MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. On the surface, it looks like a win-win situation for Prince George's County after decades of complaints that high-end retail was bypassing the county. Whole Foods Market, the symbolic gold standard of high-end grocery stores says it wants to build a new facility on a vacant lot along Route 1, near College Park.

MR. KOJO NNAMDISo why are some local residents trying to stop it? Homeowners near the proposed site complained it would create a traffic nightmare. The plans, such as they are, call for 180,000 square feet of retail and 995 new residential units. They hit all the smart-growth watchwords, mixed-use development, proximity to Metro stations. But critics say they're not nearly as smart as the developers claim.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIJoining us in studio to discuss this is Vernon Archer, mayor of Riverdale Park. Vernon Archer, thank you for joining us.

MAYOR VERNON ARCHERThank you for having me.

NNAMDIAlso with us is David Iannucci. He's a senior member of the economic development and public infrastructure team in the office of Prince George's County executive Rushern Baker. David Iannucci, thank you for joining us.

MR. DAVID IANNUCCIGood afternoon.

NNAMDIAlso with us is Roland Stephen. He is a contributor to the website Greater Greater Washington. Roland, good to have you along.

MR. ROLAND STEPHENGood afternoon.

NNAMDIAnd Sarah Starrett is a community activist and resident of University Park, the community immediately adjacent to the proposed development. She joins us by phone. Sarah Starrett, welcome to you.

MS. SARAH STARRETTThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIRoute 1, Baltimore Ave., stretches from the northeast corner of the District up to the Beltway in Prince George's County. It's a corridor with a lot of strip malls and businesses but not quite as developed, say, Rockville Pike in Montgomery County or Leesburg Pike Highway in Northern Virginia, just below College Park lies this 36-acre lot with a bunch of trees on it. But the owner, the Cafritz family, if they have their way, it will be transformed over the next couple of years into a mixed-use property. Roland, I'll start with you. Why is this project so controversial?

STEPHENWell, I think change is always hard but in particular because of traffic concerns. There will be some impact on traffic. That depends a little bit on how they manage access to the property. But Route 1 is already very busy and the E. West Highway, very, very busy. So I think that's the first concern for a lot of people. And there are some other ones, runoff environmental concerns, things like that.

NNAMDIVernon Archer, same question to you.

ARCHERYeah. I second those concerns. Some of them are also focused around education. It's, I think, pretty well-known that there's been some struggles in Prince George's County to maintain the school system at a high quality level. And there's concern that with a residential build-out where those kids are going to go to school, we have crowding in a number of the near -- well, all of the nearby elementary schools in particular.

NNAMDIAnd we should point out that even though it is across the street from College Park, the development is technically in Riverdale Park, is that correct?

ARCHERExactly. It's 100 percent in Riverdale, but it's on the border with College Park to the north and University Park to -- immediately to the west. So three communities with real interests in this area.

NNAMDIYou can join this conversation by calling 800-433-8850. Does Route 1 or any other major arteries in our region need more mixed-use development and infill? 800-433-8850. You can send us a tweet, @kojoshow, email to kojo@wamu.org. Or simply go to our website, kojoshow.org, ask a question or make a comment there. Sarah Starrett, the proposed development lies, as we said, in the town of Riverdale Park, but your town lies across the street, on the other side of Route 1, University Park.

NNAMDITo date, the most vocal opposition to this plan has come from University Park. Why are you and your neighbors so wary of this development?

STARRETTWell, Kojo, I just want to add before I talk about University Park that we also have a fourth community, Hyattsville, which is right across the street from us on the south side of E. West Highway.

NNAMDICorrect.

STARRETTAnd I think that the Hyattsville mayor and the Hyattsville community is also very concerned about this. That, you know, in addition to the College Park, Riverdale Park, University Park. So basically, all four towns, I think, share a lot of concerns. Route 1, as Mr. Archer said, is completely overburdened. And right now, that intersection -- the intersection that's closest to where this development would be is already a failing intersection.

STARRETTSo Route 410, E. West Highway needs a lot of improvements to be able to make this work. And Route 1 needs a lot of improvements to make this work. And one of the proposals would be to take land from University Park to widen Route 1, to turn Route 1 into a, you know, major highway, which would support this kind of commercial strip mall-style development. And we're very much opposed to that.

STARRETTWe don't want strip malls, and we don't want this section of Route 1, which is a very narrow residential two-lane -- two lanes on each side going north to south. We don't want to see it expanded. We want to see the traffic managed in a more sensible way. And I think a lot of my neighbors in University Park agree with the town of Riverdale Park that access from the railroad tracks from the south along what's called Maryland Ave. or sometimes it's called Rhode Island Ave. would make a lot more sense than to put all of this new traffic onto Route 1.

