MR. MARC FISHERFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your community with the world. I'm Marc Fisher of The Washington Post sitting in for Kojo.

MR. MARC FISHERComing up later in the broadcast, graphic novelist Joe Sacco's latest book explores The Great War, an epic cartoon spanning a single 24 foot long page that tells the story of World War One. But first, Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, and El Paso, Texas are just across the border from one another, but they could hardly feel more different. Powerful Mexican drug cartels have taken virtual control of Juarez, turning it into the murder capital of the world, with 3600 murders in 2010.

MR. MARC FISHERWhile across the river in El Paso, just five murders were reported in the same year. A new documentary explores the world of the all powerful cartels south of the border and the wildly popular culture that celebrates the narco lifestyle. Joining us to discuss this is Shaul Schwarz. He is the filmmaker behind "Narco Cultura," a documentary that opens at the West End Cinema here in Washington on December 6th. He's an award winning photo journalist who's reported on wars and humanitarian disasters around the world.

MR. MARC FISHERAnd as director of "Narco Cultura," this is a film that is, on the one hand, just beautiful. You get this sense of Juarez and other places in Mexico and the gorgeous landscapes, and yet there are literally rivers of blood flowing in the streets of Juarez. And the juxtaposition is chilling, but even more chilling is the music and culture that you're telling the story of this "Narco Cultura." What is "Narco Cultura?"

MR. SHAUL SCHWARZHey Marc. Thanks for having me. Well, "Narco Cultura" is really a term to think about the drug war, a little bit in a different light. You know, as a photographer, I went down, originally, to Ciudad Juarez in 2008, and took pictures. And for about two years, I really focused on photographing for different magazines and outlets. And I think, primarily, the pictures were of the blood bath happening on the streets of Juarez, and then elsewhere in Mexico.

MR. SHAUL SCHWARZBut what bothered me a little bit about that reporting is it was limited to the violence, and the story I saw happening was really a story that impacts millions on both sides of the border. Because this conflict, this, what we like to call the Mexican War, and I always go, The Mexican-American War, drug war, it really takes a huge toll on a lot of people beyond these gangsters. And the way it's explored in "Narco Cultura" is primarily through the "narcocorridos." To those who don't know, 'cause I didn't know before I went down there, "narcocorridos" is, if you will, the hip hop or gangster rap of Mexican music.

MR. SHAUL SCHWARZIt does not sound, at all, like hip hop. It actually sounds much closer to very traditional Mexican nortena music. But the words glorify these cartel members. And it explores how this war really impacts a much broader level than the, just violence.

KEITHWell, let's get a sense of what this music actually sounds like. This is a song called, "Bloodthirsty Killers of M1." And let's take a listen to that. It's by Bukanas De Kuliakan. And are we ready with that?

FISHERAnd the lyrics say, "with an AK-47 and bazooka on my shoulder, cross my path and I'll chop your head off. We're bloodthirsty, crazy, and we like to kill." These are words that are so at odds with the lilting, happy sound of this music.

SCHWARZI've been asked before, sometimes, is this a love song? Is this -- corridos, again, yeah, they do sound -- I think because they're created, if you will, from an immigrant identity problem, they do sound like traditional Mexican nortena music. And, in fact, corridos, by the way, have been around there, not that new, they've been around for a long time. But this type of corridos, this very outgoing, violent type, a lot of the times called movemiento alterado, an altered movement.

SCHWARZThey're fairly new, and they're a real response to the harsh violence going on south of the border. Shockingly, they are celebrated in hundreds, if not thousands of clubs across the country, across the US, I mean. Every weekend and many days of the week.

FISHERAnd you see that in the film, where you travel with some of these singers and bands as they go around the United States and packing in enormous crowds, and very enthusiastic people, including children and adults. There's an absolutely chilling scene in the film of one of the singers serenading his two year old. And actually using this song we just heard as a lullaby, while he's talking about murder.

FISHERYeah, it's an interesting -- I think -- obviously, I put this film out because I think it's disturbing, as well. And I wanted people from the scene and people from outside the scene to know that it exists. And people from the scene to kind of think of what it is they're celebrating here. But what we are really seeing is that corridos have impacted Latino and beyond even Mexicans, really Latino culture in this country and south of the border, so high that they exist beyond where you'd expect them.

