MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Last week, we brought together Afghans in Kabul and Americans in Washington, D.C. We will hear excerpts from that event in a moment and we will update you on what's going on in Kabul this week.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE 1To my knowledge of this war, the most find terrorist attacks in the 10 years...

NNAMDIWe'll hear from Kabul later in the broadcast. But first, a decade ago, the U.S. toppled the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. But as the U.S. prepares to withdraw its troops, it's still not clear what victory looks like. Coordinated attacks by Taliban insurgents in Kabul this week threatened high-profile targets including the U.S. embassy.

NNAMDIAnd at our discussion last week, the central question remained. Can the Afghan government provide stability and security for the country? Everyone agreed that dollars aside, the human cost of war has been great on both sides. Thousands killed or wounded, millions of lives disrupted, and now Joined by War: A Decade of Conflict in Afghanistan.

NNAMDIJoining us in our Washington location in the campus of American University is Bob Kinder. He is the senior vice president of international relations at Drop Test International. That's a private consulting firm that advises the U.S. military and the international community on counter-insurgency and counter terror activities. He's a retired military officer who spent a total of six years in Iraq and Afghanistan. He left the military in 2005 after 23 years of service. Bob Kinder, thank you so much for joining us.

MR. BOB KINDERThank you for having me here.

NNAMDIAlso with us is Anna Berlinrut. She is the mother of a Marine officer who deployed to Afghanistan in May of 2011. She's a member of the organization, Military Families Speak Out, which is an organization of people who have relatives serving in the military and who are against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Anna is from Maplewood, New Jersey, where she is a legal secretary. Anna Berlinrut, thank you so much for joining us.

MS. ANNA BERLINRUTThank you for having me.

NNAMDINow allow me to introduce our host in Kabul. He is Khalid Mafton, the media officer of the Open Society Institute's Kabul office. Born and raised in Kabul. He previously worked as the bureau chief for DPA, a leading German news agency in Afghanistan. He was also a correspondent for Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty in Prague, The Czech Republic. Khalid Mafton will have opening remarks and he will now introduce his guests in Kabul. Khalid?

MR. KHALID MAFTONKojo, man, thanks for a nice introduction. It is an honor to be here today. And I'm very happy to have you guys there. For today's panel, we have two people here. One is Abdul Salam Rahimy, who's currently the director general of Saba Media Organization, a Kabul-based nonprofit media organization. Between 2003 and 2004, he served as finance recruiting minister. Prior to this, Mr. Rahimy served as the spokesperson of Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission.

MR. KHALID MAFTONIn 2002, he was also a member of the Emergency Loya Jirga or Grand Assembly to which President Karzai was elected as the head of the transitional administration. From 1991 until 2001, Mr. Rahimy served as director of coordination and humanitarian assistance and Afghan (word?) which would provide health and agricultural services in 10 provinces across Afghanistan.

MR. KHALID MAFTONAlso today, we have Hassina Sherjan. She is the founder and chief executive officer of Aid Afghanistan for Education and owner of Boumi Company. She returned to Afghanistan in December 2001 from the United States. She is the co-author of "Passing It Out" in Afghanistan and published various op-eds for New York Times, Washington Post, Guardian and US Today. Miss Sherjan received her master of public administration from Harvard Kennedy School in 2011.

NNAMDIAnd now, I'll start with you, Anna. In Afghanistan, it's Afghan civilians who have borne the brunt of the war in the years of brutal Taliban rule. Here in the U.S., the war's kind of far away, but for some, it's still very real. The majority of those affected here are the soldiers and their families. Anna Berlinrut, you have a son currently deployed in Afghanistan, how has the war affected you as a mother?

BERLINRUTAs a mother, it affects me every single day. This is my son's fifth deployment, but his first to Afghanistan. Every morning when I get to work, I turn on my computer and I check the numbers, how many were killed, how many more yesterday, how many from the area where my son is, what's happening there. Before he was married, when I came home, I would turn a corner and look in front of my house.