STARRETTWell, I just did want to say one other thing. We do support -- many of us do support having commercial development, and we support Whole Foods in particular. But we're very concerned about the 950 residential units. Our town -- our complete town consists of 900 single-family houses. So if this thing were built with high-rise developments and hotels, which is what they're talking about, it would really be, you know, major change to a residential community.

NNAMDIDavid Iannucci, Prince George's County is the most affluent African-American majority county in this country, but as long as I've been doing this show and living in these parts, the same complaints from residents and county officials; businesses, especially high-end retailers and restaurateurs won't invest in the county. I know the Office of the County Executive would like to make this Whole Foods deal happen. How do you view the anxieties being expressed about this project?

IANNUCCIWell, we have to listen to and understand the needs of the community, and it's important that we address the traffic issues. We understand that the housing units are a serious concern. But these things can be worked out. This type of development has occurred elsewhere. The Route 1 corridor is one of the most developed corridors in Prince George's County. It's one of our critical gateway communities leading from the Beltway all the way down to the district line.

IANNUCCIIt is heavily developed already. And with Metro stations there now, with Purple Line coming, with a lot of greater development on the -- in College Park with students and so forth, and also taking -- acknowledging that the University of Maryland is our largest single site employer in Prince George's County. It is -- it frankly doesn't surprise us that Whole Foods would identify this area as an affluent area, an area with the buying power that could support a Whole Foods.

IANNUCCIWe also know when Whole Foods makes location decisions, they look to see where their customers are already coming. And apparently, their data is showing a lot of people are already coming from this part of Prince George's County to serve their other stores. So all these issues are important. We have to listen to the community, but Prince George's County does see locating this Whole Foods is an opportunity that we cannot miss.

NNAMDIWe're talking about locating a Whole Foods in Prince George's County and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. How important is retail, especially high-end retail for community economic development? 800-433-8850. You can send email to kojo@wamu.org. Do you find the opposition, David Iannucci, somewhat frustrating?

IANNUCCIIt is a -- I've been in economic development a long time, and there are always issues on site locations, whether it's an I.T. company or life science company or retail. So these are legitimate issues that have to be aired. But Prince George's County, as you said, has had a long history of seeking quality retail development. I for one as a longtime resident of Prince George's County believe that it's been underserved, and it's only in recent years that we've seen some excellent development.

IANNUCCIWe're excited to have the Wegmans in Prince George's County, and one of the most successful Wegmans stores in the nation. We understand that. And with the buying power of Prince George's County, I remind our listeners that Prince George's County residents are comparative to national averages better educated and better compensated. So it's time that these quality developers look to Prince George's County and give our citizens what they need.

NNAMDIHere is Colleen in Hyattsville, Md. Colleen, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

COLLEENHi, Kojo. Thanks for having me. I live in the Hyattsville historic district, which is just a few blocks over from the Riverdale Park. And I was calling because I think I speak for a lot of the young families in this neighborhood that a lot of us have moved here from different areas that are better served. I know my family moved from Northern Virginia from Arlington, actually. And when we moved here, many of the families have someone who works (unintelligible) or at the University or the University of Maryland.

COLLEENAnd we're used to having more amenities and we’re so excited to hear that that might be coming to our neighborhood because we currently drive to Montgomery County for things like this. One of the things that's most frustrating to me is that people are saying, well, the traffic is too bad. As somebody who lives and shops at the Clarendon Whole Foods, I can tell you about small streets and lots of traffic, it's important to pony up and say what can we do to make our community better? How can we accommodate this?

COLLEENDo we need to improve the road infrastructure? Personally, I would be happy to -- I don't know -- look for a bond or pay in someway to improve the infrastructure in our community so that we could support better things because I know...

NNAMDIOK.

COLLEEN...that the demand is here. And I think it's really important to look at it from a perspective of how can we make this work?

NNAMDIOK.

COLLEENAnd not just (unintelligible) problem.

NNAMDIAllow me to have Vernon Archer respond because you have been holding hearings on this, Vernon Archer, a variety of public hearings. Have you heard that point of view in the debate at all?

ARCHERAbsolutely. Absolutely. And I want to start out by saying that we're flattered and excited about the fact that Whole Foods is interested in Riverdale Park. And there's a very good reason. Riverdale Park is a great location for them. You know, there are issues -- a number of issues that have been brought up. And it's going to take a lot of work to, you know, bring this kind of developer -- excuse me, this kind of amenity to our area.

ARCHERBut, yes, we remain committed to figuring out a way to bring these kinds of entities into the general area. There are particular issues with the Cafritz property that have to be worked out. And, Kojo, if you don't mind my saying, I think it's a little bit inaccurate to say that it's a vacant lot waiting to -- for a development. Right now, it's stated for -- or slated for single-family housing development.

ARCHERSo step one even to be able to consider bringing them in, we've got to rezone it. And so that's we are right now is figuring out what kind of zoning will work for this whole 38 acres, not just the couple of acres that will have to have the Whole Foods.

