we heard research at the commission that very, very few people choose where to live or where to move to because of the estate tax.

LAZEREAnd the advice we got as a commission was we're not going to encourage more people to move here or stay here in significant numbers if we cut the estate tax. And that's why I opposed it as a member of the commission, but I supported it as part of an overall package.

NNAMDIFrom a philosophical perspective, what were the things you felt were the most important for the council to do to make the system more progressive?

LAZEREWell, I think the most important thing that the commission focused on, and I really thank Mayor Williams for allowing us to focus on it 'cause he sort of created a committee to look at the income tax within the tax commission, we found that a lot of the deductions that everyone is able to claim in the city's income tax, like the standard deduction and personal exemption, those sort of wonky terms, that our deductions are a lot smaller than in most states, than in the federal government.

LAZEREAnd that means that we're not exempting tax -- people from taxes the way that we should. And what we recommended is sort of a best practice, which is to match what the federal government does. A handful of states do that and now the District will as well and that means that families with low and moderate incomes, many of them won't pay any income tax, and for lots of other people, as I mentioned, they'll get a pretty significant tax break.

SHERWOODThe big picture here today is when the council, when the chairman, well, first of all, he should be maybe criticized for bringing the completed budget to make it public just before the vote. That was -- needs more time for that. I think you'd agree with that. But what was striking to me was that the federal city council, the Fiscal Policy Institute, which Ed represents and is an advocacy group for spending money on social services and other positive things like that, people worked pretty much together.

SHERWOODI mean, the council -- the rancor -- I know Mayor Barry kind of got upset with the chairman, but overall, this passed pretty well and people the city had made a fairly strong move. And Jack Evans said, even though he didn't like the yoga tax and the gym tax, he said, this city is doing very well and this is the very time you need to balance the playing field.

NNAMDIWell, Tommy Wells did not feel that way.

SHERWOODNo, (unintelligible)

LAZEREHe was concerned about street cars, but, you know...

NNAMDIHe made the argument that by cutting funding for streetcars, the council is exacerbating economic disparities, that the streetcar funding is about the city operating its own transit network and that these cuts will make it harder for poor residents to get around the District.

LAZEREYou know, I watched the debate and I think most of the council members who supported the tax cuts, diverting some of the money from the streetcars really thought we would get both, that this wasn't going to harm the streetcar project. It's been moving fairly slowly. It's been spending at a fairy low rate. This packed package is going to be implemented in over five years so there' plenty of time to adjust.

LAZEREIt's also the case that the formula for the streetcars that's currently in law that the council just changed really was going to set aside more money than was needed and, in fact, at one point, in the future would take money away potentially from things like education and public safety. The formula had to change at some point and I think Chairman Mendelson just did a masterful thing in changing it now and using some of the savings for this tax reform package that the commission had recommended.

SHERWOODI think advocates for the streetcar system would have liked it if the chairman, Phil Mendelson, had given a stronger, yes, I do support streetcars statement, which he didn't quite do. Mary Cheh, the chairman of the transportation committee noted that the DDOT, the transportation people have not spent money very well. I think she even used the word mismanagement and just even if they are managed well, they cannot spend all the money that was starting to poor into their office.

LAZEREI think that's right.

NNAMDIShe made it clear that she's still in support of the -- ultimately of the streetcar system. To what degree do you feel that investments in infrastructure like streetcars are necessary to improve the situation for poor and middle class people or to improve economic opportunity in the District?

LAZEREWell, for sure we need to make sure that people can get their children to school and childcare and then get to their jobs. I'm not sure that the streetcar is mostly about that. In fact, what a lot of people...

NNAMDIBut I remember when Metro was first introduced, the perception was that it was all about bringing people from the suburbs into the city, but look at how people now -- Metro rail, that is -- look at how many people in the city now use Metro Rail to get around.

LAZEREYeah, absolutely. I mean, I think streetcars, in many cases, are seen as an economic development as much as transportation, that it's a signal that this is where development should occur. This is where businesses should invest. And so what we've seen on H Street, for example, is just the thought of a streetcar coming, rolling up and down there has actually pushed a lot of gentrification.