BERLINRUTWas there a vehicle there that could be from the Marines, giving me the worst news? Every time my doorbell rang, would it be two Marines standing there with the worst news? He's now married, so I'm not considered his next of kin, his wife would now hear the news, but I know how many tens of thousands have been wounded in these wars, how many, many, many more have come back with wounds that cannot be seen. And this is constantly in my mind.

NNAMDIBut you are from a military family. Your grandfather served. Your father served. Your son's father was a Vietnam veteran. What is there so different about this experience and this war you?

BERLINRUTFor me, I question, is this war necessary? Should we really have our troops over there now? Is this really making our country safer? Is it better for the United States? And to me, the answer has to be no.

NNAMDIBob Kinder, you spent several years in both Iraq and Afghanistan as a member of the military and later as a civilian adviser, what impact has this war had on you personally?

KINDERI've spent a total of six years between Iraq and Afghanistan in the last ten. And what I'd first like to recognize -- who I'd first like to recognize on the impact on me is Sergeant Jay Blessing (sp?) . On the 14th of November, 2003, Jay, a ranger, sergeant from 2nd Ranger Battalion, one of my men was driving his Humvee in Eastern Afghanistan, near the Pakistan boarder when an improvised explosive device detonated underneath his vehicle, directly under his front seat.

KINDERAnd when my men got to him, Jay had already passed away. He was, personally, my first casualty that I lost I the war on terror. And delivering the eulogy at Bagram Air Base for him was a very, very tough moment. I personally lost not only men and friends that are missing arms and legs, or blind, or have been killed in action, but we've also lost, many of us, our families due to multiple deployments. I was divorced several years ago and now living across the country from my wife and kids. But I was asked to do this and I volunteered to do this.

NNAMDII'll go now to our host in Kabul, Khalid Mafton, your turn.

MAFTONThanks. My first question refers to Mr. Rahimy. Do you think in the past ten years Afghanistan is better off today or worse off? And what will be the consequences if the international military forces leave Afghanistan?

MR. SALAM RAHIMYLast 10 years on the Afghan side, we had a lot of improvements, a lot of achievements. We have a government in place. We have a constitution. We have our armed forces now. They are functioning. The police, the Afghan army, the intelligence system, they are working. It is good news for Afghanistan because potentially when the international community withdraw from Afghanistan, we will have -- during this was under state and military site.

MR. SALAM RAHIMYNow we have education. Millions of girls go to school every day so that is an achievement. So we have some achievement during this period. I'm very sorry for the loss of lives of the international community and Afghans who lost their lives during this process. But our country will not be a better place if these sacrifices are not there. And to me I think it is the price we pay today it is cost of the war today.

MR. SALAM RAHIMYBut Afghanistan became that place when in early '90s international community totally withdraw and left this area to the mercy of those armed groups and different groups from all over the world. They came to Afghanistan. They made it a place from where they could do 9/11. The withdrawal of international forces from Afghanistan but this phase out should be very careful. If it is not planned and implemented properly, Afghanistan worse-case scenario can go back to square one and it will be a place which all the world will be harmed from again and again.

MAFTONThank you. I have a question for Ms. Sherjan. The Afghan government has been trying to negotiate with Taliban in the past few years. Do you think that the time is right to negotiate with Taliban and come to an agreement with them?

MS. HASSINA SHERJANI'm very happy to be here. Mr. Rahimy's comments was that the Afghans are taking responsibility, the military are taking responsibility, they're really trying. I can't say they are taking responsibility. They are trying to take responsibility. I don't believe that they are ready to take responsibility. Just recently, one of the explosions was assisted by one of the -- somebody was working within the Defense Ministry in Afghanistan.

MS. HASSINA SHERJANAnd I think many things have gone wrong, but one of the main things that has gone wrong was the fact that the government was not able to and it is still not to enforce laws. Also, we haven't been able to take ownership. We have allowed others to do everything for us basically. I mean this democracy has come in a box for us in Afghanistan. We didn't really fight for this democracy. There is a lot of focus on women in Afghanistan and we didn't allow women in Afghanistan to recognize their own struggles, challenges and organize a movement to fight for it.

