MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, a fictional take on crime and racial tensions in a suburban community. Author Rachel Louise Snyder discusses her new novel, "What We've Lost Is Nothing." But first, the political crisis in the Ukraine. Ukraine's embattled President Viktor Yanukovych disappeared on Saturday, fleeing the capital of Kiev and going into hiding.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIAnd for much of this weekend, nobody knew exactly who was in charge in this strategically important nation. After months of protests, escalating street violence and increasingly erratic strong fisted rule by Yanukovych, Ukraine's Parliament has moved to shore up power by naming an interim government, and this morning, issuing an arrest warrant for the former President. But the crisis has exposed deep cultural and regional divisions within the country, and threatens to destabilize the region at the fault line between Europe and Russia.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIJoining us to discuss this is Keith Darden. He is a Professor in the School of International Service at American University, and author of the forthcoming book, "Resisting Occupation in Eurasia." Keith Darden, thank you for joining us.

MR. KEITH DARDENThank you, Kojo. It's good to be here.

NNAMDIAnd joining us by phone from Boston is Oxana Shevel, Professor of Political Science at Tufts University. She is the author of "Migration, Refugee Policy, and State Building in Postcommunist Europe." Oxana Shevel, thank you for joining us.

MS. OXANA SHEVELThank you for inviting me.

NNAMDIIf you'd like to join the conversation, give us a call at 800-433-8850. If you have questions or comments about what's taking place in Ukraine, you can also shoot us an email to kojo@wamu.org or send us a tweet @kojoshow. Keith Darden, the protest movement in Ukraine was set off three months ago when Viktor Yanukovych backed out of a trade deal with the European Union and instead, enlisted the aid of Russia to help address a major economic crisis.

NNAMDIBut there were deeper grievances at play that had built up over the course of four years. Why was Yanukovych so unpopular with a large portion of the population?

DARDENThere are several reasons for Yanukovych's lack of popularity. One is that the general economic situation in Ukraine was getting quite dismal, in part because Yanukovych was controlling so many of the most lucrative assets in the country through himself and through his son. And they were seizing assets, more or less, anything that was profitable in the country, they were trying to get their hands on. They and their cronies in the Party of Regions. And that left the country in a condition where nobody wanted to invest, because if you reaped a profit, it was gonna be taken away.

DARDENAnd the economy was going into a steady decline. And so, over the period of time in which Yanukovych has been in power, Ukraine has done considerably worse. And so there was a lot of resistance to him, from the get go, even aside from this Europe agreement.

NNAMDIOxana, I said a large portion of Ukraine, not necessarily majority, because it's clear that this is a country deeply divided along regional and ethnic lines. You've written that any elected leader in Ukraine will almost, by definition, face a huge opposition, because of the divisions that have always existed in the country. Can you explain?

SHEVELYes. As you said, Ukraine is a, you know, culturally divided country that has a substantial part of the population that's primarily in the center and west of the country, that is more oriented towards Europe, and (unintelligible) Ukrainian culture agenda. And on the other hand, you have a more Russian speaking population in the south and east of the country that is more oriented towards Russia. And unfortunately, in Ukraine, precisely (unintelligible) depose the political elite that's been running the country for 20 years has almost, without exception, have been corrupt.

SHEVELAnd badly managed the economy, as Keith was saying. Also, there have been a lot of, you know, just general dissatisfaction with the level of corruption. It was very easy for political elites to play onto this culture of (unintelligible) and say look, you know, when the election comes about, if you don't vote for me, the other guy is equally bad corrupt, but he is also culturally going to pursue the agenda that goes against your beliefs. And this was why it was easy, I think, for politicians to manipulate the election in defense over this culture, kind of given divide gave a natural base to the opposition that that would say.

SHEVELAnd I just wanted to, maybe, just add to what Keith said about (unintelligible) Yanukovych's dissatisfaction, I think it is precisely this lawlessness that essentially came to Ukraine (unintelligible) even though (unintelligible) corrupt as well. The fact that businesses were taken, you know, from people, that there was no recourse through the courts because the courts are completely controlled by, again, Presidential cronies.

SHEVELSo people live without -- there was no way to have their grievances heard through the established institutional channels, and I think that's an important additional reason for deep dissatisfaction with President Yanukovych's rule, including in East. It's not that he's very popular there.

SHEVELThe polls show that if they let free elections, that was before the latest violence, he would get about 20/25 percent of support. So even people who don't like him there, but they feel that that the opposition is equally corrupt and also culturally more distant. So, in a way, you know, it was easier for him to keep (unintelligible) base there.