NNAMDIAnd we have callers on the line who would like to talk about that zoning issue. But I'd like to take a short break. And we'll return to this conversation about Whole Foods coming to Prince George's County. If you'd like to join it, call us, 800-433-8850. If the lines are busy, you can go to our website, kojoshow.org, bring the conversation there. What does Whole Foods signify for you? 800-433-8850. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation about a Whole Foods coming to Prince George's County. We're speaking with Vernon Archer, mayor of Riverdale Park, where the Whole Foods will be located. David Iannucci is a senior member of the Economic Development and Public Infrastructure Team in the office of Prince George's County Executive Rushern Baker. Roland Stephen is a contributor to the website Greater Greater Washington.

NNAMDISarah Starrett is a community activist and a resident of University Park, the community immediately adjacent to the proposed development. And joining us now by phone is Cynthia Finley, a community activist and resident of Calvert Hills, one of the communities to the north of the proposed Cafritz development. Cynthia Finley, thank you for joining us.

MS. CYNTHIA FINLEYThank you for having me.

NNAMDIWhen a development -- when a new development is proposed in a community, we often hear from people who sense that their communities or their way of life are threatened. People who favor a new development are not always inclined to show up at a meeting or a protest even if they may outnumber the opponents. You got involved in this issue on the pro side. How come?

FINLEYWell, I went to the first public meeting that was held in University Park this summer and follow a lot of the people that were opposed to the meeting. And although I understand that change can be hard, I think that this change would be very positive for our communities that are immediately surrounding this proposed development. So I wanted to be sure that the voices of the people who support the project were heard as well.

NNAMDIAnd why do you support the project?

FINLEYI think it would be a great asset to our community. As we've already heard from Colleen who called in earlier, this type of retail is severely lacking in our part of Prince George's County. We'd like to have a good place to go grocery shopping that’s a little different than the other grocery stores that are around. We'd like to see the other retail and amenities that would be a part of this project. And we think it would be great to have this nearby.

FINLEYAlthough a lot of people are afraid of the traffic it would bring, it could also reduce the car trips for those of us that live near it. We wouldn't have to drive so far to do this type of shopping.

NNAMDIYou know, Roland Stephen, a lot of people would approve of the Whole Foods if it didn't come with the 995 new homes.

STEPHENI think that's true. And I think that we need to really grasp this nettle. Limitations on land use and on density in residential development lead to a high cost of housing for people in the northeast United States and other parts of the country. That's bad for poor people and that's bad for growth. So we need to understand that whatever we have land use restrictions and whatever kind we have, and there are many and there are good reasons for them, but that is going to raise the percentage of your income that goes to housing.

STEPHENAnd that’s different in some other parts of the country. You wanna know why some other parts of the country are growing a little more rapidly often? That’s because they have different land use conditions.

NNAMDIDavid Iannucci.

IANNUCCIWe talk about smart growth and everyone acknowledges the need to have dense population near mass transit to reduce our carbon imprint and essentially have a healthier lifestyle. But sometimes, when the economic reality kind of faces the folks, they shy away from it. Everyone wants to live on a suburban cul-de-sac. Many people do that and have a wonderful lifestyles, but the fact is we're running out of space. We're worried about our environment.

IANNUCCIWe have a great mass transit system in the region and we have the coming Purple Line, which is the very important to Prince George's County. It makes sense, from an economic development strategy, to try to locate our denser development, our -- frankly a more quality retail when you can take advantage of Metro Purple Line and the type of development you have in this part of the county.

IANNUCCISo it is not always what -- when someone is settled in their home and enjoys their lifestyle, we understand why that may be a challenge. But from a county standpoint, from an infrastructure standpoint, in order to deal with our expenses of building roads and sewer lines and out to suburban areas or rural areas, and we have to concentrate our resources in this type of community.

NNAMDISarah Starrett, what do you say to that?

STARRETTWell, Kojo, I completely agree that, you know, smart growth make sense in dense developments where we have Metro Stations make sense. We supported the University Town Center Development, which is above and across the street from the Prince George's Plaza Metro. Unfortunately, that development, you know, was owned for a retail grocery store, and the retail grocery store never moved in. And I understand that the developers have declared bankruptcy.

NNAMDIYeah, they're closing my theatres, but that's another story.

STARRETTYes. We also are supporting the East Campus development in College Park, which is around -- and close to walking distance to the College Park Metro Station. Unfortunately, this proposal is not on either Metro station. I mean, we really wish that it would be on a Metro station, and we would suggest very strongly that Whole Foods consider moving in to the vacant space at University Town Center, which is across the street from Prince George's Plaza. The infrastructure is already there. We also would (unintelligible) ...

NNAMDIWell, allow me to interrupt at that point and ask David Iannucci what's wrong with that.

