MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Howard Ross is here. Consider the following. The star of the hit reality TV show, "Duck Dynasty" says in a magazine interview that homosexuality is a sin and that blacks he met in Louisiana were happy working on farms before the Civil Rights Movement. He's suspended from the show, then returned.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIA Fox News host fights to halt what he calls a war on Christmas, then declares victory, even as his own station wishes viewers happy holidays. And the owner of the Washington Redskins refuses to change his team's name, saying offensiveness is in the eye of the beholder. As our culture becomes more diverse and our collective values shift, what happens to the people who resist change or who cling to beliefs that no longer reflect the majority?

MR. KOJO NNAMDIWhere is the modern day line between political correctness, if you will, and free speech? Joining us to talk about this is Howard Ross. He's a Principal at Cook Ross Diversity Consultants, author of the book, "Reinventing Diversity: Transforming Organizational Community to Strengthen People, Purpose, and Performance." Howard Ross, Happy New Year. How do you say early birthday greetings?

MR. HOWARD ROSSI don't know, but they both go back to you, Kojo.

NNAMDIYes. Yes. Yes. Both of our birthdays are this week, so we wish each other a happy birthday. Let's start with "Duck Dynasty." The reality TV show about a Louisiana family that manufactures duck calls for use by hunters. The patriarch of the family, Phil Robertson, told GQ Magazine that homosexuality is sinful. He also mentioned beastiality. Where do his views come from?

ROSSWell, I mean, I think, obviously his views are not different from the views of a lot of people in our culture. And there are a number of questions here. There's one, which are his views, and then there -- the secondary questions about what happens when he expresses his views. And one of the challenges with reality TV, of course, is that it's entertainment. And, to some degree, people are seen as reality TV entertainers because they're edgy, because they push the envelope, because they trigger things in people.

ROSSOtherwise, it would be boring for people. So, so we set people up to make these shows and to be there because they're colorful characters, and then when they get too colorful, you know, things like this happen. I think the thing about it that was interesting -- there were a couple of things that were interesting for me. One is that, you know, there are really two aspects of free speech. There's one aspect, which is that Phil Robertson can say whatever he wants to say, and he can continue to say whatever he wants to say, whether he's on the TV show with A&E or not. His free speech hasn't been limited or completely restricted in that sense.

ROSSAnd that A&E has a right, as a business, to put on whoever they want to put on, to represent whatever they do. If you would have said something, for example, that was excessively sexual or violent or something else, they might have made that same determination. So, I do think, you know, I'm not a big believer in political correctness and being -- locking people down, because I think it sometimes shuts down the conversation rather than opening it up. But I think that the more interesting thing for me is, and I, as you know, I blogged about this last week, is that our society has gotten to the point where that kind of comment is such a big deal.

ROSSAnd it struck me particularly last night, Kojo. Leslie, you know, my wife, and I were watching a quick rerun of a Seinfeld episode, and I didn't check the date. I should have, but my guess is it's probably 10 years ago. And it was...

NNAMDIOr in the 90s. It was a 90s show.

ROSSThat's right. So, so whatever. So 15 years ago. Whatever. But, I mean, it was an episode in which Jerry was carrying a purse. There was a whole thing about whether it was purse or an Italian man bag. Or whatever. And then at some point, in the later part of the episode, he also has a fur coat on. So he's got this coat and Kramer makes this big deal about the fact, oh, Jerry's becoming a dandy, and everybody laughs. And it occurred -- and once again, homophobic comment.

ROSSYou know, he was obviously making an allusion there. And I wondered whether that same thing that was so comfortable and normal, just not 10, 15 years ago, whether the writers would have cut it out now. I think that we're seeing changing morays around what's acceptable. And what all of this says is that we're getting to a place in our culture where, you know, taking shots at a lesbian/gay/bisexual/transgender people is somewhat akin to taking shots at people of color.

NNAMDII suspect that would probably not be in the show today. But if you'd like to join the conversation, give us a call. 800-433-8850. Was the television network A&E right to suspend "Duck Dynasty's" Phil Robertson for remarks in a magazine interview insulting gays and blacks? 800-433-8850. And how does, as Howard was pointing out, the call to punish anti-gay remarks by the star of "Duck Dynasty" reflect changes in our cultural values? In response to the outcry over his remarks, the A&E network suspended Phil Robertson from filming the show, then brought him back.

NNAMDIWhat does that say about shifting cultural norms? Are you surprised? Well, you just mentioned that, that making negative comments about gays is now a suspendable offense. But Phil Robertson also told GQ Magazine that even before the Civil Rights Movement, he never saw blacks mistreated in Louisiana, and, in fact, he thinks they were happy. Some people are calling this an expression of bigotry. What do you say?

ROSSWell, it goes back to this sort of the happy slave comments about people. You know, that African Americans were happier when they were in slavery. They were being taken care of. I mean, clearly, there's a lot of ignorance in the statement, and, of course, from the standpoint of, you know, as a white person, part of the dominant group in that part of the country at that time, he may very well have seen it that way, and there are any number of reasons why.

ROSSOne of which was that it's dangerous for African Americans to let white people know how they're really feeling. And so, another is that he doesn't really understand what's going on in front of him. There are all kinds of reasons why that ignorance shows up.