NNAMDIIn case you're just joining us, we're discussing Ukraine's political crisis, and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. Should Washington provide assistance to this provisional government? Does it matter that a Democratically elected leader has been deposed? Would you call this a coup? 800-433-8850. You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Keith Darden, Russia has routinely referred to the protestors on the Maidan, as fascists, language that is probably intended to undermine their credibility and the legitimacy of their grievances.

NNAMDIBut, there is a sizeable far right contingent in this protest movement, some of whom have actually embraced the term fascist. Who are the protestors and now the people taking over in Kiev?

DARDENSo, the protestors are a broad mix of people. It's absolutely correct -- there is a significant component of the protest movement that is from the far right, and that could accurately be described as fascist. In particular, the group called Pravi Sector, or Right Sector. It's a coalition of far right groups, and they've been some of the most militant and their highly organized on the Maidan. That is in the central square of Kiev.

DARDENBut surveys have been done among the protestors that show that the vast majority are primarily there because they're concerned about corruption, dissatisfied with Yanukovych's rule, precisely the things that Oxana was just talking about. The idea of lawlessness, within the country, has raised a lot of people and led them to go out and protest entirely on their own. But it's quite true that the far right has used this movement as a way to advance their own agenda, an agenda which they could never have advanced through the ballot box, cause they simply lack popular support within the country as a whole.

NNAMDIAnd Oxana, there are some who fear that because the far right has gained a foothold in this movement that that foothold could become leadership. Do you care to comment?

SHEVELYes, I think the far right definitely shouldn't be underestimated, its importance, and, you know, potentially could still create trouble in Ukraine. On the other hand, given again, if we look at the recent polls the popularity of the far right parties, such as Svoboda, which (unintelligible) the Right Sector, the (unintelligible) of what is also a far right political party, is in the vicinity of (unintelligible) . So, in a way, if Ukraine has free elections, these far right groups are not going to get anything resembling a majority, or even, you know, like a third of the seats in the Parliament.

SHEVELIn fact, again, depending how you analyze these polls, potentially, a coalition could be formed, even without the far right by sort of the more moderate (unintelligible) parties. I'm not sure that that would happen. I think the far right will play a role in the government, you know, in the appointments. They may support a party in particular, but I personally would say that we shouldn't neither underestimate, but not overestimate the importance of the (unintelligible) given how little support the far right agenda had in Ukraine.

SHEVELSo the (unintelligible) that comes from Russia, that there are fascists on the square, and all the protestors are, you know, Nazis and so forth, that's just simply not true.

NNAMDIOxana Shevel is a Professor of Political Science at Tufts University. She's the author of "Migration Refugee Policy and State Building in Postcommunist Europe." She joins us, by phone, from Boston. Joining us in our Washington studio is Keith Darden. He is a Professor in the School of International Service at American University, and author of the forthcoming book, "Resisting Occupation in Eurasia." Keith, today, the interim Interior Minister, Arsen Avakhov, issued an arrest warrant for the former President, accusing him of mass killing of civilian protestors.

NNAMDIOn this morning's NPR newscast, they led with that news. Then they transitioned to news about Egypt's appointed President, announcing the resignation of all appointed ministers. And it was a little hard not to see a parallel between Ukraine and Egypt. A popular protest movement that deposed a Democratically elected President, a protest movement filled with pro-western liberals, but also factions that are, well, much less palatable. What do you think?

DARDENI think you're dead on there, Kojo. I think there are a lot of parallels. In fact, if Ukraine were a country in the Middle East, we'd probably be referring the Slavic street, rather than the Maidan. And I think part of the difficulty is that Ukraine shares with these Middle Eastern societies, the politicization of the judiciary, where holding power means controlling the law, means writing the Constitution and generally means the persecution of your political enemies rather than any notion of rule of law and justice that we think is necessary for Ukraine to move forward. And so I think these are quite legitimate and quite disturbing parallels between the two cases.

NNAMDISame question to you, Oxana.

SHEVELYes, I think the parallels are there. On the other hand, I would say that Ukraine now has a chance to actually do things differently, because essentially, what people have been demanding, in Ukrainians, there's a (unintelligible) I'm not sure. Maybe Keith could help me with the English. Like, a reboot of the system, something like that. And essentially, what people are talking about, that we should stop, you know, electing the same old group of cronies of the elites that act exactly in the (unintelligible) that you just described.

SHEVELYou know, appointing their own cronies to the judiciary, and essentially controlling the political process to their own enrichment. And then we see another side of dissatisfaction and another round of street protests that might, you know, replace (unintelligible) . So what we see now in Ukraine, what people have been demanding, and in fact, I think many now feel that the new leaders, at least, you know, the ones that have been to Parliament so far, are not hearing these demands, is that new forces, new blood should come from, to the government from the civil society.