MS. HASSINA SHERJANIt was all imposed. If we look at the women's movement in America, it took 72 years for women in America to be able to vote. So in fact, all of this focus on women in Afghanistan have created a lot of problems for us here. It has separated women. We have not been able to organize a strong movement against what is it that we want and we don't even know what is it that we want.

MS. HASSINA SHERJANWe do whatever has been imposed by the international community. And now back to the question about the Taliban and the reconciliation. This is a very important topic and I'm not really sure why suddenly we have been focusing so much on reconciliation. It seems like we failed on doing what we should have done, which was to educate the Afghans, to create jobs, to enforce laws, to make sure that they have a government that they can trust.

MS. HASSINA SHERJANSo we're now looking into reconciliation with the Taliban whom we are in a war with. Some people decide, somewhere, always outside of Afghanistan, there's a group of foreigners and then there's a group of Afghan foreigners who get together and decide what should be done for Afghanistan.

MS. HASSINA SHERJANI was asking a taxi driver, the other day, whether they want this, do they want a reconciliation? Do people want a reconciliation? You should have heard what he said. I mean, after really analyzing the whole situation in Afghanistan very well, within 10 minutes -- he also said that "We don't want to see feet and hands hanging on the trees again."

MAFTONThank you. Kojo Nnamdi, the floor is yours.

NNAMDIYou're listening to "Joined by War: A Decade of Conflict in Afghanistan." I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIYou're listening to "Joined by War: A Decade of Conflict in Afghanistan." I'm Kojo Nnamdi, where we have an audience in Washington, D.C. and an audience in Kabul, Afghanistan.

MAFTONPlease, introduce yourself to the audience, our guests in Washington, D.C.

RAHIMYGreetings all in Washington and good evening all in Killid group here. (unintelligible) and I'm a student of political science. And, first of all, I would convey my deepest condolence on the anniversary of 9/11. Of course, our heart goes to you. But, secondly, I would like to talk about killing Osama bin Laden or getting rid of (unintelligible) or droning (unintelligible), changed nothing.

RAHIMYOur sacrifices are still the same. Our civilian casualties are mounting. We are still suffering the same sorrows. So what are the next concrete steps? What should we do to change the course of war, to bring a new chapter into the history of Afghanistan?

NNAMDIBob Kinder?

KINDERAs you know, it's so convoluted, there in Afghanistan, there are many competing forces. The narcotics rings, the Taliban -- the Afghan Taliban, the Haqqani network. So the killing of UBL, of very prominent and important to the United States in our fight against al-Qaeda, it does not necessarily having the impact that we would like to see, the Afghan people would like to see there in Afghanistan.

KINDERSo I concur that we're touting this as a great success and it is against al-Qaeda and terrorism against the United States. Unfortunately, it does not translate, immediately, into the affects that you would like to see in Afghanistan.

NNAMDIAnd we have a member of our audience here in Washington. Go ahead, sir.

MR. MATTHEW JEWELMy name is Matthew Jewel, I live in Northern Virginia and I'm a recent graduate of Virginia Common Wealth University. I'd like to hear from our esteemed guests in Kabul about the new prescribed and imposed government that allegedly did not take any of its cues from the interests of the Afghan people. I'd like to hear what the affects of that new government has been on the Afghan people as a whole and especially on women in Afghanistan.

NNAMDIThis question is for one of your guests, Khalid, about the affect of the new government's policies in Afghanistan, in general and on women in particular. And I suspect that, I know, one of your guests will respond to the part about women, in particular.

SHERJANUnfortunately, the Afghan government have been taking too many advices from the internationals. We've had too many international advisors within ministries. One example is the ministry of higher education who has 12 strategies. Every time they have a new advisor, the advisor doesn't know what to do and he starts writing another strategy without looking at what was the previous strategy, a strategy that's never been used.