IANNUCCIWell, in fact, this center -- I think the mayor can help me with this. This location is very close to the College Park Metro Station, and it's possible to see a connection on the east side of the property that would serve and be -- close to the College Park M Square Research Park and the development there.

ARCHERRight. And in fact, that's one of those details that we feel has to worked out with the developers, some form of east side access to the property, which would be across the CSX rail line over to the M Square development. The University of Maryland has already done some very major office park development over there, and this would also, as you say, connect to the College Park Metro Station.

IANNUCCIAnd the Purple Line goes there too.

ARCHER(unintelligible) Purple Line that we expect to have coming in in a few years.

NNAMDIOnto the telephones, here is David in University Park, Md. David, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DAVIDHi, Kojo. Thanks for having me on. I live just about across the street from the property in University Park and across Route 1 at the first traffic light where people would be trying to get away if traffic's backed up. But I generally -- I think we're fortunate to be able to discuss things like these when the national economy is in such bad shape. And as a PG County resident for 20 years, I'm glad we're getting this kind of thing.

DAVIDThe rezoning request says that it is closer to the Metro station now, and I commuted by foot to that Metro. It's about two-thirds of a mile, and this proposed development is just about a full mile.

NNAMDIBy the way, people who go to our website, kojoshow.org, can see a map of the area so you can understand what's juxtaposed with what, but go ahead, please.

DAVIDYeah. Thank you. So I think there needs to be a commitment on transportation to the Metro station from any proposed development. And also that east-west overpass over the CSX tracks to River Road -- I know this is kind of in the details -- that has to be completely nailed down before they really allow anything, or you really will have serious traffic problems. And I guess my last comment is more to Mr. Iannucci.

DAVIDI'm real concerned about the UTC development, that seemed like just the right kind of thing, and it's not working. It's failing, and I wouldn't want to see anything done that would cannibalize off of that in terms of the restaurants. The thing is on life support, so I think that there needs to be an overall economic development approach, which in the long run could lead to some good, high-density, transit-dependent development with quality amenities.

NNAMDIOK. Here's David Iannucci. The reference to UTC was the University Town Center development.

IANNUCCIAnd this is a project that has -- had a lot of success. There's a large federal presence there. There is a retail presence. The theatres that you mentioned are obviously not working. There's student housing there that serves both Catholic University and the University of Maryland, and there's some retail. It has been a victim of these very difficult economic times, but it was -- it's a very bold move.

IANNUCCIIt's a very exciting project, and we know the developer is looking for ways as it's come out of bankruptcy -- or coming out of bankruptcy to revitalize that. We see these projects. This is an excellent point. The competition standpoint is one of the issues that is raised.

IANNUCCIAnd when people talk about this project, everything from the East Campus to the University Town Center and to other development in the area, that's the part of what you get when you have, you know, an educated, urban, well-compensated population surrounding a university, surrounding the other employment centers we have in this area. All of these centers can over time mature and be great success but...

NNAMDIHow about the suggestions that David makes about transportation from the Metro?

IANNUCCII wouldn't disagree at all with that. It makes a plenty of sense to look for connections between the Metro and the Purple Line in this. Whether that's a shuttle or making sure there are pedestrian walkways or actually a road connection, I think those are all things that we all agree that have to be addressed.

ARCHERAbsolutely. And I would suggest that...

NNAMDIThis is Vernon Archer.

ARCHER...that on the feedback that we're giving the developer, that is the town of Riverdale Park, is that these are exactly the kinds of issues that we have to reach agreement on in order to move forward. We've got to make certain that the -- there are unique and new ways of handling the traffic have got to be worked out.

ARCHERWe have to work out these other infrastructure issues as well as what are the zoning benchmarks, at what point would we be willing to go forward with the more dense residential development as well as the commercial properties is clearly going to be hinged on benchmarks that are related to better connections whether they are new roads, whether they are shuttles, bus lines, et cetera, to make sure...

NNAMDIGlad you brought up the zoning issue -- David, thank you for your call -- because that's what Ellen in University Park would like to talk about. Ellen, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ELLENYes. Thank you for having me today, Mr. Nnamdi. You know, what I really want to focus onto is that this is not a Whole Foods issue. As a matter of fact, I just stopped by Whole Foods on the way to work this morning to pick up some organic whole grain bread. This is really a zoning issue and the problems that will be caused with our traffic because of the limited points of vehicular access. Mr. Iannucci stated previously that there are Metro stations. No, there's none.

ELLENThere is a Metro station somewhat near the property. But using surface streets, it's .8 of a mile to get there. That's farther than most people are gonna be willing to walk with their groceries. Proponents have indicated that we should permit the development and then fix the traffic problem in an already failing intersection.