NNAMDII saw one scholar who actually wrote about how many lynchings of black people were taking place in that part of the world during the precise time that he was saying.

ROSSRight. At that exact time. Yes. So maybe they were happy not to being lynched. I mean, you know, but I think it's, I think what's telling is our feeling, you can hear that in this comment, and it's true for everyone of us as human beings, that we look at a situation through our own lens. And from his standpoint, in his lens, they look this way, therefore they are that way. And I think every one of us, as human beings, do this. You know, we see each other on the street. He's angry. He's friendly. He's not.

ROSSWe make it up based on projection, based on what we see through ourselves. As opposed to saying, it appears that way to me, but do I really inquire to find out? Do I really check out my projection and see whether or not it's true? Or do I even measure my projection against the reality that I'm seeing, the facts that I'm seeing about the way people are living, and wonder why there's this dissonance between people who are obviously not being treated equally and appear happy. Why might that dissonance be showing up? Is there something I'm missing in the picture?

ROSSBut that requires a deeper thought than simply a reaction. And I think, for all of us, we all have a responsibility and an opportunity on a daily basis to do that, whether it's in our jobs, our businesses on the street, or with our loved ones and our family. To say, OK, I feel like you're doing this, but let me check that out a little bit to see whether my projection is accurate.

NNAMDIYou work with companies and groups all over the country on recognizing and embracing cultural diversity. To what extent is this an issue of geography and socio-economics? A lot of "Duck Dynasty" viewers reportedly liked the show because they identify with Phil Robertson and his family and their values.

ROSSYeah, well, I think that for an awful lot of people, and I have to say, by the way, I'm not a viewer of the show. I'm not not a viewer of the show, as a position. I just haven't seen the show.

NNAMDISame here.

ROSSWe actually watched a little part of an episode, just after all of this, just to get a sense of what it was about. That there is, in each of us, a collection of cultural experiences that has contributed to who we are. And that includes things that we acknowledge and like in ourselves, and things that we don't particularly acknowledge and don't particularly like in ourselves. And some of that is, of course, the socialization process. And so we may grow up with a particular attitude and then learn it's not an appropriate attitude to have anymore. But it doesn't mean that at some level, we don't still resonate with it.

ROSSAnd so, for some people, I think there is a resonance to that sort of free flowing, not having to worry about what you say, kind of shoot from the hip kind of mindset. And for many of us who feel like we have to suppress ourselves and watch what we say on a daily basis, just seeing somebody who says whatever the hell's on their mind, you know, quote end quote, feels good. And it feels liberating. And it also provides entertainment, as we said before.

NNAMDIOn, therefore, to Jason in Manassas, Virginia. Jason, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JASONYes, hi Kojo. I just want to point out the distinction between what Kramer said on Seinfeld. That was fiction. That was a dramatization, whereas the "Duck Dynasty" article was -- he was given a forum in which to give his views, and it was hate speech. So there really is a distinction between the -- and I see on television, even now, that we still get away with a lot of things in dramatization. In the name of drama or fiction. I also want to point out that...

NNAMDIWell, allow me to handle one point at a time, because it's fascinates me, Howard, that Jason said it was hate speech when, in fact, Phil Robertson said, well, what I was essentially expressing were my religious beliefs.

ROSSRight. Well, I mean, first of all, I just want to let Jason know, of course, I know that that's accurate. And I'm not suggesting they're exactly the same. I was just talking about the fact that it was a coincidence that this happened to come up, and in today's environment, I think that that's changing. But I think you're right. This becomes very challenging, you know, when something is spoken as a religious belief, and all of a sudden, you know, that means, OK, we can't, we have nothing to say about it, because it's a religious belief.

ROSSWe have to keep that in context and remember that in the Southern Baptist bible, slavery was justified. In the Africa bible, apartheid was justified. You know, that every form of bigotry, ever in history, was somehow written into a religious text so that people could justify it to themselves. And so, so the fact that something is religious belief does not mean that it's not hate speech, necessarily.

NNAMDIJason, you were about to say?

JASONActually, it's on the same point of, you know, the biblical references and stuff. Here in the state of Virginia, grounds for divorce, and this is in the legal statute, includes adultery, sodomy and buggery. Now, if you think about it, is it time for Virginia to just say adultery and kind of modernize itself, because, you know, that buggery context comes from that religious belief that that is inherently wrong and is a sin. So, even governments are perpetuating this still, to this day.

NNAMDIOK, thank you very much. And there's an ongoing debate, of course, in the Commonwealth of Virginia, about these issues. Some people would like to say, let's focus on the economic issues and not on social issues. But with those kinds of laws on the books, Jason, this argument is not going to go away. Thank you very much for your call, Jason. We move on now to Anna in Alexandria, Virginia. Anna, your turn.

ANNAHi Kojo. Thank you for your show. I wanted to just make the comment, building from what Jason just said, that after all the hoopla and that with the "Duck Dynasty" guy said, some photographs appeared of them on social media that revealed, that really, their whole "Duck Dynasty" identity is kind of a fix and that before taking on that show, they were quite yuppy looking. And one of them being hugely invested in some blonde highlights, at that point, and a very short hairdo. Absolute lack of the kind of backwater looking beards that they all sport now.

ANNAAnd no (unintelligible) present in any of the pictures. And my point with all of this is that perhaps the comments made by Phil Robertson were part of that same act and that same costume.