SHERJANI think, this whole approach of development in Afghanistan has been a very much of a Western approach. We need to talk to the Afghans and we need to use Afghans as advisors. We have very well educated Afghan people in Afghanistan who can very well advise their own ministries. There are very well educated Afghans abroad who would love to come and advise their ministries who lived in Afghanistan, grew up in Afghanistan, they understand the culture, they know what works and what doesn't work.

SHERJANIn the '60s and '70s, way before, in fact, earlier in the '60s before any women in America were involved in government, my own mothers aunt was the very first Afghan woman senator here. We had women in Parliament, we had women ministers in Afghanistan in the '60s and '70s. So it's not a new thing for Afghanistan, except those women work for it and they earned it and they owned it and they were qualified to do it.

NNAMDIWe have another question here in Washington, D.C. Go right ahead, please.

MS. ZORAMy name is Zora (sp?), I'm an Afghan-American, I was born in Afghanistan and moved to the states at a very young age. In the last five years, I've traveled back to Afghanistan three different times for different reasons. Once, for a three week period just to hang out and visit family. Second time for an economic development summit and a third time which was just last year, to perform a feasibility study.

MS. ZORAI worked for a multinational development agency that wanted to launch an operation there. And so in that feasibility research phase, I spent a lot of time with ministers, with the Presidents and CEO's of some of the larger multinational and national corporations, interviewed Presidents of universities and spent some time with the university students at multiple universities in Kabul.

MS. ZORAWhat I managed to gather from that study, is that it's not just whether the Army -- the national Army in Afghanistan is ready, it's not about whether the government, as a whole, is ready, it's whether the people are ready. The people that are the predominate age group in that country have seen nothing but war, they've seen nothing but instability. Many of them have been deprived of even primary education, forget advanced education.

MS. ZORAAnd what I gathered from individuals there, were that, the people that actually joined the workforce, they may have had some technical skills, they don't have management skills, they don't have leadership skills. The majority, 90 percent or more, of the director level or higher of any corporation or organization in Afghanistan were individuals from Pakistan or Hindustan, that were paid well over six figures or close enough to come and run these organizations in these companies.

MS. ZORASo, in conclusion, what I want to share is, I don’t think my country is ready and I can understand the perspectives of many people here about not continuing the war and I completely agree with that. But I think, there's much more work to do and it's going to take several decades for us to even get there.

NNAMDIIndeed, Anna Berlinrut, there are many Afghans who do not want the international community, including the U.S. military, to leave Afghanistan anytime in the near future. They're worried about what will happen to them and what will happen to their systems and their families when U.S. troops leave. You just heard an indication of that. What would you say to those people?

BERLINRUTI can understand the people and I certainly can but I don't think that we should be the world's police force. I am also very concerned that, just recently I've read that the Afghan army has a huge rate of people who leave, up to one in five annually leave. And there are no repercussions for them. And up to 35 percent walk away during harvest seasons, many come back but many do not.

BERLINRUTI don't really know that the Afghan army is going to be ready to take over in 2014 but even if they aren't, I think that our troops really need to come home.

NNAMDIWe have a question here from a member of the audience who can only be described as a veteran of these dialogues between Washington and Kabul. Elizabeth, go ahead, please.

ELIZABETHHi, my question is directed toward Hassina. And I know at the beginning, she was saying, the new government that they can't really help because they aren't asking Afghans what they want. I was wondering what, in her opinion, the -- what they should do, what the Afghans do want?

NNAMDIAnd, Elizabeth, how old are you?

ELIZABETHI’m 11.

SHERJANThank you, Elizabeth, for the question. What I was referring to is the fact that decisions are always made at a much higher level. And people are not involved in the decisions. Yes, we do have a Parliament. There are members of Parliaments, but do they really represent the Afghan people? We're not really sure. I think, there has to be a better system. There could be an organization that could go around and collect information from young people, like you and others, about, are they really happy right now?

SHERJANWhat is it that they would really want? How would they envision? If they have -- if we can create a vision for Afghanistan, what would that be? I think, if we can gather this information from the people, then we can really compare and see if the government is aligned with what the hopes and dreams of the Afghan people are or not. And we don't know that right now.

