MR. KOJO NNAMDIWelcome back. NPR, specifically WBUR is reporting that, until now, Karen Kraushaar has been noted to many Washingtonians as woman A, one of two employees who settled claims of sexual harassment against Herman Cain, more than a decade ago when he headed the National Restaurant Association. Well, today, after another woman went public with her harassment accusation against Cain. Kraushaar's identity was revealed by an iPad news site, The Daily.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIShe has confirmed to NPR that she is one of the first women, but declined to say more about the incident. She is a career federal employee, registered republican, currently works as a communications director at the U.S. Treasury Department. It's a word so charged with meaning and imagery, so intimidating, so troublesome it can stop most conversations cold. And in many ways that's exactly what people using it often want, the word, lynching.

MR. KOJO NNAMDITwenty years ago, then Supreme Court nominee Clarence Thomas called investigations into his alleged sexual harassment of Anita Hill, a high-tech lynching. Now, many supporters of Herman Cain's campaign are evoking the term as that candidate faces claims of sexual impropriety. One law professor who knows the history and legacy of lynching is crying foul, saying it's more than semantics, it's downright offensive.

MR. KOJO NNAMDISherrilyn Ifill joins us by telephone from Baltimore. She's a professor at the University of Maryland, Francis King Carey School of Law and the author of "On the Courthouse Lawn: Confronting the Legacy of Lynching in the 21st Century." Sherrilyn Ifill, thank you for joining us.

MS. SHERRILYN IFILLThanks for having me, Kojo.

NNAMDIYou've studied the history and legacy of lynching historically. What are we talking about when we talk about lynchings?

IFILLWell, the piece that I wrote that's up on theroot.com, you know, provides a very small snapshot, an example of the form of racial terrorism known as lynching that was practiced in this country, really from the 1890s until the mid 1950s. I think it all but two states, if I recall correctly. Obviously lynchings were most prevalent in the South but they happened throughout the country. And they were a crime that was targeted not only at an individual who was killed in the most brutal fashion, but also at the communities where that individual lived. It was a means of regulating black citizenship.

IFILLYou know, there was the poll packs and there was segregation, Jim Crow. But lynching was an important part of it. The threat of violence and the threat of a form of really lurid and grotesque violence in which victims were often burned to death, were hung, were dismembered, their body parts were held and kept as souvenirs, you know, for decades. It was so horrifying, so lurid, that it was one of the keys to maintaining blacks within communities throughout this country and to keep blacks from fully exercising their citizenship and their power.

IFILLAnd it's a horrible chapter in our history that continues to resonate today in many of the communities where these events happened. But certainly they have nothing to do with sexual harassment allegations being made against a, you know, a millionaire who's running to be the most powerful man in the country or -- nor did they have any relevance to the efforts of a sitting federal appellate court judge to sit on the most powerful court in the world when credible allegations of sexual harassment had been raised against him.

NNAMDIYou're referring to the Clarence Thomas episode in...

IFILLI am.

NNAMDI...1991.

IFILLI am.

NNAMDIHe famously said he was the victim of a high-tech lynching during a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, looking into allegations that he had sexually harassed Anita Hill. The Herman Cain campaign is using some of that Clarence Thomas audio in its ad on the issue, let's take a listen.

MR. CLARENCE THOMASThis is a circus. It's a national disgrace. It is a high-tech lynching for uppity blacks who in any way deign to think for themselves. And it is a message that unless you kow-tow to an old order, you will be lynched, destroyed, caricatured, rather than hung from a tree.

NNAMDISherrilyn Ifill, I'd like you to discuss that in two terms, one being the use of lynching as a metaphor in general and its specific use in the case of Clarence Thomas', Justice Thomas' confirmation hearings and whether or not the terms seem to have the desired effect.

