MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, Your Turn on Occupy D.C. and the occupy movement's two-month anniversary. But first, when it comes to the debate over the District's Central Library, one man's architectural masterpiece is another's albatross around the city's neck.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIFor the past four decades, D.C.'s main library has been located downtown, in the city's only building designed by the legendary architect Mies Van Der Rohe. During the past several years, the city has undertaken a neighborhood library renaissance, building gleaming new branches from Tenleytown to Shaw, but the central Martin Luther King Library is suffering. Administrators argue that it's too small, too difficult to maintain, that replacing a window can run up costs more than $15,000.

MR. KOJO NNAMDISo they've brought together an outside panel this week to come up with recommendations for the rehabilitation and redevelopment of the Central Library. The building itself, which has historic preservation status, won't be going anywhere, but the wheels could be in motion for the Central Library to move out of its current location and into a different downtown facility. Joining us in studio to talk about this is Ginnie Cooper, chief librarian for the District of Columbia. Ginnie Cooper, good to see you. Thanks for joining us.

MS. GINNIE COOPERVery glad to be here.

NNAMDIAlso with us in studio is Wayne Ratkovich, chair of The Urban Land Institute's Advisory Services Panel for the Martin Luther King Library. He's also a life trustee of The Urban Land Institute and the founder and president of The Ratkovich Company, TRC, which is a Los Angeles-based development company. Wayne Ratkovich, thank you for joining us.

MR. WAYNE RATKOVICHIt's a pleasure to be here.

NNAMDIIt's a conversation that you, too, can join by calling 800-433-8859. Do you think it's worth it for the city to remain wedded to the building that currently houses the Martin Luther King Library? 800-433-8850. Ginnie Cooper, the city has been here before. It was only a few years ago that Mayor Anthony Williams started a conversation about building a new Central Library facility on the grounds of the old convention center.

NNAMDIBut here we are, waiting for the recommendations of the panel you have convened this week. What compelled you to call for this evaluation, and what questions are you asking this panel to find answers to?

COOPERThere really are some assumptions already made, and one of them is that there will be a Central Library and that it will be downtown or centrally located. In fact, it might even stay in that building, perhaps not in all of that building. And we really are trying to start a conversation. You're right, Kojo. It was several years ago when this issue was debated politically. It really hasn't been much discussed in the last five years or so when we've been working on neighborhood libraries. That work continues. But if we're ever going to do something about that building, we begin to talk about it now.

NNAMDIBefore we go any further, I'm sure a lot of people are going to point out that the building is a historically significant piece of architecture. But, as I understand it, we need to be clear about this. No one is talking about junking the building because it does have historic preservation status. What can you tell us about how this process will affect the future of the building?

COOPERWell, I don't know. I don't know yet what the panel will be recommending. And then, of course, I don't know what our community that cares so much about libraries and about that building as well, or our political leaders, will decide to do next. So we really don't have an answer to that question.

NNAMDIIn what ways would you say the building fails the system right now as a central library? What are the weaknesses of this building as a facility, a central facility for the library system?

COOPERWell, there are a number, and they're also about the age of the building. It is, as you mentioned, 40 years old next year. The heating system is inadequate. We have one handicap restroom for men in the building, and that's all. Our 11 elevators are old and need to be replaced. We have stairwells that are not welcoming, not friendly and not easy to even find. We also don't have enough electrical service. We don't have the easy ability, because of the asbestos in the building, to use technology as we are now using it at the library. I could go on and on.

NNAMDII noticed.

COOPERYou want me to?

NNAMDINo. We may have to come back to that issue later. Wayne Ratkovich, before we get into the details of your process here, there was some grumbling before you even started, people who complained that the panel was comprised of outsiders, that the future of the library was being put in the hands of people who don't even live in the city. But it's my understanding that a panel of outsiders was something you deliberately put together. Why did you find that important to do?

RATKOVICHThe Urban Land Institute, Kojo, has been doing a panel for now 65 years, and it has always been a principle of those panels that the people who volunteer their time and serve in those panels must come from outside the city where the project is. And the purpose of that is twofold, one is to avoid absolutely any conflict of interest, that none of the panel members have any business interest in the city, in this case, Washington, D.C.

RATKOVICHThe second reason for that is we interview, talk to a lot of people. Yesterday, we talked to 70 in one day. And as we go through and gather information, we want people to be candid with us, to be forthright. And it's much easier when they are dealing with people who will not be around next week or next month, and those words that we receive stay with us.