NNAMDIYou raise a fascinating point that has been raised by a lot of people. To what extent is reality television reality?

ROSSReality. Right.

NNAMDIExactly.

ANNAExactly. And just, you know, it doesn't make it right. And it in no way makes it acceptable, because my fear is that reality TV is putting out there these extreme characters, and these kind of unreal, ridiculous personas that they put out there. They're putting out a refuge for people who really need to deeply examine their own beliefs and their own thinking. They're putting a refuge that allows them to feel like they have an identity in popular culture. And I feel like that's very wrong.

NNAMDIWell, maybe it is because they do have an identity in popular culture, Howard.

ROSSRight. Well, and Anna, you're bringing up a very important point for us to recognize when we look at what we're doing with reality TV because it does become entertainment. And in a way, whether it's conscious or not, it becomes entertainment. You know, in physics there's -- you know, Werner Heisenberg created what he called the uncertainty principle. And in physics what the principle means is that to say it very briefly, that when we observe something, by the very fact of observing it we change it. When we study something we change it.

ROSSAnd I think nowhere is that more true in human dynamics than in reality TV. When we take a camera and put it into an environment and then begin to watch people with a camera and they know that they're being watched, by the very fact that we're doing that, we change the dynamic that's occurring in that environment. Now whether it goes to the extreme of people changing from yuppie blond locks to, you know, country bears or whatever -- however we want to distinguish those things, or whether it's through the behavior, the things that people say or don't say or the way they interact or when they decide to go to the bathroom.

ROSSI mean, any number of these things can begin to change but it fundamentally changes the dynamic. And so anybody who believes that when they're watching reality TV in any way that the people know they're being watched, it is not reality as we normally see it.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Ana. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue this conversation by shifting cultural norms with Howard Ross. Call us at 800-433-8850. Do you agree with Fox News host Bill O'Reilly that there's been a war on Christmas with too many rules about where you can say Merry Christmas, where you can put up a tree or not, 800-433-8850. Or shoot us an email to kojo@wamu.org. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation with Howard Ross. He is the author of "Reinventing Diversity: Transforming Organizational Community to Strengthen People, Purpose and Performance." He's also a principal at Cook Ross Diversity Consultants. We're discussing shifting cultural norms and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. Let's look at what you've described as another example of shifting cultural norms, Howard.

NNAMDIFor many years now, Fox News host Bill O'Reilly has been trying to stop what he says is a war on Christmas, one that prevents some public school children from singing Christmas Carols and some public buildings from putting up Christmas trees and prompts people to wish each other a bland Happy Holidays. Is there, do you think, a war on Christmas?

ROSSWell, as I said in my blog, I don't know that there's a war on Christmas but there's very clearly an organized and well-funded war against the war on Christmas. And O'Reilly and Fox News have used this as a way to kind of keep the edge going and keep the drum beating around this. And, I mean, you know, we're dealing with a change in culture.

ROSSWhen we look at the number of people in our society today who either see themselves as secular in terms of religion or who practice various combinations of religious practices, or who see themselves as identifying more with being Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim or any other culture, what we see is that the population that we're interacting with on a daily basis is overwhelmingly filled with a lot of people who are interacting around different holidays.

ROSSAnd so it's very normal for, I think, many people to greet people or to put up things in their stores which are inclusive, which say we're not excluding you by saying Merry Christmas. We're not excluding you by saying Happy Hanukah or anything else. I was just sharing with you, Kojo, at the break. I posted Happy Kwanza on the 26th on my Facebook page. And my son Gabe from California sent a note back saying, it's good to see that you're not engaging in the war against Kwanza.

NNAMDIExactly.

ROSSI mean, I think that -- but there's something underneath this which I think is more -- putting together the Fox News aspect of it, which I do believe is a cynical attempt to manipulate people to some degree and, you know, that's obviously my point of view on this thing is truth, but it's my point of view. There are people who miss the days when we all celebrated Christmas together, who miss the days when -- that I grew up in when it was Christmas and Hanukah and Kwanza or -- Kwanza didn't even exist in those days of course.

NNAMDIExactly right.

ROSSAnd there are people who sort of always hearken to the good old days. And I do think that we can be -- at the same time as wanting to be more inclusive, we can have empathy for people who have a hard time letting go of times in the past that they felt were really warm and loving and caring and good. And we have a hard time accepting change as human beings.

NNAMDIIs that something that we should be having an ongoing dialogue about? Because I'm going to relate it to our earlier topic about "Duck Dynasty" with an email from Drew in Arlington who says, "The First Amendment only applies to action by the government. The 'Duck Dynasty' matter is not a First Amendment issue.

ROSSExactly.

NNAMDIPlease correct. The second, I abhor what he said, but we need to let him speak so we understand him. The marketplace of ideas needs a broad conversation to work."

ROSSWell, I couldn't agree more. First of all, I agree completely that it was not a First Amendment issue. And what I meant to be saying before is that people were making it a First Amendment issue. It's interesting, just this morning I saw that Justice Scalia had claimed that this was a violation of the First Amendment and it should be brought to the Supreme Court, and he would be the first to throw it out. He, by the way, also said he was a "Duck Dynasty" follower. And then apparently he was with Clarence Thomas who said, right Clarence? And Thomas didn't say a word.

