MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast the return of the alleged digital lynch mob when race and class collide with accusations of sexual harassment, but first making sense of Syria's protest movement by studying it from the outside and from within.

MR. KOJO NNAMDINews came out of Syria this week that its government launched a violent assault to retake the city of Homs, which has become critical battleground in the standoff between President Bashar al-Assad and the protesters challenging his legitimacy. Throughout the year, American audiences have largely followed such events in Syria from the outside in relying on reporters who have been uniformly shut out of the country and on a stream of online videos and images posted to the web by demonstrators themselves.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIBut according to at least one reporter who has been granted recent access inside Syria, the government there still feels confident that it can weather the storm and that it can do so without making major concessions to those who have been challenging it for months. Joining us in studio to have this conversation is Radwan Ziadeh, a visiting scholar at George Washington University. He's the founder of the Damascus Center for Human Rights Studies in Syria. Radwan Ziadeh, thank you for joining us.

MR. RADWAN ZIADEHThank you for having me.

NNAMDIJoining us by telephone from Beirut, Lebanon is Liz Sly, a reporter at the Washington Post. Liz Sly, thank you for joining us.

MS. LIZ SLYHello.

NNAMDIAlso joining us by telephone is Anthony Shadid, a reporter at the New York Times who won the Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting in 2004 and 2010. Anthony Shadid, thank you for joining us.

MR. ANTHONY SHADIDMy pleasure.

NNAMDIAnthony, you wrote yesterday that the events you're following in Homs right now may represent a kind of turning point for this unrest, that it's become an urban battlefield in a city that's a microcosm for the rest of Syria. What did you mean by that?

SHADIDWell, you know, two things have struck me, Kojo, about Homs and I think one is, you know, resistance is a tough word to use, but I think the fact that people are fighting back in a pretty sustained fashion. And also I think that perhaps more importantly what I've noticed, you know, what it seems is the case in Homs is the idea the Sunni Muslim majority is pretty firmly behind the uprising. And that's in contrast to what I'd seen when I was in Hama in the summer when there was still a lot of disagreement over the direction of the uprising, where the uprising was headed.

SHADIDI think what you're seeing in Homs is a much more unified city, at least in terms of its majority, and I think that could have repercussions as we look down the road.

NNAMDIWhat can you tell us about what's been happening in Homs during the past several days or so?

SHADIDWell, it's turned into one of the bloodier episodes of the Syrian uprising. Now, remember that Homs is Syria's third largest city, near the Lebanese border. It's been restive since the beginning. Some people like to call it the capital of the revolution. It has kept these protests up despite a ferocious crackdown, a crackdown that really hasn't let up all that much. But you have seen a determination, I think, on the part of the government to retake the most restive neighborhoods in past days and, you know, it's been a bloody several days.

SHADIDYou know, interestingly, it comes amid the Arab League's attempt to mediate a solution to the uprising, a mediation that looks like it's pretty much in tatters at this point, given the violence. And it leaves you kind of wondering where this is going where there's no mediation at this point, there's a lot of violence. There's the government determined to retake cities like Homs and people not willing to give up.

NNAMDIYou followed most of the action in Syria from outside the country even though you were granted access inside of it a few months ago, but I'm interested in process here. How do you report on a rebellion most of which you can't see?

SHADIDWell, you know, Kojo, I think it's one of the most frustrating stories I've ever reported on. You know, I was able to get in over the summer, live (word?) and then more recently. It is a story that you're kind of reporting one step removed, though. You're having to rely on contacts and phones and analysts and as much as you can glean from the events that are happening across the border. You know, I think if we have to be really frank and honest about it, you know, if someone asked are we getting the complete picture, I don't think that's the case. And I'm not sure how it is, you know, how possible it is to get the complete picture when you're reporting it with some remove.

NNAMDIIf you have questions or comments, call us at 800-433-8850. We're discussing events in Syria. 800-433-8850. You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Send us a tweet at kojoshow or go to our website, kojoshow.org, and join the conversation there. Liz Sly, you were inside Damascus in October, one of only a handful of Western reporters to be granted such authorization since the war began.

NNAMDIDuring that trip, you reported that even though the country is polarized and that violence is surging, the government still feels it's in no imminent danger of falling and is not feeling pressured to offer concessions to its opponents. What did you see?