ELLENIf we can fix the traffic problems, developers should adjust the site plan to reflect vehicular access on the east side of the property. And I think that then, the Cafritz family would see a significant shift in the opposition. Thank you.

NNAMDII'd like to hear you comment on that, Roland Stephen.

STEPHENAs I understand it and I was at the Riverdale meeting on Thursday, the cost of road, bridge or some kind of access over CSX who does not have a property right to the air, which is a very small detail but an important one apparently, is much more -- much better than originally suspected. And I got the impression from the developers and Mr. Mayor, you'd be someone I wanna hear about on this, that they would be willing even to undertake that without support from other agencies or other entities.

ARCHERRight. I can't comment on whether or not they are willing to do that or not. We're working that out, but there are several improvements already in the works. Cafritz or no Cafritz for the intersection at Kenilworth, excuse me, at 410 and Baltimore Avenue. And, in fact, we're gonna be hearing from the State Highway Department this evening at our town meeting about improvements there.

ARCHERSo we anticipate an improved situation. Again, Cafritz or no Cafritz, and then it does appear that we are likely to have a -- east connection across the railroad tracks is going to be, you know, fairly likely to be workable. The devil's in the details. We're ways from it though.

NNAMDIWe got an email from Jack who says, "What developers of the Cafritz property are fond of saying is that their proposed development is transit-oriented, but it is not. It is more than half a mile from the closest Metro station. The close-by MARC station has only approximately 10 trains per day, and the Purple Line is not yet built. I believe that the project should be evaluated under the assumption that all traffic from the proposed development would be motorized." More about that later.

NNAMDIBut Jack goes on, "You may also ask the speaker from University Park," that would be you, Sarah Starrett, "whether she would favor reopening Queens Chapel Road through University Park in order to accommodate some of the excess traffic she is so concerned with."

NNAMDI"University Park closed Queens Chapel Road, which was a very large road and a major artery to the Michigan Avenue corridor before University Park closed it, shunting a lot of traffic to the East-West and to Route 1. My property in College Park is immediately adjoining the proposed development," said Jack. Sarah, what do you say to that?

STARRETTWell, Kojo, I didn't live in University Park when that whole issue was debated. It was extremely controversial at the time, and I don't think anyone wants to reopen that controversy. I will say though that one of the issues here is that this property is landlocked. There is the Calvert Hills consumer who spoke earlier, Cynthia.

STARRETTShe said that she would like to shop there, but unfortunately, there's gonna be no way for her to get to this proposed development from her house, because they proposed to completely wall off the northern access to College Park, which would be the direct access to those houses in the Calvert Hills development.

STARRETTCurrently, there is no proposal for any access from 410 East-West Highway, which is a major East-West thoroughfare. And we just see that as, you know, a huge problem, because you're gonna put all of this traffic, a huge amount of traffic and all of these, you know, thousands of people who are gonna live in these high rise apartment buildings, plus the people, you know, going in and out of this hotel and these restaurants and all of this other stuff that they have told us that they're looking forward to building.

STARRETTYou know, it's all gonna dump onto a single intersection at the -- not even at the corner and the middle of Route 1 where it crosses -- would cross into East-West, sorry, would cross into Van Buren Street, which is the neighborhood street. So we think that access from the rear, access across the railroad tracks, access to the north, access to the south, all of those things would be really good, will be much, much better than having a single access point dumping all that traffic onto Van Buren.

STARRETTQueens Chapel Road, you know, doesn't intersect with this development in any way, shape or form, so I don't think that reopening Queens Chapel would do anything to get people in and out of Whole Foods except, you know, put more cut-trough traffic in the middle of our community, which we are absolutely opposed to.

NNAMDICynthia Finley, how do you feel about all of this? Clearly, advocates are worried about this current and plan and all the traffic entering and exiting the property on one road, Route 1. How do you feel about it?

FINLEYWell, the developer is working on the other access points as well, the crossing over this, CSX railroad tracks and entrance from the south through Riverdale Park on Maryland Avenue or Rhode Island Avenue. So that is something that they're already addressing, and it seems like they'll be successful moving forward with those additional access points.

FINLEYI'm not sure what Sarah meant by walling off the northern access to the property. My neighborhood is immediately north of the Cafritz property. There is a buffer strip between the property and my neighborhood, which is owned by (word?). The Metro tunnel goes under that.

FINLEYThere is a hiker-biker trail that is already going through that buffer zone into Cafritz property, and it would definitely try to be developed further, paved completely and made wider, so that people from neighborhood could access the Whole Foods and that entire development on that trail. There are many of us that already walk to the Metro every day or bike to the Metro stops every day.

FINLEYWe walk into downtown College Park. We avoid our cars as much as possible. And even if we do have to drive to Whole Foods, we -- those of us that are in the areas north of the Cafritz property will not be going through this intersection that everybody's talking about, the Route 1 and East-west Highway intersection.