IFILLWell, yes, of course. You know, there is the idea of the lynch mob and people talk about that as a metaphor but in the case of both Clarence Thomas and Herman Cain, they are using it specifically in its literal sense, as you heard from the clip that you just aired in which he talked about being hung from a tree. He's actually talking about the racialized form of terror that we all know as lynching. And when a black man raises it, particularly raises it in the context of accusations being made against him involving some kind of sexual misconduct, you are clearly making a statement that is meant to call to mind the actual meaning of lynching in America.

IFILLI mean, lynching is what W. E. B. Du Bois called America's national crime, you know, as a form of racial terrorism and it produces a response. It produces a response in whites and it produces a response in blacks. And my concern is that the use of the term therefore is manipulative because it keeps us from thinking clearly about the issue that's actually before us. In the case of Clarence Thomas, it was the allegations that had come forth when Anita Hill testified in which were not properly investigated or aired by the Senate Judiciary Committee.

IFILLYou know, you played the audio of Clarence Thomas saying that but for those of us who were there or who want to go on Herman Cain's website and see the visuals of it will remember, you could've heard a pin drop. It was such a stunning and powerful moment because the use of that statement and the way in which he said it was so overwhelming. And the result of that was that the then chairman of the committee, Joe Biden, and others on the committee felt very concerned about pushing too hard.

IFILLAnd so even though there were other witnesses who were there and prepared to testify in ways that would've corroborated Anita Hill's testimony, they didn't call those witnesses. And I think it was in large part or at least in some part because, you know, Clarence Thomas has basically taken hold of the hearing by making that statement and by raising this imagery that nobody wanted to touch.

NNAMDIWe're talking with Sherrilyn Ifill. She's a professor at the University of Maryland Francis King Carey School of Law and author of "On the Courthouse Lawn: Confronting the Legacy of Lynching in the 21st Century." We're talking about the use of the phrase high-tech lynching by the campaign of republican Presidential candidate Herman Cain in response to allegations of sexual harassment.

NNAMDIWe're inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. Are you outraged by the use of the high-tech lynching defense or do you find it understandable? 800-433-8850, do you think the Cain campaign is wise to take this approach, why or why not? 800-433-8850. We're going to take a short break and then we'll come back to our conversation with Sherrilyn Ifill. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation about the allegations of high-tech lynching invoked by the campaign of republican Presidential candidate Herman Cain and invoke initially by Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas during his confirmation hearings 20 years ago. We're talking with Sherrilyn Ifill. She's a professor at the University of Maryland Francis King Carey School of Law and author of the book "On the Courthouse Lawn: Confronting the Legacy of Lynching in the 21st Century."

NNAMDISherrilyn Ifill, it's 20 years later. You talked about your view of how effective it was when Justice Thomas used the term but a lot has changed or maybe not so much over the past two decades. Do you think the argument will be as effective today as it was in 1991?

IFILLWell, this is one thing I have to say, I think I'm pleased about, Kojo, and that is that, you know, the other piece to using the term high-tech lynching is to stir up a sense of solidarity among blacks. Obviously this is a very serious part of our history and so when we hear that charge, I think, for Clarence Thomas that it did actually create a level of support for him within the black community or it increased a level of support for him.

IFILLMany of you may recall that many blacks actually supported Clarence Thomas during his confirmation process. In fact, more so after the Anita Hill allegations because he was regarded as being besieged and his statement that this was like a high-tech lynching, I think, had a very powerful effect. I'm happy to see that I think that effect is not happening with Herman Cain in terms of, you know, people not taking this into some kind racialize issue.

IFILLThe point is that allegations were made against him in the '90s, we're learning new information everyday about it. He's seeking to become the President of the United States, it's the kind of scrutiny that one could expect and it has nothing to do with lynching, high-tech or otherwise. And moreover, you know, my hope is that, you know, people will recognize that this aspect of our history is actually critically important for us to understand, particularly at a local level.

NNAMDII'm glad you mentioned that because you said it has nothing to do with the lynching, high-tech or otherwise.

IFILLYes.

NNAMDIBoth Clarence Thomas and Herman Cain have used this phrase in the context of allegations of sexual impropriety but you note that there's no direct connection between lynching's and sexual crimes despite wide spread beliefs to the contrary.