SHEVEL(unintelligible) the same old elite being shuffled to new positions, so in a way, it hasn't been announced yet, but the hope, and I think that would come to pass, there will be also new Parliamentary elections, not just presidential elections in Ukraine before too long, that would allow these new groups that emerge as part of the protest. The civil society activists, various respectable groups, such as (unintelligible) and others, to essentially bring new blood to the government, and hopefully have greater transparency that people are demanding now in Ukraine.

SHEVELI would say in a way that hadn't been demanded. And more important to the people haven't had a chance to make reality is all of time so Ukraine and exist as independent state. And then maybe these parallels with the Middle East and elsewhere will become less relevant.

NNAMDIOn to the telephones. Here is Kelly in Arlington, Virginia. Kelly, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

KELLYHi Kojo. Thanks for having me on. You know, I have a comment, and maybe a question. I think that the things that are happening in the Ukraine right now should maybe be viewed in a larger context, part of a larger goal that the United States has. And that is to isolate Russia by peeling away these former Republics and these clients. They've been pulling them into our sphere of influence. And the mechanism by which we do that has become, I think, pretty clear and pretty common, is it's called the kind of Color Revolution model that we use.

KELLYAnd the way we do that is the United States State Department, through NGOs such as the National Endowment For Democracy, Freedom House and others, funds those organizations to go in to places like Ukraine. They find dissidence, they fund the dissidence, they train the dissidents and they create a movement. And then, with the combined backing of the United States and Europe, that movement's able to grow and ultimately, in many cases, overthrow the government.

NNAMDISo you think...

KELLYThe real -- go ahead.

NNAMDIKelly, so you think, in the final analysis, this was all orchestrated by the United States.

KELLYI think to a great extent it is. I think that certainly people are upset with the government and the level of corruption in places like Ukraine. But we play on those people who are upset and we use them to our advantage.

NNAMDIWell, allow me to have Oxana Shevel respond, because Oxana, you have family that was among the protestors in Kiev. Can you talk about what they see...

SHEVELYes, absolutely.

NNAMDI...about the influence of the United States there?

SHEVELOh, absolutely. I personally would disagree with (unintelligible) exactly because, I mean, if you think about people who literally risking their lives and -- my cousin and other members on the front line delivering medical supplies and so forth literally dodging sniper fire and spending their money doing that. So you can certainly, you know, spend money to try to organize a (word?) protest, but you cannot have -- there is just not enough money out there.

SHEVELAnd, you know, you can people -- you can't pay people to risk their lives for, you know, to engage in an activity that Ukrainian engaged (unintelligible) months So not to put it differently, yes, there are many, you know, places that people are dissatisfied specifically with the government that it was so easy as the (unintelligible) money for the NGOs and orchestrating the removal of the -- of authoritarian leaders there.

SHEVELBut we should have (unintelligible) for authoritarian leaders falling left and right and we don't see that. So, clearly, you know, the impetus for the domestic politics, the domestic dynamics, the motivation of people there, the weaknesses of the east there, it's a much more complicated story. So I would say that the U.S. support for the, you know, NGOs and so forth in Ukraine is certainly wasn't the main cause of the fall of the regime.

SHEVELFurthermore, even if we take the final argument that say the West fund the NGOs is to look at the kind of NGOs they're funding. They are always universally demanding such things as free elections, accountability of the government. So, really, I don't know if we would call this sort of bringing the country in line in the U.S. or Western fear of influence or orbit. You know, it is a clear basic democratic rights that people anywhere should be able to enjoy without being either in the U.S. or in Russia going (unintelligible) influence.

NNAMDIKelly, thank you very much for your call. But, Keith Darden, other critics of the American media argue that we are getting a very biased feel of the situation in Ukraine, that because of the United States' ongoing rivalry with Russia. Our press has fallen into a kind of simplistic Cold War style narrative to explain what is happening. For example, Yanukovych's decision to stir away from the European economic pact in favor of Russian economic aid has been cast as a political decision.

NNAMDIBut most of those reports fail to mention how painful the European alternative was. How would you compare the deals being offered by the European Union and Russia?

DARDENYes, I think that's right that there was going to be a lot of pain involved with the signing of the association agreement, in particular getting the funding from the IMF. There was going to have to be an increase in prices for energy at the consumer level, a significant increase that most Ukrainians would not be able to afford. There were going to have to be cuts in the government budget, which would have resulted in a large number of layoffs.

DARDENAnd that's obviously something that Yanukovych wanted to avoid. He also wanted to avoid the improvements in governance and judiciary -- and the judiciary that the IMF was asking for. And I think that's probably the real sensitive point for him, because that threatened his hold on power. But it's true that it's not clear how Ukraine is going to get out of this mess. And that there will be pain involved in economic restructuring.