NNAMDILet's see if that answers the question that Kate in Washington, D.C. seems to have. Don your headphones, please. Here is Kate. You're on the air. Go ahead, please, Kate.

KATEHi there. How are you? This is -- what is the gentleman's name that just made the statement?

NNAMDIWayne Ratkovich -- Ratkovich.

KATEMr. Ratkovich. Is it Ratkovich?

NNAMDIRatkovich.

KATEOkay, Ratkovich. Sir, let me give you what an old journalism saying goes like. It says, tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them and then tell them what you told them. That is a rule that will serve you well for years. For what you just said, that was one of the most explicit, wonderful, make-sense statements that I've heard in a long time. However, that statement was not made in advance so that people in the District understood it.

KATEPeople in the District are often treated as though they're like orphans because of Capitol Hill and all these other things that hold sway and rule over the District. So it would have been very nice to say to the District, people, let me explain to you why we are not having someone from the District on the panel.

NNAMDIAnd...

KATEIt is because of just what you just said.

NNAMDIAnd, Kathleen, thank you very much for your call because we will now go on to explain, or have Wayne Ratkovich explain, how the process works. Now that we've gotten that part of it out of the way, how would you describe the process that your team planned to follow going into their evaluation this week?

RATKOVICHWell, I appreciate the comment that was just made, and it's a good thought that she conveyed to us. We start by having the eight members. This team -- this panel consists of eight members. They arrive here Sunday afternoon. We met that evening with the sponsors, with Ginnie on the library group, and begin to receive input at that time. On Monday, the next day, was a touring day.

RATKOVICHWe toured the library. We toured the building. We toured the area surrounding the building. We just get at a lot of information on the site and its surroundings. All of this is a follow-up to the briefing book which we received in advance of arriving here. On Tuesday, we break into four teams, and every hour, for eight hours, we conduct interviews. And that's when we got the 70 interviews, from people in all walks of life, with all points of view.

RATKOVICHSo that we are sure that we are covering everything and we get an enormous amount of input, we spend a good deal of time at lunches and dinners, sharing that information with one another, not with anybody else, but with the panel members. Wednesday and Thursday, today, are the days that we prepare the final report, and that will be done tomorrow, Friday morning, at a public hearing, a public event at the library. And it will be presented in summary form in a PowerPoint presentation, and that will be followed by a written report, which will be available within 60 days following the report.

NNAMDIWe're talking about the future of the building that now houses D.C.'s Central Library with Wayne Ratkovich -- he is chair of The Urban Land Institute's Advisory Services Panel for the Martin Luther King Library -- and Ginnie Cooper, chief librarian for the District of Columbia. You can call us at 800-433-8850. Are you a regular user of the Martin Luther King Library in downtown Washington?

NNAMDIHow satisfied are you with the facility? And what would you change about it if you could? 800-433-8850. You can also go to our website, kojoshow.org, send us email to kojo@wamu.org, or a tweet, @kojoshow. It's your choice. Wayne Ratkovich, to be clear, what were the specific scenarios you've been tasked with studying the potential for staying the building, the potential for finding another space? What goes into this?

RATKOVICHWell, we were...

NNAMDIOr all of the above?

RATKOVICHThere is a list. But the fundamental issue that Ginnie has asked us to address is one of two scenarios, where the building becomes a building that is shared with another tenant and that the income from that tenant would help support the needed improvements to the building. So there would be a co-tenancy arrangement. The second alternative is one in which the library would vacate entirely to a new facility, a new Martin Luther King Library, to be constructed somewhere in the downtown area.

RATKOVICHAnd the building would be sold to a new user. We about -- we are in the process of evaluating those two alternatives, both functionally and financially. And, tomorrow morning, we will be completed with that, and we'll present the findings. It's not a case of us recommending one or the other, but basically analyzing both and comparing the results of that analysis.

NNAMDIHas a team from The Urban Land Institute ever studied a similar situation involving a historically significant public building in a dense area like this one?

RATKOVICHYes, they have. There's a total, I think, Kojo, about 600 panels that have been held across the country and, in fact, some of them outside the country. And, yes, there have been historic buildings. Every situation is unique, as this one is. And, here, you have a building that is historic because of architectural reasons, primarily. There are oftentimes there are buildings that are historic because what has taken place within them.

RATKOVICHSo, yes, we've had panels on all of them, and federal buildings, including the Terminal Annex Building in Los Angeles, California, was one. So, yes -- Union Station in Los Angeles, I remember as well. So, yes, there are many of them.