SLYWell, yes, that's right. I mean, first of all, I was mostly in Damascus and Damascus is really in a bit of a bubble, if you like. The kind of violence and upheaval that Anthony was just talking about in Homs, really we haven't seen that in Damascus. There have been protests in Damascus, but they've been relatively small and confined to specific neighborhoods.

SLYIn the center of Damascus, life goes on and that's the message that the government wanted to show me. It's what they wanted me to see. And I think it's, in a way, it possibly creates a slightly false sense of security in Damascus which perhaps the government itself is guilty of sharing. The fact is that their capital doesn't seem under any immediate threat from there. All the violence and turmoil that we are getting in certain parts the country feels a very, very long way away.

NNAMDIIt is my understanding that you got into Syria this summer, but that it was not authorized. How did that trip compare to the one you just went on that was authorized?

SLYI did not go to Syria on an unauthorized trip. I have been on two authorized trips, the first one very short. It was only 36 hours. The second one, I was allowed in for five days. There are really three ways to go into Syria at the moment. You can get a tourist visa and some journalists have produced some excellent work doing that going in on a tourist visa and going undercover and mingling with the activists and then coming out and writing their reports.

SLYBut for people like me and Anthony whose names are known to the Syrian authorities because we write all the time on Syria, that's really not an option. And you can go in on an official visa like I did, but they're granting those so sparingly, very few and far between. And they'll pick you and they'll give you a very closely monitored trip so you won't be getting the whole picture either.

SLYAnd then you can smuggle in secretly across the border, which is extremely dangerous and people keep getting caught behind and very few people have actually done that. But Anthony did do that earlier in the summer when he managed to get to Hama.

NNAMDIAnthony, you care to talk about that a little bit and what you saw there?

SHADIDYou know, it was, probably wasn't the most, you know, advisable trip to take, to be honest. And you know, I did manage to get in. I guess we got lucky. I went with a photographer named Moit Zetzaman (sp?) and we went across the Lebanese border into Homs and then into Hama.

SHADIDAnd you know, Hama, I thought, was important as a journalist at that point because, you know, I don't want to overuse the word. I mean, it's kind of a loaded word, but for a moment, at least it was liberated in the sense that security forces had withdrawn from Hama for a brief period.

SHADIDAnd what struck me so much, I think, as a reporter, was in the brief moment when the security forces had withdrawn the city embraced a notion of self-determination. It's started taking its own affairs into its own hands and it was just, in a matter of weeks, saw local leaderships emerging, people trying to figure out how they would govern themselves. Of course, it came to an end at the beginning of Ramadan when the government retook Hama as they're trying to retake Homs right now.

SHADIDWe went from there to Homs and I have to say even then, Homs -- and, you know, Liz has written about this as well. You know, Homs is, I think, both, you know, it's both an optimistic sign of what might be ahead and also a very chilling and jarring sign of what may, you know, of where we may be headed with the Syrian uprising. There have been sectarian killings. Sectarian tension is very high. There's a lot of violence going on right now and in some ways, I think, you know, you're probably not overstating it too much by saying Homs could be the make or break, in some ways, of where this uprising goes.

NNAMDIAnthony Shadid is a reporter at The New York Times. He won the Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting in 2004 and 2010. He's calling from Beirut, Lebanon. He joins us from Beirut, Lebanon. Liz Sly is a reporter at the Washington Post who also joins us from Beirut. In studio is Radwan Ziadeh, visiting scholar at George Washington University and founder of the Damascus Center for Human Rights in Syria. Radwan the Arab League came out last week with a peace plan for Syria which the Assad regime initially agreed to. Your reaction was that the regime was lying and merely buying time. Why do you feel that way?

ZIADEHBecause on the same day, actually, they killed more than 22 in Homs and 11 in different cities in Syria. The regime will never actually accept even that he -- saying to the media that he accepts the initiative, but on the ground, actually they're still acting and killing people. They're shooting in the cities, as Anthony and Liz talked about, and Homs became actually the capital of the Syrian revolution.

ZIADEHAnd every day, even this holy day, holy days during the Eid in the Muslim calendar, but even that, the regime did not respect any ethics and continued shelling the cities. And this is why in the Syrian National Council declared yesterday Homs as actually the city in disaster and calling for the international community to protect the civilians, with the same time to the Red Cross to send any medical or any food assistance to the city of Homs and basically in the neighborhood called Babam.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is the number to call if you have questions or comments about the situation in Syria. Radwan Ziadeh, we spoke to one of your colleagues in the opposition movement, Mohammad al-Abdallah, this past August. At the time, he said he was waiting for the magic words from President Obama, Assad must step down. President Obama has made that step, but what else do you think he needs to do or what do you think needs to happen for there to be enough international pressure for your movement to gain momentum?