ROSSBut I think that you were absolutely on point here. And I think that what's happened in our culture is when things like this happen, rather than using them as a form of dialogue and an opportunity to expand our public discourse, what we do is we shut down. We shut down and we choose sides. And your classic example of this is the incident that happened with Juan Williams back when Williams said, you know, I walk on -- I'm not quoting him exactly but he said I walk on an airplane. I see somebody in Muslim garb and I wonder -- I feel nervous because I wonder what are they more committed to, being American or being a Muslim.

ROSSAnd of course he got fired from NPR. He became a, you know, hero to other people and ended up going over to Fox. And, you know, we polarize around that issue. From my standpoint, you know, in that particular case...

NNAMDIThat was an opportunity.

ROSSIt's a huge opportunity. I mean, Juan Williams is not the only person in our country who has that feeling when he walks on an airplane. And I'm not saying I agree with him or that I have the same feeling but couldn't that have been a great opportunity for us as a public discourse to say, let's look at this feeling that he expressed, because many of us feel it. And what are the implications of that both in what he's feeling and on the way it impacts people who are on the other side of that, the people who are being judged in that way?

ROSSAnd what can we do to continue to expand that discourse in a constructive way so that as a society, instead of just polarizing and choosing sides, we talk about these issues when they come up?

NNAMDILet's talk a little bit more about the alleged war on Christmas with people from two different religious perspectives. We'll talk first with Laura in Westminster, Md. Laura, your turn.

LAURAHi, Kojo. First time caller.

NNAMDIThanks.

LAURAI just wanted to say that if someone wishes me Merry Christmas, I don't correct them and say, oh no, it's Happy Hanukah. I'm just glad that they say something nice to me.

NNAMDIOkay, good.

LAURAAnd I think it's really funny. I -- Carroll County is one -- it's heavily populated with people that celebrate Christmas. I'm one of the only few Jewish people in the county. So we don't really get represented that much. So it's something that we have to deal (unintelligible).

NNAMDIYep.

LAURASo I saw happy holidays all the time unless I know for a fact that they do Christmas or they do Hanukah. It doesn't really faze me. I kind of flow back and forth. But even some of my Christian friends, they get a little upset when I go, oh, Merry Christmas. You're not Christian, you don't celebrate Christmas. But I thank it depends on the person that it's being said to and who's saying it.

NNAMDIAllow me to put you on hold while we speak with Iman in Chantilly, Va. Iman, you are now on the air. Go ahead, please.

IMANGood afternoon, Kojo. Happy New Years to you. And I just want to say that I, as a Muslim, we enjoy Christmas and we celebrate those friends who are Christian. As a matter of fact, my children and I, we went to Busch Garden. They have lighting over there, beautiful lighting and we saw them. We go there to look. But the bottom line is, when you're talking about Bill O'Reilly, Bill O'Reilly, he's a businessman. He make money out of controversy.

ROSSExactly.

IMANIt doesn't matter what you tell. The lady that was saying that Jesus Christ is white, if Jesus Chris is white, I don't remember if he was born in Pennsylvania or Bethlehem.

ROSSRight.

IMANThe bottom line is not about -- this people, they like controversy and they want to divide. That's how they make their money.

ROSSYeah.

NNAMDIWell, that's kind of how we make our money too, but that's a whole other...

ROSSRight. That's a whole other conversation, Kojo. But, no, Iman -- both of you, you know, I can resonate with what you're saying. I mean, Laura, I'm -- I also grew up in a Jewish home and identify as being Jewish. And I love Christmas. My wife grew up in a home in which they celebrated Christmas in a Christian home. And even when I was a child we used to go next door and help the family next door decorate their Christmas tree and be there in the morning when the kids opened the gifts and all that kind of stuff.

ROSSAnd, you know, I think that we can not necessarily identify with those holidays and still enjoy them. But, you know, the critical thing is to recognize that we all are in a changing paradigm here. And what was once a culture that was very homogenous around some of these issues is no longer that. And many of the people who have this real resistance to this are digging in their heels also are the false belief that the United States is a Christian country. And we know, of course, that we very decidedly are not, that the whole Bill of Rights and Freedom of Religion was designed specifically so that we were not a Christian country.

ROSSBut a majority of Americans still believe that the United States is a Christian country despite the fact that that's not true. So for people who already have a false belief, seeing this happen feels like something's being taken away.

NNAMDITalking with Howard Ross. He's a principal at Cook Ross Diversity Consultants. We're discussing shifting cultural norms. He's also author of the book "Reinventing Diversity: Transforming Organizational Community to Strengthen People, Purpose and Performance." One final question on Happy Holidays. Some people complain that that greeting symbolizes a retreat from religious traditions and a missed opportunity to learn about and appreciate religions other than our own. It seems to me that you can either think of it as a retreat from religious tradition or an advance in cultural diversity.

ROSSYeah, I mean, you know, I grew up, as I said, in a Jewish home. My mom, you know, grew up in a very, very painfully anti-Semitic environment in Baltimore in the '20s and '30s at which she would -- the only Jewish family in the middle of a German neighborhood. And had to wake up every morning before going to school at some point and wash swastikas off the window of our father's grocery store. And so for her it was very painful.

