MR. KOJO NNAMDIMarch Madness may make you a dollar or two this spring, betting on the NCAA basketball tournament is a bona fide workplace pastime in the United States. But college basketball's biggest event, which enters its final round next weekend, is a billion-dollar industry for the people behind it. People behind it, being the key part of that sentence. The athletes playing the games won't see a penny of the 14-year $11 billion deal the NCAA has with CBS to broadcast these games.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIOne player at Kansas State University was suspended hours before a game earlier this month for allegedly taking $200 from his former amateur athletic union coach, money that the coach says he gave him so he could buy groceries for his mother. Now a small group of athletes is organizing to challenge the status quo, where administrators, coaches and college presidents make millions and the players are required to compete as, quoting here, "amateurs."

MR. KOJO NNAMDISports writer Dave Zirin says there's a historic moment waiting for any jock for justice willing to grasp it. But that such a move might require the same sacrifices as those taken by the athletes who use the 1968 Olympics as a venue to protest for social justice. Dave Zirin joins us in studio. He's the sports editor at the Nation. He's written several books, including his most recent with John Carlos, "The John Carlos Story: The Sports Moment that Changed the World." Dave Zirin, thank you for joining us.

MR. DAVE ZIRINOh, great to be here, Kojo.

NNAMDIThe NCAA tournament's biggest weekend, the final four is all set. The final four will take place in New Orleans on Saturday. And if played your office pool well enough, you just might stand to make a buck or two which would be a buck or two more than the athletes who are playing in the games are going to make off of them. You wrote recently about a player at Kansas State who was suspended hours before a crucial game for allegedly taking $200. What happened with Jamar Samuels and why did you find his story to be so compelling?

ZIRINWow. One reason is that he's a local guy. He's from D.C., Jamar Samuels is. And so I knew about him here in high school. The second part about it that hit me so hard is that Jamar Samuels was a senior. And so, this was the last possible game of his collegiate career. The third thing that really struck me was that he was playing for a Kansas state team that looked like it had real potential to be story to watch throughout the tournament.

ZIRINIn their opening round game, they have a wonderful young player named Angel Rodriguez who the opposing team's band, Southern Mississippi's band, chanted where is your green card at Angel Rodriguez. And now the team really came together and said, you know what, we are against racism. Angel Rodriguez is our brother. We are going to stick together. So, you know, I was on that like a rocket. I was like, this is an amazing story.

ZIRINLook at this Kansas state team coming together and doing this. Look at Jamar Samuels from D.C., the starting center. And then the next thing you know, you find out that Jamar, who also was the heart and soul of that team in so many ways isn't allowed to take the court and didn't even get the final word on that until 20 minutes before tip-off. And it just seemed so manifestly unfair to me as his coach here in -- he was AAU coach right here in D.C. said, Curtis Malone.

NNAMDIMalone.

ZIRINYeah, he said, look, if I had wanted to give him the $200 surreptitiously and not be caught, that could have been arranged. But I didn't think there was anything wrong with it. I'm friends with his mother. I'm friends with him. They needed groceries. I wanted to help. And when you juxtapose that, as you did, Kojo, with the money that the NCAA brings in, not to mention the mention that Samuels' own coach makes from his Nike shoe deal alone.

ZIRINNow let's think about this for a second, his coach Frank Martin. Frank Martin doesn't wear a swoosh on the court. Frank Martin, unless he has tattoos I don't know about, does not have one on his body. Yet he gets paid hundreds of thousands of dollars every year from Nike. It's a multimillion dollar contract because of his players being walking, talking, jumping advertisements for the swoosh as they go up and down the court. And I'm glad that Nike is giving them that money. I'm glad it's going to the athletic department. But I think it violates the most basic notions of fairness that the athletes don't see anything for that.

NNAMDIIf you'd like to join the conversation, how do you feel about the idea of college athletes getting paid, but do you think the NCAA gets from maintaining its requirements that its players be amateurs? Call us at 800-433-8850 or send us a tweet @kojoshow. Before we go any further, we should point out that NCAA basketball tournament is the cash cow for the NCAA as an organization as a whole. It controls the TV contract for the event.

NNAMDIWhen it comes to football, a group of schools took the NCAA to the Supreme Court some decades ago for the right to negotiate their own television contracts. What prevents the basketball schools from doing the same thing, kicking out the middle man?

ZIRINMm-hmm. Now there's a lot of talk among the basketball schools. John Calipari who was one of the final four coaches this week, he describe the NCAA as a dead man walking as he thinks that as an organization and as an institution it's outlived its purpose. The problem with that, though, is that the NCAA does control the keys to the kingdom at this point. They're the ones who negotiated the TV contract. The TV contract is going on for another, wow, I mean, another decade. And so that...