LAZERESo I think streetcars will be good for the city, but I actually think the larger issue is will it make more and more of the city unaffordable and what can we do as we're planning those next streetcar lines to actually preserve affordable housing nearby so people can benefit from that transportation.

NNAMDILet me get a caller in. Here's Melvin in Washington D.C. Tom, don your headphones 'cause Melvin is on the air. Melvin, go ahead, please.

MELVINYes. Well, I'm overjoyed. I thought Councilman Mendelson did the right thing, cutting taxes, but I cannot see how we needed to spend so much money for these streetcars when development is going to naturally take place and especially in areas where it is slated to run. Developers are buying into those areas right now without a streetcar and I cannot see why we're going pour so much money into streetcars when the city has so many other critical needs.

NNAMDIAnd you don't think that streetcars can help to fill some of those critical needs?

MELVINAbsolutely not because wherever -- where I see development right now, this area of development because the people are there and they came before it even thought of streetcars. So those areas are doing quite well now and we did not need to spend that kind of money to attract developers and they're coming naturally.

NNAMDIWhat do you say, Ed Lazere?

LAZEREYeah, well, you know, I was actually in a conversation with Mayor Williams yesterday at an event where he and I were both and he talked about taking the X2 bus up and down H Street. And that's worked well for...

NNAMDI'Cause he lives over there at 3rd and H, yeah.

LAZERERight. And that's worked for a long time to move people to and fro and he, in fact, likes the fact that there's a real diversity of population and economics on the X2 and he thinks that's a great thing. And so I think the reality of what Melvin is saying is maybe true, that we may not need the streetcar as much as is planned and we'll just adjust as we go along.

NNAMDIIn that case, what, in your view, is shaping some of the economic disparities that we're seeing now in the District. Your organization reported last March that the D.C.'s economy's recovery from 2008 recession was very uneven and that a lot of people were left behind. What's driving that?

LAZEREWell, there's sort of a national trend that's sort of hyperfocused here in the District, which is that if you don't have a college degree, which, in fact, most people don’t, it's been really hard to recover from this recession. The unemployment rate has not fallen for people without a college degree since 2008 here in the city. Wages have actually fallen for those workers. Nationally we see that the recovery, even when it's bringing new jobs, it's tending to bring in low wage jobs.

LAZERESo there's -- we're not creating jobs that pay a lot of money, and yet because the District is such a popular place to live now, housing costs just continue to rise and rise and there's just this growing gap between what people are able to earn and what their housing costs.

SHERWOODAnd we do have to move people around. I think the big picture with street cars is that it's part of the city's effort, Harriet Tregoning did it some, actually started it, but trying to get streetcars, rapid bus, bike lanes, sidewalks, cars, all kind of working together because we have this projection for a huge growth in population and we have to be able to accommodate it.

SHERWOODEven right now in downtown Washington, it's gridlock in the evenings and that's not economically good. It's not environmentally good. There's just all kinds of problems if we don't move people better.

LAZERERight. So, you know, improving transportation is part of the solution and streetcars certainly may be part of that as well. But for the people who are being left behind in the city is a lot more than that.

NNAMDIHousing and homelessness. The city struggled with homelessness this past winter in epic ways. The number of homeless families overwhelmed the District's ability to shelter them. Those who found shelter at the former D.C. General site, it's fair to say, struggled with the living conditions and basic safety of that facility. What opportunity did you think the District had with its budget to rectify some of those issues.

LAZEREWell, it had a lot of opportunities and it took some of them. So one of the things that we're really happy about that's in the budget is some new funds for a new kind of way to prevent people from becoming homeless in the first place, to identify the families that are most at risk of becoming homeless, providing them a little bit of social services, perhaps a little bit of financial help, if they're behind on their rent, and in New York where this model has started, they found that it dramatically cuts the number of people who come into shelter.

LAZEREAnd I think at the end, the biggest thing that we need is just a supply of affordable housing because we know that family can get out of shelter through something known as Rapid Rehousing, which is sort of a short term housing assistance program with services, but they're sort of told when you move into that housing you need to be able to afford it within as little as four months or maybe a year or so.

LAZEREAnd finding an apartment that's under $1,000, which is what most families are looking for, as you can imagine, is really almost impossible in this city.