ROSSAnd I remember when I was a child coming home from school sort of humming the Christmas carols that of course in those days we were taught in school and being told, we don't sing those songs, you know because for her it felt dangerous. It felt isolating. I think the fact that we are encouraging people to understand the practices of others, the holidays of others, to see the joy in others and to greet people in their language or in a language that is inclusive of theirs is a movement towards a greater sense of plurality in our society and a greater sense of mutual understanding. But, as I said before, for some people it may feel like a loss.

NNAMDIIt's amazing what we can consider norms. It wasn't until years after high school that I recall sitting next to guys in high school who were Muslim even though scripture, as it was called, and was a requirement that you had to take. And some of those guys actually got better grades than I did in scripture even though they were Muslim. But they didn't overtly complain about it. And in later years I said, I wonder what was going on in their heads when they were being forced to learn from the book of a religion that was not theirs.

ROSSWell, I think you speak to something else as well, Kojo, which is that when we're a member of the dominant group, whatever that dominant group is, we often don't notice how much our culture is the culture. It's sort of concealed by its obviousness, is the language I like to use. And so for example, how much Christmas is around us all the time for those of us who -- you know, for those of us who are not practicing Christians and particularly for people who, you know, strongly -- very strongly identify with an alternative religious practice or religious belief or no religious belief, for that matter, how much it's pushed in people's face constantly.

ROSSAnd, of course, all of that's invisible to people who are in the dominant group because it's just sort of the air we breathe. And the same thing shows up in our businesses, whether it's comments that men make that exclude women in talking about the football games today, as everybody is, and for somebody who's not a football fan. And obviously that often falls around gender lines. I'm not saying it always does. One of the -- Rosalyn Taylor O'Neil who works with me is the biggest football fan I know.

ROSSBut -- so I think that you're pointing to something very important, which is I think when we're members of dominant groups we have to be very conscious about how much our culture is present. And we often don't see that.

NNAMDISpeaking of no religion, here's Timothy in Warrenton, Va. Timothy, your turn.

TIMOTHYYeah, about the war on Christmas, you know, because Christmas is only celebrated in this country it seems that it's dominant holiday, where people are saying, you know, let's celebrate Kwanza, let's celebrate Hanukah, let's have all the religions. Why is there a war on Christmas? Why not a war on all religions or all holidays? Why do we need to celebrate all holidays? It all falls back on making money. It's consumerism. So it has holidays so you're going to go out and spend money.

NNAMDIWell, that's how it may have evolved. That's what it may have become. But I don't want to denigrate people who feel that the holidays associated with their religion are extremely religious days, and don't necessarily want to celebrate it in a highly commercialized manner.

ROSSAnd of course there are -- Timothy, there are people who are very strident antitheists who believe that any mention of religion or any mention of anything even resembling religion is offensive. I mean, I -- you know, I was raised in a home in which when somebody sneezed you sort of automatically said, bless you. That was what you said and you were -- I was taught to do that and my parents always did that. And I was giving a talk -- I don't know, I forget what it was, maybe five years, six years ago for a large group of people, maybe 200 people. And somebody in the back of the room sneezed and I automatically said, bless you.

ROSSAnd at the end of the speech this woman came up and was very annoyed with me because I had blessed her because she has no interest in my blessing, you know, she was an atheist. And I was a little taken back by it. I mean, I understood and, you know, I apologized. I said, it was certainly no intention to offend. But I think there are people who feel that way. And I think that once again I think that those strong feelings come from not being honored for a particular point of view and feeling like things are shoved down your throat. And so people resist for those reasons.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Timothy. To move on, last Saturday MSNBC host Melissa Harris Perry issued an on-air apology after she and guests on her show the week before made fun of a photo showing Mitt Romney and his adopted African American grandson sitting on his knee. Let's listen to Melissa Harris Perry's apology.

MELISSA HARRIS PERRYLast Sunday we invited a panel of comedians for a year-in-review program. It's what we call our look back in laughter. But in one of the segments we looked at a number of photos that caught our attention over the course of the year. And in that segment I asked my guests to provide kind of off-the-cuff ideas for captions of the photos that we were seeing. Among the images we aired was one of the Romney family that showed Governor Mitt Romney's grandchildren, including his adopted grandson who's African American.

MELISSA HARRIS PERRYNow, given my own family history, I identified with that picture and I intended to say positive and celebratory things about it. But whatever the intent was, the reality is that the segment proceeded in a way that was offensive. And showing the photo in that context of that segment was poor judgment. So without reservation or qualification, I apologize to the Romney family. Adults who enter into public life implicitly consent to having less privacy. But their families, and especially their children, should not be treated callously or thoughtlessly. My intention was not malicious but I broke the ground rule that families are off limits. And for that I am sorry.

MELISSA HARRIS PERRYAlso, allow me to apologize to other families formed through trans-racial adoption because I am deeply sorry that we suggested that interracial families are in any way funny or deserving of ridicule. On this program we are dedicated to advocating for a wide diversity of families. It is one of our core principles. And I'm reminded that when we are doing so it must always be with the utmost respect. I'm generally appreciative of everyone who offered serious criticisms of last Sunday's program. And I'm reminded that our fiercest critics can sometimes be our best teachers.

NNAMDIClearly, lesson learned.