NNAMDITwelve years.

ZIRINYeah, 12 years. So this is what it's going to be for the foreseeable future. And that is a shame, because the NCAA as an institution, its job is to police the athletes and effectively to keep the trains running on time. Their president, Mark Emmert, makes roughly -- we don't know for sure because he won't admit to it, but people believe he makes over $2 million a year. We do know for a fact he has 14 vice presidents, 14. Each of whom make at least $400,000 a year.

ZIRINAnd they're in charge of keeping the institution afloat. And institution that benefits them at the expense of players. That's why I get upset sometimes when you have these scandals at places like the University of Miami or Ohio State and people say, the NCAA needs to go in there and issue harsh judgments on these programs. But there's no moral authority. And all it does is really legitimize them as a moral institution when they practice an amoral business operation.

ZIRINI liken it to calling on the Sopranos to take care of the neighborhood drug dealer. It's like, have you really made your neighborhood safer by making the Sopranos stronger?

NNAMDIYou mentioned he's got 14 assistants. Seems like every college coach now has 14 assistants, but that's...

ZIRINThat's huge, yes.

NNAMDI...another story there.

ZIRINYes.

NNAMDIAthletes playing next weekend, like Kentucky's Anthony Davis who would be playing professional basketball if only they were allowed to do so. But the NBA requires players to essentially wait a year after their high school graduation before they can play. And athletes like Davis are basically funneled colleges for just a year where they don't make any money. Tennis players, baseball players, soccer players, lots of them go pro as teenagers.

ZIRINYou have golfers, of course.

NNAMDIWhy is it that when it comes to football and basketball, rules are different?

ZIRINThat's a great question. We could also throw in issues of, like, think about child actors from Jodie Foster to "The Hunger Games" star Jennifer Lawrence about actors who go to school but also are able to apply their trade. Or look at a sport like hockey where you can be called up to the NHL in the middle of a college season. You can have an agent as a college player. And so you ask this question, why is it that it's just the NFL and the NBA where you cannot play as an 18-year-old where you need to do this year in college.

ZIRINAnd the answer has to do with the fact that these are the revenue-producing sports and that our colleges have effectively become minor leagues for these sports that allows the individual players to build their brand, so to speak, their name recognition before going pro. It allows them to have an apprenticeship or, if you will, where they're able to be taught the game before going pro. But more than anything else, it allows for the coffers of the NCAA to be filled.

ZIRINI have to tell you this one statistic because it says so much about the problem because I root the problem as much with college presidents as I do it the NCAA. The college presidents of the Division I schools in this country, they're like people who go to an AA meeting where there's an open bar. It's like they complain all the time about the money that goes to college sports, but at the same time they're addicted to it.

ZIRINI have to tell you the statistic, this is from Sports Illustrated, it's too good for words. Seventy-five percent of college presidents believe that schools spend too much money in resources on athletics but only 14 percent think their school spends too much on college athletics. So you see what you have here is this incredible system of denial where everybody's an addict and everybody's pointing the finger.

NNAMDIYou know, and this is cutting to the chase here before we get to the telephones, that there's a group of athletes organizing under the banner of the National College Players Association. Who are they and what are they trying to change?

ZIRINThey are a very new organization that is made up of former college athletes. They are the ones who started it. And what they're doing right now is just getting current college athletes to be able to sign basically membership cards to say that they want change, that they want a real stipend. Basically to be treated more like university employees than so-called an them this fiction of the student athlete.

ZIRINAs Lauren Proffit (sp?) my friend, former University of Maryland star said, we were never student athletes, we were athlete students. Because as soon as we came on the campus, it was clear what we had to do and what our priorities were supposed to be. And they've had a remarkable amount of success, the National Collegiate Players Association. They've gotten, for example, the entire football and basketball team at UCLA to sign up and say we're for this.

ZIRINAnd it's an initial step because I got to tell you, there's no way that this system can continue if the players themselves rebel against it. This isn't something that's going to be changed because loud mouth sports writers speak out about it. This isn't something that's going to change because fans start picketing outside of arenas. It's going to change because the players themselves look at this and take stance and frankly, risk everything to be able to say this is a broader system that's unjust.