ZIADEHThe problem is that President Obama said that Assad has to step down like other European leaders, but they do nothing to make this happen. I mean, this is -- it should be followed up with an action on the ground, actually enforce Bashar Assad to step down because Bashar Assad will not leave his office after the killing of more than 4,000.

ZIADEHIf President Obama or other international leaders call him to do, I think that the international community, they should put more pressure on the Assad regime to step down. Now, next Saturday, we have a meeting for the Arab League and if the Arab League takes specific actions towards Syria and ask the Security Council to protect the civilians now, actually the time for the Security Council to adopt sanctions and refer crimes against humanity to the International Criminal Court. Also at the same time, sending according to the 7th Charter of the U.N., blue hat observers where actually they can observe and monitor the human rights violations and the crimes against humanity committed by the Assad militias.

NNAMDILiz Sly, both you and Anthony Shadid have closely followed the rebellions that have taken place throughout the year. I'll start with you first, Liz Sly, what sense do you have for what makes this particular conflict in Syria different from what happened in Tunisia, Egypt or Libya?

SLYWell, first and for a start, those three countries have got rid of their dictators and they're already embarking on a course of democracy. And you know, there was merely the question for those countries is what a democracy would look like and how they structure them and where they go. We don't know at all what's going to happen in Syria. Bashar al-Assad believes he's still there, as I discovered when I was there. And that that's in no slang that anything's going to dislodge him anytime soon.

SLYThere's no -- there's absolutely no sense at all at where this is going to lead. Another major difference is, is just the strategic location of Syria. It lies at the intersection of all these ethnic sectarian political fault lines in the Middle East. Syria, Libya is at the center of a web of complicated alliances that have dictated the balance of power in the Middle East for the past 30 years.

SLYAnd if that regime goes everything that would -- all the assumptions we've taken for granted about the Middle East for the past 30, 40 years will also go with him. And I think that's one reason why the Western powers are so reluctant to actually take action. Why we're not seeing firm action from the international community as a whole to dislodge relation because people just have no idea where it will lead and what sort of chaos -- people could be unleashed.

NNAMDIAnthony Shadid, same question to you.

SHADIDWell, I think Liz is exactly right and I'm going to -- I don't want to repeat what she said but I think her points are spot on. You know, I don’t think there is a, you know, I think the opposition is focused on an appeal to the international community to somehow create a decisive moment in Syria and I just don't think that's in the cards. I think, as Liz said, this is an international community that is as worried about the aftermath as it is worried about the repression that's going on inside the country right now.

SHADIDI was recently speaking to someone in Washington, an American official, who even hesitated to call the opposition, an opposition at this point. She still referred to them as oppositionists. And I think what is incumbinent (sp?) and I don’t want -- this isn't my place as a pundit or anything like that. But I think one failure that we've seen so far and I don’t mean this as a criticism of Radwan by any means, but I think one failing we've seen inside Syria is the opposition has not been able to articulate a vision of a future that is reassured the minorities.

SHADIDAnd I think that's still a pressing issue going forward. Radwan may disagree with me on that point, but I think until there's maybe a clearer sense of, you know, of pop -- of this revolt having a popular mandate, especially among the minorities and he's going to have more difficulty getting international support.

NNAMDIIndeed. Radwan, to what degree are you concerned about the ability of the opposition movement to effectively represent the diverse interests of those included in it? Former U.S. Ambassador Ted Kattouf told us earlier this year that he's particularly concerned about the rights of minorities.

ZIADEHI mean, Syria has no history of civil war. This is -- I don't think any Syrians has concern about the right of the minorities and the Christians and then be protected. Syria has a history of -- of Christian has been actually been have -- high level of positions like the Prime Minister, like in 1952 when the Prime Minister was Faris al-Khoury, who was actually Christian and Protestant, as he became Prime Minister for two terms.

ZIADEHAnd at that time, the Muslim Brothers -- they have four seats in the Parliament and they support him. I understand that there is a lot of social change right now in 2011. But with the same time, this uprising actually crossed the sects and crossed the ethnic groups. This is why if you have seen Christian have been killed, (word?) have been killed. And the Syrian National Council has a clear vision that in the new constitution, we will protect, we will guarantee the right of the minorities, since they are actually participating and they are part of the opposition.