ROSSI tell you, you know, sometimes you recognize that handling something that goes wrong, apologizing with authenticity and vulnerability like that impresses you even more than if the person hadn't said the thing to begin with, you know. I mean, imagine if we were in a culture where people just handled their stuff that way. You know, I screwed up. I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention.

NNAMDIAnd the apology was not conditional.

ROSSThat's right.

NNAMDIIt was not an if I offended anybody type of an apology.

ROSSExactly. It was -- she owned -- as opposed to what we often see these days, which is somebody comes out with pieces of paper in front of them. I want to apologize to my friends and family -- turn page -- for the awful thing that I said. I know that it -- turn page -- offended people -- you know, on these constructed apologies which are designed to protect people legally as opposed to really deal with the issue.

ROSSAnd I think, you know, one of the challenges that we have as a culture today is that we've forgotten how to say I'm sorry. And mostly what happens is you and I get into an argument, Kojo, and you say something. And I realize, oh my god, he's right, instead of saying, Kojo, I'm sorry, I've been a jerk, I say, God, look what time it is, I gotta go, you know.

NNAMDIYeah.

ROSSI mean, and if people just handled stuff like -- and I think Romney's response to that showed that.

NNAMDIYes.

ROSSHe said, look, handled.

NNAMDIHe said, I accept the apology. It was apparently -- not apparently, he said it was a sincere apology, I accepted it as that. And I guess one of the reasons that Melissa Harris-Perry was so emotional is because this was a liberal talk show host, a liberal program that demonstrated the kind of lack of sensitivity that liberals often criticize others about. So she...

ROSSYeah. And I think that that's something else entirely, which is that we have to be careful to realize that being on one side of the political spectrum or another does not necessarily limit our ignorance in the statements we make.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. If you've called, stay on the line. We will get to your calls. If you'd like to call, you can call 800-433-8850. How does Dan Snyder's resistance to changing his team's name, in your view, reflect a clash of values? 800-433-8850. You can send email to kojo@wamu.org, or shoot us a tweet @kojoshow. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking with Howard Ross. He is a principal at Cook Ross Diversity Consultants, and author of the book "Reinventing Diversity: Transforming Organizational Community to Strengthen People, Purpose, and Performance." Let's look at another dispute over shifting cultural norms. Daniel Snyder, the owner of the Washington Redskins refuses to change the football team's name, which a growing number of people insist is offensive. Talk about the evolution of public perceptions here and where Snyder falls on that spectrum.

ROSSWell, you know, it's an interesting one, and clearly it's a fascinating one because, you know, it's not an easy question. I mean, this has become -- has continued to become more of an issue, and one of the things we should also say about all of these issues, Kojo, whether it's the Melissa Harris-Perry clip that we just heard or the other issues, is that things that some people felt in the past and in isolated pockets people felt, or a minority of people felt, now, of course, become much more public domain because the Internet allows us to blog about them, to write about them, to share our ideas with people, and to gather the people who are in different places.

ROSSSo if I've got ten percent here and ten percent there, we can get lost, but if those ten percent can begin to connect, all of a sudden we have a movement. I was in Minneapolis when the team was playing the Vikings a number of -- couple of months ago, and, you know, drove past the stadium that night on the way to meet with my clients, and there were hundreds and hundreds of people out in front because Minneapolis, of course, has a large Native American population who were not all Native Americans, but a lot of mixed race people who -- this has become a big issue.

NNAMDIDemonstrating against...

ROSSThey were demonstrating against the team, yeah. And it's becoming a bigger and bigger issue. For myself, you know, my personal point of view about this, which is that I think that we have a surprisingly -- I would say even shockingly as a culture minimal amount of conversation about the devastation that Native American Indians have wrought in the course of our history. I mean, we all know the story about what happened a hundred years ago or 200 years ago, but most people, for example, don't realize that Native American people on reservations, they still have health disparities that are akin to people in the developing world.

ROSSThat, for example, Native Americans have five times the dental health disparities that Caucasians have in this culture, and that they're still suffering today from that diminishment of what happened in that whole process. And this language, this particular word, while some people say is not offensive, Webster's defines it as defensive. I mean, it's not -- there's not a question that overall it's seen that way. The question from Dan Snyder's standpoint to my mind is, you know, what does one need to do to feel like this is the right thing to do for a community, for a culture, or even to make a statement?

ROSSI mean, we can't help but compare it, for example, to what Abe Pollin did with the basketball team. Nobody forced Abe Pollin or put anywhere near the pressure of Abe Pollin when he said -- decided to change the name of the team from the Bullets to eventually the Wizards. Pollin said, look, I don't want to be -- I don't want to our team associated in a city that's suffering from gun violence, have something associated that could even minimally be said to contribute to that.

ROSSAnd so, you know, when we look at those two people and the way they're dealing with it, I'm left with a strikingly with a sense that Snyder has not done a very good job of even managing the conversation.

NNAMDIWhat is status quo bias and how does it relate to the controversy over the name of the football team?

ROSSWell, status quo bias occurs when something becomes so comfortable to us that we no longer realize that there's any bias at all. And it occurs in a lot of language that is in our culture. When we think of things like this is a good example. You know, the team was named back in the thirties by a guy, George Preston Marshall, who was, you know, an affirmed racist who the team is the last team to have African-American players on it. He was, you know, he was dug in -- heels dug in about that.