NNAMDIAre there tools that the mayor, the council, can use to make sure, A, that the stock of affordable housing is not farther reduced or better yet, to increase the stock of what we consider affordable housing, housing that poor and low and middle class families can afford?

LAZEREI mean, the good news is we have the tools so we have something known as the Housing Trust Fund, which gives nonprofit and other developers a little bit of money to help them build housing that's low cost. We have programs to help people buy their first home. We have a rent assistance program that helps people pay the rent in a private market apartment. Those are all great things we have, emergency rental assistance. The real question is do we spend enough.

LAZEREWe spend $500 million in public safety right now and about $150 million on housing. And the question is, you know, will the new mayor and the new council start thinking that we really have to adjust that equation and invest a lot more in affordable housing just to keep up with what we're losing every year.

SHERWOODIt's not cold now. A lot of people forget and don't talk about D.C. General where more than 500 families were -- the mayor said we're going to do something. We're going to move 500 families in 100 days and that would be up in the middle of July. Do you have any sense that that's actually getting any traction?

LAZEREWell, we were really happy to see that 'cause it was sort of tragic during the winter to see so many families come into shelter and the initial reaction from the Gray administration was that we should try to just divert as many people as possible, when clearly these were families who had no other place to go. The city has very strict screening to get into shelters. Both residency requirements and a long list of questions to find out whether you have any other place that you can go, even for a short amount of time.

LAZEREAnd these were families who had no other options. So they announced a plan in April to move families out really quickly. It's a ship that is not easy to turn around really quickly. They are making some progress. They aren't on target to move 500 families out. We think they need to do more. Partly that's more staff to just identify housing units that are out there. Part of that is more staff to identify which families should be in what kind of program.

LAZEREAnd part of it is more money for housing because we just need to find those units.

SHERWOODCan I ask a politics question on the politics hour?

NNAMDII was going to ask you a politics question. But go ahead.

SHERWOODVery quickly, Elissa Silverman, has she left the Fiscal Policy Institute again?

NNAMDIWho is Elissa Silverman anyway?

LAZEREOh, come on.

SHERWOODWell, she was -- no.

NNAMDIIs she an employee of the D.C. Fiscal Policy Institute?

SHERWOODShe was. Has she left yet?

NNAMDIOr a candidate?

LAZEREElissa's last day, sadly, was April 11, so...

SHERWOODOh, wow. She's -- oh, wow.

LAZEREShe's been gone for almost six weeks.

SHERWOODHas she -- Elissa is running for the large council seat...

NNAMDII know.

SHERWOOD...that David Catania has given up in his run for mayor. Has she announced officially? I mean, or is she preparing?

LAZEREShe -- it's certainly gotten out in the news that she is planning to run for the at-large seat.

NNAMDIThe politics question I was going to ask you, and Ed Lazere, feel free to respond. We have a little more than a minute left is that it's said that over the weekend, the recommendations of the D.C. tax revision commission were cranked up by Chairman Phil Mendelson. One gets the impression that because Mayor Gray is a lame duck, there are politicians who wanted to do things all along, who now see an opportunity to do them during the course of the next eight or night months.

SHERWOODWell, you know, Mayor Gray only took some of the recommendations of the commission that he created and so that's not unusual. And Phil Mendelson looked at them and I have to say, the mayor and maybe Ed was with him, lobbied all the council members and said, look, this is 18 months or real work. We've got a real chance here. Let's do it. So they went and talked to the council members and apparently they persuaded them.

LAZERENo, I think that's fair. My sense is that a lot of council members, not just Chairman Mendelson, were eager to see the tax commission recommendations fully incorporated, David Grosso being one of them. And they were sort of looking for a way, within this budget process, to do more. They were a little disappointed at what they saw in Mayor Gray's budget.

NNAMDIEd Lazere is the executive director of the D.C. Fiscal Policy Institute. Good to see you. Thank you for joining us.

LAZEREGreat to see you.

NNAMDITom Sherwood is our resident analyst. He's a reporter at NBC 4 and a columnist for The Current Newspapers.

SHERWOODHave a good weekend.

NNAMDIYou, too.

SHERWOODI'll be doing some biking.

NNAMDIHave fun. I hope to see you out there. Be careful out there. Stop at stop signs. Thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.