MAFTONI have a question from one of our audience in Kabul. Please, introduce yourself and...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE 2(Through interpreter) Hello, hello. My name is (word?) from Radio For Europe. I'm a reporter. My question for the mother who spoke for the first time, and we are really affected by that. And her son is actually a soldier in Afghanistan, we really appreciate it. My question is then, doesn't she think before she actually sends her son to a country where people actually dies, innocent people, civilian dies in a fight like that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE 2I actually want to ask that because with the NATO -- with the American help and the NATO insurgents, every day, civilian killings has been a daily routine in Afghanistan. How does she actually send her son to a country to actually where the fight kills innocent people?

NNAMDIAnna Berlinrut, the questioner wants to know, how could you send your son to a country where soldiers are killing innocent people?

BERLINRUTIt's very difficult. Soldiers, of course, do not want to kill innocent people. That's not what they're there for. They want to help the people of Afghanistan. They don’t want to do harm. They're there to do good, to help, to support the people and to give them the type of government that -- of democracy that they would hopefully like. I would certainly hope that my son never takes part in killing any innocents. And I know that that's not what he would want to do. And I know that that's not what any American troops want to do.

NNAMDIBut, Bob Kinder, innocent people have been killed in Afghanistan and there has been a significant amount of resentment in parts of the country where civilian members of the population have been killed.

KINDERThe Taliban and al-Qaeda have learned a tactic, to take over a compound with women, men and children inside of it and shoot at Afghan security forces, American Marines and American soldiers conducting their operations. As Americans, return fire or drop post air support on that compound, in the past, it is killed innocent civilians.

KINDERWhat General McChrystal did in 2009, is he instituted the tactic of -- and he asked President Obama to put more troops in on the ground so we could cover more terrain and to really only use close air support when it was absolutely necessary, when we could confirm that innocent women and children were not in those compounds.

KINDERAnd what that has done, that tactic, that counter insurgency tactic has caused the number of casualties of U.S. soldiers and Marines to go up. But it is absolutely necessary that we do that so we don't kill those women and children.

NNAMDIBack to you now, Khalid Mafton.

MAFTONKojo, I have a question for Bob Kinder, your panelist there. And since President Barack Obama came to power, the tension between the two governments, Afghan government from one side and the U.S. government from the other side has been very tough. They have been playing, kind of, blaming game. The Afghan government have clearly said that, if the U.S. military does not stop killing the civilian, he will practically, President himself, will practically join hands with Taliban.

MAFTONAnd there has been lots of other tension about the Kabul (word?) inefficiency of aid provided by the international community, especially the United States and the Afghan government in a way has accused them, you as government, for innate ineffectiveness. What is your suggestion for the two government of Afghanistan and United State, to address all these issues and come to an agreement and do something good for both nations, Afghans and Americans?

NNAMDIBob Kinder?

KINDERThat is a very good question you asked regarding the Karzai government and his outrages, personal outrage over civilian casualties. The American soldiers and Marines are outraged when civilians are killed also. And we clearly understood that. It took seven years, correction, eight years before we understood that, what the Taliban was using, how it was baiting us to drop bombs on their compounds and alienate the population from us.

KINDERKarzai's absolutely right, we cannot afford to lose the popular support of the Afghan people to international forces and they are trying to do good. When we kill civilians, it is not effective. So we put in more troops, President Obama has doubled the number of troops that we have in country, so we can effect that and not kill innocent civilians.

NNAMDIOkay, thank you very much. We do have a question here from a member of the audience, a question or comment. Go ahead, please, sir.

MR. LEE HILLINGMy name is Lee Hilling. I was interested in, Hassina's comment, that she's not sure that the Afghan Parliament represents the Afghan people's interests. That's another thing that we, in the United States, could share with the Afghan people, I think. But I have been traveling too and involved in Afghanistan since 2004. I work with the Aga Khan Development Network. And we're involved in a public, private partnership with the Afghan government, the French government and French NGO, La Chaine de l'Espoir, the Chain of Hope.