SCHWARZMeaning, we go to a quinceanero. A quinceanero is a party of a woman coming to age at 15, which, it's kind of a...

FISHEREssentially a sweet 16.

SCHWARZA sweet 16. Exactly.

FISHERAt 15, right.

SCHWARZAnd it's pretty much the last place you'd expect to hear these kind of songs, and yet, you rarely can be at a quinceanero without hearing these songs. The other subject of my film, Richie Ricardo Soto, is a CSI worker who picks up bodies and evidence in ciudad Juarez, and it's -- he works in the busiest CSI unit in the world. And interestingly enough, he too likes this music. You'd think he would be the most repelled in the world from this, so it gives us a little bit of an idea that this really has become a stone, if you will.

SCHWARZSomething very central in Mexican and Mexican-American culture now.

FISHERYou can join our conversation with Shaul Schwarz by calling us at 1-800-433-8850, or email us at kojo@wamu.org. You can also send a tweet to @kojoshow. And, Shaul Schwarz, in your film, "Narco Cultura," there is this -- there are these repeated scenes of people celebrating the murders and the violence of the cartels, and even interviews with school kids talking about how they would love to have a relationship with a narco dealer, with a cartel leader. There is a sort of amorality that's shot through these encounters.

FISHERIs that what you see it as, or is there some other reason why people are embracing this message?

SCHWARZYou know, when I first met this culture, kind of face to face, again, it was after about two years of covering, really, the violence, I was shocked and appalled, and it literally started, and I'll get to your, to answering your direct question. It literally started on a day that I woke up in Tijuana, and I covered two murder scenes. And at night, I drove across the border and within about an hour or so, was in Riverside, and went to a Bukanas de Culiacan concert. And I saw Edgar literally performs with a plastic bazooka in his hand, and there's toy guns in the audience.

SCHWARZAnd the audience that you see in the movie, literally singing that song. And I was so appalled, initially. I was so shocked and angered, but I really quickly turned that around and said, well, how did we get here? What is it in this culture, what is it in this reality that made these teens, and actually beyond only teens, think as these traffickers, who I think of as a cancer of Mexico, and to some degree, a big cancer to this country. How did they make them Robin Hoods? How did we get to a place where a school girl, as you mentioned, can say, I would love to date and marry a trafficker.

SCHWARZIt's actually not a bad thing, she says. And then she corrects herself, says, oh, maybe it's a little bit bad, but it's part of who we are.

FISHERYeah, she almost says it's technically bad.

SCHWARZYeah, it's technically bad, but we all know. And it's true, you go to Sinaloa and you will ask a mother, what do you want your son to be? And trafficker comes not far after lawyer and doctor there. It's not exactly the typical Jewish mom.

FISHERAnd yet, so why is that when you also, very effectively show how ineffectual the police and the forensic unit are. They collect enormous amounts of material about each murder, and yet they don't actually arrest anybody. They don't convict anybody. So, if they're so ineffectual, why do people take the side of the bad guys?

SCHWARZThat's kind of exactly why. When you see the cycle -- to make a long story short, we've let, we, both sides of the policy makers, have let the bad guys win for so long. And when you drum up a war, such as the one drummed up in '06, which was, by the way, accepted on this side between two administrations, and paid for and pushed for, yet nobody is brought to justice. When you do that, you are actually making them bigger heroes in the eyes of these youth.

SCHWARZNow, take that and mix it with the situation. Think of, I always like to give this example. Think of a kid in Juarez, 10, 11 years old, sees his family, his mother, his dad working at what's known as a mequiladores, the local factories. Makes an average of five, six, seven dollars a day, works their butt off, I'm sorry, but -- and then you see these traffickers, these young kids. They roll around in their expensive cars, they have the girls in high school saying, these are the bad guys I want to be part of. They have these songs now written about them, basically making them like a subject of Greek mythology.