FINLEYWe would be missing that entirely. So I don't think that these issues are such a big hurdle to overcome for this development. Also, with the residences that are proposed for development. That's a lot of customers that would be added right there. And we've seen in the Hyattsville Arts District, which is about 5 minutes south of this property on Route 1, it's been a tremendous success. You ever see Town Center was mentioned earlier. It's a development that has not taken off and done well, but the Hyattsville Arts District is bustling.

FINLEYThe townhomes there, I think, are pretty much full. They are attractive. They're definitely a good visual beautifying point to that community, and the restaurants and retail there is doing fantastic. It's almost impossible to find a parking spot if you do try to drive down there at night. So I think our area is definitely ready for this, and we're ready for the residential component, as well as the retail component. The people would like to live here. We have beautiful neighborhoods, beautiful communities, and it would be great to get more people living there.

NNAMDICynthia Finley, thank you very much for joining us.

FINLEYThank you.

NNAMDISarah Starrett, thank you very much for joining us.

STARRETTThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIDavid Iannucci, the emailer Jack said, "I believe that the project should be evaluated under the assumption that all traffic from the proposed development would be motorized." What's wrong with that assumption?

IANNUCCIWell, I don't know that it's true, and I won't pretend that I'm an expert on all the traffic projections. I know that there are traffic studies that are underway now, but I don't necessary think that it's accurate. I'll point out that the -- many citizens of the communities around the site are right now, they're having to get in their cars for the most part and drive to grocery stores somewhere else. And County Executive Baker and all of us in economic development know that grocery stores are a critical amenity for communities.

IANNUCCIIn addition to things like public safety and schools, people want to be able to have close by retail with grocery amenities. Those stores right now, they have to drive north or south out of Route 1 or -- of Route 1. So I think potentially, we're looking at, in some cases, a reduction of traffic by people who aren't going to Whole Foods right now in Montgomery County or Anne Arundel County or, in fact, aren't having to drive five or six miles outside of their areas in University Park and Riverdale Park.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue this conversation on Whole Foods in Prince George's County, specifically in Riverdale Park. If you have already called, stay on the line. We'll try our best to get to your call, but the lines all seemed to be filled. So if you wanna communicate with us now, send us an email to kojo@wamu.org, a tweet, @kojoshow, or go to our website, kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWe're talking about Whole Foods coming to Riverdale Park in Prince George's County with Vernon Archer. He's the mayor of Riverdale Park. David Iannucci is a senior member of the Economic Development and Public Infrastructure team in the office of Prince George's County Executive Rushern Baker. Roland Stephen is a contributor to the website Greater Greater Washington.

NNAMDIAnd joining us now on the telephone is Ralph Bennett. He is one of the architects and consultants working on this project for the Cafritz developers. Ralph Bennett, from what you've been hearing so far, what would you like to say?

MR. RALPH BENNETTKojo, thanks. It's a great show. Fair and balanced and I see arguments on both sides, and it's terrific to hear it. I’d like to point out a couple of features of the development, proposed development that I think are really important. The first is that the underlying zoning of single-family detached houses just seems like a very shortsighted way to go on a side like this, particularly given the fact that aside from Riverdale Park Town Center at the MARC Station, there really is no focus.

MR. RALPH BENNETTAnd one of the major purposes of this development is to provide a kind of a focus, retail focus that's convenient to the surrounding three communities. On the issue of connectivity, this is a huge question for us, of course. And in fact, Calvert Hills is not walled off. We want the connection. We think the hiker-biker is absolutely critical, and it was very clear from the beginning that automobile connection was gonna be problematic.

MR. RALPH BENNETTSo -- but we are eager to make connections to the north and, of course, to the west across Route 1 through the new Van Buren Street that we proposed to make on the site to make that a center for University Park and, of course, for Riverdale Park. We want to make a really direct connection down to the Riverdale Park Town Square. But coming through the question of the larger scale is really important. The caller who pointed out Queens Chapel Road might also pointed out to Clagett Road, which used to go under the tracks and make connectivity to the east from College Park.

MR. RALPH BENNETTNow, East-West Highway is unique, north to Paint Branch Parkway, as a connection to get east across the tracks to go east. So there's been a systematic reduction and connectivity through time, which of course, makes these intersections enormously taxed. So the team is acutely aware of this. We're looking forward to trying to make a connection to the east, and we're making connections south to Riverdale Park. And so many of these concerns are valid, and the team is very conscious of them and working hard to solve them.

NNAMDIIf you can, stay on the line. We might need you to answer a few more questions as I go to the telephones. There are a lot of people who would like to address this issue. We will start with Angela in Hyattsville, Md. Angela, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ANGELAYes. Hello, gentlemen. Maybe this comment is directed to Mr. Bennett in particular. My issue is parking. I'm a traveling massage therapist, and so I try to get amenities where I can. And so I'm always in my car until I immediately need to get into a parking space. So I see things all throughout the Washington Metropolitan Area. In fact, I work in Clarendon. And that Whole Foods, actually, is very efficient because, one, they have quasi-ample parking, but they have parking.