MR. LEE HILLINGAnd we've developed a hospital in Kabul, it's a pediatric hospital that's now performed over a 1,000 pediatric, cardiac, open heart surgery cases. And we have a vision, talk about a vision, key words that have been mentioned this morning. Too much, I think, has been focused on war. I'd like your thoughts about whether we should cease talking about war as much and talk more about development and partnerships and the possibility of this as being a new emphasis and a new vision that we should be adopting in Afghanistan.

NNAMDII'll put that first, in Washington, to Anna Berlinrut.

BERLINRUTI think that would be a great idea, if we could stop talking about war. But as long as the war is going on, I don't understand how we can send a lot of people to -- Westerns to help over there with all of the support that's necessary. I think that the Afghans can certainly build their own nation. I would love to stop talking about war. I'd love for it to be over.

NNAMDIAnd I'll send it to Kabul, to you Khalid Mafton, because I know that Hassina Sherjan was running a successful business in California and decided to go into a war situation in order to do the work that she is doing. So she may want to respond to our audience members point about whether or not we should be talking more about initiatives with civilians rather than talking about war.

MAFTONYeah, we have Hassina Sherjan who will comment about.

SHERJANOf course, the war is going on and we can't totally ignore the war and stop talking about it. But I think it's crucial and very important to talk about a vision, to talk about rebuilding the country, I mean, that's my mission. I hardly, really, talk about war. And I read the news but I understand that we have to do what we have to do to protect the country. I appreciate the international troops here but I think they also have a responsibility to be in Afghanistan.

SHERJANI personally, I'm more concerned about rebuilding Afghanistan, educating the people and moving forward. I think, failure is not an option for Afghanistan.

NNAMDIAnd Khalid Mafton you get the last question from your side because we are running out of time.

MAFTONWe have an audience who has a question. Please introduce yourself and refer your question to our guests here or in Washington.

JAMID(Through translator) My name is Jamid (word?) . I am a resident of Kabul. Today my question is -- my question from our guests in Washington. My question is, the presence of the U.S. Army in Afghanistan has raised a lot of questions in the world. I wanted to ask a question from our guest in Washington D.C. about the thought of the American civilians -- I wanted to get the civilians' perspective of the United States, about the presence of U.S. army in Afghanistan, and I would like to know what do American civilians think of the U.S. army and their presence in Afghanistan, if our guests comment on it in Washington D.C., please.

NNAMDIWell, here in Washington D.C. polls indicate that a majority of the American people would like to see the U.S. pull out of Afghanistan as soon as possible, and we have one of our guests here who -- we've been speaking with Anna Berlinrut who feels even more strongly than that.

BERLINRUTYes. Well, over 60 percent now of the American public want us -- want us to pull our troops out and bring them home. Very little is truly covered in the American press about the war the way that it's going on. That's what makes it so very difficult for military families. We don't feel as though the country is connected with the war at all. We feel that most of the people are concerned more about the cost of the war, rather than about the human factors for both the American troops and the Afghan people because the American Press just is not doing the job that they should be doing covering it.

NNAMDIAnd Bob Kinder, you're opinion may be a minority opinion, but it is an opinion that nevertheless should be heard.

KINDERI believe that the United States, with great power comes great responsibility. Ten years ago we entered Afghanistan with a very clear mandate to disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-Qaida and prevent Afghanistan from becoming a launching pad. We went in there with that mandate. We accomplished that task very early on. We allowed the Taliban to come in, all the great successes that our friends have job talked about, the surgeries that are going on in Kabul, the two million school girls that are now attending school that don't have the ability of the women here in this country to do so. We have a responsibility to those women, to those young girls, and to the Afghan people.