SCHWARZTo this young kid, when he chooses his options, it kind of becomes quickly apparent why he would take a first step in the wrong way. And this is really the reality. I've seen a lot of people come out and say, how could they celebrate this culture? This is repulsive. This is -- but really, the more time you spend along the border, the more unfortunate you understand that Edgar and Bukanas are really a product of our reality. We've let the status quo, we as -- and we're a huge part of it.

SCHWARZYou know, the money, the guns, they all come from here, the demand. And we've let this...

FISHERBut that doesn't explain why that music and that rebellion is so popular in this country, that why they were able to fill a concert venue in Bladensburg, Maryland. There's not the same kind of rebellion against Mexican authority.

SCHWARZWell, it's a way for Mexican-Americans and Latino (unintelligible) to connect to their heritage, if you will. You know, Pancho Villo is not really what they connect to anymore. They think of a glorified trafficker, as Chapo Guzman as a hero. You know, they hear this constant reality, which, living in this country, they're not so much a part of, and they want to find a way to connect to it. And, if you will, it's a perfect storm, because if you wanted a bad boy music scene, as a Latino, you could go to rap and hip hop scene, but that's predominantly black, and it's kind of water and oil right there.

FISHERSo, there is an analogy to gangster rap.

SCHWARZThere is an analogy. I think the clear analogy is a glorification of outlaws and criminal activity, but what's very different are a couple of things. A, you heard how it sounds. It's quite different. But more interestingly, when you look at the beginning of hip hop and rap, they really started about people rhyming and spitting out and singing about their hustle, their way of getting out of the ghetto, them selling a dime bag, them getting the girls for music. The corridor artist, they don't really rap or sing about their hustle.

SCHWARZInstead, they seek to write songs about high up traffickers. That's what really gives them street creds. And you see this in the film as Edgar meets different traffickers, including a...

FISHEREdgar's a musician and one of the main characters in the film.

FISHERAnd the way it works is he would interview a trafficker, then write up the interview, and write up a song, and present the song back to the trafficker so he could approve, word by word, the lyrics. Then Edgar would get paid, and only then does he record the song. And in that, he really becomes almost a P.R. machine or the courtyard jester, if you will, of a cartel. And that's very different from rap and hip hop.

FISHERLet's go to Shelly in Clarksburg. Shelly, you're on the air.

SHELLYHi.

SCHWARZHi Shelly.

SHELLYHi. You just were talking about the similarities or maybe differences between rap and hip hop and this music here. And that was the first thing that came to my mind at the top of the hour when we started listening. The first thing I thought about was the gangster rap that came into prominence back in the '80s and '90s. And so I don't know if that -- if you saw the same thing in your research, if that -- you know, if you kind of felt the same way.

SCHWARZAgain, I think there are similarities because of the celebration of outlaw. But I think it is very different what the songs tell because they do not tell a personal story but rather cater to, if you will, PRing a trafficker. And there's also this spinoff now because the music scene has gotten so big here, what traffickers particularly like is if they could hire a song writer or a corrido artist to write a song and actually make it a hit in American music. There's nothing more fulfilling.

SCHWARZThat's quite different from...

FISHERThat is a phenomenon I've not seen in any other form of music. You show scene after scene where essentially the drug dealers order up a song. They're made to order songs.

SCHWARZAbsolutely.

FISHERWhich, is there any tradition of that in any other form of music that you know of?

SCHWARZNot that I know of.

FISHEROr Mexican music?

SCHWARZI think that's unique to this scene.

FISHEROkay. When we come back after a short break we'll talk more with Shaul Schwarz about his film "Narco Cultura" and we'll hear a little bit more of the music of the Corridos. This is "The Kojo Nnamdi Show." I'm Marc Fisher.

FISHERWelcome back. I'm Marc Fisher of the Washington Post sitting in for Kojo Nnamdi. And we are talking about the new film "Narco Cultura" with its director Shaul Schwarz, an award-winning photojournalist who's reported on wars around the world. And so from the battlefields of Afghanistan to the streets of Juarez, Mexico, what attracted you to this story? Why do this now?