NNAMDIGinnie Cooper, the system has spent so much energy during the past several years revitalizing the neighborhood branches. We've got a brand-spanking-new library open just down the street from this studio, here in Tenleytown. But what would you say is the significance of the Central Library to the rest of the system? What's your vision for what the Central Library should and could be?

COOPERThe Central Library should really be the heart of the system. It really should be that beacon that everybody in the system knows they can come to when what they want is something perhaps beyond the scope of a neighborhood library. That might mean books or other resources. It might be special programs. It might be training, computer-technology training that might not be available every place, maybe a specialized training.

COOPERI'll give you some examples. We have programs. We did a really wonderful -- everybody reads with the other Westmore, and we had several hundred people attending that meeting at the MLK Library. We wouldn't really have room for a program as large as that one was at any of our neighborhood libraries. I hope that we'll have that library some day.

NNAMDIDo the budgetary constraints that have forced you to tweak weekend hours at the neighborhood branches make it any more urgent to maintain a vibrant central library?

COOPERBoy, you've said it exactly correct. Now, the only place in the District where you can find library services and computer access -- do you know we're the largest supplier of free Internet access in the District?

NNAMDII know that.

COOPERGood. Good for you -- is now the central library on Sunday afternoons because we have so many materials there, such an abundance of staff and so many computers. That's really a critical reason.

NNAMDIWe're going to take a short break. If you have already called, stay on the line. We will get to your calls. We're talking about the future of the building, the -- that now houses the MLK Library in downtown Washington, taking your calls at 800-433-8850. How would you describe the importance of a Central Library to Washington? And how do you think the MLK Library currently serves the city in that way? You can also send email to kojo@wamu.org, a tweet, @kojoshow, or go to our website, kojoshow.org, and ask a question, or make your comment there. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWe're discussing the future of the building that houses the Central Library of the District of Columbia, the Martin Luther King Library, with Ginnie Cooper, chief librarian for the District of Columbia, and Wayne Ratkovich, chair of the Urban Land Institute's Advisory Services Panel for the Martin Luther King Library. Taking your calls at 800-433-8850, we'll start with Joe in Washington, D.C. Joe, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOEHi there. I work downtown, and I probably visit the MLK Library once or twice a week. It's got an amazing collection of books. It's got a wonderful staff. But I'd say the one thing that a library needs to survive, and one of the things it needs to be resourced to, are not just adult individuals like myself, but with families and especially children. And I sometimes don't even feel safe myself in that library. It's a de facto, homeless shelter, unfortunately.

JOEAnd I would probably never bring my children into that library. I've been and -- by some of the homeless population that take up residence during the day in the library when some of the homeless shelters downtown, you know, force them a lot in the streets. So I'm wondering if, indeed, it were to remain a Central Library -- I hope it does -- what measures is the library going to take to deal with that issue?

NNAMDIGinnie Cooper, all one has to do is look inside and around the MLK Library to notice that it also doubles as a gathering place, a shelter of sorts for the city's homeless population. Is that something that you consider when you evaluate how the Central Library serves this community? It's obviously a concern of Joe and, I'm assuming, of other people as well.

COOPERYes. And it is an issue, and I'll tell you the way to solve that issue is less about our customers without homes somehow going somewhere else, although we are looking at whether we should always be the drop-off and pick-up point for the shelters morning and evening. But, in truth, what really would solve that problem is many, many more people like Joe using the library. So, for example, if you go to the library now -- different from five years ago when I first came -- you see lots of people, Joe and his colleagues at work and many others using the library, too.

COOPERAnd, yes, our customers without homes are there. We require that they behave in specific ways -- that they not bathe in the restrooms, that they not nap at the tables -- but it's their library, too. And they are very welcome, and it's that abundance of other people that adds the activity and the life and the eyes and the safety, together with our security folks and the cameras in many places, to make that a safe place. Many families do use that facility.

COOPERIn fact, as we've seen the downtown area change and more families moving in, especially very young children are very often either with daycare centers or with their parents at our second floor children's area.

NNAMDISpeaking of the second floor children's area, here is -- and, Joe, thank you for your call -- Taleb (sp?) in Washington, who, I think, would like to address that. Taleb, your turn.

TALEBAbsolutely. I want to, first of all, commend Ms. Mary, who is the librarian in the second floor children's area along with Ms. Ebony, both of whom we visited yesterday along with my son, Aquil. (sp?) We visit the library almost weekly. And as a family lawyer, I know that the library is designated by the court, oftentimes, as pick-up and exchange points for parents in family law matters and custody matters.