NNAMDII'd like to thank you all for participating in this dialogue, this conversation. Bob Kinder is the senior vice president of international operations at Drop Test International. Anna Berlinrut is the mother of a Marine officer who deployed to Afghanistan in May of 2011. She is a member of the organization Military Families Speak Out. Our Afghan guests, Hassina Sherjan is the founder and director of Aid Afghanistan for Education, a non-profit organization for empowering women and rehabilitating Afghanistan's educational system.

NNAMDIAnd Salam Rahimy is the director general of Saba Media Organization, and independent non-profit based in Kabul. You've been listening to Joined by War, a Decade of Conflict, a joint production of WAMU, America Abroad, and Radio Killid Afghanistan. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIYou've been listening to Joined by War, A Decade of Conflict, a joint production of WAMU, America Abroad, and Radio Killid Afghanistan. In the week since we recorded that event, Kabul has not been quiet. Coordinated attacks by insurgents shook a variety of targets including the U.S. Embassy and a NATO base. We reached out to my co-host for Joined by War, Khalid Mafton, in Kabul, to find out how he and Kabul fared and what's happening now. Khalid, can you tell us what happened earlier this week in Kabul?

MAFTONEarly Tuesday afternoon, a group of six armed men who were dressed with suicide vest and also they were equipped with light armed, also rocket-propelled grenade RPG. They occupied the upper floor of an incomplete (word?) higher building near the U.S. Embassy and began to attack the ISF headquarters and also the U.S. Embassy. Right after this attack, the police in different locations stopped the cars. There was traffic jams everywhere, and stopped normal life.

MAFTONAt the same time, two or three suicide bombers tried to detonate themselves at a place called (unintelligible) and -- which is close of the Afghan Parliament, which killed some police officers, policemen, and it wounded some civilians. At the same time, there was another suicide bomber at the Kabul airport and the police -- there are several factors behind this.

MAFTONOne of the main factors is the offer by the Afghan (unintelligible) offer by the Afghan government, which give (unintelligible) to the insurgents to be more active, more active than ever before. At the same time, there is new division. The Taliban insurgents and other insurgents affiliated with Taliban who either receiving support from Taliban inside the country or receiving support from neighboring countries like Pakistan.

MAFTONThey have a new division and that new division is Islamic values. Hamid Karzai released dozens of the suicide bombers and provided them with some kind of incentives to study inside Afghanistan or outside Afghanistan. They have this mentality, well, if we, the Taliban or the Muslims, commit suicide that's the mentality, we will go to paradise. If we are arrested, then we will simply be waived and we will have some incentives. That's one of the factors.

MAFTONThe other factor is that the Afghan security forces at large, they don't have any motivation because the Afghan president himself has frequently called the Taliban and other insurgents as his brothers. So this kind of call discouraged the Afghan security forces and simply did not perform their duties as required by the law. At the same time, the Afghan security forces have very little financial incentives.

MAFTONLet's say one of the Afghan police is killed. The compensation with the family of the victim (word?) they -- for example, a police is killed, it is just 10,000 Afghani which is a little bit more than 200 U.S. dollars. This kind of policies by the Afghan government towards the Taliban, and the least incentive provided to the Afghan security forces discourage from one side the Afghan security forces, and at the same time the administration offer, the reconsideration offer, the amnesty offer to the Taliban and other insurgents who are conducting terrorist activities in Afghanistan on a daily basis.

NNAMDIWell, Khalid, the U.S. forces are on a timetable to withdraw from Afghanistan, so what does this say about security and the ability of the Afghan police and army to step up and take over?

MAFTONIn the past few months, we have experienced multiple organized pre-managed attacks by the Taliban and other insurgents, not only in Kabul, but also in other provinces, including northern Afghanistan. I think within the timetable set for transition, I think the Afghan security forces are not really psychologically, morally, in terms of training, so I -- I strongly believe that the Afghan security forces will not be able to take over security responsibility in a short time. Maybe in 10, 20 years they will be able, but not at this stage.

NNAMDIDo people fear that this incident, demonstrating that the Taliban is reasserting it's power, not just in the provinces, but in the capital, is an indication that the moment that U.S. and NATO forces and UN forces leave that the Taliban stands ready to retake the capital?