SCHWARZA couple of things. First, I was in awe that the way my production work is I would fly to El Paso, as you mentioned before, at that time the safest city in the U.S. and literally walk, take 50 steps across a bridge. And there we were in what might've been the deadliest city in the world. And I thought that was shocking. I also thought that at the time I was really being under covered. I was one of the few photojournalists and foreign journalists as a whole that spent time in the city early on.

SCHWARZAnd it really surprised me that we here kind of have -- we've kind of just labeled it as Mexico's drug war. And that's the status quo we're kind of willing to live with. And we're not more interested in the fact that this hell of a war has created -- was our -- with us being such a part of it right here, right on the border. So that was initial kind of come into the project. But I think what really made me want to make it into a film and talk about it is his adaptation of youth really glorifying this culture.

SCHWARZAnd it was less -- I think people now when they see the trail and see the movie they like to blame the musicians. Again, this is how I felt early on but what I really want people to think is how did we get to this place where this youth sees them as heroes.

FISHERYou can find the trailer for "Narco Cultura" on our website, kojoshow.org where you'll also find a slideshow of Shaul Schwarz's photography and some narcocorrido music. That's at kojoshow.org. And let's hear another piece of the corrido music.

FISHERThis is a song called "El Compa 300." What's it about?

SCHWARZWell, the words, the years have passed and I'm a hit man. I work in the line of Chapo and Mayo, the two biggest traffickers in the world perhaps and how I'm alert 24/7 and so on and so on. The song was written by Edgar Quintero, the character in my film, to a true hit man that is actually dead now. That was actually the reason why the scene could make it to the movie. The scene (unintelligible) cartel has many squads of hit men. They're called (unintelligible) commandos basically.

SCHWARZAnd what was really interesting is I wasn't there when initially Edgar was approached by 300 to write this song. Apparently it was after some show. Edgar initially said he did not know who he was but very quickly understood. And for a corrido artist to have such a big gangster, trafficker, killer put trust in him and put out a song is a big deal, beyond the payment...

FISHERSo he gets a wad of hundreds in payment for the song. And the song, I assume, has to be pretty good or maybe he's in some danger himself.

SCHWARZWell, yeah, first of all, you have to kind of okay the song to the satisfaction of your client, if you will. And, mind you, corrido artists have been gunned down in the last year or so. It won't be the first and it won't be the last. But again, this is also how they make money. This also gives them a lot of street cred. And this particular song, this song became quite a hit.

FISHERAnd these are song that -- and this is not some tiny underground subculture we're talking about. This is music you can buy at Wal-Mart.

SCHWARZYeah, Wal-Mart, iTunes, hundreds of clubs across the U.S. This is a fairly popular genre that's constantly growing. The interesting thing here is how the trafficker even gets to sign his name. Both corridos you played, Emmauno is a code name. (unintelligible) the head of Sinaloa cartel's armed division, if you will. Compatesiento (sp?) signs his name. So they're so gutsy about this that they don't even hesitate to sign the name of the creator, if you will, on it.

FISHERLet's hear from Renato (sp?) in Washington. Renato, you're on the air.

RENATOHi. Thank you guys for having me on the show. I had a couple of quick questions to ask.

FISHERGo ahead.

RENATOMy first question is really about where we're listening to violence and death and the imagery of, you know, bloodbath. But I would really like to ask, you know, how important is, you know, traditional indigenous like practices like Dia de los Muertos and even the veneration of La Santa Muerte tie into...

FISHERThe day of the dead, the cult of the dead.

SCHWARZI think the day of the dead is quite separated. Santa Muerte is definitely, in my head at least, a part of "Narco Cultura," of narco culture, if you will, to those who don't know, the saint of death. There's many saints obviously in Mexico. And Santa Muerte is a predominant saint of death which ties in definitely to underground world and traffickers.

SCHWARZYou will encounter slightly in the movie -- it's not the focus of my film, but it's definitely a part of this hemisphere of different effects of traffickers in cartel culture that kind of are becoming pop culture and becoming main stream.

RENATOMy second question is, how much is this like a critique -- a general critique of the Mexican government's ineffectiveness in providing, you know, social mobility for its people in terms of like...