TALEBAnd I only would say that it has been my experience, as someone who was raised by my mother in the library, basically, visiting the library and working on science projects using the library, that it may behoove the panelists to look at perhaps better usage -- uses of the children's section. Perhaps, that needs to be on that first floor as opposed to the second floor. We use some of those dungeon-like stairs to traverse up to the second floor, oftentimes, when the elevators were not working.

TALEBAnd I do also commend you for sticking up for the homeless population, which absolutely has the right to utilize the library as well. My only question is what work is the panel going to be undertaking or has -- have they undertaken to ensure that both important segments, children as well as the homeless populations, are well served? And, again thanks, Kojo, for (unintelligible).

NNAMDIWell, Taleb, one of the possibilities that Wayne Ratkovich and the panel have been looking at and studying is repurposing the current Central Library for mixed-use. Wayne, what are elements you would use to evaluate that kind of project?

RATKOVICHWell, we're doing two things, Kojo. One is we are -- we have three -- we have two professional architects and one student intern on the panel. And those folks are looking at ways in which the building might be shared with another occupant, where we can deal with the historic issues associated with the building, how we'd access the building, how we'd share it with the library. And we'll be presenting some of those plans in the final report, and that'll be done tomorrow morning.

NNAMDISo you...

RATKOVICHThe other thing we're doing is -- excuse me -- is looking at it financially -- how can we generate additional income for the library so that the repairs and the maintenance of the building can be properly met?

NNAMDISpeaking of mixtures, Ginnie Cooper, one of the reasons the Tenleytown Library became such a controversial subject in this neighborhood was that it originally called for a mixed-use facility. The final product ended up being a smaller, single-use library. What lessons can you take out of the Tenley experience?

COOPERWell, actually, that library is the library that we originally designed. And with extra money from the city, there are supports on the back third of that building, which is closest to the school, so that a building for residents or another purpose could be added to that site. That, of course, would be a community decision, a decision both by our elected officials and by many people in the neighborhood who care about it a great deal.

COOPERAnd from my perspective, we got the we have promised that community, and we're thrilled to have it be so warmly welcomed and so accepted by people in this area. It's our busiest library now.

NNAMDIReally?

COOPERYes.

NNAMDITaleb, thank you for your call. We move on to Barry in Capitol Heights, Md. Barry, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BARRYThank you, Kojo. First off, I want to say that the Martin Luther King Library is -- well, it has been instrumental in my career. Shortly after I moved to D.C., I didn't have a computer, and the only place I could access the Internet was at that library. And I was fortunate enough to get a job. And, actually, I'm not just a librarian that remembers it. Back in 2000, I actually taped a commercial for (word?) because of it.

BARRYThat said, the history on this library -- you know, and the recent history, it's been around -- people trying to buy the building because of the location of land and the price of the land and the property of the building, which is something I definitely would not like to happen, the whole building disappearing, 'cause it is beautiful and historic. So my concern would be with mixed-use is making sure that whatever is placed in that building, it reflects and kind of enhances whatever -- the use of the library is not some sort of a corporate entity trying to buy the building completely from the city.

BARRYSo that's a kind of a political issue. I'll get off the line and just kind of hear the response to all of it.

NNAMDIBarry, thank you for your call. A creeping takeover of the building by a corporate entity is what Barry seems to be concerned about.

COOPERAnd I think the fact that that building is historically landmarked -- not only the exterior, but also that first floor public area -- means that the part of the building that most people experience, whether it's a library or some place else -- or the library is located some place else, will stay very much as it is.

NNAMDIThank you for your call. Here is Marilyn in Northwest Washington. Hi, Marilyn.

MARILYNHi. I'm a user -- a blind person and a user of the Adaptive Services Division of the library, which is located at Martin Luther King, which was beautifully renovated in -- well, we had a dedication at the same time that we celebrated the 200th anniversary of the birth of Louis Braille. And it is such a wonderful -- well, it's -- as I said in testimony to the city council within the last year, it's -- for the first time in my life, it's a library that I can go to as opposed to just having books sent to me through the mail.

MARILYNThat's the first time I've had a neighborhood library. And this has a lot to do with the librarian who is in charge of the Adaptive Services, Venetia Demson, but, you know, I wonder, when they're thinking about the future of the Martin Luther King Library, where would the Adaptive Services Division possibly be?

NNAMDIGinnie Cooper.

COOPERWell, believe me, we know how very important that service is to you and to so many others. In actual fact, we've not asked the committee, the panel, to pay much attention to exactly what goes into a library, though we've asked them to look at space, the total space requirement and where that might be met either in that building or in another location because we know that many in the community will want to weigh in on that question. As wonderful as the panel is, I don't think that's a question they could even give us very good advice on in this short time.