ROSSHe chose the name at that time, and it's sort of become normal to us. So that becomes normal to us, just in the same sense as I've had people say to me, hey, I really Jewed that guy down on a deal, without even realizing that that was offensive because they use that language so frequently, not even thinking about it being associated with Jewish people anymore. Or the black sheep in the family where the bad guy has a black hat and how that associates negativity with the color black. And so we've got -- or low man on the totem pole, without thinking about the fact that, you know, we're taking a sacred object from a culture and using it in a reference like that.

ROSSAnd I'm not gonna sit here and say that I haven't at sometimes made references that -- without thinking about it. Or another one that's a classic is a rule of thumb, and I don't know if you know where that originally comes from...

NNAMDINo.

ROSS...but the term rule of thumb comes from Old English Commonwealth law, and what it depicts is that the law at the time was that you could beat your wife with a stick as long as the stick was no thicker than your thumb. And yet we use that terminology. So our language is embedded with all of these things, and a lot of times when people hear people correct these things or try to change them, we think this is political correctness run amok I'll say with quote -- I'm doing air quotes here. People can't see me doing that I just notice.

ROSSPolitical correctness run amok because the offense that was inserted is forgotten, and now the changing of it seems like the problem. And so, you know, we talk about status quo bias. We just mean that something's become so comfortable that the bias now has become normal.

NNAMDIOnto the telephones with Brian in Washington DC. Brian, your turn.

BRIANThanks for taking my call. Just to speak to the Redskins name, I myself have Native American heritage as well. I grew up learning about the Wounded Knee March of Tears. But when you talk about this normalized bias, we have it all around us. We stole land and property from people and yet we name it after them.

ROSSMm-hmm. Right.

BRIANSo it's just -- it's ridiculous that this name -- I mean, I hate the name, and I think it should be changed as well, but there's also very kind of tongue-in-cheek other little things that are tossed around. The word Cracker, I hear that in DC often -- often. More often than ever. The word Spic, you mentioned Jew, all these things, anything -- these are just -- these are little things that are tossed around very flagrantly by the African-American community here in DC.

BRIANSo, you know, to call racism on other things and then not be, you know, comfortable with changing the name, we're not even recognizing that there is racism and that name is deplorable. Thank you.

NNAMDIOkay.

BRIANI'll take my comments offline.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Brian. Care to comment?

ROSSYeah. Look, I think, Brian, you're pointing to the same thing. It is, as I said, it gets deeply embedded, and I think it's particularly ironic, obviously, when you mentioned, you know, the African-American community, and I could say the same thing about the Jewish community or another community that suffered oppression. You know, one would think that a community that suffers from oppression because of their race or ethnicity or culture or background would be more sensitive to these things, but in fact...

NNAMDINot necessarily so.

ROSSIn fact, research shows that there's no correlation. That not necessarily any more. In fact, we just as quickly turn to somebody else. I mean, I say all the time when I'm doing training, you know, I have family members who are Jewish who will rail against anti-Semitism and make a questionable racial comment. I know African-Americans who will rail against race and make a questionable comment about lesbians, gays, or bisexuals, or transgender people.

ROSSI know LGBT folks who make comments about immigrants, and, you know, we could go on and on. We all got something going on with somebody, and it does not necessarily make us more sensitive at all.

NNAMDIHere is Matthew in Ashburn, Va. Matthew, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MATTHEWYeah. Thank you for taking my call. In light of the Mitt Romney discussion, I just wanted to throw something out there.

NNAMDISure.

MATTHEWJust for your -- just to hear what you two think. I don't know if you're aware of it. A comedian by the name of Natasha Leggero was on ABC, I believe it was ABC, on New Year's Eve. If not ABC, it was one of the other networks. And during her appearance, she made a joke about Spaghetti-o's using their logo to take a moment to remember Pearl Harbor with us, and she basically made some jokes about how, you know, was it really necessary for a major U.S. corporation to be, you know, I'm trying to remember what the exact quote was, but it was something about -- oh, here it is.

MATTHEWI pulled it up while I was waiting. "It sucks that the survivors of Pearl Harbor are being mocked by the only food they can still chew." And ABC and she got a lot of negative blowback and she chose not to apologize over the weekend saying that people were, first of all, being overly sensitive, and secondly, that -- why should she apologize for something she said in joke. She fully respects our servicemen and what they've done for us, but we've sort of gotten oversensitive, and the fact of the matter is, you know, people are complaining to her and being upset about what she said. Are you getting upset about the way veterans are being treated right now?

MATTHEWThey've, you know, Congress just cut their pensions. How can you get up and take offense at something like what she said which was, let's be honest here, may have been a little tasteless, but it was, you know, no worse than what many comedians say, and they get upset at that, but you can just have the cognitive dissidence to ignore what's going on in Congress with the way they're treating veterans.

NNAMDIMatt...

MATTHEWSo she said she felt that she did not want to make an insincere apology. She stands by what she said.

NNAMDIInteresting. You know, I think if she had said it about her own grandparents, it would have been perceived differently. You can make fun of your own relatives, but when you're making fun of complete strangers because they happen to be elderly, people see that a little bit differently, especially if they happen to be veterans.