ZIADEHOur -- the only problem actually we have to deal with the Alawite community in the future. This has been much more difficult question. Because the overwhelming of the victims, of course, are Sunni and the overwhelming of the murders are Alawite. And this is the question, how can to create such kind of reconciliation? The Syrian National Council, they adopting now a project called the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which should be actually adopt after the fall of the Assad regime.

ZIADEHThey trying to get some lessons from South Africa and some Latin-Americans countries, how actually to trying to reconcile all the ethnic and (word?) groups with -- then we don't have any problems in, like, the threat of the civil war or et cetera. But the same time, we have to -- not to fill in the gap of the threat of the Assad regime when he's saying that, the only alternative of the Assad regime is a civil war.

ZIADEHAs I said before, Syria has no history of civil war. With the same time, after eight months of peaceful demonstrations, the people, they no understand that, even that the Assad regime is investing in the civil war but the people, they have resistance for that because they do believe they have to keep Syria as one country, as in one unity.

NNAMDIWell, let's talk about some of the divisions, Anthony Shadid. You wrote in today's New York Times, that by some accounts, the conflict in Homs is laying bare the tensions within the Syrian military, that the security forces are largely Alawite and loyal to the ruling regime, but that they've had to rely more on more and Sunni military personnel in Homs and that defections became more common. What's going on?

SHADIDYeah, exactly. I mean, that really struck me in the interviews we did in Homs with how many people were telling us about, you know, young soldiers knocking on their doors, asking for blankets or food or water. There have been a lot of reports of looting and looting as much it seems, just, you know, to get things they don't have in some respects. Or facing, I think, is armed resistance increases, security services are not going to be able to go in on their own. It's going to require the military to accompany them.

SHADIDYou're going to need tanks, in other words, that, in some ways, kind of paved their way or paved the way before them. As that becomes more the case, you're relying on the institution of the military that the government doesn't trust. It is predominantly Sunni Muslim. It draws its membership from the same constituencies that are propelling the uprising, and that is the disenfranchised poor Sunni Muslims in the countryside.

SHADIDAnd I think the longer the military -- those -- that constituency are in the cities and they see what's happening, you're going to have an increasing danger of defections. And I think we've already seen that to a certain degree. I don't want to overstate that by any means. I don't think the defections have reached a crisis within the military. It's just one of those trends that you see that could take on more meaning as we go forward. And as -- in fact, the revolt does become more of an armed uprising then a peaceful protest.

NNAMDISpeaking of as we go forward, this question for all of you but I will start with you, Liz Sly. What can you predict at this point about the trajectory of the protest movement itself? Are we getting closer to a situation where we're likely to see more violent repression of the opposition or more violent techniques from the opposition itself? First you, Liz Sly.

SLYWell, I would say both of those. We had six, seven, nearly eight months now of overwhelmingly peaceful protest. They have not made any discernable difference to the government. They haven't produced concessions, they haven't dislodged the government. The government is secure in Damascus. On that front, little has changed. People are getting frustrated, they're getting very frustrated. I know that most of the activists I talked to a few months ago were committed whole heartedly to the notion of peaceful change and non-violent in the streets.

SLYThey're now talking about getting weapons, how they can get weapons, the way to do it. They're not even arguing the point anymore. They're just talking about the best way to go about it. There is this entity called Free Syrian Army which is supposed to be comprised of defective soldiers. And there have been defections in large portions of the country where the protest movement is still very active. There are defections and defective soldiers are actually fighting back against the regime.

SLYWhich, I think they are being joined by a growing number of civilians who are doing what they can to acquire arms. However, the question from the protestor site is, can they get enough arms quickly enough to actually make a difference. And I'm just not sure they can. They don't have outside support, they don't have enough money, they don't have expertise, training or a place to go to organize themselves safely.

SLYBut at the same time, you have the pressures on the government that Anthony was just talking about. The military is stretched. They are relying on mostly Sunni conscript soldiers. And defections have been increasing, there's no doubt about it. So in short, I would just say, I have no idea where this is going to go, but I don't see it ending soon and I think more violence is the only likely course.

NNAMDIAnthony Shadid.