MAFTONYou know, if you ask any Afghan, ordinary Afghan, in any part of the country, they have this strong feeling that the moment the (word?) troops leave the country, the alternative of the current government is no one else but Taliban who handled the country for nearly five years and did whatever they wanted. People are now worried that if the international troops leave the country, they will be simply a victim of the Taliban regime once again.

MAFTONAnd what they experienced ten years ago, they will experience again. And now the Afghan government, from one side of the international community from the other side is offering the Taliban to and make a (word?) which they have always rejected. This gives the kind of psychological support for people living in rural areas that today the Afghan government plus the international community is ready to talk with the Taliban.

MAFTONSo it means tomorrow Afghanistan will be ruled by Taliban, not with the current administration or the international community, so why not joining the Taliban today rather than tomorrow. So these all factors joining hands together gives Taliban an upper hand to be more active and be more organized, and at the same time discourage Afghan security forces from one side and Afghan people to be pessimist about the future.

NNAMDIKhalid Mafton, do you think that that is why this happened now? Do you think that it is related to that reconciliation being discussed between the government and the Taliban? Is that why it was time just to happen right now?

MAFTONCan you repeat your question again, your voice was broken completely.

NNAMDIWhy do you think this happened now? Do you think it is related to the reconciliation that you talked about between the government and the Taliban that's being discussed?

MAFTONFirst of all, as we talk about negotiation and consolation, there has been no negotiation between the Afghan government and the Taliban at all. Of course, there was a high peace consulate established by President Karzai to stop that kind of negotiation with the Taliban. There have been some individuals within this high peace council who have talked with some bomb groups or some Taliban member to give them some kind of incentives, but if we talk about an option negotiation that has never happened between the Afghan government and the Taliban.

MAFTONSecondly, the Afghan government is offering negotiation and (word?) with the Taliban from a point of weakness, not strength. This, of course, gives the Taliban a fresh political power, not to negotiate, and if we go through the history of Taliban, they have never been engaged with any kind of negotiation. When they have the power, they fight, and when they are weak, they simply hide. And it's very easy in Afghanistan to hide because most of the Taliban are dressed the way people in living in rural areas, especially in south or eastern Afghanistan, because that is (unintelligible) people were wearing and it's very easy to hide themselves.

MAFTONAnd I think that the Taliban, at least morally and spiritually and psychologically are in a stronger position. They have the upper hand in this conflict. At this stage, they are not ready. The Taliban at the same time are trying to accelerate their attacks in order to force the Afghan government to accept their conditions which withdrawal -- complete withdrawal of U.S. troops and international troops from Afghanistan is one of their main demand.

MAFTONIf it is accepted, it means that we, the Afghan people will be again ruled by the Taliban which means another catastrophe for the Afghan people.

NNAMDIKhalid, what is the mood in Kabul today, and what are people saying they expect to see next?

MAFTONFirst they want (word?) take place (unintelligible) of Afghans in Kabul are completely distracted. I personally was unable to join my family for let's say seven or eight hours. Like me, they were thousands of people who were stuck in different places and were not able to join their families. Some stayed with their neighbors, some stayed with friends, and yesterday, which was a day after the attack, the Kabul city which was normally full of people, there is lots of traffic jams, I went to the office and all the roads were clean, and there were fewer people walking around the streets, but today again, the life was kind of normal.

MAFTONBut in terms of the future, I personally expect more attacks by the Taliban, and like me there are millions of people who expect similar or even worse attacks by Taliban. Let me tell you one more thing. In the last ten years, the attack which occurred on Tuesday, that was the most terrifying attack since the fall of the Taliban region.

NNAMDIKhalid Mafton, thank you so much.

MAFTONThank you. Thank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIThat was Khalid Mafton, my Afghan co-host in Afghanistan. "The Kojo Nnamdi Show" is produced by Brendan Sweeney, Michael Martinez, Ingalisa Schrobsdorff and Tayla Burney. Diane Vogel is the managing producer.