NNAMDIOnto the telephones now. Here is Emmanuel in Crofton, Md. Emmanuel, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

EMMANUELYes. Thank you for taking my call, Kojo. My statements are this. I think that the predators are the NCAA and the individuals who want it, and the prey unfortunately are young African-American black men, primarily. I realize that there's others who participate in college sports who are not, but for the most part, that's why they're able to excel in what they do, speaking of the NCAA, is because of who they're targeting when it comes to their main product, And those young men, they, you know, they like the limelight, the need the exposure to go to the next level, and it's hard for them to rebel.

EMMANUELSo I do think like your guest that when one does come along, not at a talent level as a Mohammad Ali, but with the mentality of someone like Mohammad Ali or Jim Brown that protests I think some leeway with what gets done in that league. My question for your guest is, is how is it that the NBA is able to able to establish relationships with European players at 17 years old like Ricky Rubio? Isn't that almost like, you know, the same thing that they're advocating against here in America?

ZIRINMm-hmm. Yes. I mean, by asking the question, you answer it. I mean, there are specific U.S. labor by-laws that it's not just the National Basketball Association, but Major League Baseball for example has connections with Dominican kids who are under 15 years old, as far as getting them in their particular pipeline, and this is part of the byproduct of the globalization of sports, which I think people will find a similar echo in the globalization of the economy is that there are laws in the United States that are seen as very expendable once you get outside the U.S.'s borders, and I think that the NBA practices a deep and fundamental hypocrisy in having one relationship with European and South American and East Asian ball players, and another one with U.S. players.

NNAMDIEmmanuel, thank you very much for your call. We've got to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue this conversation with Dave Zirin about an organization that is emerging to represent student athletes, basketball players in particular. You can still call us at 800-433-8850. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to conversation with Dave Zirin. He's the sports editor at the Nation. He's written several books, including his most recent book with John Carlos, "The John Carlos Story: The Sports Moment That Changed the World," and I'm gonna incorporate John Carlos into this question. What do you think are the realistic expectations for the group of people we're talking about, the National College Players' Association. It seems like organizing a group of students at this level is a Herculean task.

ZIRINMm-hmm.

NNAMDIThey're moving targets. They're new students. They're coming in and out every year, but what John Carlos and Tommy Smith in 1968 at the Olympics drew a lot of attention to what was a much broader cause of...

ZIRINMm-hmm.

NNAMDI...civil rights and the injustices that were done to African Americans in this country. This organization would have a much more specific objective. What do you think that this organization can do given that it's composed of people who come from levels of society that are not seen as being powerful.

ZIRINExactly. I mean, it's interesting about Tommy Smith and John Carlos, because they did have big objectives. They also had some small ball objectives like let's hire more African-American assistant track coaches, let's get South Africa and Rhodesia disinvited from the Olympics, so very specific Olympic questions, and I think in this case as well, there are very specific questions like why shouldn't scholarships be for four years for example, a very basic one.

ZIRINOr why shouldn't some of that shoe money, for example, or video game money where your likeness is on a video screen and you don't see anything for that, I mean, that violates every notion of fairness. Why can't at the very least if you don't want us to get paid now, put that money aside because it's effectively money that we're earning. I think that there's a bit of a contradiction here, or like because while you're absolutely right that this is a powerless group in many respects, they're moving targets, is a very good way to put it, especially the best players who are usually so-called one and done, in one year and then out, and they don't want to risk anything for themselves.

ZIRINBut at the same time, the labor power that the best players have is mighty. I mean, take next weekend, you've got the Final Four. As you said, it is a $10.8 billion operation in TV money alone. That's not even with all the other bells and whistles. What would happen if the two best players on each team walked out to center court and took off their sneakers and said, we're not gonna play unless we negotiate first. I mean, what would happen? I mean, they would effectively be holding this mammoth operation hostage to their sense of justice.

NNAMDII beg to quibble.

ZIRINPlease.

NNAMDIWhat Tommy Smith and John Carlos did, was done after they had accomplished victory. Would it be more effective if the two best players on the winning team, after the NCAA championship, when there was all of the celebration and all of the lights and all of the interviews, then took off their shoes and said, we are doing this because we -- because if they do it before and then they don't play well, it's not going to go very well.

ZIRINNo. That's an interesting question. This is my own -- I think that the reason why you're even talking about Smith and Carlos is that it was this perfect marriage of movement and moment. As John Carlos says to me, if I had raised my fist in front of the Apollo Theater, no one would have cared. And it was a different world in '68. Today we live in a much more culture that's prone to have little shocks. People say outrageous things on Twitter. People make big statements and we're all culturally kind of like kittens who are chasing around a laser pointer.