ANGELABut they have a traffic parking attendant who makes things, you know, the cars coming in and out very efficiently. But my main issue, as an example, right there on Route 1 where Andy Shallal's new Busboys and Poets is located. There's a couple of other businesses around there. Those places aren't even popular yet and the parking is horrific already, and they're not even popular.

ANGELAThere seems to be this trend where they build these housing developments with the amenities and such, but there's no ample parking. Hopefully, that's something that could be addressed, and I'll take my answer off the air.

NNAMDIBefore Jeff Bennett responds to that, I have an email from Randy, who's a resident of University Park, who says, "The current site plan shows a freestanding store with a large surface parking lot. This is not a model for integrated sustainable development. Several of the recent Whole Foods developments have a store at the base of a residential development with parking below grounds, such as at Foggy Bottom and in Alexandria. This freestanding store is what is shortsighted." Now, Jeff Bennett, your turn. Ralph Bennett, your turn.

BENNETTYeah. Well, I believe it was Colleen who pointed out the parking problems and, of course, we share the concerns about surface parking. On the other hand, Whole Foods knows how to organize their customers, and this is clearly an interest of theirs. And Route 1 has to be seen as absolutely in transition. I mean, as a person who works around the region -- I'm president of the Purple Line now and advocating for the Purple Line, whose stop will be only a quarter a mile from site.

BENNETTThe dependence on the automobile has got to be relieved in some way. And this site -- although the Metro stop is distant, there are at least six ways besides a private car to get access to the site and from the site. And the developers are considering additional measures to assist with that. So on one hand, we are providing parking, which will, I think, make this development convenient.

BENNETTAt the same moment, we understand that we need to provide alternatives to allow people to get to places doing other ways. And anyone who's driven in rush hour in this region knows that we have to find other ways to get around than the car.

NNAMDIDavid Iannucci, this email we got from Gene who says, "Everyone wants a great retail close to home, but the Prince George's County politicians are so hungry to attach their name to a sparkling new Whole Foods store, they're willing to agree to significant zoning changes without strong prior commitments around traffic and limitations of number of housing units. Few other municipalities are so willing to give away the store to developers. We feel like the poor stepsister and act like it." Does this have at all to do with the cache of Whole Foods, David Iannucci?

IANNUCCIWell, certainly, the cache of Whole Foods or Wegmans or some of these well-known national retailers are something that's exciting to Prince George's County. The county executive is taking this issue head on, and let's -- we're not gonna pretend that there isn't a reputation issue in the county that he has staked his term in office in terms of fighting it. And we've made great progress. We've brought in strong people.

IANNUCCIAnd this is a new Prince George's County. And this is a Prince George's County that wants to be seen to have its rightful place in the metropolitan area. But that's also a place that has a high-income population, a highly educated population and a population that deserves amenities. When you deal with a developer who brings a project such as Whole Foods, quite frankly, government can't always dictate the results. You have to work with a developer.

IANNUCCIYou have to work compromises that satisfy the community. But these developers are in this business to make money, and that's what America is all about. And in the compromise that you reach -- that will be reached, I can assure you that the country executive and either the county council are committed to the best possible result for the community but also for the county as well.

NNAMDIHere...

BENNETTKojo, I also would point out that there's no giveaway here. I started working with the developer of this project in 2005, and you know where we are in 2011. So this is not an easy project, and there's been an active conversation with the surrounding communities throughout this period.

NNAMDIRalph Bennett is one of the architects and consultants working on this project for the Cafritz developers. Ralph, thank you for calling in.

BENNETTThank you very much, Kojo. It's a great show.

NNAMDIWe move on to Leo in College Park, Md. Leo, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

LEOThanks, Kojo. It's hard to know which points to focus on, but one thing is that I'm very tired of this smug change-can-be-hard slogan that we keep hearing. We actually -- anyone who actually knows about the community, in contrast to, say, the authors of The Washington Post editorial, know that we're -- overwhelmingly, there's tremendous support for change. We want change. We want great retail, which doesn't have to be one particular retailer, but I think Whole Foods is welcome.

LEOWe -- for example, the Hyattsville Arts District, which Cynthia mentioned, just south of this site, incredibly successful, walkable, intelligent smart growth. And it took strips of crumbling, basically, abandoned empty store fronts and built something great out of it. We have a lot of sites like that in our area. That's what infill is about. That's what's smart growth is about, not cutting down 30 trees and putting up a parking lot and big strip mall and a hotel.