SHADIDYeah, absolutely. I mean, I think -- and Liz is right to say that they don't have the weapons, they don't have the outside support. I mean, guns and maybe RPG's and then what then? You know, I think one thing that strikes me is that Homs does offer an example in some ways to the rest of the country that you can fight back. At the same time, how long can you fight back? I don't think there was any question that Homs is going to be retaken by the government completely.

SHADIDYou're talking about a ragtag, you know, group of defectors and I think Liz is right. And civilians joined them with what guns they have, but they're not going to be able to face an organized, disciplined, you know, well-armed military. And -- so where does that leave them? What from there? I mean, there is a greater turn to armed resistance. There's a sense that this is the only way to overthrow the government. This is a government that still has the power to repress that kind of resistance.

SHADIDAnd even probably once it's a turn in that direction because then it becomes clear, let's say -- let's put it this way, it becomes closer to their narrative of facing an armed uprising. So I'm not sure the government is even all that upset at the turn this is taking. Where does it go from here? As Liz said, I have no idea but it does seem like it's going to become more violent, more protracted and more uncertain.

NNAMDIRadwan Ziadeh.

ZIADEHI think that's -- the Syrian regime from the day one, involved the army. On -- in April and May actually there's a lot of defection in among the army, but they are throwing their guns away and stay in their homes. But starting in June and August, those are defectors from the army start, actually, fighting back against the Assad militias and against the soldiers who are still loyal to the Assad regime. And that create a lot of fight among the defectors and the loyal one.

ZIADEHAnd this is why when hear about the news, everyday news about more people have been killed in the army, actually those maybe are defectors or loyal to the regime. But still actually, the overwhelming of the protests, demonstrations are peaceful...

NNAMDIWhat...

ZIADEH...and we insist on that. But it's now the regime actually paying the price of involvement of the army because the army is made by the people. Every Syrian has to serve the army two years and those people who are actually enforced to kill their brothers, now they are fighting against the Assad militias and against the security forces. And this became the hot spot.

ZIADEHNow why the regime is not unable to control in Homs, as example, because actually those soldiers who defected and this is why the national Security Council has a responsibility actually to protect them in finding way for them to organize themselves. And I do agree with Liz and Anthony that there is no outside support right now and there is no actually a safe haven for them to organize themselves and to start fighting back again as what we have in Benghazi and Libya. And this is one of the issues we concern us in the Syrian National Council.

NNAMDIDo you see a role for the U.S. or the international community to influence the events as they are currently unfolding in Syria, Radwan Ziadeh?

ZIADEHI think now we have to wait the Arab League on Saturday. If the Arab League take an important actions as we called Arab League to do, I think should the security council in next week take different actions and specific actions to protect the civilians and to send blue heart observers to the city of Homs and other cities to protect the civilians there.

NNAMDIHere is Adian (sp?) in Washington, D.C. Adian, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ADIANHi.

NNAMDIAdian, we can't hear you very well. I guess that's because your phone isn't working very well. Let's try Edward in Rockville, Md. Edward, your turn. Go ahead, please.

EDWARDHi, Kojo.

NNAMDIHi, Edward.

EDWARDOkay. I believe Assad regime is the best regime to rule Syria. He makes a balance between a majority Sunni and minority Christian. Iraq is a good example, less (unintelligible) suffering of (word?) Christian. If we approve the removal of Assad, the minority Christian will be a, you know, they will put the minority Christian at stake.

NNAMDIAllow me to have, in the few minutes we have left, Radwan Ziadeh respond to that because that is the concern we have heard expressed before about what's -- what will be happening with minorities in general and Christians in particular.

ZIADEHWhy do you think that's the other Syrians or the Christian, they will massacre themselves? There is no question. There is no reason for this to happen. In Iraq is different example you have envisioned from outside. But this revolution came from inside the people. And all of the ethnic and religious groups, they are participating in because no one actually can convince me that the Muslims, they are looking for dignity and the Christian are not. No. This is not the questions. All our Syrians, we are fighting for human rights, for dignity and for respect for all others.

NNAMDIRadwan Ziadeh is a visiting scholar at George Washington University. He's the founder of the Damascus Center for Human Rights in Syria. Liz Sly is a reporter at the Washington Post and Anthony Shadid is a reporter for The New York Times. Thank you all for joining us. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll be talking about the return of the alleged digital lynch mob when race and class collide with accusations of sexual harassment. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.