ZIRINAnd so my fear would be if what happened-- what you suggested of people doing it afterwards, it would be a news cycle story and then people would move on because that's the way our culture is wired today. I think if it happened before the game it would be more in the Smith-Carlos tradition because the key to what Smith and Carlos did is that it made people angry, and I think if people did that, the boos would come, and I think that's a part of it, is like showing the world just how for lack of a better term, barbaric the set up is where you'll have all of these well-heeled fans, booing these young men for daring to say brother can you spare a dime.

NNAMDIOn to the telephones. A lot of people would like to address this issue. We'll start with Matt in Fairfax, Va. Matt, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MATTThanks, Kojo. I think there was time years ago when you could say that a four-year scholarship was equal to what the university was getting out it, and that time is so long past. The money that's made is incredibly different than what the players are getting. And such a small percentage of these players go on to make the big professional money, the NCAA runs their own commercial where they say most of us are going pro in something else, and, you know, now they run a commercial where Enterprise employs so many of their employees.

MATTI think the reality is it's not being (unintelligible) . I think everybody knows that, but there isn't the right kind of protest to bring it to a halt.

NNAMDIOkay. And what do you think about the protest that Zirin suggests?

MATTI think it would have to happen before. I think nobody would care if it happened afterwards because they've already gotten what they wanted which was people to sit and watch the competition and it would just move onto the next group of players. I don't think it would be effective afterwards.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you, Matt, for your call. We move onto...

ZIRINSee, Matt's a new-age thinker.

NNAMDII'm just saying. We move onto Mark in Gaithersburg, Md. Mark, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MARKHi, guys. Hey, I just wanted to say thank you to your guest, as well as to you Kojo for talking about a subject that's near and dear to my heart. I am a huge Ohio State Buckeyes fan, and I have been seething for over a year now after the Tattoo Five instance where five players were suspended from the Ohio State football program for selling their own trinkets...

ZIRINMm-hmm.

MARK...after being student athletes. And the fact that the coach lost his job as well, because he didn't reveal this information, just shows you that degree of slavery-like institution that the NCAA has put together, and I think you're right. I think everything that you've said today captures it perfectly. I could not have said it better myself, so I want to thank you. I think you're totally right. If these players got together this weekend, particularly the Ohio State basketball team, and went out to mid court, took off the sneakers and the uniforms and walked off the court and left the NCAA holding the bag, it would stop this garbage today.

MARKThe problem is, is with people like me who are fans of both basketball and football, we keep consuming, so therefore, the NCAA keeps living, and so I have to make it a point for myself and others that are listening to this topic, to stop participating and supporting the NCAA. It's gotta stop today. Thank God...

ZIRINWell, thank you. Great call. May I respond?

NNAMDIPlease do.

ZIRINOn two points. The first is that, I mean, there is something we can do. I mean, if people I think should donate to the National Collegiate Players Association. I'm not employed by them, no one asked me to say that, but I think it's like, we have to understand that this is the players' fight, and so building their capacity to be able to do it is, I think the best way to go, and you mentioned Ohio State, and I want to link that to what the previous caller said about the value of the scholarship being commensurate with being paid, how that has changed over time.

ZIRINThe legendary Ohio State football coach, Woody Hayes, at his peak in the late 1970s, made $42,000 a year, 42 grand. As I'm sure you know, their new coach, Urban Meyer is gonna make baseline $4 million a year. So the money has gotten out of control, the fandom has gotten out of control. The only thing that's still the same and in control is the players themselves.

NNAMDIWhen you look around college basketball, are there any coaches who have spoken out about these kinds of things? There's certainly a lot of coaches roaming the sidelines wearing pins from Nike and Reebok.

ZIRINWell, a coach who, I'm sure, is near and dear to your listener's hearts is Steve Spurrier, and he's not exactly Mr. Popularity here in D.C. because of his tenure coaching our professional football team, but I will say, as the coach of the University of South Carolina, he has in his time there, both spoken out against the confederate flag, which is pretty gutsy no matter who you are.

NNAMDIIn South Carolina it is.

ZIRINIn South Carolina. And yeah, not here. And he has said that players need to get paid and players need to get compensated, and I think so for him you give a lot of credit for doing. John Calipari as well, credit to him for saying a lot about this, but number one credit has to go to a former coach, because I just interviewed him and he's amazing, and that's Dale Brown, who is the coach at Louisiana State. He was Shaquille O'Neal's coach there. He says that the NCAA, quote, "legislatives against human dignity," and I can't think of any other better way to put it.

NNAMDIHere's Evan in Cabin John, Md. Evan, your turn.

EVANWell, Kojo, thanks for the show and thanks for having Dave on, because if he didn't exist, we'd have to invent him.

NNAMDIActually, wait a minute. Actually, we did invent him.