LEOWe don't necessarily need it. If you listen and you honestly listen too closely, what people are interested in is Whole Foods. You never hear anyone saying, yes, we need those 900 condos or whatever it is. If what we're looking for is a Whole Foods, let's find a Whole Foods. Let's put it near the College Park Metro Station. There are plenty of places where we can put all kinds of great retail.

LEOAnd this is -- it's not that people in the area are against development or against specific development that has major problems that we feel are really harmful to our community.

NNAMDIWhy would you say the residential development -- which, it is my understanding, is being built there precisely because of the location of a Metro station, and, ideally, that is where you should have dense development -- why would you be opposed to that?

LEOWhat you just said, I would not be opposed to, but a couple of things. One is I'm just saying there's not an outcry for more housing. There's a lot of housing that's been going up. But if there is, there are places where you can put it much closer to Metro. And I would encourage you, Kojo, take a ride out here 'cause people...

NNAMDII'm there all the time.

LEOOK, good. 'Cause people who actually live here are -- it's a joke when they talk about how transit-accessible it is. Yes, we can make it more transit-accessible, but that -- it basically pulled out all of the buzzwords for smart growth to try to fix this thing in a way that's very different from what it is. And what it is is about -- I mean, they tried this a few years ago, and what they noticed was that the only traction they got was when they said Whole Foods, people's eyes would light up.

NNAMDISo this is really, in your view, about the residential development.

LEOPardon me. Yes. So, of course, yeah, if you're gonna build residential development, building it near a Metro station is, of course, a smart idea. That's part of smart growth, absolutely. I don't think you'll get any argument from anyone about that.

NNAMDIFirst you, David Iannucci.

IANNUCCIWell, you're right. There's no argument on that point. The housing part of it, those issues have to be addressed. The number of units have to be addressed, and all these site access issues are very appropriate. It's part of the discussion. Whole Foods always is clearly the attention-getter.

IANNUCCIWhen we look at building a community, a group of communities having quality groceries, retail, access to Metro -- all these things come together to build around a large employment center, and that will give us location where people will have great employment opportunities, a chance to put their kids to great schools and a chance to enjoy the quality of life that goes with it. We're committed to that. The county executive is committed to that. And these are -- but there are hard questions that we will work through in the next couple of years.

NNAMDIRoland, you recently moved to Prince George's County. Why?

STEPHENWell, because of the University of Maryland. The talent in my family, my wife, has an appointment there. So we brought the whole family up there, and we like it very much. But I was struck. Having moved from a very rapidly growing part of the United States, the Research Triangle in North Carolina, I'm struck by the anxiety attendant on growth. You know, they don't have growth in Detroit, Mich., right.

STEPHENAnd if you don't got it, it's -- in the long run, that's a challenge for your community. And I think there are worse things than having new development along your main arteries. Certainly, you wanna bargain, and I think the mayor of Riverdale will be a good bargainer for the best deal for your community and the other communities likewise. But, nevertheless, I think I wanna return to this question of the residential because that's really what's driving opposition.

STEPHENEveryone is gonna go shop at the Whole Foods, no matter what they say. They don't want other people in single-family housing or retirees in dense location on that site. They think it's gonna change the character of the community. Well, I'm sorry, but I, you know, I think we should be open to that. That's gonna lower the cost of housing. That helps people live and prosper in the long run, and we need to be candid about that.

NNAMDIHere is Jennifer in University Park, Md. Jennifer, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JENNIFERYes. I live at the corner of 44th Avenue and "New Van Buren Street," one house off of Route 1. I'd like to know what's being -- I'd like to know how these folks address the homes that are gonna be -- significantly impact the homes right down Route 1, the homes and the blocks between 44th Avenue and Route 1. What can you tell me -- I mean, how can you tell me that this is going to increase my property value when we're gonna have years of construction, we're gonna have trucks delivering...

NNAMDIYou think it's gonna lower your property values?

JENNIFERYes. I think it's gonna lower my property value.

NNAMDII don't know. What do you say to that, Vernon Archer?

ARCHERWell, I certainly can't address any one house or any -- you know, a few dozen houses. The evidence, regionally and nationwide, is overwhelming that it's going to increase property values in the general area. University Park, as a whole, will increase. Riverdale Park, College Park will increase. Those immediately in the -- you know, one block away, a few houses away, I'm certainly not an expert. I wouldn't be able to comment on that.

NNAMDIOut of time. I'd like to have talk about the economic development investment fund, but we're having Rushern Baker on, so we'll talk about it then. We're out of time right now. David Iannucci is a senior member of the Economic Development and Public Infrastructure team in the office of County Executive Rushern Baker. David, thank you for joining us.

IANNUCCIThank you.

NNAMDIVernon Archer is the mayor of Riverdale Park. Thank you for joining us.

ARCHERThank you.

NNAMDIRoland Stephen is a contributor to the website Greater Greater Washington. Glad you could join us. And thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.