IFILLWell, I mean, thank God for the great anti-lynching advocate, Ida B. Wells-Barnett, who first began an investigation of lynching in the early 20th century. And the study that she did had been borne out by subsequent analysis including my own review of lynchings. And that is that lynching was most often a response to an allegation that a black man had assaulted or killed a white man.

IFILLIt is true that the allegation is the second most frequent reason used to try and justify lynching but it was not the first. It was usually assault or murder of a white man. And certainly I know of no recorded incident in which the justification of a lynching was of a black man, was because of inappropriate sexual conduct toward a black woman which was what was alleged in, you know, the allegations against Clarence Thomas. So it wasn't even really an apt metaphor if one wanted to use it that way. And as a I suggested earlier, you know, it's not clear to me that he was using it metaphorically when he, you know, invoked that image of hanging from a tree.

NNAMDIAnd I'd like to get your weigh in on the latest public accusation against candidate Herman Cain. That one made by Sharon Bialek yesterday, it was the first person who stepped out publicly and said, look this is what happened to me. As a lawyer, what's your view of, well, what she did?

IFILLWell, this is a very strange situation. I mean, by all accounts, the Cain camp was made aware that these allegations existed several weeks ago. And so they actually had the opportunity to get out ahead of this story. Obviously this is something that happened in the 1990s, various agreements were reached with people who were paid and chose to leave their employ rather than continue to press forward with it.

IFILLAnd so it seems to me that the Cain camp had wanted to get out ahead of this, they could have. But unfortunately, Herman Cain decided first to, you know, say, I don't really remember and then to deny that it happened. And then to talk in very disparaging ways about, you know, the women who made these accusations and not just really Cain's camp but others also in the republican party and Rush Limbaugh and so forth.

IFILLAnd the effect of that is always to do precisely what has happened in this case which is to make, you know, the women want to come forward to clear their name. When you start calling someone a bimbo and so forth, it makes them want to show that in fact that is not who they are. And so this is all the fully expected fallout of the failure of, you know, Cain's camp to come forward and to forthrightly say, if he's claiming that he's innocent, accusations were made, it wasn't true but I didn't want to go ahead with the lawsuits or whatever is his explanation. He chose not to do that and this is the logical and I think to be expected fallout of the course they chose.

NNAMDII'm interested in the phrase you use, get out ahead of it.

IFILLYeah.

NNAMDIDo you feel that if the Cain campaign had -- and of course, obviously, I'm theorizing here, had simply...

IFILLYeah.

NNAMDI...stepped out and the candidate had said, look, I made some mistakes in the past for which I apologize. I am moving ahead, that is no longer the person that I am, it would've made a difference?

IFILLYeah, oh, absolutely. I absolutely think so. As a matter of fact, I think, you know, Cain has enjoyed, you know, a lot of popularity for being -- you know, it goes to his brand, right? He's straight talking, he's forthright, he's not politically correct. You know, it all goes to his brand and he could have -- listen I'm no public relations expert, that's not what I do, but it seems to me he could have done that.

IFILLAnd it certainly would have put him in a better position than it does now because of course, now it is about whether or not you obfuscated, whether you lied, whether you mislead and so forth and that raises a whole different set of questions then it would have raised to say this happened when I was a different person and, you know, and it was handled in that particular way.

NNAMDILet's go to the phones. Here is Bert in Washington, D.C. Bert, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BERTWell, I wanted to comment and a question. I thought Ms. Ifill's analysis was superb. I wanted just to add that the real reason or the main reason why Biden pulled his punches apart from the high-tech lynching which affected all the democrats was that the White House learned from the Bork nomination when Hal Heflin's key vote against Bork was caused by black ministers and political leaders in Alabama telling him it was a litmus test.

BERTAnd as a result, the White House got black leaders in Wilmington to call Biden and make similar comments up front. But my question to Ms. Ifill is this, do you expect black political leaders or civil rights leaders today to echo the kind of analysis that you did visa-vie his use of the term now to defend him or do you suspect they will be quiet because it might seem too much of a partisan comment if they rebutted him?