EVANYes. And thank you for inventing him, Kojo. You're like Al Gore and the Internet.

NNAMDIThank you. Appreciate it.

EVANBut, you know, there's so much hypocrisy in the NCAA and it's all driven by greed, and what I thought about this too is how can we drive forward this -- something for the college kids, the student athletes, and on idea I had was that it's required that some of the money from the shoes and the games and the TV revenues goes into a health insurance find, some sort of pension fund, so, you know, because a lot of these kids play and they never go onto the pros, and that would be a way of, you know, spreading the benefit to all these kids that are making the sacrifice because, you know, Division 1 sports is like a grind, and they still are supposed to get good grades and stuff, you know...

ZIRINThat's a great idea.

EVANYeah. Something like that would be -- it's a lot cleaner way to do it, and it's kind of harder to oppose, where if we talk about paying them directly they'll just throw mud at that, you know, forever, and I'm afraid nothing will get done.

ZIRINLook, can I say why that's a great idea?

NNAMDIYes, please.

ZIRINBecause the whole reason why -- and Taylor Branch, the great biographer of Martin Luther King, wrote about this. The whole reason why the term student athlete even exists is that it was a legal term conjured up by the NCAA as a way of denying NCAA players workmen's right benefits, or workmen's compensation, and they came up with it after a Supreme Court case after a college football player was paralyzed, and they said, well, no, no, we don't owe him health insurance. We don't owe him benefits. He's not a school employee, he is a student athlete and therefore not eligible for those same protections.

NNAMDIWell, the term student athlete is taken literally by some people. We got an email from Keith in Silver Spring who said, "They're kids going to college. The only thing these kids should expect is an education."

ZIRINI think he's talking about a small Division 3 school in Iowa, like a Grinnell or something. Like, he's not talking about -- see, statements like that don't fit with the reality of what it means to play Division 1. I wish Keith could have the opportunity to just ask one question of a Division 1 athlete, particularly in the revenue-producing sports of basketball and football, and that should be, tell me what a typical day for you is like. Just ask that question, and then see if you can ever say again they're students who happen to play sports.

NNAMDIHere is Joe in Chantilly, Va. Joe, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOEHi, Kojo. Thanks for taking my call. Hey, I just wanted to say, I really appreciate your guest. I had a daughter who played four years of college basketball. In fact, this was her last year, and the amount of work they put in...

ZIRINMm-hmm.

JOE...the lack of regard by the athletic departments and coaches for their academics in many cases, is astounding to me. I mean, she's a biology major, you know, because of pre-med, and that's, I mean, it was almost impossible for her to, you know to continue, but she did. I have a lot of respect for her.

NNAMDIAlmost impossible for her to continue not playing, but studying?

JOEYes. I mean, she -- yeah. She played at studied. I mean, she did both for four years. I'm just amazed that she was able to do that considering the amount of work they put in, you know. And one thing I want to say is, you know, when you're a college athlete it's all year round.

ZIRINMm-hmm.

JOEYou don't have the time for a part-time job. These kids don't get any spending money, there's, you know, they need a stipend, you know. I'm an Ohio State alum also, and so like one of the previous callers, I'm also, you know, irritated by the, you know, the Tattoo Five scandal with the Ohio State players, because I know what they go through as, you know, having had a daughter.

ZIRINMm-hmm.

NNAMDII'm afraid...

JOELuckily, she's got a dad that could send her a few bucks every month, but most of these kids don't.

NNAMDII'm afraid we're just about out of time. Dave Zirin, in 20 seconds or less, what do you think of the realistic expectations for the National College Players Association?

ZIRINWell, first of all, terrific calls, and I think that the expectations for them should be sky high because the sheer number of scandals in the NCAA means you're talking about a system that could be collapsing under its own weight.

NNAMDIDave Zirin is sports editor at the Nation. He's written several books including his most recent with John Carlos, "The John Carlos Story: The Sports Moment That Changed the World." I'm Kojo Nnamdi. "The Kojo Nnamdi Show" is produced by Brendan Sweeney, Michael Martinez, Ingalisa Schrobsdorff and Tayla Burney, with help from Kathy Goldgeier and Elizabeth Weinstein. The managing producer is Diane Vogel.

NNAMDIThe engineers are Andrew Chadwick, Timmy Olmstead, and Kellan Quigley. A.C. Valdez is on the phones. Podcasts of all shows, audio archives, CDs and free transcripts are available at our website, kojoshow.org. To share questions or comments with us, email kojo@wamu.org, join us on Facebook, or send a tweet to @kojoshow. Thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.