NNAMDIYou've already put in a fair amount of elbow grease in fixing up the Central Library since you came to Washington five years ago. What kind of work has already gone into restoring and upgrading the facility?

COOPERYou know, we're very lucky. With the support of the library board, and especially the city council and the several mayors, we have been able to be much better stewards of that important building than the District found possible in the past. So the fact that, on the first floor, all the lights are actually lit and that we do programs and have the wonderful opportunity for people to gather in that Great Hall, on that first floor -- and, by the way, that's where the panel's announcements and report will be delivered tomorrow morning at 9:00.

COOPERWe've also improved access services that the last caller just discussed. We've improved the technology lab, which is on the third floor. We're in the process of looking at what we can do on the Great Hall to make sure that the AV is easier to use, that it's better lit, and the same with the business area that's on the side nearest our new neighbor about to open next to us there on the first floor, and several other things, too, a great teen services space that opened a couple of years ago.

COOPERBut we still have asbestos. We still don't have the electrical service we need. We still can't run the wiring, and we still don't have enough restrooms, especially on the first floor, or elevators that always work.

NNAMDIMarilyn, thank you for your call. On to Kim in Washington, D.C. Kim, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

KIMHi. I love MLK Library. In fact, you know, I often -- it'll be a weekend destination for me. I'll go get a book and then go on the mall and read it, or I'll bring my laptop to do work. And I'd just like to say there are, you know, often plenty of homeless people who are there, and I've never had any issues at all. You know, we'll sit at the table together, and they're reading as well. So, like the panelist said, you know, they're clearly customers, you know, as well as everyone else that comes to the library.

KIMAnd I know one of the gentlemen -- he mentioned that there were two potential options, either, you know, the library sharing space or being moved. Are those the only options? That's my first question. Are they the only options? And then, also, I understand the rationale regarding conflicts of interest when it comes to, you know, D.C. residents being on the panel. And I'm an ANC commissioner, and I know some of my fellow commissioners were actually livid about that.

KIMAnd I could understand not having, maybe, you know, people with political affiliations or, you know, ANCs on the panel. But just regular D.C. citizens who go to the library, I think it would have been a good idea to have at least one or two regular, you know, citizens who are frequent library visitors on the panel as well just to get that perspective for people who regularly utilize the facility.

NNAMDISure, Kim. Well, I think at this point that's water under the bridge, so to speak. But I think that in terms of whether there are other options that were considered besides either moving the library or the mixed use option, I guess, Wayne Ratkovich can speak to that.

RATKOVICHI would be happy to, Kojo. Yeah, there is a third alternative. We weren't asked by the library to explore it, but in the interviews from -- that we had, a lot of people raised the issue: Why don't you just leave the library right where it is and not have a co-tenant and not relocate? Well, the truth is that's just an infeasible alternative. The building requires so much capital that something has to be done to financially allow that to happen.

RATKOVICHI think underlying all of this is the desire by everybody associated with this project to ensure that Washington, D.C. has a central library that it can be very proud of and that will serve its customers well. And, ultimately, that's where we want to help them achieve.

NNAMDIKim, thank you very much for your call. And you mentioned -- Kim talked about having residents on the panel. My assumption is that most of the 70 people you talked with yesterday were residents of the District of Columbia.

RATKOVICHThat is correct. That is absolutely correct.

NNAMDISo there was input, Kim. Thank you very much for your call. Ginnie Cooper, we're running out of time. But are there any projects underway, or soon to be underway, to continue to improve the MLK Library, regardless of what's ultimately decided about its future?

COOPERYes. That first floor Great Hall space, and that reading room to the left that houses our computer lab right now and our business services, those will be among the changes. We'd also love some differently configured meeting room spaces. We don't have enough small conference rooms, for example, and some other things to change, so keep watching in what goes on there.

NNAMDIGinnie Cooper is chief librarian for the District of Columbia. Thank you for joining us.

COOPERMy pleasure.

NNAMDIWayne Ratkovich is the chair of the Urban Land Institute's Advisory Services Panel for the Martin Luther King Library and a life trustee of The Urban Land Institute. He's founder and president of The Ratkovich Company, TRC. It's a Los Angeles-based development company. Wayne Ratkovich, thank you for joining us.

RATKOVICHMy pleasure. Thank you.

NNAMDIWe're going to take a short break. When we come back, it is Your Turn on Occupy D.C. and the Occupy movement's two-month anniversary. You can start calling now, 800-433-8850. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.