SCHWARZYou know, that's a good question. I kind of went on this film with a promise to -- I've seen other drug film -- drug war films and there've usually been talking heads of experts behind desks. And I come from a photojournalistic background. And I wanted to make sure this story stays raw. And instead of feeding you facts, making you feel, really feel, almost smell how the reality -- how the belly of the beast, if you will, smells like.

SCHWARZSo I think the focus of the film is that. But interestingly enough -- and I enjoy this -- most of the crowds coming out of the Q and As tend to have a very political situation because they feel that this is a reality so disturbing that something has to change. But the film itself is unpolitical, I'd say.

FISHERThere is a powerful scene in the film in which the mother of a murdered man calls out to everyone around her, to her country and says, why don't people shout? Where are the mothers? And the question is never really answered.

SCHWARZThat was amazing. It's not and it's the only time -- the fear that the cartels have installed in the people of Juarez and many other cities is so enormous. It's so overwhelming, and for the right reasons, by the way, that one nearly doesn't speak. Everything is whispers. Even us as this tiny production team of me and my soundman Juan Bertran, we got very -- very quickly we understood that we can't really say what we think. That only -- even knowledge could get us killed.

SCHWARZAnd so even when we'd come back to our room, we'd kind of pump our music -- sometimes corridos, by the way -- and talk behind closed doors. Everybody's so desperate against speaking and so scared. And as you mentioned, Marc, the one scene in the movie there is a moment where a mother of a person who literally got cut up into pieces and found all over town, loses it. And really kind of, I think, says what's on everybody's mind -- hearts and minds in Juarez and really shouts out, what is this? Are we an experimentation of rats? Does nobody care anymore? Are we just at the belly of this war machine? What is going on? Why doesn't anybody do anything? Why doesn't anyone give a damn?

SCHWARZAnd the sad thing about this lady is I tried to get back to her a couple days after and she disappeared. And I was told that because she spoke out, she was quickly advised that she must leave now.

FISHERLet's hear quickly from Noel in Arlington. Noel, you're on the air.

NOELHi there. I wanted to call in and mention that the first time I'd ever seen corrido music appropriately used in American pop culture was on an episode of "Breaking Bad," where there was a theme song dedicated to Heisenberg and his sort of murderous, you know, raids that he had. And I had never seen it before used, you know, heard it in the background but never used so explicitly as that moment.

SCHWARZYeah, it's well done. I think it's Season 2, chapter 7, if I remember correctly. I remember watching that show and it kind of jumping at me. It was late in the post of my film. It's absolutely that. You see there -- you don't see how the corrido's being made over there but you see this glorification. And again, the signing of --which is so common to the big corridos, the signing of a particular trafficker and what he's famous for. And in "Breaking Bad," it's obviously the blue meth.

FISHERWe've just a little bit of time left. Thanks for the call, Noel.

NOELThank you.

FISHERIs there -- what was it like filming this in Mexico in this incredibly dangerous environment? Were there times you were hanging out with people who were going to visit the dealers and...

SCHWARZIt was tricky. I guess being in dangerous places is a little bit in my DNA. I have been a photojournalist for a long time. What was different about this conflict, you know, different than in Afghanistan or in Israel where I've embedded and been a lot with armies is this idea that knowledge could kill. To our understanding as a journalist, what you always want to do is keep your eyes and ears open. In Mexico, essentially you don't -- you would see the litter, meaning the bodies of spread out but you wouldn't see the action, if you will, as much as you will in other conflicts I cover.

SCHWARZBut you cannot trust anybody, was our guiding lights. Even within the unit we followed, we do not know who is (word?), a spotter for the cartel. We always thought that there -- in our hotel, in the 7-Eleven downstairs. And that really quickly isolates you into a real culture of fear. And in that way the cartels are successful and it works towards journalists. And local journalists are oftenly (sic) hit so...

FISHERShaul Schwarz is an award-winning photojournalist whose new documentary is called "Narco Cultura." And it opens at the West End Cinema in Washington on December 6. Thanks so much for being here.

SCHWARZThank you.

FISHERWhen we come back after a short break, another story of war. This time World War I and a graphic representation of that and the author Joe Sacco.