IFILLYeah, you know, I'm not really sure how, you know, how people are going to respond to it. And by the way, in my piece in the Root, you know, I also raised the incident when Roland Burris, Senator Roland Burris, announced that he was the new junior Senator from Illinois after he'd been selected by Governor Rob Blagojevich to fill the seat left by the, then President elect Barack Obama. And you'll recall that state Senator Bobby Rush came forward and said, you know, please don't lynch him, you know, begging the press not to lynch him.

IFILLAnd I thought that also was inappropriate. You know, there were credible questions about Roland Burris, about whether he could hold that seat, both for the democrats and hold that seat as the lone seat held by an African-American Senator. There were legitimate questions. And simply because a barrage of the press is asking questions, is not a reason to invoke lynching. In terms of how leaders will respond to the Herman Cain thing, I think people are just being very quiet about it right now and letting it play itself out as well they should.

IFILLBecause as you can see, everyday there's kind of, you know, a new revelation and until the full story is out, I think, that's something people have learned from the Clarence Thomas hearings, it's best not to get in the middle of it. You know, I just want us to have a space in which we can look at and analyze the facts for someone who's running for President rather than allow ourselves to become emotionally overwhelmed by a phrase, a statement, a word that carries with it huge emotional baggage and is an important part of our history that also should be respected.

NNAMDIBert, thank you for your call. Onto Hal in Fairfax, Va. Hal, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

HALThank you for taking my call. I just wanted to say, I'm glad you just said your last comment. That's what I wanted to call about and personally agree with. This is really just more of distraction. It takes away from the fact that this man did not know that China has had weapons since, what, 1964, 1965. We have no idea who Herman Cain is. And just like Clarence Thomas, black or white, this is not about high-tech lynching or anything else, it's about him simply not being able to keep his hands off people who don't want to be touched.

HALAnd we still have -- because of this distraction, we still have not been able to delve into exactly who Herman Cain is or the fact that this man is wholly unqualified to be the President. The same as Clarence Thomas, both are intelligent but both, when you look at their records, in my personal opinion, are just simply -- I mean, I won't say unqualified but I will say there are questions about whether they should be...

NNAMDIWell, allow me to have Sherrilyn Ifill respond because Justice Thomas has been on the bench for 20 years now. So I'm not sure we can re-debate that point. But I'd be interested in hearing Sherrilyn Ifill's comments on your comment.

IFILLWell, I think, you know, the caller is right in the sense that, let's focus on the issues. You know, I don't think anybody every argued that Clarence Thomas was not nominally qualified to sit on the Supreme Court. The question was about suitability to sit on the Supreme Court. And a question had been raised about his conduct in the workplace while he was head of the equal employment opportunity commission. It was a relevant question. And anybody going for a job interview, let alone one involving a job for life on the most powerful court in the country, should expect to face some scrutiny.

IFILLAnd if those kinds of serious allegations had been raised, we should have investigated them fully in terms of doing our due diligence. That has nothing to do with whether or not he is intelligent, whether or not has a judicial philosophy, which he does. He writes excellent judicial opinions. I disagree with all of them but they're incredibly well written. And he has a real philosophy. That was not the question that was on the table at that moment.

NNAMDIAnd I'm afraid that's all the time we have. Sherrilyn Ifill, thank you so much for joining us.

IFILLThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDISherrilyn Ifill is a professor at the University of Maryland Francis King Cary School of Law and the author of "On the Courthouse Lawn: Confronting the Legacy of Lynching in the 21st Century." The Kojo Nnamdi show is produced by Brendan Sweeney, Michael Martinez, Ingalisa Schrobsdorff and Tayla Burney with assistance from Kathy Goldgeier and Elizabeth Weinstein. The managing producer is Diane Vogel. The engineer is Andrew Chadwick, A.C. Valdez is on the phones. Thank you all for listening, I'm Kojo Nnamdi.