ROSSWell, as Richard Pryor or Chris Rock or Henny Youngman taught us, it's find to make fun ourselves. In fact, it's a way to relieve some of the pain that's there when we take ownership of that. But, you know, I mean, I think if we were to discount offensive comments by saying that they were jokes, we would have a whole lot of stuff we were dealing with, because often the fact that we make jokes about things is what makes them offensive. So I'm not sure that that's relieving -- I mean, the challenge for me in a situation like this is, if you say something even with no intent to offend, and I think Melissa's comment really spoke to this.

ROSSEven with no intent to offend, you say something and you know that people were offended by it, I really wonder what it is that stops people from saying, you know, I recognize that when I said that I had no intent to offend and, I, you know, I apologize that it did offend some people, and I wish them all the best. You know what I mean? What is it about our ego structure that makes it so hard to just accept the fact that sometimes we offend people accidentally?

NNAMDIWell, one of the things you and I were talking about in the break are how comedians, especially today, feel that in order to be noticed, they have to be edgy, and that if they are in fact to be edgy, then they've got to say some things that not everybody is going to necessarily find pleasant, and I think that's one of the reason for the lack of apology in this case, because I can say, hey, I'm a comedian, it was a joke.

ROSSThat's right. And in fact, the fact that I'm edgy enough to say it and I don't care what you think, makes me even more edgy.

NNAMDIExactly. Matthew, thank you very much for your call. I wanted to get back to the Redskins name again because there's certainly a ground swell for change, but that decision rests with one man, the owner, who is not persuaded yet. In the meantime, it's my understanding you have decided to end your lifelong loyalty to the team, and some sports writers are unilaterally choosing not to use the name in their reporting. How much power do individuals have to accelerate cultural change, or to block it?

ROSSWell, I think this gets back to, in a way, to the A&E thing. I mean, we are in a free market, and one -- I felt the same way about the Chick Fil A incident that happened a number -- because the owner of Chick Fil A, the CEO of Chick Fil A is decidedly against -- is homophobic, and has not only contributed to movements against gay rights here in the United States but around the world, and so there was a lot of pushback, and people said that, you know, I think Rahm Emanuel said that they didn't want Chick Fil A to build, and my response was, look, I don't think the government should intervene here and say that don't let Chick Fil A build, but I'm choosing not to shop there.

ROSSI'm choosing not to go in there, which given I'm a vegan is pretty easy, but nonetheless. I think that the market...

NNAMDIThis one is pretty -- this one with the Washington football team is harder for you.

ROSSYes. Yeah. You know, for me, it's -- look, I mean, you know, maybe if I were a more rabid fan it would be a harder choice for me, but for me it's pretty simple, you know. I know people who are Native American. I've worked with people in the Native American community. I had a dear friend who used to work for me, Bobby Joe Smith, who came out of the Lakota tradition and tribe, and I've learned a lot about the pain of that. And even though this is a very small population, I really believe strongly that if we're going to have a culture in which everybody feels included, then people have to ally with people and leave them to fight their own battles.

ROSSAnd this is a relatively simple thing for me to do. I'm not making a big deal about it. When I wrote about it in my blog it was the only time I've ever really said it in any public way, is that I've made the choice that, you know, if the team chooses to do that way, you know, I'll find my entertainment elsewhere. And I think that a lot of people are doing that with A&E, and they've done in the past with other things as well.

NNAMDIHere's Melinda in Springfield, Va. Melinda, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MELINDAGood afternoon, Kojo. I just wanted to go back a little bit to the "Duck Dynasty." I'm not a follower of "Duck Dynasty," but having friends that are, I've kind of got into it. I am a practicing Christian, and my comment goes is, as a practicing Christian, I try to draw closer to my God, and my God tells me very specifically some things that are sins that he considers to be wrong from lying to homosexuality. Just because I believe it's wrong or a sin, doesn't make me homophobic, just like it doesn't make me liaraphobic.

MELINDABecause on the other side of that, my God also commands me to love everyone, and that means to respect everyone, and to try and live in harmony with everyone. So my concern as a practicing Christian in today's society is...

NNAMDIDo you make a distinction between a Christian and a practicing Christian?

MELINDAYes. Because...

NNAMDIWhat's the distinction?

MELINDAWhat's the distinction? Your guest had talked about how he's raised Jewish. It's whether you are claiming the name or actually doing the actions.

NNAMDIWhether you're talking the talk or walking the walk. But we only have about a minute left, so I'll allow Howard Ross to respond.

ROSSYeah. I think -- look, Melinda, you're speaking to something that is really a challenge for us in our culture which is that, you know, people have different religious beliefs and some of those religious beliefs are decidedly offensive to other people, and this is certainly a challenge, and people look at Leviticus 17:22 and it says, man shall not lie with a woman, but we also ignore other sections of the Bible which we choose not to believe.

ROSSYou know, Numbers 14:16, I think it is, which says that you can stone your neighbor if you're working on the holiday. And so I just think that we need to recognize that religious beliefs are just that, they're beliefs, they're not truth, and we have to recognize that living in a pluralistic society, we have to try to be as sensitive to each other as we can.

NNAMDIMelinda, thank you very much for your call. Happy New Year to you. Howard Ross is a principal at Cook Ross Diversity Consultants, and author of the book "Reinventing Diversity: Transforming Organizational Community to Strengthen People, Purpose, and Performance." Howard, always a pleasure.

ROSSOh, really, Kojo, thanks so much

NNAMDIAnd thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.