DARDENAnd that neither the opposition nor the government in power seems to be confronting that. And Yanukovych got a little bit of a lease on life by getting the offers of aid from Russia. But, you know, the offers of aid from the United States and Europe are not going to come without any strings attached. And so, I think Ukraine is looking at a difficult period ahead. And I would disagree with the previous caller, this was no collared revolution.

DARDENAnd this was not pushed from the outside. In many ways, the U.S. is struggling to get a handle on what a significantly mobilized population is going to mean for a strategic country like Ukraine. It's very much not in U.S. interest to have that country fall apart.

NNAMDIHere is Indira (sp?) in Alexandria, VA. Indira, your turn.

INDIRAThank you, Kojo, for having me. I have a question within your question of it being a coup. And my question is, isn't a coup -- doesn't it come from the military? And wasn't this a movement of the people to defend themselves from tyranny, from a corrupt government attacking their people and their civilians protesting specifically?

NNAMDIWell, the coup does not necessarily have to come from the military. And when you use the term "the people," that's what we're trying to identify here today, exactly who is whom in the situation. But I'm going to go back to Oxana Shevel on this, because over the weekend, Oxana, a group of activists and protesters seized the presidential palace, opened it up to the public. There were details about luxuries that were almost offensive to many people from a private zoo to a private restaurant on a Spanish galleon. In addition to responding to Indira's question about the people taking power, how much of the economic and political crisis can be pegged to corruption?

SHEVELYes. I think definitely, you know, these people are completely outraged to be, you know, they seem to be just what you saw the hostages and so forth and there were documents also that were fished out of the river that showed the kind of money that Yanukovych was spending on his -- this estate, where the curtains for one room alone the price was 250 million euros for curtains in a country where people are struggling to put food on the table and children don't have cancer medicine.

SHEVELThe people are really outraged by that. As far as, you know -- and certainly, you know, I think the economist may analyze it in the most sophisticated way but certainly the popular perception will be even more. And it's already have been a lot of economic misfortunes in Ukraine has to do with the government corruption and theft of money from state offers today was in our own Ukrainian Treasury in Switzerland.

SHEVELSo I definitely share Keith's concerned that Ukraine have very tough economic (unintelligible) and default to large and, you know, the money, the Western aid is urgently needed. But, again, as you said, that strings will be attached (unintelligible) from the government essentially Ukrainians have been avoiding largely for the last 20 plus years would now have to be implemented.

SHEVELAnd that also raises, again, deception and the fear of regional polarization and trying to (word?) the heavy industries that are highly dependent on the Russian gas that are outdated and that consume a lot of these gas, you know, they often worry about the people. So if you shut them down, in addition to kind of, you know, cultural concerns and also could be real economic detrimental situation just in the regions that did not support the euro (unintelligible).

SHEVELSo certainly I think in the weeks ahead, a lot of tension will be shifting to the implications of the economic (word?) on the crisis. And just final point on the coup, I think if the leaders, you know, declared themselves to be now in power, that would certainly be a coup and that would sort of -- they would say that's the end of the story. But they have new elections scheduled for president already for the end of May.

SHEVELSo, you know, people would be able to choose and, you know, choosing leaders in election is the essential element of democracy. So I think exactly the course. They're now talking about interim government as opposed the opposition seizing power and keeping power. I don't think the coup analogy is appropriate.

NNAMDIKeith Darden, we're running out of time. But as quickly as you can, nobody is really declaring any winners in this mess. What does Russia want from Ukraine? What does the U.S. and the West want from Ukraine?

DARDENRussia, first and foremost, wants stability in Ukraine. This is a, you know, country of 46 million people on its borders with which it has very close historic ties. Second, I think they would like to make sure that those citizens of Ukraine who feels strong ties to Russia, who speak Russian, who have a historic affinity with Russia are not repressed. And I think that's something that the United States has an interest in as well, because that is going to be key to Ukrainian stability.

DARDENThe U.S. also, I think, wants to see Ukraine move towards Europe. And by that I don't mean just the signing of an association agreement but actually take the necessary steps, create the necessary institutions, create the kind of society that's necessary if you're going to take your place as part of a European community. And that's a very different thing than what's been going on for the past 20 years in Ukraine and that's going to be a difficult step.

NNAMDIKeith Darden is a professor in the School of International Service at American University and author of the forthcoming book, "Resisting Occupation in Eurasia." Thank you for joining us. Oxana Shevel is professor of political science at Tufts University. She is the author of "Migration, Refugee Policy, and State Building in Postcommunist Europe." Oxana Shevel, thank you for joining us.

SHEVELThank you for inviting me.

NNAMDIWe're going to take a short break. When we come back, a fictional take on crime and racial tensions in the suburban community. We'll talk with author Rachel Louise Snyder about her new novel, "What We've Lost Is Nothing." I'm Kojo Nnamdi.